<sandro> Guest: Ivan Herman, W3C
<sandro> Guest: chong Gu, Huawei
<sandro> Guest: Francois (tidoust) Daoust, Joshfire
<sandro> Guest: Jonathan Dray
<sandro> Guest: Hadley Beeman, LinkedGov
<cygri> guest: Fabien Gandon
<cygri> guest: Tim (timbl) Berners-Lee
<cygri> guest: Nathan (webr3) Rixham
<sandro> guest: Bernadette Hyland
<sandro> Present: David, Sandro, Raúl, Nandana, EricP, Cygri, Bart, Kevin, Ruben, Arnaud, Ashok, Serena, Alexandre, SteveS, Henry, Armin, Antonis, Olivier, SteveB, Roger
<sandro> Around Table, in order: Ivan, David, Sandro, Chong, Raúl, Nandana, EricP, Richard, Bart, Kevin, Ruben, Arnaud, Ashok, Serena, Alexandre, SteveS, Henry, Armin, Antonis, Francois, Olivier, SteveB, Roger
Sandro Hawke: Around Table, in order: Ivan, David, Sandro, Chong, Raúl, Nandana, EricP, Richard, Bart, Kevin, Ruben, Arnaud, Ashok, Serena, Alexandre, SteveS, Henry, Armin, Antonis, Francois, Olivier, SteveB, Roger ←
<sandro> Around Edge of Room: Hadley, Jonathan, unknown
Sandro Hawke: Around Edge of Room: Hadley, Jonathan, unknown ←
<sandro> Remote: AndyS, Yves, Arwe, macted
07:57:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-irc ←
07:57:44 <betehess> RRSAgent, please generate minutes
Alexandre Bertails: RRSAgent, please generate minutes ←
07:57:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-minutes.html betehess
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-minutes.html betehess ←
07:58:05 <betehess> chair: Arnaud
07:58:23 <ArnaudLH> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Day_1_-_November_1st
07:58:59 <betehess> betehess has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Day_1_-_November_1st -- please do add yourself [ present+ Alexandre_Bertails ]
Alexandre Bertails: betehess has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Day_1_-_November_1st -- please do add yourself [ present+ Alexandre_Bertails ] ←
07:59:08 <betehess> present+ Alexandre_Bertails
Alexandre Bertails: present+ Alexandre_Bertails ←
07:59:14 <betehess> betehess has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Day_1_-_November_1st -- please do add yourself [ present+ Alexandre_Bertails ] (no space)
Alexandre Bertails: betehess has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Day_1_-_November_1st -- please do add yourself [ present+ Alexandre_Bertails ] (no space) ←
07:59:26 <betehess> betehess has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Day_1_-_November_1st -- please do add yourself, eg. [ present+ Alexandre_Bertails ] (no space)
Alexandre Bertails: betehess has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Day_1_-_November_1st -- please do add yourself, eg. [ present+ Alexandre_Bertails ] (no space) ←
07:59:57 <oberger> who said arrival, coffee in the program ?
Olivier Berger: who said arrival, coffee in the program ? ←
08:07:12 <Ruben> present+ Ruben_Verborgh
(No events recorded for 7 minutes)
Ruben Verborgh: present+ Ruben_Verborgh ←
08:07:28 <betehess> s|who said arrival, coffee in the program ?||
Alexandre Bertails: s|who said arrival, coffee in the program ?|| ←
08:07:29 <oberger> present+ Olivier Berger
Olivier Berger: present+ Olivier_Berger ←
08:07:40 <betehess> s/Olivier Berger/Olivier_Berger/
08:08:11 <betehess> betehess has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Day_1_-_November_1st -- please do add yourself, eg. [ present+ Alexandre_Bertails ] (NO_SPACE)
Alexandre Bertails: betehess has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Day_1_-_November_1st -- please do add yourself, eg. [ present+ Alexandre_Bertails ] (NO_SPACE) ←
08:08:41 <jonathandray> present+ Jonathan Dray
Jonathan Dray: present+ Jonathan_Dray ←
08:08:52 <betehess> s/Jonathan Dray/Jonathan_Dray/
08:09:00 <roger> present+ Roger Menday
Roger Menday: present+ Roger_Menday ←
08:09:11 <betehess> s/Roger Menday/Roger_Menday/
08:09:13 <ericP> Zakim, please dial St_Clair_3B
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial St_Clair_3B ←
08:09:13 <Zakim> sorry, ericP, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ericP, I don't know what conference this is ←
08:09:22 <SteveBattle> Do we have a hashtag?
