<sandro> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group F2F1 (Day 2)
<sandro> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Day_2_-_November_2nd
<sandro> Guest: Ivan Herman, W3C
<sandro> Guest: Jonathan Dray
<cygri> guest: Fabien Gandon
<cygri> guest: Tim (timbl) Berners-Lee
<sandro> guest: Nathan (webr3) Rixham
<sandro> Guest: Melvin (melvster) Carvalho
<sandro> Present: Eric, Sandro, Raúl, Nandana, Cygri, Steves, Bart, Kevin, Alexandre, Arnaud, Ashok, Henry, Serena, Olivier, Antonis, Armin, SteveB
<sandro> Around the table: TimBL, Eric, Ivan, Sandro, Raúl, Nandana, Cygri, Steves, Bart, Kevin, Alexandre, Arnaud, Ashok, Henry, ?, Fabien, Serena, Olivier, Jonathan, Antonis, Armin, SteveB
Sandro Hawke: Around the table: TimBL, Eric, Ivan, Sandro, Raúl, Nandana, Cygri, Steves, Bart, Kevin, Alexandre, Arnaud, Ashok, Henry, ?, Fabien, Serena, Olivier, Jonathan, Antonis, Armin, SteveB ←
<sandro> Remote: Yves, Arwe, AndyS
07:58:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-irc ←
07:58:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
07:58:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be LDP ←
07:58:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()2:30AM scheduled to start 88 minutes ago
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()2:30AM scheduled to start 88 minutes ago ←
07:58:23 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
07:58:23 <trackbot> Date: 02 November 2012
08:03:58 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, who's on the phone? ←
08:03:58 <Zakim> SW_LDP()2:30AM has not yet started, Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()2:30AM has not yet started, Arnaud ←
08:03:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see jonathandray, Zakim, RRSAgent, antonis, Arnaud, SteveS, BartvanLeeuwen, LeeF, trackbot, tpacbot, webr3, Yves, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see jonathandray, Zakim, RRSAgent, antonis, Arnaud, SteveS, BartvanLeeuwen, LeeF, trackbot, tpacbot, webr3, Yves, sandro, ericP ←
08:05:39 <sandro> Zakim, call Saint_Claire_3b
Sandro Hawke: Zakim, call Saint_Claire_3b ←
08:05:39 <Zakim> I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for Saint_Claire_3b
Zakim IRC Bot: I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for Saint_Claire_3b ←
08:05:43 <sandro> Zakim, call SaintClaire_3b
Sandro Hawke: Zakim, call SaintClaire_3b ←
08:05:43 <Zakim> I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for SaintClaire_3b
Zakim IRC Bot: I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for SaintClaire_3b ←
08:05:47 <sandro> Zakim, call SaintClaire3b
Sandro Hawke: Zakim, call SaintClaire3b ←
08:05:47 <Zakim> I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for SaintClaire3b
Zakim IRC Bot: I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for SaintClaire3b ←
08:05:53 <sandro> Zakim, call SaintClaire3B
Sandro Hawke: Zakim, call SaintClaire3B ←
08:05:53 <Zakim> I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for SaintClaire3B
Zakim IRC Bot: I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for SaintClaire3B ←
08:05:57 <sandro> Zakim, call Saint_Claire3B
Sandro Hawke: Zakim, call Saint_Claire3B ←
08:05:57 <Zakim> I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for Saint_Claire3B
Zakim IRC Bot: I am sorry, sandro; I do not know a number for Saint_Claire3B ←
08:06:31 <sandro> zakim, call St_Clair_3B
Sandro Hawke: zakim, call St_Clair_3B ←
08:06:31 <Zakim> ok, sandro; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; the call is being made ←
08:06:32 <Zakim> SW_LDP()2:30AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()2:30AM has now started ←
08:06:33 <Zakim> +St_Clair_3B
Zakim IRC Bot: +St_Clair_3B ←
08:07:06 <Zakim> -St_Clair_3B
Zakim IRC Bot: -St_Clair_3B ←
08:07:07 <Zakim> SW_LDP()2:30AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()2:30AM has ended ←
08:07:07 <Zakim> Attendees were St_Clair_3B
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were St_Clair_3B ←
08:07:31 <sandro> zakim, call St_Clair_3B
Sandro Hawke: zakim, call St_Clair_3B ←
08:07:31 <Zakim> ok, sandro; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; the call is being made ←
08:07:32 <Zakim> SW_LDP()2:30AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()2:30AM has now started ←
08:07:32 <Zakim> +St_Clair_3B
Zakim IRC Bot: +St_Clair_3B ←
08:11:46 <oberger> Arnaud: added the primer to the agenda for this afternoon
Arnaud Le Hors: added the primer to the agenda for this afternoon [ Scribe Assist by Olivier Berger ] ←
08:12:46 <krp> Arnaud: yesterday first f2f, ramping up, but feedback to try and speed up discussions
Arnaud Le Hors: yesterday first f2f, ramping up, but feedback to try and speed up discussions [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:13:26 <krp> ... status quo is the spec as is
Kevin Page: ... status quo is the spec as is ←
08:13:48 <krp> ... burden is on those who have issue with spec to explain what that is
Kevin Page: ... burden is on those who have issue with spec to explain what that is ←
08:14:29 <krp> ... discussion centred around: 1. what the problems is (ensuring everyone understands it) 2. how to solve it (proposals)
Kevin Page: ... discussion centred around: 1. what the problems is (ensuring everyone understands it) 2. how to solve it (proposals) ←
08:15:48 <krp> ... make sure we are talking about a specific problem and specific problem rather than debating in the round
Kevin Page: ... make sure we are talking about a specific problem and specific problem rather than debating in the round ←
08:15:49 <oberger> btw, http://bikeshed.org/ for those who don't know
Olivier Berger: btw, http://bikeshed.org/ for those who don't know ←
08:16:34 <krp> ... all exercise some self discipline... don't repeat what others have already say... remove yourself from queue if this happens... then we'll straw poll
Kevin Page: ... all exercise some self discipline... don't repeat what others have already say... remove yourself from queue if this happens... then we'll straw poll ←
08:16:45 <Arnaud> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
08:17:13 <krp> oberger: we can only discuss issues where the person who raised it is present?
Olivier Berger: we can only discuss issues where the person who raised it is present? [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:18:02 <krp> arnaud: if no one present can defend the position we should just skip it. but e.g. yesterday others managed to represent the view
Arnaud Le Hors: if no one present can defend the position we should just skip it. but e.g. yesterday others managed to represent the view [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:18:12 <krp> TOPIC: Access control
08:18:20 <oberger> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/charter
Olivier Berger: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/charter ←
08:18:42 <sandro> " The Working Group will not produce a Recommendation specifying solutions for access control and authentication for Linked Data. However the Working Group may identify, based on a set of real world use cases, requirements for authentication and authorization technologies for use with Linked Data. " -- the charter
Sandro Hawke: " The Working Group will not produce a Recommendation specifying solutions for access control and authentication for Linked Data. However the Working Group may identify, based on a set of real world use cases, requirements for authentication and authorization technologies for use with Linked Data. " -- the charter ←
08:19:32 <krp> arnaud: when discussing charter two positions: shouldn't do access control as it's a bigger problem; or that how could we not consider the topic
Arnaud Le Hors: when discussing charter two positions: shouldn't do access control as it's a bigger problem; or that how could we not consider the topic [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:19:33 <bblfish> he said it depends...
08:19:42 <betehess> s/he said it depends...//
08:20:07 <krp> ... compromise in the charter: a note. Need to figure out what will be in it, who will be editors
Kevin Page: ... compromise in the charter: a note. Need to figure out what will be in it, who will be editors ←
08:20:14 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
08:20:18 <krp> ... we need to define what we want to do
Kevin Page: ... we need to define what we want to do ←
08:20:22 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
08:20:26 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
08:20:54 <krp> bblfish: identify those interested in distributed access control. I wish to implement this... who else?
Henry Story: identify those interested in distributed access control. I wish to implement this... who else? [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:21:12 <Arnaud> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
08:21:28 <FabGandon> Present+FabGandon
Fabien Gandon: Present+FabGandon ←
08:21:56 <SteveBattle> q+
Steve Battle: q+ ←
08:21:59 <sandro> q+ to talk about W3C member-access as a user story
Sandro Hawke: q+ to talk about W3C member-access as a user story ←
08:22:23 <Arnaud> ack steveb
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steveb ←
08:22:23 <krp> betehess: first access control, then distributed access control. Need to split the issues. Identity, authorisation. Don't want to do anything on auth?
Alexandre Bertails: first access control, then distributed access control. Need to split the issues. Identity, authorisation. Don't want to do anything on auth? [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:22:36 <sandro> betehess, I think this is 100% about authorization
Sandro Hawke: betehess, I think this is 100% about authorization ←
08:22:44 <krp> stevebattle: is there anything in the spec incompatible with ACLs etc.?
Steve Battle: is there anything in the spec incompatible with ACLs etc.? [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:22:44 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+
Ashok Malhotra: q+ ←
08:22:49 <bblfish> here is an interesting thing: http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl
Henry Story: here is an interesting thing: http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl ←
08:22:58 <nmihindu> present+ Nandana_Mihindukulasooriya
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: present+ Nandana_Mihindukulasooriya ←
08:23:10 <Arnaud> ack sandro
Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro ←
08:23:10 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to talk about W3C member-access as a user story
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to talk about W3C member-access as a user story ←
08:23:12 <bblfish> that is what betehess means by WebACL
Henry Story: that is what betehess means by WebACL ←
08:23:19 <BartvanLeeuwen> present+ BartvanLeeuwen
Bart van Leeuwen: present+ BartvanLeeuwen ←
08:23:23 <krp> betehess: so far nothing in spec. For WebACL just need to provide ontologies.
Alexandre Bertails: so far nothing in spec. For WebACL just need to provide ontologies. [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:23:41 <antonis> present+ AntonisLoizou
Antonis Loizou: present+ AntonisLoizou ←
08:23:54 <rgarcia> present+ Raul_Garcia-Castro
Raúl García Castro: present+ Raul_Garcia-Castro ←
08:24:10 <bblfish> +1 there is a requirement for a distributed authentication
Henry Story: +1 there is a requirement for a distributed authentication ←
08:24:14 <krp> sandro: W3C member access control... get to say employees of members to access parts of W3C site... this could be use case for LDP, delegating the access to member orgs
Sandro Hawke: W3C member access control... get to say employees of members to access parts of W3C site... this could be use case for LDP, delegating the access to member orgs [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:24:14 <oberger> sandro, would you add it to the UCR ?
Olivier Berger: sandro, would you add it to the UCR ? ←
08:24:16 <svillata> present+ Serena Villata
Serena Villata: present+ Serena Villata ←
08:24:18 <Arnaud> ack ashok
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok ←
08:24:18 <jonathandray> present+ Jonathan_Dray
Jonathan Dray: present+ Jonathan_Dray ←
08:24:22 <betehess> sandro, that use-case is definitely what people call "decentralized" here
Alexandre Bertails: sandro, that use-case is definitely what people call "decentralized" here ←
08:24:29 <oberger> present+Olivier_Berger
Olivier Berger: present+Olivier_Berger ←
08:24:37 <SteveS> present+ Steve_Speicher
Steve Speicher: present+ Steve_Speicher ←
08:24:39 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
08:24:40 <oberger> present+ Olivier_Berger
Olivier Berger: present+ Olivier_Berger ←
08:24:45 <cygri> present+ Richard Cyganiak
Richard Cyganiak: present+ Richard Cyganiak ←
08:25:09 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
08:25:11 <sandro> present+ Sandro Hawke
Sandro Hawke: present+ Sandro Hawke ←
08:25:17 <SteveS> sandro, good use case should it be added to issue tracker or in minutes enough?
Steve Speicher: sandro, good use case should it be added to issue tracker or in minutes enough? ←
08:25:18 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
08:25:22 <betehess> present+ Alexandre_Bertails
Alexandre Bertails: present+ Alexandre_Bertails ←
08:25:39 <krp> ashok: typically access control is based on underlying storage engine. I can help edit.
Ashok Malhotra: typically access control is based on underlying storage engine. I can help edit. [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:25:54 <svillata> q?
Serena Villata: q? ←
08:26:27 <sandro> q+ to ask about possible requirement -- do resources have different representations for different-access users?
Sandro Hawke: q+ to ask about possible requirement -- do resources have different representations for different-access users? ←
08:26:27 <oberger> q+
Olivier Berger: q+ ←
08:26:30 <krp> bblfish: at the RESTful layer need to expose the metadata... the ACLs for a file... the identity needs to be global for an LDP system that is global and interoperable, automatically distributing
Henry Story: at the RESTful layer need to expose the metadata... the ACLs for a file... the identity needs to be global for an LDP system that is global and interoperable, automatically distributing [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:26:36 <Arnaud> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
08:26:42 <betehess> http://presbrey.mit.edu/
Alexandre Bertails: http://presbrey.mit.edu/ ←
08:27:12 <bblfish> presbrey built http://data.fm/
Henry Story: presbrey built http://data.fm/ ←
08:27:22 <krp> betehess: let's be concrete (see link)... first implementation of linked data server... let's start by reviewing this
Alexandre Bertails: let's be concrete (see link)... first implementation of linked data server... let's start by reviewing this [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:27:45 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
08:27:48 <Zakim> +Yves
Zakim IRC Bot: +Yves ←
08:28:17 <Arnaud> ack sandro
Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro ←
08:28:17 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask about possible requirement -- do resources have different representations for different-access users?
