IRC log of html-techs-tf on 2013-05-02
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 20:01:02 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-html-techs-tf-irc
- 20:01:42 [Zakim]
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- 20:01:59 [MichaelC]
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- 20:02:05 [jamesn]
- jamesn has changed the topic to: HTML5 & ARIA techniques for WCAG TF
- 20:02:34 [MichaelC]
- zakim, list conferences
- 20:02:34 [Zakim]
- I see Team_(eme)19:16Z, WAI_WCAG()4:00PM active
- 20:02:35 [Zakim]
- also scheduled at this time are WAI_(GALLERY)3:00PM, UW_POI(POIWG)4:00PM
- 20:02:42 [MichaelC]
- zakim, this is wai_wcag
- 20:02:42 [Zakim]
- ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_WCAG()4:00PM
- 20:02:43 [jamesn]
- zakim, this is WAI_WCAG
- 20:02:44 [Zakim]
- jamesn, this was already WAI_WCAG()4:00PM
- 20:02:44 [Zakim]
- ok, jamesn; that matches WAI_WCAG()4:00PM
- 20:02:50 [Zakim]
- +Cooper
- 20:03:11 [MichaelC]
- trackbot, associate this channel with #wai-wcag
- 20:03:11 [trackbot]
- Associated this channel with #wai-wcag.
- 20:05:00 [jamesn]
- regrets+ Marc_Johlic, Detlev_Fischer
- 20:05:13 [Zakim]
- +Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 20:07:11 [jamesn]
- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20130502tfaria/results
- 20:10:55 [Loretta]
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- 20:11:03 [Loretta]
- scribe:Loretta
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- Introductions all around.
- 20:13:30 [Loretta]
- James: suggest putting this in the not-needed-for-first-release category
- 20:13:51 [Loretta]
- James: focus on more important techniques for first release
- 20:14:40 [adam_solomon]
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- 20:14:56 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 20:15:13 [jamesn]
- zakim, IPcaller is Adam_Solomon
- 20:15:13 [Zakim]
- +Adam_Solomon; got it
- 20:15:22 [adam_solomon]
- great
- 20:15:33 [Loretta]
- Michael: changing category to "Techniques, Postponed" and moving this technique there.
- 20:16:14 [Loretta]
- Michael: updating status to capture pointer to these survey comments.
- 20:20:48 [Loretta]
- Topic: Using WAI-ARIA range attributes...
- 20:21:53 [Loretta]
- James editing description of how native spinbuttons work , for example 1.
- 20:23:00 [Loretta]
- Discussion of button mark-up including role=presentation and alt attribute.
- 20:23:11 [Loretta]
- Michael suggests omitting alt attribute.
- 20:23:30 [Loretta]
- James suggests alt="" and removing role presentation.
- 20:24:09 [Loretta]
- James: Who can activate these buttons?
- 20:24:53 [Loretta]
- Michael: there is no input field, so screen reader users will need to use buttons.
- 20:25:03 [Loretta]
- James: users should use up and down arrow keys.
- 20:25:10 [Loretta]
- Paul: will users know that?
- 20:25:54 [Loretta]
- Loretta: should we be using the Open Ajax example? Sounds like there are issues.
- 20:26:19 [Loretta]
- Should the user be able to type in the value? Or only up and down arrow keys.
- 20:26:56 [Loretta]
- Michael: something needs to change.
- 20:27:38 [Loretta]
- Michael: enabling the user to type a value isn't a requirement for a spinbutton, but do we want to show an example that doesn't do this?
- 20:28:35 [Loretta]
- Discussion of proposed changes....
- 20:30:21 [Loretta]
- Screen reader user can't use buttons, must use arrow keys.
- 20:31:50 [Loretta]
- Paul: trying a spin button with VoiceOver Utility app, Native control supports focus on control, not individual up and down buttons.
- 20:32:36 [Loretta]
- Michael: what is the point of the technique? range attributes
- 20:33:57 [Loretta]
- Michael: if want to talk about minimizing errors, it is a very different technique.
- 20:34:38 [Loretta]
- Michael: need to talk about why to use attributes from a WCAG perspective.
- 20:35:49 [Loretta]
- proposal: drop error usage of range attributes for later (only advisory anyway).
- 20:36:41 [Loretta]
- James: looking for better example of an aria spinbutton
- 20:37:31 [Loretta]
- paul: jquery mobile range sliders? they don't have up down buttons.
- 20:38:10 [Loretta]
- Loretta: alternative is that we write our own live example. But I can't do that.
- 20:40:01 [Loretta]
- Loretta: I'm leary of techniques for complete widgets.
- 20:40:31 [Loretta]
- James: the ARIA best practices document is looking for a new home.
- 20:41:38 [Loretta]
- Loretta: and I worry about whether, by providing one sample implementation of a widget, people conclude that is the only acceptable implementation.
