14:40:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:40:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-forms-irc
14:40:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:40:06 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
14:40:08 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
14:40:08 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
14:40:09 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
14:40:09 <trackbot> Date: 17 April 2013
14:40:53 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Apr/0021
14:41:04 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Apr/0021
14:41:08 <Steven> Chair: Steven
14:41:13 <Steven> Regrets: Philip
15:02:54 <alain> alain has joined #forms
15:03:33 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
15:03:43 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
15:03:53 <Zakim> +??P28
15:04:25 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #forms
15:04:34 <Steven> zakim, I am ?
15:04:34 <Zakim> +Steven; got it
15:04:42 <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
15:04:42 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
15:04:53 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
15:05:23 <Zakim> +nvdbleek
15:05:41 <Zakim> +ebruchez
15:06:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:06:15 <alain> Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
15:06:16 <Zakim> ok, alain, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
15:09:34 <Steven> Topic: Next week
15:09:34 <Steven> Topic: Next week
15:10:14 <Steven> Steven: I'm sending regrets, for the W3C Open Data workshop
15:10:45 <Steven> Nick: I'm at a FtF in the US
15:10:52 <Steven> Steven: Shall we cancel next week then?
15:11:02 <nvdbleek> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:11:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Steven, nvdbleek, ebruchez, [IPcaller]
15:11:05 <Steven> [agreement]
15:12:02 <Steven> Topic: Concerns about format token parameter on serialize() and parse()
15:12:02 <Steven> functions
15:12:02 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Apr/0017.html
15:12:02 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Nov/0012.html
15:14:12 <Steven> Erik: [describes the problem, as in the mail]
15:14:26 <Steven> ... Saxon serialisation can take XSL <output>
15:14:53 <Steven> ... XPath 3 is similar, but with nested elements in <output>; rather ugly, but the same dea of using indirection.
15:15:10 <Steven> ... if e just need name/value pairs, then it doesn't really matter what we use.
15:15:19 <Steven> s/ e // we /
15:16:26 <Steven> ... one thing to be aware of, when passing to a function, an element or an attribute, we can only pass something in isnatnce data
15:16:45 <Steven> ... we can't pass a submission element except by ID.
15:17:23 <Steven> ... ... You might have to create a special instane
15:17:32 <Steven> ... that's method 1.
15:18:07 <Steven> Erik: Method 2, is closer to Steven's proposal, using any element in theory.
15:18:37 <Steven> ... the problem with a submission element is that the spec requires certain fields
15:18:59 <Steven> ... which is a problem because we don't need them in this case.
15:19:42 <Steven> q+
15:20:01 <Steven> ... or we change the defn of the submission element
15:20:21 <Steven> ... which makes it then useless for <send>
15:20:44 <Steven> ... which makes run-time changes, to deal with when they are missing
15:21:33 <Steven> ... so we could say that we use any element, which might be a <submission/>, but also other elements, inside or outside an instance
15:21:52 <Steven> Nick: XForms expressions can't reference nodes outside an instance
15:22:02 <Steven> Erik: It can if you use an ID
15:22:25 <ebruchez> "The schema list may include URI fragments referring to elements located outside the current model elsewhere in the containing document; e.g. "#myschema". xs:schema elements located inside the current model need not be listed."
15:22:29 <Steven> Nick: This would be the first time that an XPath expression needs access to stuff outside the instance
15:22:44 <Steven> Erik: See above quote
15:23:05 <Steven> ... there are earlier examples
15:24:29 <Steven> ... Imagine a browser-side implementation, you don't need to use XPath in the implementation
15:24:41 <Steven> Nick: But the ID resolution scope is different
15:25:07 <Steven> Erik: We already have that, <togglem .../> for instance
15:25:16 <Steven> s/toggle/toggle/
15:25:25 <Steven> s/togglem/toggle/
15:25:42 <Steven> s/isnatnce/instance/
15:26:04 <Steven> Erik: The id function isn't being use, it is a string
15:26:38 <Steven> ... are there really no other examples of XPath functions using an ID? Our implementation has several
15:27:03 <Steven> q-
15:27:35 <Steven> ... with that method you could write this:
15:27:39 <ebruchez> serialize(., id('foo'))
15:28:05 <ebruchez> serialize(., 'foo')
15:28:22 <Steven> ... I'm not a super fan of this time of overloading
15:28:29 <Steven> s/time/type/
15:29:29 <Steven> Nick: Confusing for users, since sometimes we do an extra resolution.
15:29:59 <Steven> Erik: Not sure I understand.
15:30:36 <Steven> Nick: [breaks up]
15:31:02 <nvdbleek> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms-xpath/#The_id.28.29_Function
15:31:22 <Steven> Nick: The first arg can be a seq of nodes
15:31:53 <Steven> Erik: But that's deprecated; we say to use ID
15:32:00 <nvdbleek> This may be in the form of a string containing a space-separated list of IDREFs or a sequence of nodes, each node of which contains an IDREF.
15:32:38 <Steven> Erik: That is an example of a function that can take a string or an element. Is it wise? Do we want one way or multiple ways?
15:33:29 <Steven> ... Sometimes you want to change the values; but conversely it is annoying to have to create an instance for static values.
15:34:10 <Steven> ... but on the other hand it's not that much extra convenience
15:35:03 <ebruchez> Here is the xf:case() function: http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms-xpath/#fn-case which takes a switch id
15:35:34 <Steven> Steven: I'm veering towards the instance solution
15:35:59 <Steven> Erik: We only need the attributes in that case.