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to ask about possible requirement -- do resources have different representations for different-access users? ←
08:28:33 <krp> arnaud: to clarify, we're not going to develop a spec that solves this problem. but want to know what people think. create a wiki page for this to develop the ucr for this.
Arnaud Le Hors: to clarify, we're not going to develop a spec that solves this problem. but want to know what people think. create a wiki page for this to develop the ucr for this. [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:29:30 <Arnaud> ack oberger
Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger ←
08:29:31 <krp> sandro: do you want to get different triples dependent on who you are identified as? Is there consensus to this approach? Can we clarify when this is reasonable to do?
Sandro Hawke: do you want to get different triples dependent on who you are identified as? Is there consensus to this approach? Can we clarify when this is reasonable to do? [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:29:44 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
08:29:48 <krp> oberger: are people interested in oauth? is there anything to say about it?
Olivier Berger: are people interested in oauth? is there anything to say about it? [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:29:58 <betehess> q+ to comment on other technologies
Alexandre Bertails: q+ to comment on other technologies ←
08:30:05 <Arnaud> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
08:30:07 <krp> ... it can delegate tokens to applications to do things on you behalf
Kevin Page: ... it can delegate tokens to applications to do things on you behalf ←
08:30:48 <oberger> oberger: interesting use case : delegating "tokens" to apps to act on your behalf, in oauth
Olivier Berger: interesting use case : delegating "tokens" to apps to act on your behalf, in oauth [ Scribe Assist by Olivier Berger ] ←
08:31:06 <krp> cygri: as someone who would like a ready-made solution that I'd like to take of the shelf... most useful in the note for me would be use case and requirements
Richard Cyganiak: as someone who would like a ready-made solution that I'd like to take of the shelf... most useful in the note for me would be use case and requirements [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:31:25 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
08:31:49 <oberger> sandro, I think the point you raised is interesting to the group indeed
Olivier Berger: sandro, I think the point you raised is interesting to the group indeed ←
08:31:54 <krp> ... vs. we can't recommend particular tech anyway, so a laundry list of different technologies doesn't seem to be what we're chartered to do
Kevin Page: ... vs. we can't recommend particular tech anyway, so a laundry list of different technologies doesn't seem to be what we're chartered to do ←
08:31:55 <bblfish> Cygri, is right. 0ne does not need to list all the technologies up. There are parts that remain open.
Henry Story: Cygri, is right. 0ne does not need to list all the technologies up. There are parts that remain open. ←
08:32:11 <oberger> sandro, worth an issue ?
Olivier Berger: sandro, worth an issue ? ←
08:32:25 <Arnaud> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
08:32:25 <Zakim> betehess, you wanted to comment on other technologies
Zakim IRC Bot: betehess, you wanted to comment on other technologies ←
08:32:34 <krp> arnaud: per the charter, it ought to be ucr. however, if there are those in the group who are interested, don't want to stop that... as long as it doesn't get in the way of the ucr
Arnaud Le Hors: per the charter, it ought to be ucr. however, if there are those in the group who are interested, don't want to stop that... as long as it doesn't get in the way of the ucr [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:33:43 <ericP> q?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q? ←
08:34:02 <krp> betehess: if you tell people the note will just be about listing stuff it will be a waste of time... so maybe better not to make a note? what happens if someone comes with a specific proposal, do we turn away?
Alexandre Bertails: if you tell people the note will just be about listing stuff it will be a waste of time... so maybe better not to make a note? what happens if someone comes with a specific proposal, do we turn away? [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:34:15 <krp> arnaud: not here to revisit charter
Arnaud Le Hors: not here to revisit charter [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:34:37 <krp> ... the question is not whether we should do it (the note)
Kevin Page: ... the question is not whether we should do it (the note) ←
08:34:47 <BartvanLeeuwen> q+
Bart van Leeuwen: q+ ←
08:35:25 <betehess> does "Deliverables - Not Recommendation Track" even mean that we need to deliver a NOTE? whyh not just a wiki page?
Alexandre Bertails: does "Deliverables - Not Recommendation Track" even mean that we need to deliver a NOTE? whyh not just a wiki page? ←
08:35:32 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
08:35:38 <oberger> betehess, it's too soon to discuss that IMHO
Olivier Berger: betehess, it's too soon to discuss that IMHO ←
08:35:55 <oberger> let's see UC and needs of the group more explicited
Olivier Berger: let's see UC and needs of the group more explicited ←
08:35:57 <krp> ... but implementers need to know how to solve this... see this as a starting point to define the problem... leading to solutions and maybe, eventually, a later process for a recommendation
Kevin Page: ... but implementers need to know how to solve this... see this as a starting point to define the problem... leading to solutions and maybe, eventually, a later process for a recommendation ←
08:36:04 <cygri> betehess, oberger, the charter clearly says "Working Group Note on Use Cases and Requirements for access control and authentication mechanisms needed for this work."
Richard Cyganiak: betehess, oberger, the charter clearly says "Working Group Note on Use Cases and Requirements for access control and authentication mechanisms needed for this work." ←
08:36:20 <oberger> cygri, ack
Olivier Berger: cygri, ack ←
08:36:32 <cygri> betehess, oberger, whether that's a good thing or not, i don't know :-)
Richard Cyganiak: betehess, oberger, whether that's a good thing or not, i don't know :-) ←
08:36:47 <oberger> cygri, we'll see while doing
Olivier Berger: cygri, we'll see while doing ←
08:37:00 <betehess> cygri, yeah, just saw that (I wasn't the one who added that in the charter :-)
Alexandre Bertails: cygri, yeah, just saw that (I wasn't the one who added that in the charter :-) ←
08:37:01 <Arnaud> ack bart
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bart ←
08:37:06 <krp> bblfish: in order to test interop we'll need to have something there. but don't need to fully dive into the "identity pit hole of hell" to do this. but we need to have something there to get acceptance from gov etc.
Henry Story: in order to test interop we'll need to have something there. but don't need to fully dive into the "identity pit hole of hell" to do this. but we need to have something there to get acceptance from gov etc. [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:37:50 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
08:38:18 <krp> bart: discussing things that potentially could go wrong with spec. why don't we have implementers trying this to find the problems? does this make it easier to spot the issues rather than discussing all possible issues
Bart van Leeuwen: discussing things that potentially could go wrong with spec. why don't we have implementers trying this to find the problems? does this make it easier to spot the issues rather than discussing all possible issues [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:38:18 <Arnaud> ack steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves ←
08:38:42 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
08:39:05 <krp> steves: not sure what we need to standardise to grant access to individuals, we can do that today in several different ways, do we need to standardise?
Steve Speicher: not sure what we need to standardise to grant access to individuals, we can do that today in several different ways, do we need to standardise? [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:39:07 <cygri> SteveS++
Richard Cyganiak: SteveS++ ←
08:39:17 <Arnaud> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
08:39:20 <timbl_> RRSAgent, pointer?
Tim Berners-Lee: RRSAgent, pointer? ←
08:39:20 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-irc#T08-39-20
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-irc#T08-39-20 ←
08:39:21 <krp> ... seems like we should get the wiki page up to start getting input
Kevin Page: ... seems like we should get the wiki page up to start getting input ←
08:40:26 <krp> betehess: for many people the success of ldp will be including some standardisation for problems like access control so that it comes with ldp
Alexandre Bertails: for many people the success of ldp will be including some standardisation for problems like access control so that it comes with ldp [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:40:54 <krp> steves: not saying isn't useful to standardise
Steve Speicher: not saying isn't useful to standardise [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:41:13 <Arnaud> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
08:41:15 <timbl_> q+ to suggest that the art of launching th system is about both having a clean consistent vision and also connecting it to th existing things people are now using.
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ to suggest that the art of launching th system is about both having a clean consistent vision and also connecting it to th existing things people are now using. ←
08:41:21 <krp> arnaud: whole point of note is to gather this information: what to you need from access control?
Arnaud Le Hors: whole point of note is to gather this information: what to you need from access control? [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:41:28 <Arnaud> ack timbl
Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl ←
08:41:28 <Zakim> timbl_, you wanted to suggest that the art of launching th system is about both having a clean consistent vision and also connecting it to th existing things people are now using.
Zakim IRC Bot: timbl_, you wanted to suggest that the art of launching th system is about both having a clean consistent vision and also connecting it to th existing things people are now using. ←
08:42:42 <bblfish> Arnaud: note is a way to gather information together about what people would like to do
Arnaud Le Hors: note is a way to gather information together about what people would like to do [ Scribe Assist by Henry Story ] ←
08:42:46 <krp> timbl: to get system off the ground needs clear consistent system, but also bringing in those who are tied into existing systems so they will accept future solution. in ideal world finding a clear conversion from existing sys to rdf would be nice.
Tim Berners-Lee: to get system off the ground needs clear consistent system, but also bringing in those who are tied into existing systems so they will accept future solution. in ideal world finding a clear conversion from existing sys to rdf would be nice. [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:43:40 <SteveS> Think access control is important to success of LDP in long term, just not sure a minimal requirement….impls will impose access restrictions regardless of what we say
Steve Speicher: Think access control is important to success of LDP in long term, just not sure a minimal requirement….impls will impose access restrictions regardless of what we say ←
08:43:51 <cygri> ACTION: Ashok_Malhotra to set up wiki page on Access Control
ACTION: Ashok_Malhotra to set up wiki page on Access Control ←
08:43:51 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find Ashok_Malhotra. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/users>.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find Ashok_Malhotra. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/users>. ←
08:43:56 <krp> arnaud: ashok to create and structure wiki page to gather use cases and requirements
Arnaud Le Hors: ashok to create and structure wiki page to gather use cases and requirements [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:44:04 <cygri> ACTION: Ashok to set up wiki page on Access Control
ACTION: Ashok to set up wiki page on Access Control ←
08:44:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-21 - Set up wiki page on Access Control [on Ashok Malhotra - due 2012-11-09].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-21 - Set up wiki page on Access Control [on Ashok Malhotra - due 2012-11-09]. ←
08:44:23 <bblfish> +1
Henry Story: +1 ←
08:44:25 <Arnaud> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
08:44:26 <krp> ... everyone add your ucr, please check whether there's already something there... modify/add rather than duplicate
Kevin Page: ... everyone add your ucr, please check whether there's already something there... modify/add rather than duplicate ←
08:44:27 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
08:44:30 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
08:44:43 <ericP> Ashok_Malhotra, i already started by dropping an example into http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/AccessControl
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Ashok_Malhotra, i already started by dropping an example into http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/AccessControl ←
08:44:46 <krp> ... a reasonable approach?
Kevin Page: ... a reasonable approach? ←
08:45:05 <ericP> i can continue with a couple others
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i can continue with a couple others ←
08:45:19 <krp> ... I think that's all we need to do on this today
Kevin Page: ... I think that's all we need to do on this today ←
08:45:55 <timbl_> http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl
Tim Berners-Lee: http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl ←
08:46:17 <krp> ericP: already have a starting page in place http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl
Eric Prud'hommeaux: already have a starting page in place http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:46:38 <oberger> ericP, could you explicit the syntax of the example ?
Olivier Berger: ericP, could you explicit the syntax of the example ? ←
08:47:17 <krp> ashok: what does this syntax mean?
Ashok Malhotra: what does this syntax mean? [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:47:32 <krp> arnaud: eric, could you give more explanation of this example?
Arnaud Le Hors: eric, could you give more explanation of this example? [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:49:00 <krp> arnaud: call for which issues to discuss and defend
Arnaud Le Hors: call for which issues to discuss and defend [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:49:14 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
08:49:18 <krp> TOPIC: ISSUE-25
08:49:31 <bblfish> Issue-25?
08:49:31 <trackbot> ISSUE-25 -- Weak aggregation and strong composition in containers -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-25 -- Weak aggregation and strong composition in containers -- open ←
08:49:31 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/25
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/25 ←
08:49:31 <cygri> ISSUE-25?
08:49:31 <trackbot> ISSUE-25 -- Weak aggregation and strong composition in containers -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-25 -- Weak aggregation and strong composition in containers -- open ←
08:49:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/25
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/25 ←
08:49:43 <cygri> q-
Richard Cyganiak: q- ←
08:51:12 <krp> stevebattle: ldp spec introduces issue of containers. when you think about these you'd normally consider the strength of these. aggregation is weak with a focus on membership, composition is stronger and considers the lifecycle e.g. deleting resource when container is deleted
Steve Battle: ldp spec introduces issue of containers. when you think about these you'd normally consider the strength of these. aggregation is weak with a focus on membership, composition is stronger and considers the lifecycle e.g. deleting resource when container is deleted [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:52:12 <krp> oberger: addition of something to container would be a good subject to consider this
Olivier Berger: addition of something to container would be a good subject to consider this [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:52:25 <krp> arnaud: Steve, do you have a proposal as how to modify spec?