- 20:43:55 [Loretta]
- Loretta: I'm fine with moving this to postponed. But because scripting is so intrinsic to the use of ARIA, I think this issue will keep recurring.
- 20:44:07 [Loretta]
- Paul: seems like we should make our own example.
- 20:44:14 [Loretta]
- James: yes, if we have the time.
- 20:44:52 [Loretta]
- james: can we host our own example at W3C?
- 20:45:02 [Loretta]
- Michael: yes, we already do this for other techniques.
- 20:45:20 [Loretta]
- Jamse: can we use libraries like jquery?
- 20:45:50 [Loretta]
- James: who has the code expertise to write their own live examples?
- 20:45:54 [Loretta]
- James: yes
- 20:46:02 [Loretta]
- Paul: maybe
- 20:46:29 [Loretta]
- Adam: I thought we didn't want to put all the details into the technique. Are we changing that?
- 20:46:58 [Loretta]
- James: I think our scripting would be simpler than open ajax.
- 20:47:47 [Loretta]
- Loretta: I still think that we need a complete live example, but only want to include the relevant snippets in the technique.
- 20:48:01 [Loretta]
- James: for this example, we should include the javascript for changing the value
- 20:48:33 [Loretta]
- James: Detlev could probably also write live examples.
- 20:49:19 [Loretta]
- James: need a strategy meeting for live examples. will put on the agenda for next week.
- 20:50:38 [Loretta]
- James: we will move this technique to the postponed section of the wiki
- 20:51:29 [Loretta]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Techniques/ARIA
- 20:51:33 [jamesn]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Techniques/ARIA
- 20:51:54 [Loretta]
- Agenda item: which SC does active-descendant meet?
- 20:52:12 [Loretta]
- Adam: does active-descendant apply to 2.1.1?
- 20:52:27 [MichaelC]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 20:52:27 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-html-techs-tf-minutes.html MichaelC
- 20:52:28 [Loretta]
- Adam: take example of combo-box.
- 20:52:52 [MichaelC]
- rrsagent, make log world
- 20:52:53 [Loretta]
- Adam: as you navigate through the list, the active-descendant is changing.
- 20:53:11 [MichaelC]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 20:53:11 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-html-techs-tf-minutes.html MichaelC
- 20:53:15 [Loretta]
- James: it is letting a screen reader know where the focus is, but it isn't letting the keyboard user know.
- 20:53:35 [Loretta]
- If you take out active-descendant, the combobox will still work for the keyboard user.
- 20:53:42 [Loretta]
- Adam: because of the scripting?
- 20:53:54 [Loretta]
- James: right.
- 20:54:06 [Loretta]
- James: and that is why we concluded that this was a 4.1.2 technique.
- 20:54:20 [Loretta]
- Adam: of course active-descendant isn't the true focus.
- 20:54:31 [Loretta]
- James: right, but it communicates it to the screen reader.
- 20:55:09 [MichaelC]
- meeting: HTML and ARIA Techniques Task Force
- 20:55:12 [MichaelC]
- chair: James_Nurthen
- 20:55:23 [Loretta]
- James: additional complication: CSS4 (not yet available in any browser) has a new feature that lets you meet focus-visible with active-descendant.
- 20:55:34 [MichaelC]
- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2013AprJun/0036.html
- 20:56:22 [Loretta]
- James: but this is in the future; spec'd but not in last call and not implemented anywhere yet. But it will be cool when it works.
- 20:56:38 [Loretta]
- Adam: can we conclude that active-descendant will only be for 4.1.2
- 20:56:54 [Loretta]
- James, Loretta, Paul: yes
- 20:57:22 [Loretta]
- Adam: do we wnat to take out the open ajax example? Ar we talking about removing all of them?
- 20:57:47 [Loretta]
- James: we don't have to take out all open ajax examples, only when we think they are confusing things (or if we can write our own really quickly)
- 20:58:23 [Loretta]
- Adam: I will tentatively leave the examples in, and the group can review whether they are suitable when the technique is ready for review.
- 20:58:35 [Loretta]
- James: this example seems less controversial.
- 20:59:27 [Loretta]
- Next week's agenda: finish this survey, handle the next survey, and discuss providing live examples.
- 20:59:42 [Zakim]
- -Adam_Solomon
- 20:59:50 [Zakim]
- -Cooper
- 20:59:52 [Zakim]
- -Paul_Adam
- 20:59:56 [jamesn]
- zakim, please part
- 20:59:56 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees were James_Nurthen, Paul_Adam, Cooper, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Adam_Solomon
- 20:59:56 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #html-techs-tf
- 21:00:18 [jamesn]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 21:00:18 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-html-techs-tf-minutes.html jamesn
- 21:02:19 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-html-techs-tf-minutes.html jamesn
- 21:02:36 [jamesn]
- http://www.w3.org/2013/05/02-html-techs-tf-minutes.html,text
- 21:03:42 [marcjohlic]
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- 21:03:58 [jamesn]
- rrsagent, please part
- 21:03:58 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items