15:36:28 <Steven> ... this would make the second parameter being an XPath expression for an element
15:36:46 <ebruchez> 2. serialize($arg as item()*, $params as element()) (: point to
15:36:47 <ebruchez> element and use its attributes :)
15:36:52 <ebruchez> 2. serialize($arg as item()*, $params as element()) (: point to element and use its attributes :)
15:37:25 <Steven> Erik: That would eb the simplest as far as function signature is concerned
15:37:37 <Steven> s/eb/be/
15:37:46 <ebruchez> fn:serialize($arg as item()*, $params	 as element(output:serialization-parameters)?) as xs:string
15:37:51 <ebruchez> that's XPath 3's
15:38:03 <Steven> Erik: That is the XPath 3 signature, which is very similar
15:38:47 <Steven> ... I think this supports something that is more complicated/richer
15:38:55 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt-xquery-serialization-30/#serparams-in-xdm-instance
15:39:09 <Steven> Erik: They use elements, not attributes.
15:39:28 <Steven> ... which is really heavy
15:39:38 <Steven> ... I don't know why they did this
15:40:01 <Steven> ACTION: Erik investigate why XPath 3 chose the function signature they did for serialization
15:40:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1943 - Investigate why XPath 3 chose the function signature they did for serialization [on Erik Bruchez - due 2013-04-24].
15:40:41 <Steven> ACTION-1943, due 2013-05-01
15:40:57 <Steven> action-1943?
15:40:57 <trackbot> ACTION-1943 -- Erik Bruchez to investigate why XPath 3 chose the function signature they did for serialization -- due 2013-04-24 -- OPEN
15:40:57 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/xforms/actions/1943
15:41:46 <Steven> Erik: So this seems like a good solution; is there anything we need to look at in XPath 3? Is it overkill? I will look.
15:42:03 <nvdbleek> action-83 due 1 May 2013
15:42:04 <trackbot> Set ACTION-83 MarkB and Raman to resurrect custom control document in time for Technical Plenary (replace previous action item) due date to 1 May 2013.
15:42:08 <Steven> action-1943, due 2013-05-01
15:42:25 <nvdbleek> action-1943, due 1 May 2013
15:42:43 <nvdbleek> action-1943 due 1 May 2013
15:42:43 <trackbot> Set ACTION-1943 Investigate why XPath 3 chose the function signature they did for serialization due date to 1 May 2013.
15:42:52 <Steven> action-1943 due 2013-05-01
15:42:52 <trackbot> Set ACTION-1943 Investigate why XPath 3 chose the function signature they did for serialization due date to 2013-05-01.
15:43:40 <Steven> Steven: So we keep this on the agenda until Erik has completed his XPath 3 investigations
15:44:13 <Steven> Topic: ACTION-1932: Erik to edit the spec for load/@show and @target
15:44:13 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Apr/0004.html
15:44:13 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Apr/0001.html
15:44:13 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Mar/0020.html
15:45:02 <Steven> Steven: No one sent comments, so I think we're OK.
15:45:53 <Steven> Topic: [ACTION-1934] Completed (Update the XML and relax-ng schema (change
15:45:53 <Steven> mediatype to accept on upload))
15:45:53 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Apr/0006.html
15:46:12 <Steven> Steven: This is done?
15:46:38 <Steven> Nick: Done
15:46:40 <nvdbleek> ACTION-1939, closed
15:46:46 <Steven> close action-1932
15:46:46 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-1932 Suggest text spec for target keywords referring to host language..
15:48:01 <Steven> Topic: ACTION-1939: Add the xforms:HTMLFragment data type and add text to
15:48:01 <Steven> the text area control similar like it is done for xs:date on xf:input
15:48:01 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Apr/0007.html
15:48:13 <nvdbleek> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Apr/0007.html
15:48:22 <nvdbleek> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/index.php?title=XForms_2.0&diff=3791&oldid=3789
15:48:41 <Steven> Steven: Nick's diff http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/index.php?title=XForms_2.0&diff=3791&oldid=3789
15:49:28 <Steven> Steven: Any comments?
15:49:53 <Steven> Erik: I didn't have time to review it. Need more time.
15:50:06 <Steven> Steven: OK, keep on agenda for next time.
15:50:41 <Steven> Topic: The function Element
15:50:41 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Mar/0018.html
15:50:41 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Mar/0019.html
15:50:41 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Jan/0028.html
15:50:49 <Steven> Erik: Sorry, I didn't do that either
15:50:58 <Steven> Steven: Well, now you have two more weeks :-)
15:52:12 <Steven> Nick: Can we finish all topics so we can publish?
15:52:21 <Steven> Steven: If people do their reviews :-)
15:52:26 <Steven> Nich: We're getting there
15:52:33 <Steven> s/Nich/Nick/
15:52:41 <Steven> Topic: Next Call
15:52:51 <Steven> Steven: Next week is cancelled, next call is 1 May.
15:53:00 <Zakim> -Steven
15:53:02 <Zakim> -ebruchez
15:53:04 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:53:04 <Zakim> -nvdbleek
15:53:04 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
15:53:04 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven, nvdbleek, ebruchez, [IPcaller]
15:53:11 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:53:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:53:37 <alain> alain has left #forms
15:53:40 <Steven> Present+Alain
15:53:42 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:53:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/17-forms-minutes.html Steven
17:34:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #forms