Arnaud Le Hors: Steve, do you have a proposal as how to modify spec? [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:53:01 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+
Ashok Malhotra: q+ ←
08:53:05 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
08:53:07 <krp> stevebattle: proposal is to use hierarchical URIs to represent containment
Steve Battle: proposal is to use hierarchical URIs to represent containment [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:53:24 <oberger> q+
Olivier Berger: q+ ←
08:54:26 <krp> arnaud: aggregation vs. composition, but the spec isn't clear? do you want it to do one or the other?
Arnaud Le Hors: aggregation vs. composition, but the spec isn't clear? do you want it to do one or the other? [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:54:49 <krp> stevebattle: to do both but be clear when it is doing which
Steve Battle: to do both but be clear when it is doing which [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:55:46 <krp> q+
Kevin Page: q+ ←
08:55:57 <Arnaud> ack ashok
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok ←
08:55:58 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
08:56:13 <Arnaud> ack steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves ←
08:56:27 <krp> ashok: when you add a container to a container is it hierarchical?
Ashok Malhotra: when you add a container to a container is it hierarchical? [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:56:31 <krp> stevebattle: yes
Steve Battle: yes [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:57:44 <krp> steves: not sure how the uri structure is related to containment, not sure the spec should specify uri structure.
Steve Speicher: not sure how the uri structure is related to containment, not sure the spec should specify uri structure. [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:57:48 <Arnaud> ack oberger
Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger ←
08:58:00 <cygri> SteveBattle, please phrase a proposal on IRC
Richard Cyganiak: SteveBattle, please phrase a proposal on IRC ←
08:58:00 <bblfish> but the solution seems simple to me: why not just have a class of containers that seperates the two cases ?
Henry Story: but the solution seems simple to me: why not just have a class of containers that seperates the two cases ? ←
08:58:37 <bblfish> -1 for adding new verbs, only a last resort
Henry Story: -1 for adding new verbs, only a last resort ←
08:58:45 <krp> oberger: not entirely clear what a container is in terms of semantics. we need to define what actions we can perform on containers, then map to GET/PUT/POST/DELETE
Olivier Berger: not entirely clear what a container is in terms of semantics. we need to define what actions we can perform on containers, then map to GET/PUT/POST/DELETE [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
08:58:50 <sandro> so POST might be CREATE + ADD-TO-CONTAINER ?
Sandro Hawke: so POST might be CREATE + ADD-TO-CONTAINER ? ←
08:59:23 <SteveBattle> a single container might support both aggregation and composition so I'm not sure we can do it by container type.
Steve Battle: a single container might support both aggregation and composition so I'm not sure we can do it by container type. ←
08:59:34 <ericP> q+ to resolve issue-25 adding a Container property called "deletesMembers" which applies regardless of the URI structure
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to resolve ISSUE-25 adding a Container property called "deletesMembers" which applies regardless of the URI structure ←
08:59:34 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
09:00:11 <Arnaud> ack krp
Arnaud Le Hors: ack krp ←
09:00:14 <sandro> krp: I'm a little confused about the proposal. You want the client to understand whether it's containment?
Kevin Page: I'm a little confused about the proposal. You want the client to understand whether it's containment? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:01:29 <sandro> q-
Sandro Hawke: q- ←
09:01:57 <cygri> PROPOSAL: DELETE on a container deletes the container and any resources with URIs below in a path hierarchy, and nothing else.
PROPOSED: DELETE on a container deletes the container and any resources with URIs below in a path hierarchy, and nothing else. ←
09:02:05 <timbl_> q?
Tim Berners-Lee: q? ←
09:02:17 <sandro> Arnaud: I'm hearing people want to know what the server is going to do when a container is deleted, as far as deleting the contained resources.
Arnaud Le Hors: I'm hearing people want to know what the server is going to do when a container is deleted, as far as deleting the contained resources. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:02:21 <antonis> q+
Antonis Loizou: q+ ←
09:02:27 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
09:02:28 <timbl_> Thius syetm must have rigidly defined and simple semantics. Think unix file syetm.
Tim Berners-Lee: Thius syetm must have rigidly defined and simple semantics. Think unix file syetm. ←
09:02:35 <SteveBattle> q+
Steve Battle: q+ ←
09:02:39 <oberger> q+
Olivier Berger: q+ ←
09:02:52 <timbl_> q+
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ ←
09:02:52 <krp> bblfish: proposal to have two type of containers specified
Henry Story: proposal to have two type of containers specified [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
09:02:52 <antonis> q-
Antonis Loizou: q- ←
09:03:19 <sandro> bblfish: I propose to rdf:types of containers. One type deletes its contained resources when it's deleted; the other type does not.
Henry Story: I propose two rdf:types of containers. One type deletes its contained resources when it's deleted; the other type does not. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:03:27 <sandro> +1 I rather like that.
Sandro Hawke: +1 I rather like that. ←
09:03:35 <SteveBattle> I like cygri's wording - very concise.
Steve Battle: I like cygri's wording - very concise. ←
09:03:37 <nmihindu> q+
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: q+ ←
09:03:39 <sandro> s/to r/two r/
09:03:46 <krp> ... so when client does a GET it knows whether it's an aggregation or container and what the behaviour is when DELETE
Kevin Page: ... so when client does a GET it knows whether it's an aggregation or container and what the behaviour is when DELETE ←
09:04:00 <cygri> SteveBattle, note, not intended to be spec text, just a design to be turned into spec text by the editor
Richard Cyganiak: SteveBattle, note, not intended to be spec text, just a design to be turned into spec text by the editor ←
09:04:36 <rgarcia> q+ to say why don't we define two membership properties, one for weak and another for strong aggregation
Raúl García Castro: q+ to say why don't we define two membership properties, one for weak and another for strong aggregation ←
09:05:05 <krp> oberger: do the different types map to the two examples in the spec
Olivier Berger: do the different types map to the two examples in the spec [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
09:05:07 <SteveS> Like what cygri, though instead requiring uri hierarchy structure why not say something like "and any resources managed by the same server as the container"
Steve Speicher: Like what cygri, though instead requiring uri hierarchy structure why not say something like "and any resources managed by the same server as the container" ←
09:05:20 <ericP> rgarcia, i've typed a proposal like that at 9:59:34
Eric Prud'hommeaux: rgarcia, i've typed a proposal like that at 9:59:34 ←
09:05:25 <oberger> q-
Olivier Berger: q- ←
09:05:27 <Arnaud> ack eric
Arnaud Le Hors: ack eric ←
09:05:27 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to resolve issue-25 adding a Container property called "deletesMembers" which applies regardless of the URI structure
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to resolve ISSUE-25 adding a Container property called "deletesMembers" which applies regardless of the URI structure ←
09:06:18 <bblfish> agree that I don't think that speaking of URL hierachies is useful
Henry Story: agree I don't think that speaking of URL hierachies is useful ←
09:06:50 <BartvanLeeuwen> q+
Bart van Leeuwen: q+ ←
09:06:56 <krp> if URL hierarchies are useful, it is only for implementation on the server (where to me it doesn't seem useful, but hey)
Kevin Page: if URL hierarchies are useful, it is only for implementation on the server (where to me it doesn't seem useful, but hey) ←
09:06:56 <bblfish> s/that I/I/
09:07:07 <Arnaud> ack steveb
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steveb ←
09:07:11 <krp> it is not a sufficient mechanism to inform the client
Kevin Page: it is not a sufficient mechanism to inform the client ←
09:07:33 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+
Ashok Malhotra: q+ ←
09:08:07 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
09:08:09 <Arnaud> ack timbl
Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl ←
09:08:12 <krp> stevebattle: don't believe the typing proposal works... can't add same resources to multiple containers but can to aggregations
Steve Battle: don't believe the typing proposal works... can't add same resources to multiple containers but can to aggregations [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
09:08:35 <ericP> what if we just give up on DELETE delting any members? any use cases which motivate this complexity?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: what if we just give up on DELETE delting any members? any use cases which motivate this complexity? ←
09:09:45 <Ashok_Malhotra> q-
Ashok Malhotra: q- ←
09:10:11 <krp> timbl: don't agree that we can make it a general case, sets and lists are different. containment seems like a clear implementation to a filesystem structure and how a service is likely to be implemented
Tim Berners-Lee: don't agree that we can make it a general case, sets and lists are different. containment seems like a clear implementation to a filesystem structure and how a service is likely to be implemented [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
09:10:40 <krp> ... so group should focus on containers. other forms of aggregation are described by a number of different ontologies.
Kevin Page: ... so group should focus on containers. other forms of aggregation are described by a number of different ontologies. ←
09:11:04 <cygri> PROPOSAL: DELETE on a container deletes the container and any resources with URIs below in a path hierarchy, and nothing else.
PROPOSED: DELETE on a container deletes the container and any resources with URIs below in a path hierarchy, and nothing else. ←
09:11:42 <timbl_> Clarification: Does the URI path match the containership at all times?
Tim Berners-Lee: Clarification: Does the URI path match the containership at all times? ←
09:12:04 <Arnaud> ack nmihindu
Arnaud Le Hors: ack nmihindu ←
09:12:09 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
09:12:10 <krp> clarification: can there be any members *not* under the path hierarchy?
Kevin Page: clarification: can there be any members *not* under the path hierarchy? ←
09:12:31 <SteveBattle> Ah, cygri, your definition says nothing about the URIs created in POST.
Steve Battle: Ah, cygri, your definition says nothing about the URIs created in POST. ←
09:12:54 <BartvanLeeuwen> q-
Bart van Leeuwen: q- ←
09:12:54 <Arnaud> ack rgarcia
Arnaud Le Hors: ack rgarcia ←
09:12:55 <cygri> SteveBattle, do you want to rephrase it?
Richard Cyganiak: SteveBattle, do you want to rephrase it? ←
09:12:56 <Zakim> rgarcia, you wanted to say why don't we define two membership properties, one for weak and another for strong aggregation
Zakim IRC Bot: rgarcia, you wanted to say why don't we define two membership properties, one for weak and another for strong aggregation ←
09:13:37 <Arnaud> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
09:14:09 <krp> rgarcia: define two membership properties
Raúl García Castro: define two membership properties [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
09:14:10 <timbl_> PROPOSAL: The group drop discussion of the aggregation model as that does not require mutual understanding between client and server, only between client and client.
PROPOSED: The group drop discussion of the aggregation model as that does not require mutual understanding between client and server, only between client and client. ←
09:14:39 <SteveBattle> "DELETE on a container deletes the container and any resources with URIs below in a path hierarchy, and nothing else. POST on a container creates a new resource URI hierarchically below the container."
Steve Battle: "DELETE on a container deletes the container and any resources with URIs below in a path hierarchy, and nothing else. POST on a container creates a new resource URI hierarchically below the container." ←
09:14:47 <bblfish> we forgot timbls proposal: the container of the spec is/(should be?) the agregation type of container with the propoerty that if you delete it you delete all sub-resources, managed by that server. Weak agregation could be done using other ontologies by just publishing information in an rdf resource
Henry Story: we forgot timbls proposal: the container of the spec is/(should be?) the agregation type of container with the propoerty that if you delete it you delete all sub-resources, managed by that server. Weak agregation could be done using other ontologies by just publishing information in an rdf resource ←
09:14:53 <krp> cygri: spec allows domain specific subclassing and this will quickly get complicated with two properties
Richard Cyganiak: spec allows domain specific subclassing and this will quickly get complicated with two properties [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
09:15:21 <antonis> ldp:compositionPredicate rdfs:subClassOf ldp:memberhiPredicate . ldp:aggregationPredicate rdfs:subClassOf ldp:memberhiPredicate .
Antonis Loizou: ldp:compositionPredicate rdfs:subPropertyOf ldp:memberhiPredicate . ldp:aggregationPredicate rdfs:subPropertyOf ldp:memberhiPredicate . ←
09:15:28 <krp> .. do need to support both cases (strong and weak aggregation). container as designed seems to be about strong
Kevin Page: .. do need to support both cases (strong and weak aggregation). container as designed seems to be about strong ←
09:15:28 <antonis> ?
Antonis Loizou: ? ←
09:15:33 <rgarcia> q+ to say that if we don't have both membership properties then we are forcing that domain-specific membership properties are always weak aggregation ones
Raúl García Castro: q+ to say that if we don't have both membership properties then we are forcing that domain-specific membership properties are always weak aggregation ones ←
09:16:03 <SteveBattle> Ughh- that's going to get ugly PRETTY quickly (ld composition predicates)
Steve Battle: Ughh- that's going to get ugly PRETTY quickly (ld composition predicates) ←
09:16:04 <bblfish> +1 for how to do weak agregation sounds good.
Henry Story: +1 for how to do weak agregation sounds good. ←
09:16:22 <krp> ... but we need to be clear how to do weak aggregation
Kevin Page: ... but we need to be clear how to do weak aggregation ←
09:16:32 <betehess> can somebody gives a use-case for weak-aggregation?
Alexandre Bertails: can somebody gives a use-case for weak-aggregation? ←
09:16:38 <timbl_> q+ to suggest that the group separate out into separate sections of the document the client-server protocol (includes containers, ACL) and the client-client protocol (data types, preferred vocabulary, aggregation membership).
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ to suggest that the group separate out into separate sections of the document the client-server protocol (includes containers, ACL) and the client-client protocol (data types, preferred vocabulary, aggregation membership). ←
09:17:02 <antonis> s/rdfs:subClassOf/rdfs:subPropertyOf/
09:17:11 <ericP> lastlog propos
Eric Prud'hommeaux: lastlog propos ←
09:17:15 <timbl_> q?
Tim Berners-Lee: q? ←
09:17:21 <krp> oberger: we need to decide which way container is, and whether we need the other
Olivier Berger: we need to decide which way container is, and whether we need the other [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
09:17:34 <Arnaud> ack steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves ←
09:17:36 <SteveBattle> q+
Steve Battle: q+ ←
09:18:35 <cygri> oberger++
Richard Cyganiak: oberger++ ←
09:18:36 <krp> steves: say that instead of a hierarchy of uris say a resource hierarchy managed by that server
Steve Speicher: say that instead of a hierarchy of uris say a resource hierarchy managed by that server [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
09:19:51 <Arnaud> ack timbl
Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl ←
09:19:51 <Zakim> timbl_, you wanted to suggest that the group separate out into separate sections of the document the client-server protocol (includes containers, ACL) and the client-client
Zakim IRC Bot: timbl_, you wanted to suggest that the group separate out into separate sections of the document the client-server protocol (includes containers, ACL) and the client-client ←
09:19:54 <Zakim> ... protocol (data types, preferred vocabulary, aggregation membership).
Zakim IRC Bot: ... protocol (data types, preferred vocabulary, aggregation membership). ←
09:21:16 <krp> timbl: separate client-client protocol from client-server. allow clients to build new kinds of structure and the server doesn't need to be away. server needs to be aware of things like managing the stored resources and backing to (file)storage
Tim Berners-Lee: separate client-client protocol from client-server. allow clients to build new kinds of structure and the server doesn't need to be away. server needs to be aware of things like managing the stored resources and backing to (file)storage [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
09:21:29 <krp> ... go through spec and consider "does the server need to be aware of this"
Kevin Page: ... go through spec and consider "does the server need to be aware of this" ←
09:22:05 <Arnaud> ack rgarcia
Arnaud Le Hors: ack rgarcia ←
09:22:05 <Zakim> rgarcia, you wanted to say that if we don't have both membership properties then we are forcing that domain-specific membership properties are always weak aggregation ones
Zakim IRC Bot: rgarcia, you wanted to say that if we don't have both membership properties then we are forcing that domain-specific membership properties are always weak aggregation ones ←
09:22:38 <cygri> PROPOSAL: We need containers for both composition and aggregation. Container-created resources is composition. �It's good practice but not required that URI hierarchy match composition.
PROPOSED: We need containers for both composition and aggregation. Container-created resources is composition. �It's good practice but not required that URI hierarchy match composition. ←
09:23:23 <FabGandon> ack SteveBattle
Fabien Gandon: ack SteveBattle ←
09:23:42 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
09:24:01 <krp> stevebattle: Tim is correct, the LDP is primarily about containment. but we do need aggregation.
Steve Battle: Tim is correct, the LDP is primarily about containment. but we do need aggregation. [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
09:24:26 <SteveS> +1 to cygri 10:22 proposal
Steve Speicher: +1 to cygri 10:22 proposal ←
09:24:32 <timbl_> q+ to point out hierarchical URIs connect with WebDav and also give locality of reference with relative URIs.
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ to point out hierarchical URIs connect with WebDav and also give locality of reference with relative URIs. ←
09:24:35 <oberger> q+ to know why rdfs:Container isn't reused
Olivier Berger: q+ to know why rdfs:Container isn't reused ←
09:24:35 <krp> ... other precedents for hierarchical URIs
Kevin Page: ... other precedents for hierarchical URIs ←
09:25:00 <Arnaud> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
09:25:01 <SteveBattle> I'd still prefer the use of hierarchical URIs.
Steve Battle: I'd still prefer the use of hierarchical URIs. ←
09:25:23 <SteveS> oberger, could also look at skos:Collection as the type to indicate aggregation
Steve Speicher: oberger, could also look at skos:Collection as the type to indicate aggregation ←
09:25:34 <Arnaud> ack timbl
Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl ←
09:25:34 <Zakim> timbl_, you wanted to point out hierarchical URIs connect with WebDav and also give locality of reference with relative URIs.
Zakim IRC Bot: timbl_, you wanted to point out hierarchical URIs connect with WebDav and also give locality of reference with relative URIs. ←
09:25:37 <sandro> I have a hard time imagining it's okay to delete /foo and still have /foo/bar exist.
Sandro Hawke: I have a hard time imagining it's okay to delete /foo and still have /foo/bar exist. ←
09:25:53 <SteveBattle> TOTALLY agree
Steve Battle: TOTALLY agree ←
09:26:21 <ahaller2> sandro++
Armin Haller: sandro++ ←
09:26:54 <Yves> +1 to sandro
Yves Lafon: +1 to sandro ←
09:27:19 <betehess> agree with tim, we're conflating different problems and solutions here
Alexandre Bertails: agree with tim, we're conflating different problems and solutions here ←
09:27:26 <ericP> q?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q? ←
09:27:30 <sandro> +1 timbl: paging large agregates is something you need with any kind of large RDF Graph
Sandro Hawke: +1 timbl: paging large agregates is something you need with any kind of large RDF Graph ←
09:28:08 <krp> cygri: consider a container with a common relationship to lots of resources, which the container has not control over, but facilities such as paging are still useful
Richard Cyganiak: consider a container with a common relationship to lots of resources, which the container has not control over, but facilities such as paging are still useful [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
09:28:10 <SteveBattle> paging is currently tied to the aggregation - I think that's right.
Steve Battle: paging is currently tied to the aggregation - I think that's right. ←
09:28:13 <Yves> a POST on a container /foo MAY create multiple resources under /foo, DELETE on a container /foo MUST delete all its underlying resources
Yves Lafon: a POST on a container /foo MAY create multiple resources under /foo, DELETE on a container /foo MUST delete all its underlying resources ←
09:28:26 <krp> timbl: that sounds like an RDF graph. can we not have paging on all RDF graphs?
Tim Berners-Lee: that sounds like an RDF graph. can we not have paging on all RDF graphs? [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
09:28:43 <bblfish> +1 to follow up on looking at separating paging more clearly
Henry Story: +1 to follow up on looking at separating paging more clearly ←
09:28:50 <betehess> Yves: that's an analysis or a proposal?
Yves Lafon: that's an analysis or a proposal? [ Scribe Assist by Alexandre Bertails ] ←
09:28:51 <Arnaud> ack oberger
Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger ←
09:28:51 <Zakim> oberger, you wanted to know why rdfs:Container isn't reused
Zakim IRC Bot: oberger, you wanted to know why rdfs:Container isn't reused ←
09:28:55 <cygri> cygri: we call it "container" even though it's really a controller for a subject-predicate pair
Richard Cyganiak: we call it "container" even though it's really a controller for a subject-predicate pair [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ] ←
09:29:11 <Yves> betehess, an analysis of what people seems to want
Yves Lafon: betehess, an analysis of what people seems to want ←
09:29:14 <krp> oberger: proposed to use rdfs:member, but I also see rdfs: container
Olivier Berger: proposed to use rdfs:member, but I also see rdfs: container [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
09:29:23 <timbl_> PROPOSAL: the paging functionality be applied to any subject for any property, and that be separated in the spec from containment, and it apply to containment as a example with no further design.
PROPOSED: the paging functionality be applied to any subject for any property, and that be separated in the spec from containment, and it apply to containment as a example with no further design. ←
09:29:33 <Yves> and it seems logical too ;)
Yves Lafon: and it seems logical too ;) ←
09:29:39 <krp> ... so maybe we shouldn't call it container?
Kevin Page: ... so maybe we shouldn't call it container? ←
09:29:41 <SteveBattle> But we can also use skos:Collection - don't overload refs:Container
Steve Battle: But we can also use skos:Collection - don't overload refs:Container ←
09:29:52 <cygri> +1 to timbl's proposal
Richard Cyganiak: +1 to timbl's proposal ←
09:30:15 <krp> arnaud: good time to have a break?
Arnaud Le Hors: good time to have a break? [ Scribe Assist by Kevin Page ] ←
09:30:19 <betehess> +1 to timbl
Alexandre Bertails: +1 to timbl ←
09:30:29 <sandro> +1 timbl's
Sandro Hawke: +1 timbl's ←
09:30:38 <rgarcia> +1 to timbl's
Raúl García Castro: +1 to timbl's ←
09:30:56 <ericP> Proposals:
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Proposals: ←
09:30:56 <ericP> .. hierarchical URIs represent containment (and delelete members) (stevebattle)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: .. hierarchical URIs represent containment (and delelete members) (stevebattle) ←
09:30:56 <ericP> .. class type specifies whether members are contained (bblfish)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: .. class type specifies whether members are contained (bblfish) ←
09:30:56 <ericP> .. { <SomeContainer> ldp:deletesMembers true } deletes members regardless of URI (ericP)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: .. { <SomeContainer> ldp:deletesMembers true } deletes members regardless of URI (ericP) ←
09:30:59 <ericP> .. the membership property specifies containment (rgarcia)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: .. the membership property specifies containment (rgarcia) ←
09:31:02 <ericP> .. all containers delete members (timbl)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: .. all containers delete members (timbl) ←
09:31:04 <ericP> .. all created (by POST) resources are contained
Eric Prud'hommeaux: .. all created (by POST) resources are contained ←
09:31:26 <timbl_> PROPOSAL: separate client-client protocol from client-server. allow clients to build new kinds of structure and the server doesn't need to be away. server needs to be aware of things like managing the stored resources and backing to (file)storage. the paging functionality be applied to any subject for any property, and that be separated in the spec from containment, and it apply to containment as a example with no further design.
PROPOSED: separate client-client protocol from client-server. allow clients to build new kinds of structure and the server doesn't need to be away. server needs to be aware of things like managing the stored resources and backing to (file)storage. the paging functionality be applied to any subject for any property, and that be separated in the spec from containment, and it apply to containment as a example with no further design. ←
09:34:48 <SteveBattle> Clarification neede: Does this separation imply that we drop ldp:membershipPredicate or not?
Steve Battle: Clarification neede: Does this separation imply that we drop ldp:membershipPredicate or not? ←
09:48:25 <Zakim> -Yves
(No events recorded for 13 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -Yves ←
09:59:57 <sandro> JohnArwe, we are returning from break now.
(No events recorded for 11 minutes)
10:00:29 <oberger> q+ to question the role of dc:creator for ownership wrt DELETE
Olivier Berger: q+ to question the role of dc:creator for ownership wrt DELETE ←
10:00:37 <Zakim> +JohnArwe
Zakim IRC Bot: +JohnArwe ←
10:00:38 <Zakim> -JohnArwe
Zakim IRC Bot: -JohnArwe ←
10:00:38 <Zakim> +JohnArwe
Zakim IRC Bot: +JohnArwe ←
10:02:56 <oberger> q-
Olivier Berger: q- ←
10:03:26 <betehess> s/JohnArwe, we are returning from break now.//
10:04:02 <ahaller2> ISSUE-25
10:04:19 <oberger> JohnArwe, we have wandered a bit far from the issue
Olivier Berger: JohnArwe, we have wandered a bit far from the issue ←
10:04:21 <nmihindu> TOPIC: More ISSUE-25
10:04:34 <sandro> "Weak aggregation and strong composition in containers"
Sandro Hawke: "Weak aggregation and strong composition in containers" ←
10:05:07 <nmihindu> Arnaud: We are talking about many issues within this issues
Arnaud Le Hors: We are talking about many issues within this issues [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:05:26 <cygri> STRAWPOLL: Do we need weak aggregation in the spec?
STRAWPOLL: Do we need weak aggregation in the spec? ←
10:05:30 <sandro> Arnaud: I take for granted that we need Strong Compisition. Any objection? ... none ...
Arnaud Le Hors: I take for granted that we need Strong Compisition. Any objection? ... none ... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
10:05:37 <nmihindu> Arnaud: do we need to have weak aggregation ?
Arnaud Le Hors: do we need to have weak aggregation ? [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:05:38 <cygri> +1 Yes we need it
Richard Cyganiak: +1 Yes we need it ←
10:05:41 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
Bart van Leeuwen: +1 ←
10:05:41 <ahaller2> +1
Armin Haller: +1 ←
10:05:41 <antonis> +1
Antonis Loizou: +1 ←
10:05:42 <rgarcia> +1
Raúl García Castro: +1 ←
10:05:44 <oberger> +1
Olivier Berger: +1 ←
10:05:44 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
10:05:50 <betehess> +1
Alexandre Bertails: +1 ←
10:05:52 <bblfish> +1
Henry Story: +1 but in other terms ←
10:05:54 <SteveBattle> would like to hear what Time had to say before I vote
Steve Battle: would like to hear what Tim had to say before I vote ←
10:06:00 <nmihindu> Arnaud: do we need aggregation ?
Arnaud Le Hors: do we need aggregation ? [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:06:01 <SteveBattle> s/Time/Tim
10:06:11 <sandro> +0 apps need it, but I don't think *we* necessarily need to spec anything
Sandro Hawke: +0 apps need it, but I don't think *we* necessarily need to spec anything ←
10:06:13 <bblfish> +0
Henry Story: +0 ←
10:06:20 <Zakim> +Yves
Zakim IRC Bot: +Yves ←
10:06:21 <timbl_> -1
Tim Berners-Lee: -1 ←
10:06:23 <betehess> s/+1/+1 but in other terms/
10:06:23 <nmihindu> Arnaud: aggregation is weak composition
Arnaud Le Hors: aggregation is weak composition [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:06:28 <oberger> I'm not sure I understand what "need" means
Olivier Berger: I'm not sure I understand what "need" means ←
10:06:48 <Yves> +0 we might provision for it, but not define it
Yves Lafon: +0 we might provision for it, but not define it ←
10:06:54 <nmihindu> Arnaud: do we need to address weak aggregation in this spec ?
Arnaud Le Hors: do we need to address weak aggregation in this spec ? [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:06:59 <JohnArwe> what is composition as you're using the term, since I need to understand that in order to parse your definition of aggregation as weak comp
John Arwe: what is composition as you're using the term, since I need to understand that in order to parse your definition of aggregation as weak comp ←
10:06:59 <bblfish> I am not sure
Henry Story: I am not sure ←
10:07:07 <bblfish> I need to implement it
Henry Story: I need to implement it ←
10:07:21 <nmihindu> oberger: do paging is included in this ?
Olivier Berger: do paging is included in this ? [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:08:26 <antonis> strong composition: when a container is deleted, all contained resources are also deleted
Antonis Loizou: strong composition: when a container is deleted, all contained resources are also deleted ←
10:08:41 <nmihindu> timbl: why does the server have to know those arcs have to do with aggregation ?
Tim Berners-Lee: why does the server have to know those arcs have to do with aggregation ? [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:08:53 <antonis> weak aggregation: when a container is deleted, resources under it are not
Antonis Loizou: weak aggregation: when a container is deleted, resources under it are not ←
10:08:54 <SteveBattle> +1
Steve Battle: +1 ←
10:08:56 <betehess> as a developer, I have no need at all for weak aggregation as I have RDF graphs already, but I see value in paging for any kind of resource
Alexandre Bertails: as a developer, I have no need at all for weak aggregation as I have RDF graphs already, but I see value in paging for any kind of resource ←
10:09:07 <krp> Do we need weak aggregation for *anything other than paging*? (if not, we can split out the paging issue)
Kevin Page: Do we need weak aggregation for *anything other than paging*? (if not, we can split out the paging issue) ←
10:09:16 <sandro> +1 timbl: general aggregation is something clients to can, without knowledge/support from the server. but LDP servers should provide paging of that data, if necessary.
Sandro Hawke: +1 timbl: general aggregation is something clients to can, without knowledge/support from the server. but LDP servers should provide paging of that data, if necessary. ←
10:09:17 <bblfish> So one should consider other methods one can use to do the same. Eg. Post an rdf:Collection to a ldp:Collection, then one can use some form of SPARQL update on the collection when making changes
Henry Story: So one should consider other methods one can use to do the same. Eg. Post an rdf:Collection to a ldp:Collection, then one can use some form of SPARQL update on the collection when making changes ←
10:09:25 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
10:09:42 <nmihindu> SteveS: aggregation is important for ordering
Steve Speicher: aggregation is important for ordering [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:10:19 <sandro> subtopic? What does the server need to implement about aggregation?
Sandro Hawke: subtopic? What does the server need to implement about aggregation? ←
10:10:30 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
10:10:31 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
10:10:39 <cygri> q+ to say we need aggregation to associate two existing� resources
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to say we need aggregation to associate two existing� resources ←
10:10:41 <SteveBattle> I agree the spec doesn't NEED weak aggregation - it's a convenience.
Steve Battle: I agree the spec doesn't NEED weak aggregation - it's a convenience. ←
10:10:53 <svillata> q?
Serena Villata: q? ←
10:11:15 <cygri> q+ to say we need something aggregation-like in the client-server protocol to associate two existing resources
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to say we need something aggregation-like in the client-server protocol to associate two existing resources ←
10:11:24 <SteveS> wondering if using RDF collections to specify ordering in the model across pages will impose inserting stuff in graph
Steve Speicher: wondering if using RDF collections to specify ordering in the model across pages will impose inserting stuff in graph ←
10:11:39 <nmihindu> bblfish: if we have use cases for this, we can see how they fit
Henry Story: if we have use cases for this, we can see how they fit [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:11:42 <timbl_> Hmmm …. SPARQL updates for adding things to a list are something we do not have right now, we have to replace the list.
Tim Berners-Lee: Hmmm …. SPARQL updates for adding things to a list are something we do not have right now, we have to replace the list. ←
10:12:08 <Arnaud> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
10:12:10 <krp> +q
Kevin Page: +q ←
10:12:13 <nmihindu> Arnaud: we are not sure what are the requirements are and what problems we need to solve
Arnaud Le Hors: we are not sure what are the requirements are and what problems we need to solve [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:13:22 <nmihindu> betehess: I need to have composition for resources I created and rest I can do in my application
Alexandre Bertails: I need to have composition for resources I created and rest I can do in my application [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:14:13 <timbl_> ?
Tim Berners-Lee: ? ←
10:14:19 <nmihindu> Arnaud: we need to see whether we have a UC for weak aggregation
Arnaud Le Hors: we need to see whether we have a UC for weak aggregation [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:14:54 <bblfish> which issue?
Henry Story: which issue? ←
10:15:03 <betehess> the issue may not be describing the UC very well
Alexandre Bertails: the issue may not be describing the UC very well ←
10:15:07 <Arnaud> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
10:15:07 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to say we need aggregation to associate two existing� resources and to say we need something aggregation-like in the client-server protocol to associate two
Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to say we need aggregation to associate two existing� resources and to say we need something aggregation-like in the client-server protocol to associate two ←
10:15:08 <ahaller2> example use case: a web form at /foo, data for this form at /foo/bar1 and /foo/bar2, but I want to keep these instances when I delete /foo, because the instances are independent resources of the web form
Armin Haller: example use case: a web form at /foo, data for this form at /foo/bar1 and /foo/bar2, but I want to keep these instances when I delete /foo, because the instances are independent resources of the web form ←
10:15:10 <Zakim> ... existing resources
Zakim IRC Bot: ... existing resources ←
10:15:12 <nmihindu> Arnaud: we need to decide whether this a requirement we need address
Arnaud Le Hors: we need to decide whether this a requirement we need address [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:15:21 <SteveBattle> weak aggregation was indirectly raised in issue 7
Steve Battle: weak aggregation was indirectly raised in ISSUE-7 ←
10:16:00 <nmihindu> cygri: rdf triple by default is weak aggregation
Richard Cyganiak: rdf triple by default is weak aggregation [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:16:02 <bblfish> Issue-7?
10:16:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-7 -- What operations are permittered on containers and how do they get invoked? -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-7 -- What operations are permittered on containers and how do they get invoked? -- open ←
10:16:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/7
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/7 ←
10:16:21 <betehess> I'm not sure if people here agee with cygri's definition of weak aggregation
Alexandre Bertails: I'm not sure if people here agree with cygri's definition of weak aggregation ←
10:16:36 <betehess> s/agee/agree/
10:16:38 <SteveBattle> I do
Steve Battle: I do ←
10:16:40 <bblfish> q?
Henry Story: q? ←
10:16:42 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
10:16:46 <nmihindu> cygri: I need some mechanism for doing paging and may be we can weak aggregation for this
Richard Cyganiak: I need some mechanism for doing paging and may be we can weak aggregation for this [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:17:06 <betehess> SteveBattle, care to put down in words definitions for weak and strong?
Alexandre Bertails: SteveBattle, care to put down in words definitions for weak and strong? ←
10:17:07 <bblfish> so my question is why can the weakly agregated collection not be just a document that contains links to other resources?
Henry Story: so my question is why can the weakly agregated collection not be just a document that contains links to other resources? ←
10:17:41 <nmihindu> sandro: whether PATCH will solve this problem ?
Sandro Hawke: whether PATCH will solve this problem ? [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:18:01 <bblfish> mhh. I thought we were going to have patch
Henry Story: mhh. I thought we were going to have patch ←
10:18:01 <nmihindu> cygri: it might
Richard Cyganiak: it might [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:18:03 <timbl_> q+
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ ←
10:18:22 <bblfish> or something like it - ie sending a SPARQL update type of message to a resource
Henry Story: or something like it - ie sending a SPARQL update type of message to a resource ←
10:18:55 <betehess> I'm hearing timbl_'s proposal I believe
Alexandre Bertails: I'm hearing timbl_'s proposal I believe ←
10:19:43 <Arnaud> ack krp
Arnaud Le Hors: ack krp ←
10:19:52 <bblfish> q-
Henry Story: q- ←
10:19:53 <sandro> I actually think we should offer basic graph operations -- single triple match, and paging -- standard on all resources.
Sandro Hawke: I actually think we should offer basic graph operations -- single triple match, and paging -- standard on all resources. ←
10:19:53 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
10:20:07 <nmihindu> cygri: there are two main things related to containers 1) management of properties 2) creating new resources
Richard Cyganiak: there are two main things related to containers 1) management of properties 2) creating new resources [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:20:32 <Arnaud> ack timbl
Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl ←
10:20:46 <nmihindu> krp: concrete use case for weak aggregation
Kevin Page: concrete use case for weak aggregation [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:20:58 <bblfish> q-
Henry Story: q- ←
10:22:10 <bblfish> timple makes a strong case for PATCH
Henry Story: timbl makes a strong case for PATCH ←
10:22:13 <nmihindu> timbl: with PATCH this issue can be handled
Tim Berners-Lee: with PATCH this issue can be handled [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:22:13 <betehess> I thought that some kind of PATCH was a given
Alexandre Bertails: I thought that some kind of PATCH was a given ←
10:22:35 <JohnArwe> s/timple/timbl/
10:22:39 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
10:22:53 <nmihindu> timbl: did you make decision to make PATCH optional ?
Tim Berners-Lee: did you make decision to make PATCH optional ? [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:23:37 <Arnaud> ack steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves ←
10:23:57 <nmihindu> Arnaud: We can make patch mandatory how if we define how it will work
Arnaud Le Hors: We can make patch mandatory how if we define how it will work [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:24:16 <Yves> we need a patch format...
Yves Lafon: we need a patch format... ←
10:24:47 <nmihindu> SteveS: we will not reinvent the wheel but point to existing solutions
Steve Speicher: we will not reinvent the wheel but point to existing solutions [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:25:12 <SteveBattle> Composition is a 'part-of' relationship; the lifecycle of the subordinate resource is tied to the container. Aggregation is a 'member-of' relation; and the lifecycle of the subordinate object is not linked to the container.
Steve Battle: Composition is a 'part-of' relationship; the lifecycle of the subordinate resource is tied to the container. Aggregation is a 'member-of' relation; and the lifecycle of the subordinate object is not linked to the container. ←
10:25:23 <nmihindu> SteveS: we didn't include the PATCH as we couldn't agree on a PATCH format etc.
Steve Speicher: we didn't include the PATCH as we couldn't agree on a PATCH format etc. [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:26:02 <krp> For our application we need weak aggregation, but I believe this can be handled in the domain model. If I wanted to manipulate this membership through LDP, rather than manipulating the wider graph, then the membership triples could be an explicit separate resource that can be manipulated (e.g. DELETE). Strong containers are the distinct case where we would want to be explicit that the server attempt to recursively delete members.
Kevin Page: For our application we need weak aggregation, but I believe this can be handled in the domain model. If I wanted to manipulate this membership through LDP, rather than manipulating the wider graph, then the membership triples could be an explicit separate resource that can be manipulated (e.g. DELETE). Strong containers are the distinct case where we would want to be explicit that the server attempt to recursively delete members. ←
10:26:29 <betehess> krp, +1
Alexandre Bertails: krp, +1 ←
10:26:30 <nmihindu> Arnaud: We first make spec address strong aggregation and then take a look at weak aggregation issue
Arnaud Le Hors: We first make spec address strong aggregation and then take a look at weak aggregation issue [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:26:39 <sandro> PROPOSAL: Make the containers in the spec be about Strong Composition, then accept proposals for how to do weak aggregation. And separate proposals for paging, etc.
PROPOSED: Make the containers in the spec be about Strong Composition, then accept proposals for how to do weak aggregation. And separate proposals for paging, etc. ←
10:26:45 <SteveBattle> A given resource may both contain and aggregate many objects.
Steve Battle: A given resource may both contain and aggregate many objects. ←
10:26:49 <krp> +1
Kevin Page: +1 ←
10:27:01 <SteveBattle> +1
Steve Battle: +1 ←
10:27:04 <rgarcia> +
10:27:04 <cygri> +
10:27:05 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
10:27:05 <antonis> +1
Antonis Loizou: +1 ←
10:27:06 <rgarcia> +1
Raúl García Castro: +1 ←
10:27:06 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
10:27:07 <betehess> +1
Alexandre Bertails: +1 ←
10:27:08 <bblfish> +1
Henry Story: +1 ←
10:27:10 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
10:27:15 <timbl_> +1
Tim Berners-Lee: +1 ←
10:27:16 <SteveBattle> q+
Steve Battle: q+ ←
10:27:17 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
10:27:17 <svillata> +1
Serena Villata: +1 ←
10:27:20 <Yves> +!
Yves Lafon: +! ←
10:27:21 <ahaller2> +1
Armin Haller: +1 ←
10:27:24 <Yves> +1
Yves Lafon: +1 ←
10:27:27 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
10:27:27 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
Bart van Leeuwen: +1 ←
10:27:30 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
10:27:30 <oberger> +1
Olivier Berger: +1 ←
10:27:43 <sandro> RESOLVED: Make the containers in the spec be about Strong Composition, then accept proposals for how to do weak aggregation. And separate proposals for paging, etc.
RESOLVED: Make the containers in the spec be about Strong Composition, then accept proposals for how to do weak aggregation. And separate proposals for paging, etc. ←
10:27:55 <Arnaud> ack steveb
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steveb ←
10:28:32 <nmihindu> SteveBattle: Do you mean the spec as it is or with changes ?
Steve Battle: Do you mean the spec as it is or with changes ? [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:28:58 <cygri> q+ to say that's a client-client issue
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to say that's a client-client issue ←
10:29:00 <nmihindu> SteveBattle: I am against using rdfs:member for composition
Steve Battle: I am against using rdfs:member for composition [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:29:15 <JohnArwe> I thought the resolution was, if you will, at the conceptual level. Agreeing on that concept might imply that spec changes are a consequence.
John Arwe: I thought the resolution was, if you will, at the conceptual level. Agreeing on that concept might imply that spec changes are a consequence. ←
10:29:19 <bblfish> I understand the issue with rdfs:member being perhaps not precise enough.
Henry Story: I understand the issue with rdfs:member being perhaps not precise enough. ←
10:29:33 <bblfish> ldp:member
Henry Story: ldp:member ←
10:29:36 <cygri> q?
Richard Cyganiak: q? ←
10:29:48 <timbl_> q+
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ ←
10:29:48 <Arnaud> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
10:29:49 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to say that's a client-client issue
Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to say that's a client-client issue ←
10:30:02 <JohnArwe> ...i.e., if we agree the spec *should* be describing strong composition and we find cases where it is not, well that's what comments are for.
John Arwe: ...i.e., if we agree the spec *should* be describing strong composition and we find cases where it is not, well that's what comments are for. ←
10:30:33 <SteveBattle> I still think that overloads rdfs:member
Steve Battle: I still think that overloads rdfs:member ←
10:30:36 <krp> Though while I think weak composition can/should be done in the domain model, I think this approach will need explanation through example (e.g. in a primer)
Kevin Page: Though while I think weak composition can/should be done in the domain model, I think this approach will need explanation through example (e.g. in a primer) ←
10:30:49 <oberger> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/#ch_member 5.1.6 rdfs:member
Olivier Berger: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/#ch_member 5.1.6 rdfs:member ←
10:30:49 <oberger> rdfs:member is an instance of rdf:Property that is a super-property of all the container membership properties i.e. each container membership property has an rdfs:subPropertyOf relationship to the property rdfs:member.
Olivier Berger: rdfs:member is an instance of rdf:Property that is a super-property of all the container membership properties i.e. each container membership property has an rdfs:subPropertyOf relationship to the property rdfs:member. ←
10:30:55 <nmihindu> cygri: we are not using rdfs:member for composition but the ldp container class
Richard Cyganiak: we are not using rdfs:member for composition but the ldp container class [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:31:05 <betehess> please no sub-properties
Alexandre Bertails: please no sub-properties ←
10:31:16 <Arnaud> ack timbl
Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl ←
10:32:05 <oberger> are we done with issue 25 ?
Olivier Berger: are we done with ISSUE-25 ? ←
10:32:40 <nmihindu> timbl_: SPARQL update is the clear choice for PATCH
Tim Berners-Lee: SPARQL update is the clear choice for PATCH [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:32:46 <SteveBattle> I proposed changesets as a PATCH format :(
Steve Battle: I proposed changesets as a PATCH format :( ←
10:32:46 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
10:32:50 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
10:33:52 <nmihindu> Arnaud: I don't think we can close the ISSUE 25
Arnaud Le Hors: I don't think we can close the ISSUE-25 [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:34:13 <bblfish> so we need to open a new issue on patch
Henry Story: so we need to open a new issue on patch ←
10:34:41 <bblfish> +1
Henry Story: +1 ←
10:34:48 <cygri> ISSUE-7?
10:34:48 <trackbot> ISSUE-7 -- What operations are permittered on containers and how do they get invoked? -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-7 -- What operations are permittered on containers and how do they get invoked? -- open ←
10:34:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/7
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/7 ←
10:34:48 <nmihindu> cygri: we need to answer the four points of the ISSUE 25, if PATCH is there is solves the issue. If it is not there we need to address those.
Richard Cyganiak: we need to answer the four points of the ISSUE-25, if PATCH is there is solves the issue. If it is not there we need to address those. [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:34:58 <cygri> ISSUE-17?
10:34:58 <trackbot> ISSUE-17 -- changesets as a recommended PATCH format -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-17 -- changesets as a recommended PATCH format -- open ←
10:34:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/17
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/17 ←
10:35:05 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
10:35:39 <sandro> q-
Sandro Hawke: q- ←
10:35:41 <nmihindu> sandro: Issue 17 is related to PATCH, may be we should rename it to handle PATCH
Sandro Hawke: ISSUE-17 is related to PATCH, may be we should rename it to handle PATCH [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:36:15 <timbl_> Arnaud's division above separates the paging and patch be defined independently of containers is wise, and does require new issues about defining PATCH and generalizing paging.
Tim Berners-Lee: Arnaud's division above separates the paging and patch be defined independently of containers is wise, and does require new issues about defining PATCH and generalizing paging. ←
10:36:34 <timbl_> q?
Tim Berners-Lee: q? ←
10:36:37 <Arnaud> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
10:36:41 <sandro> Arnaud: Close issue-25 but make sure we have open ones on Patch and General-Paging
Arnaud Le Hors: Close ISSUE-25 but make sure we have open ones on Patch and General-Paging [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
10:36:44 <nmihindu> Arnaud: We need an issue about aggregation, and issue 17 will handle PATCH
Arnaud Le Hors: We need an issue about aggregation, and ISSUE-17 will handle PATCH [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:36:51 <BartvanLeeuwen> Issue-7?
10:36:52 <trackbot> ISSUE-7 -- What operations are permittered on containers and how do they get invoked? -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-7 -- What operations are permittered on containers and how do they get invoked? -- open ←
10:36:52 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/7
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/7 ←
10:37:03 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
10:37:09 <AndyS> FWIW - Changesets can be translated directly to a SPARQL Update (a DELETE DATA and a INSERT DATA) mechanically.
Andy Seaborne: FWIW - Changesets can be translated directly to a SPARQL Update (a DELETE DATA and a INSERT DATA) mechanically. ←
10:37:29 <sandro> cygri: If we define a required patch format, then that solves issue-25, yes.
Richard Cyganiak: If we define a required patch format, then that solves ISSUE-25, yes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
10:38:32 <nmihindu> Arnaud: we should have an issue on paging
Arnaud Le Hors: we should have an issue on paging [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:38:41 <oberger> issue-17?
10:38:41 <trackbot> ISSUE-17 -- changesets as a recommended PATCH format -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-17 -- changesets as a recommended PATCH format -- open ←
10:38:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/17
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/17 ←
10:38:48 <cygri> ISSUE-18?
10:38:48 <trackbot> ISSUE-18 -- container membership and robust pagination -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-18 -- container membership and robust pagination -- open ←
10:38:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/18
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/18 ←
10:39:01 <nmihindu> oberger: do we need more used cases for aggregation ?
Olivier Berger: do we need more use cases for aggregation ? [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:39:17 <nmihindu> cygri: we already have one
Richard Cyganiak: we already have one [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:39:37 <nmihindu> s/used/use
10:39:45 <SteveS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2012Sep/0089.html
Steve Speicher: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2012Sep/0089.html ←
10:40:11 <SteveBattle> I believe that all any's scenarios are covered in UC&R
Steve Battle: I believe that all andy's scenarios are covered in UC&R ←
10:40:19 <SteveBattle> s/any/andy
10:40:20 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to open an issue on paging
ACTION: cygri to open an issue on paging ←
10:40:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-22 - Open an issue on paging [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-11-09].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-22 - Open an issue on paging [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-11-09]. ←
10:42:22 <nmihindu> Arnaud: we need to close some issue and open more granular ones that addresses the raised points
Arnaud Le Hors: we need to close some issue and open more granular ones that addresses the raised points [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:43:11 <bblfish> AndyS: hi
Andy Seaborne: hi [ Scribe Assist by Henry Story ] ←
10:43:13 <SteveBattle> Are you there Andy?
Steve Battle: Are you there Andy? ←
10:43:16 <Arnaud> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
10:43:32 <AndyS> Hello
Andy Seaborne: Hello ←
10:43:36 <krp> +1 to clearly scoped narrower issues
Kevin Page: +1 to clearly scoped narrower issues ←
10:43:46 <AndyS> On IRC
Andy Seaborne: On IRC ←
10:44:12 <AndyS> (can phone in but need time to move room and dial-in).
Andy Seaborne: (can phone in but need time to move room and dial-in). ←
10:44:28 <BartvanLeeuwen> AndyS, just read along
Bart van Leeuwen: AndyS, just read along ←
10:44:41 <cygri> AndyS, I'm going to create a new issue on managing weak aggregation, to subsume ISSUE-7
Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, I'm going to create a new issue on managing weak aggregation, to subsume ISSUE-7 ←
10:44:46 <sandro> AndyS, it's not clear what we're about to talk about next.
Sandro Hawke: AndyS, it's not clear what we're about to talk about next. ←
10:44:52 <AndyS> I am :-) Fascinating.
Andy Seaborne: I am :-) Fascinating. ←
10:45:12 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to create a new issue on managing weak aggregation, to subsume ISSUE-7; PATCH might be one way to do it
ACTION: cygri to create a new issue on managing weak aggregation, to subsume ISSUE-7; PATCH might be one way to do it ←
10:45:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-23 - Create a new issue on managing weak aggregation, to subsume ISSUE-7; PATCH might be one way to do it [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-11-09].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-23 - Create a new issue on managing weak aggregation, to subsume ISSUE-7; PATCH might be one way to do it [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-11-09]. ←
10:45:35 <SteveBattle> Resources under the same authority can be distributed across many servers.
Steve Battle: Resources under the same authority can be distributed across many servers. ←
10:45:39 <timbl_> ISSUE: Should the PATCH method be used, as oppose t POST with a given mime type? What systems can support PATCH easily? (tabulator uses POST but could change of course)
ISSUE: Should the PATCH method be used, as oppose t POST with a given mime type? What systems can support PATCH easily? (tabulator uses POST but could change of course) ←
10:45:39 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-27 - Should the PATCH method be used, as oppose t POST with a given mime type? What systems can support PATCH easily? (tabulator uses POST but could change of course) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/27/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-27 - Should the PATCH method be used, as oppose t POST with a given mime type? What systems can support PATCH easily? (tabulator uses POST but could change of course) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/27/edit . ←
10:45:39 <rgarcia> oberger, that is one problem of having strong aggregation using an URI schema. I we don't do it there should not be
Raúl García Castro: oberger, that is one problem of having strong aggregation using an URI schema. I we don't do it there should not be ←
10:45:59 <Arnaud> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
10:46:02 <bblfish> q-
Henry Story: q- ←
10:46:23 <betehess> PROPOSAL: close #25
PROPOSED: close #25 ←
10:46:30 <nmihindu> Arnaud: can we close ISSUE 25 now ?
Arnaud Le Hors: can we close ISSUE-25 now ? [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:46:57 <nmihindu> cygri: with the two actions created I think we can close the issue
Richard Cyganiak: with the two actions created I think we can close the issue [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:47:05 <bblfish> +1
Henry Story: +1 ←
10:47:06 <betehess> +1
Alexandre Bertails: +1 ←
10:47:09 <rgarcia> +1
Raúl García Castro: +1 ←
10:47:09 <krp> +1
Kevin Page: +1 ←
10:47:10 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
10:47:10 <svillata> +1
Serena Villata: +1 ←
10:47:11 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
10:47:11 <oberger> +1
Olivier Berger: +1 ←
10:47:14 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
10:47:21 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
10:47:22 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
Bart van Leeuwen: +1 ←
10:47:23 <SteveBattle> +1
Steve Battle: +1 ←
10:47:34 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
10:47:37 <antonis> +1
Antonis Loizou: +1 ←
10:47:41 <betehess> APPROVED: close #25
10:47:55 <betehess> RESOLVED: close #25
10:48:11 <betehess> RESOLVED: close ISSUE-25
10:48:19 <betehess> s/APPROVED: close #25//
10:48:25 <betehess> s/RESOLVED: close #25//
10:48:30 <oberger> q+ to know if we need to create an issue on examples only using resources on same server ans subpaths for (strong) composition
Olivier Berger: q+ to know if we need to create an issue on examples only using resources on same server ans subpaths for (strong) composition ←
10:48:45 <timbl_> Ooops I didn't mean to create an issue in the system. it let me create an issue but not edit it.
Tim Berners-Lee: Ooops I didn't mean to create an issue in the system. it let me create an issue but not edit it. ←
10:48:46 <Arnaud> ack oberger
Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger ←
10:48:46 <Zakim> oberger, you wanted to know if we need to create an issue on examples only using resources on same server ans subpaths for (strong) composition
Zakim IRC Bot: oberger, you wanted to know if we need to create an issue on examples only using resources on same server ans subpaths for (strong) composition ←
10:49:28 <timbl_> q+
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ ←
10:49:30 <SteveBattle> Isn't this kind of federation an implementation issue?
Steve Battle: Isn't this kind of federation an implementation issue? ←
10:49:38 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
10:49:41 <nmihindu> oberger: we should make explicit or provide examples that resources can be all over the world even with composition
Olivier Berger: we should make explicit or provide examples that resources can be all over the world even with composition [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:50:00 <bblfish> +1 for cygri: strong composition means you have to go through the container to create the resource.
Henry Story: +1 for cygri: strong composition means you have to go through the container to create the resource. ←
10:50:40 <nmihindu> cygri: strong composition usually implies it is created by the container on the same server
Richard Cyganiak: strong composition usually implies it is created by the container on the same server [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:51:18 <nmihindu> oberger: disagree, it could be possible to have something similar to factories in OOP
Olivier Berger: disagree, it could be possible to have something similar to factories in OOP [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:51:42 <webr3> how do you make an LDPC?
Nathan Rixham: how do you make an LDPC? ←
10:51:42 <betehess> q-
Alexandre Bertails: q- ←
10:52:07 <sandro> sandro: When you POST to create a resource in a container, it might be given a URL on a different host, yes. eg posting to api.example.com might make resources show up on {username}.example.com based on who did the post.
Sandro Hawke: When you POST to create a resource in a container, it might be given a URL on a different host, yes. eg posting to api.example.com might make resources show up on {username}.example.com based on who did the post. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
10:52:16 <nmihindu> Arnaud: oberger does not want the strong composition to imply the resources are on the same server
Arnaud Le Hors: oberger does not want the strong composition to imply the resources are on the same server [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:53:01 <JohnArwe> I think all olivier is asking for it to make at least one EXAMPLE show a container whose "output" member URI has no visible relationship to the container URI
John Arwe: I think all olivier is asking for it to make at least one EXAMPLE show a container whose "output" member URI has no visible relationship to the container URI ←
10:53:17 <nmihindu> oberger: The spec does not say that but people might have a misunderstanding without an explicit example
Olivier Berger: The spec does not say that but people might have a misunderstanding without an explicit example [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:53:19 <SteveBattle> A container SHOULD NOT manage resources under a different authority.
Steve Battle: A container SHOULD NOT manage resources under a different authority. ←
10:53:22 <rgarcia> +1 to having an example
Raúl García Castro: +1 to having an example ←
10:53:53 <cygri> PROPOSAL: State in the spec that composition doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server
PROPOSED: State in the spec that composition doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server ←
10:53:58 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
10:53:59 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
10:54:00 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
10:54:00 <rgarcia> +1
Raúl García Castro: +1 ←
10:54:02 <oberger> +1
Olivier Berger: +1 ←
10:54:02 <svillata> +1
Serena Villata: +1 ←
10:54:03 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
10:54:04 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
Bart van Leeuwen: +1 ←
10:54:05 <krp> +1
Kevin Page: +1 ←
10:54:06 <SteveBattle> -0
Steve Battle: -0 ←
10:54:09 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
10:54:09 <cygri> +0.2 sure why not
Richard Cyganiak: +0.2 sure why not ←
10:54:12 <JohnArwe> +1
10:54:13 <webr3> +1
Nathan Rixham: +1 ←
10:54:13 <betehess> +1
Alexandre Bertails: +1 ←
10:54:51 <timbl_> q+
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ ←
10:55:12 <nmihindu> SteveBattle: with my early proposal, they should be strictly in the same hierarchy
Steve Battle: with my early proposal, they should be strictly in the same hierarchy [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:55:17 <Arnaud> ack timbl
Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl ←
10:55:19 <sandro> SteveBattle: I like having the contained-item URLs be in the hierarchy under the container URLs
Steve Battle: I like having the contained-item URLs be in the hierarchy under the container URLs [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
10:55:57 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
10:56:05 <nmihindu> timbl: at some point we need to have the concept of ownership
Tim Berners-Lee: at some point we need to have the concept of ownership [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
10:56:28 <SteveBattle> Yes - I admit it - I do look at URL's - I don't always wear the opaque glasses.
Steve Battle: Yes - I admit it - I do look at URL's - I don't always wear the opaque glasses. ←
10:56:36 <bblfish> so the point is one of domain name ownership.
Henry Story: so the point is one of domain name ownership. ←
10:57:06 <krp> q+ So is there an issue that with strong containers deletion of a container deletes the members, but the client is not informed which member resources have been successfully deleted - it has to assume or guess?
Kevin Page: q+ So is there an issue that with strong containers deletion of a container deletes the members, but the client is not informed which member resources have been successfully deleted - it has to assume or guess? ←
10:57:14 <SteveBattle> I also like slugs.
Steve Battle: I also like slugs. ←
10:57:27 <rgarcia> +q to say that the directory structure can mislead clients when differentiating between paths and resources
Raúl García Castro: +q to say that the directory structure can mislead clients when differentiating between paths and resources ←
10:57:36 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
10:57:43 <bblfish> q-
Henry Story: q- ←
10:57:48 <krp> q+
Kevin Page: q+ ←
10:57:52 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+
Ashok Malhotra: q+ ←
10:58:50 <Arnaud> ack sandro
Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro ←
10:59:32 <JohnArwe> q+ to say coming from highly robust implementation background, making the members owned by the container's implementation does *improve your odds* but it is NOT an iron-clad guarantee against inconsistent results due to failures in underlying code layers
John Arwe: q+ to say coming from highly robust implementation background, making the members owned by the container's implementation does *improve your odds* but it is NOT an iron-clad guarantee against inconsistent results due to failures in underlying code layers ←
10:59:37 <bblfish> PROPOSAL: perhaps the example in the spec should be something close to the livesjournal example
PROPOSED: perhaps the example in the spec should be something close to the livesjournal example ←
10:59:43 <Arnaud> ack rgarcia
Arnaud Le Hors: ack rgarcia ←
10:59:43 <Zakim> rgarcia, you wanted to say that the directory structure can mislead clients when differentiating between paths and resources
Zakim IRC Bot: rgarcia, you wanted to say that the directory structure can mislead clients when differentiating between paths and resources ←
10:59:44 <cygri> sandro++
Richard Cyganiak: sandro++ ←
11:00:04 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
11:00:31 <Arnaud> ack krp
Arnaud Le Hors: ack krp ←
11:00:35 <nmihindu> rgarcia: in the url, can we assume every part of it is a resource ?
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: rgarcia: in the url, can we assume every part of it is a resource ? ←
11:00:50 <Ashok_Malhotra> q-
Ashok Malhotra: q- ←
11:00:50 <nmihindu> cygri: no
Richard Cyganiak: no [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
11:01:01 <timbl_> q+
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ ←
11:01:32 <svillata> q?
Serena Villata: q? ←
11:01:35 <cygri> webr3, all containers are resources too. if there are conflicts, it's a bug.
Richard Cyganiak: webr3, all containers are resources too. if there are conflicts, it's a bug. ←
11:02:17 <SteveBattle> Nothing to stop you using a PUT to create a container, or a POST if you have another container.
Steve Battle: Nothing to stop you using a PUT to create a container, or a POST if you have another container. ←
11:02:23 <timbl_> q+ to say that from client app point ov view, it is important to keep local data in sync with data in the LDP server, so please restrict results to "Your delete of the container worked" or "failed completely" but not "may be in any half-deleted state".
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ to say that from client app point ov view, it is important to keep local data in sync with data in the LDP server, so please restrict results to "Your delete of the container worked" or "failed completely" but not "may be in any half-deleted state". ←
11:02:52 <nmihindu> Arnaud: where do you stand in this proposal ?
Arnaud Le Hors: where do you stand in this proposal ? [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
11:03:00 <krp> with strong containers when the container is deleted the members should be deleted, but this isn't always possible (not on server, access control). This could be clarified by returning to the client the resources that have actually successfully been deleted (which may not be all members after all)
Kevin Page: with strong containers when the container is deleted the members should be deleted, but this isn't always possible (not on server, access control). This could be clarified by returning to the client the resources that have actually successfully been deleted (which may not be all members after all) ←
11:03:29 <Ashok_Malhotra> Tim is asking for transactions!
Ashok Malhotra: Tim is asking for transactions! ←
11:03:43 <webr3> +20 to transactions!
Nathan Rixham: +20 to transactions! ←
11:03:45 <JohnArwe> ...distributed trxns no less
John Arwe: ...distributed trxns no less ←
11:03:50 <sandro> tim: I'm okay with this proposal as long as it's clear the client can't just add something across the web to the "strong Container" and expect it too be deleted when the container is deleted!
Tim Berners-Lee: I'm okay with this proposal as long as it's clear the client can't just add something across the web to the "strong Container" and expect it too be deleted when the container is deleted! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:05:16 <rgarcia> cygri, yes, my only comment was that it can be misleading for clients
Raúl García Castro: cygri, yes, my only comment was that it can be misleading for clients ←
11:05:34 <oberger> q+ to ask if there's something wrong with 5.6.1
Olivier Berger: q+ to ask if there's something wrong with 5.6.1 ←
11:05:51 <nmihindu> timbl: I prefer the make sure the delete happens or say it is forbidden to delete
Tim Berners-Lee: I prefer the make sure the delete happens or say it is forbidden to delete [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
11:05:56 <Arnaud> ack john
Arnaud Le Hors: ack john ←
11:05:56 <Zakim> JohnArwe, you wanted to say coming from highly robust implementation background, making the members owned by the container's implementation does *improve your odds* but it is NOT
Zakim IRC Bot: JohnArwe, you wanted to say coming from highly robust implementation background, making the members owned by the container's implementation does *improve your odds* but it is NOT ←
11:05:59 <Zakim> ... an iron-clad guarantee against inconsistent results due to failures in underlying code layers
Zakim IRC Bot: ... an iron-clad guarantee against inconsistent results due to failures in underlying code layers ←
11:06:16 <melvster> hi all ... just following remotely :) melvster == Melvin Carvalho
Melvin Carvalho: hi all ... just following remotely :) melvster == Melvin Carvalho ←
11:06:58 <Arnaud> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
11:06:58 <bblfish> q-
Henry Story: q- ←
11:07:02 <sandro> issue-28?
11:07:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-28 -- transaction/rollback when deleting resources from a LDPC -- raised
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-28 -- transaction/rollback when deleting resources from a LDPC -- raised ←
11:07:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/28
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/28 ←
11:07:11 <Arnaud> ack timbl
Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl ←
11:07:11 <Zakim> timbl_, you wanted to say that from client app point ov view, it is important to keep local data in sync with data in the LDP server, so please restrict results to "Your delete of
Zakim IRC Bot: timbl_, you wanted to say that from client app point ov view, it is important to keep local data in sync with data in the LDP server, so please restrict results to "Your delete of ←
11:07:14 <Zakim> ... the container worked" or "failed completely" but not "may be in any half-deleted state".
Zakim IRC Bot: ... the container worked" or "failed completely" but not "may be in any half-deleted state". ←
11:07:21 <Arnaud> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
11:07:43 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
11:07:53 <krp> for the server to guarantee it can fully delete the container and all members, it must restrict the members it accepts to those it would be able to delete?
Kevin Page: for the server to guarantee it can fully delete the container and all members, it must restrict the members it accepts to those it would be able to delete? ←
11:08:10 <Arnaud> ack oberger
Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger ←
11:08:10 <Zakim> oberger, you wanted to ask if there's something wrong with 5.6.1
Zakim IRC Bot: oberger, you wanted to ask if there's something wrong with 5.6.1 ←
11:08:16 <timbl_> kip, the server never :"accep[ts" members -- it creates them
Tim Berners-Lee: krp, the server never :"accep[ts" members -- it creates them ←
11:08:29 <timbl_> so it can control them
Tim Berners-Lee: so it can control them ←
11:08:40 <nmihindu> oberger: Is there an issue with 5.6.1 ?
Olivier Berger: Is there an issue with 5.6.1 ? [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
11:08:41 <timbl_> s/kip/krp/
11:08:48 <sandro> earlier mostly-resolved: <cygri> PROPOSAL: State in the spec that composition doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server
Sandro Hawke: earlier mostly-resolved: <cygri> PROPOSAL: State in the spec that composition doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server ←
11:09:24 <timbl_> but point out that the resources will all be under the direct control of the same system.
Tim Berners-Lee: but point out that the resources will all be under the direct control of the same system. ←
11:09:25 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
11:09:42 <nmihindu> Arnaud: should we amend the proposal ?
Arnaud Le Hors: should we amend the proposal ? [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
11:09:48 <timbl_> PROPOSAL: State in the spec that composition doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server but point out that the resources will all be under the direct control of the same system.
Tim Berners-Lee: PROPOSAL: State in the spec that composition doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server but point out that the resources will all be under the direct control of the same system. ←
11:09:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
11:10:14 <nmihindu> bblfish: we can add an example to the spec with a concrete case
Henry Story: we can add an example to the spec with a concrete case [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
11:10:18 <sandro> PROPOSAL: State in the spec that composition doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even have the same "host" part of the URL. Try to have example that motivates it, such as livejournal cross-origin issue
PROPOSED: State in the spec that composition doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even have the same "host" part of the URL. Try to have example that motivates it, such as livejournal cross-origin issue ←
11:10:23 <betehess> can we just decouple creation from deletion for now?
Alexandre Bertails: can we just decouple creation from deletion for now? ←
11:10:57 <SteveBattle> My concern is that I'm a fan of human readable URIs - which kind of implies hierarchy <vhttp://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/114>
Steve Battle: My concern is that I'm a fan of human readable URIs - which kind of implies hierarchy <vhttp://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/114> ←
11:11:24 <nmihindu> krp: direct control potion of timl is important
Kevin Page: direct control potion of timl is important [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
11:11:46 <sandro> SteveBattle, I think that's a Best Practice, not something we should mandate.
Sandro Hawke: SteveBattle, I think that's a Best Practice, not something we should mandate. ←
11:12:28 <SteveBattle> Yeah - I'm happy with that 'MUST' in the proposal.
Steve Battle: Yeah - I'm happy with that 'MUST' in the proposal. ←
11:12:44 <sandro> +1 cygri since the server had the power to CREATE the resource, presumably it has the power to DELETE it.
Sandro Hawke: +1 cygri since the server had the power to CREATE the resource, presumably it has the power to DELETE it. ←
11:12:55 <Arnaud> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
11:13:02 <nmihindu> cygri: if the container has the power to create a resource probably it has the power to delete it
Richard Cyganiak: if the container has the power to create a resource probably it has the power to delete it [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
11:13:10 <cygri> How about this: Composition means that resources are created only through the container; however it doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server
Richard Cyganiak: How about this: Composition means that resources are created only through the container; however it doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server ←
11:13:29 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
11:13:33 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
Bart van Leeuwen: +1 ←
11:13:35 <rgarcia> +1
Raúl García Castro: +1 ←
11:13:36 <SteveBattle> +1
Steve Battle: +1 ←
11:13:48 <JohnArwe> hold on, the server creates it under the access controls of the authenticated user. ditto delete. those are different requests, potentially coming from different principals, and there may be method-level permissions involved.
John Arwe: hold on, the server creates it under the access controls of the authenticated user. ditto delete. those are different requests, potentially coming from different principals, and there may be method-level permissions involved. ←
11:13:57 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
11:14:00 <svillata> +1
Serena Villata: +1 ←
11:14:22 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
11:14:23 <krp> the "direct control" part is more important for deletion. I think Tim's point was that we make deleting a (strong) container clear by putting the requirement on the server to control those resources - and it controls that from creation
Kevin Page: the "direct control" part is more important for deletion. I think Tim's point was that we make deleting a (strong) container clear by putting the requirement on the server to control those resources - and it controls that from creation ←
11:14:31 <nmihindu> Ashok: do you need to follow up it with the information about delete ?
Ashok Malhotra: do you need to follow up it with the information about delete ? [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
11:14:37 <SteveBattle> Just checking - does that mean 'subordinate resources'. We can still create stand-alone resources some other way - yes?
Steve Battle: Just checking - does that mean 'subordinate resources'. We can still create stand-alone resources some other way - yes? ←
11:14:52 <timbl_> The server takes on responsibility for being able to efficiently delete the new resource when the container is deleted.
Tim Berners-Lee: The server takes on responsibility for being able to efficiently delete the new resource when the container is deleted. ←
11:15:09 <nmihindu> cygri: The follow up with create a long discussion it is better to stick with this
Richard Cyganiak: The follow up will create a long discussion it is better to stick will this [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
11:15:18 <cygri> JohnArwe, absolutely anything can fail due to access control
Richard Cyganiak: JohnArwe, absolutely anything can fail due to access control ←
11:15:23 <nmihindu> s/with/will
11:15:29 <cygri> PROPOSAL: Composition means that resources are created only through the container; however it doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server
PROPOSED: Composition means that resources are created only through the container; however it doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server ←
11:15:32 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
11:15:34 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
11:15:34 <rgarcia> +1
Raúl García Castro: +1 ←
11:15:35 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
11:15:36 <svillata> +1
Serena Villata: +1 ←
11:15:36 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
11:15:36 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
11:15:37 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
11:15:37 <betehess> +1
Alexandre Bertails: +1 ←
11:15:37 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
Bart van Leeuwen: +1 ←
11:15:37 <krp> +1
Kevin Page: +1 ←
11:15:39 <bblfish> +1
Henry Story: +1 ←
11:15:40 <oberger> +1
Olivier Berger: +1 ←
11:15:43 <ahaller2> +1
Armin Haller: +1 ←
11:15:44 <SteveBattle> ???
Steve Battle: ??? ←
11:15:47 <JohnArwe> +1
11:15:48 <antonis> +1
Antonis Loizou: +1 ←
11:15:49 <timbl_> +1
Tim Berners-Lee: +1 ←
11:15:53 <Yves> =0
Yves Lafon: =0 ←
11:16:15 <SteveBattle> +1
Steve Battle: +1 ←
11:16:25 <nmihindu> SteveBattle: is this just taking about the resources created by a container ?
Steve Battle: is this just taking about the resources created by a container ? [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
11:16:35 <nmihindu> cygri: yes
Richard Cyganiak: yes [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
11:16:54 <SteveBattle> "resources are created ONLY through the container" - what's the scope of that?
Steve Battle: "resources are created ONLY through the container" - what's the scope of that? ←
11:17:04 <JohnArwe> I do seem to remember existing text saying that containers were allowed to add members through other means outside the spec, so "created only through the container" MIGHT conflict with that.
John Arwe: I do seem to remember existing text saying that containers were allowed to add members through other means outside the spec, so "created only through the container" MIGHT conflict with that. ←
11:17:28 <nmihindu> RESOLVED: Composition means that resources are created only through the container; however it doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server
RESOLVED: Composition means that resources are created only through the container; however it doesn't mean that the resources must reside in the same hierarchy or even on the same server ←
11:18:09 <nmihindu> Arnaud: Do we need to change the text in 5.6.1 in the spec ?
Arnaud Le Hors: Do we need to change the text in 5.6.1 in the spec ? [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
11:18:12 <SteveBattle> Can we have minuted clarification of that last point?
Steve Battle: Can we have minuted clarification of that last point? ←
11:18:42 <nmihindu> SteveS: yes, it is an editorial change.
Steve Speicher: yes, it is an editorial change. [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
11:18:43 <Arnaud> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
11:18:43 <cygri> q?
Richard Cyganiak: q? ←
11:18:47 <sandro> looks like 5.6.1 turns int o a MUST. Deleting a container means MUST delete containted resources.
Sandro Hawke: looks like 5.6.1 turns int o a MUST. Deleting a container means MUST delete containted resources. ←
11:18:53 <rgarcia> +q to remark JohnArwe 's comment
Raúl García Castro: +q to remark JohnArwe 's comment ←
11:19:32 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
11:19:45 <bblfish> MUST does not mean it cannot fail
Henry Story: MUST does not mean it cannot fail ←
11:19:48 <krp> +q to say some of these are errors
Kevin Page: +q to say some of these are errors ←
11:20:20 <nmihindu> cygri: MUST not be possible for various reasons, we can change it to SHOULD or say the server must notify if something bad happens
Richard Cyganiak: MUST not be possible for various reasons, we can change it to SHOULD or say the server must notify if something bad happens [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
11:20:30 <betehess> but these things are already defined in HTTP!
Alexandre Bertails: but these things are already defined in HTTP! ←
11:20:52 <rgarcia> +1 to indicate that the server must notify the client when something wrong happens
Raúl García Castro: +1 to indicate that the server must notify the client when something wrong happens ←
11:21:13 <nmihindu> Arnaud: it is common case for many issues, though it is a MUST, errors can happen
Arnaud Le Hors: it is common case for many issues, though it is a MUST, errors can happen [ Scribe Assist by Nandana Mihindukulasooriya ] ←
12:35:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-irc
(No events recorded for 74 minutes)
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-irc ←
12:36:01 <betehess> RRSAgent, please make minutes
Alexandre Bertails: RRSAgent, please make minutes ←
12:36:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-minutes.html betehess
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-minutes.html betehess ←
12:36:49 <rgarcia> q?
Raúl García Castro: q? ←
12:36:57 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←
12:36:57 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-irc#T12-36-57
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-ldp-irc#T12-36-57 ←
12:38:03 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone
Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, who's on the phone ←
12:38:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's on the phone', Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who's on the phone', Arnaud ←
12:38:13 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, who's on the phone? ←
12:38:13 <Zakim> sorry, Arnaud, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Arnaud, I don't know what conference this is ←
12:38:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see timbl, cygri, nmihindu, RRSAgent, Zakim, svillata, bblfish, rgarcia, AndyS, betehess, oberger, webr3, melvster, krp, antonis, jmvanel, Yves, sandro, Arnaud, ericP,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see timbl, cygri, nmihindu, RRSAgent, Zakim, svillata, bblfish, rgarcia, AndyS, betehess, oberger, webr3, melvster, krp, antonis, jmvanel, Yves, sandro, Arnaud, ericP, ←
12:38:14 <Zakim> ... ahaller2, JohnArwe, jonathandray, LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: ... ahaller2, JohnArwe, jonathandray, LeeF ←
12:38:31 <sandro> zakim, this is ldp
Sandro Hawke: zakim, this is ldp ←
12:38:31 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_LDP()2:30AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; that matches SW_LDP()2:30AM ←
12:38:39 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is here? ←
12:38:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see St_Clair_3B
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see St_Clair_3B ←
12:38:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see timbl, cygri, nmihindu, RRSAgent, Zakim, svillata, bblfish, rgarcia, AndyS, betehess, oberger, webr3, melvster, krp, antonis, jmvanel, Yves, sandro, Arnaud, ericP,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see timbl, cygri, nmihindu, RRSAgent, Zakim, svillata, bblfish, rgarcia, AndyS, betehess, oberger, webr3, melvster, krp, antonis, jmvanel, Yves, sandro, Arnaud, ericP, ←
12:38:40 <Zakim> ... ahaller2, JohnArwe, jonathandray, LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: ... ahaller2, JohnArwe, jonathandray, LeeF ←
12:39:15 <rgarcia> scribenick rgarcia
Raúl García Castro: scribenick rgarcia ←
12:39:22 <cygri> �scribenick: rgarcia
Richard Cyganiak: �scribenick: rgarcia ←
12:39:50 <rgarcia> Arnaud: let's talk about the agenda this afternoon
Arnaud Le Hors: let's talk about the agenda this afternoon [ Scribe Assist by Raúl García Castro ] ←
12:41:16 <rgarcia> ... we should add a deadline for the ACL note
Raúl García Castro: ... we should add a timeline for the ACL note ←
12:41:35 <rgarcia> s/deadline/timeline/
12:42:43 <sandro> topic: Test Suite & Validator
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#4) generated 2012-11-02 12:52:28 UTC by 'sandro', comments: None