Steve Battle: Do we have a hashtag? ←
08:09:43 <ericP> Zakim, please this ldp
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please this ldp ←
08:09:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'please this ldp', ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'please this ldp', ericP ←
08:09:50 <ericP> Zakim, please this is ldp
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please this is ldp ←
08:09:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'please this is ldp', ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'please this is ldp', ericP ←
08:09:55 <ericP> Zakim, this is ldp
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, this is ldp ←
08:09:55 <Zakim> ericP, I see SW_LDP()2:30AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be ldp".
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, I see SW_LDP()2:30AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be ldp". ←
08:09:59 <SteveS> present+ SteveSpeicher
Steve Speicher: present+ SteveSpeicher ←
08:10:03 <ericP> Zakim, please dial St_Clair_3B
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial St_Clair_3B ←
08:10:03 <Zakim> sorry, ericP, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ericP, I don't know what conference this is ←
08:10:05 <BartvanLeeuwen> present+ BartvanLeeuwen
Bart van Leeuwen: present+ BartvanLeeuwen ←
08:10:13 <ericP> Zakim, this will be ldp
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, this will be ldp ←
08:10:13 <Zakim> ok, ericP; I see SW_LDP()2:30AM scheduled to start 100 minutes ago
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; I see SW_LDP()2:30AM scheduled to start 100 minutes ago ←
08:10:14 <ericP> Zakim, please dial St_Clair_3B
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial St_Clair_3B ←
08:10:14 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made ←
08:10:15 <Zakim> SW_LDP()2:30AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()2:30AM has now started ←
08:10:16 <Zakim> +St_Clair_3B
Zakim IRC Bot: +St_Clair_3B ←
08:10:21 <ArnaudLH> present+ Arnaud_Le_Hors
Arnaud Le Hors: present+ Arnaud_Le_Hors ←
08:10:26 <betehess> RRSAgent, please make minutes
Alexandre Bertails: RRSAgent, please make minutes ←
08:10:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-minutes.html betehess
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-minutes.html betehess ←
08:10:38 <oberger> SteveBattle, https://twitter.com/LDPWG i.e. @LDPWG seems an option
Olivier Berger: SteveBattle, https://twitter.com/LDPWG i.e. @LDPWG seems an option ←
08:10:40 <ericP> Zakim, please dial St_Clair_3B
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial St_Clair_3B ←
08:10:40 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made ←
08:10:41 <Zakim> +St_Clair_3B.a
Zakim IRC Bot: +St_Clair_3B.a ←
08:10:50 <Zakim> -St_Clair_3B
Zakim IRC Bot: -St_Clair_3B ←
08:11:15 <ericP> Zakim, St_Clair_3B.a is St_Clair_3B
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, St_Clair_3B.a is St_Clair_3B ←
08:11:15 <Zakim> +St_Clair_3B; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +St_Clair_3B; got it ←
08:11:29 <oberger> ArnaudLH, are you the owner of @LDPWG ?
Olivier Berger: ArnaudLH, are you the owner of @LDPWG ? ←
08:13:39 <ArnaudLH> oberger: Erik is
Olivier Berger: Erik is [ Scribe Assist by Arnaud Le Hors ] ←
08:14:05 <oberger> but #LDPWG may be an interesting hashtag
Olivier Berger: but #LDPWG may be an interesting hashtag ←
08:14:35 <ericP> Zakim, who is here?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, who is here? ←
08:14:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see St_Clair_3B
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see St_Clair_3B ←
08:14:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see davidwood, rgarcia, antonis, Ashok_Malhotra, nmihindu, roger, jonathandray, SteveBattle, AndyS, Ruben, FabGandon, chsiao_, svillata, ivan, tidoust, RRSAgent,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see davidwood, rgarcia, antonis, Ashok_Malhotra, nmihindu, roger, jonathandray, SteveBattle, AndyS, Ruben, FabGandon, chsiao_, svillata, ivan, tidoust, RRSAgent, ←
08:14:36 <Zakim> ... BartvanLeeuwen, Zakim, ArnaudLH, betehess, oberger, SteveS, ahaller2
Zakim IRC Bot: ... BartvanLeeuwen, Zakim, ArnaudLH, betehess, oberger, SteveS, ahaller2 ←
08:14:37 <betehess> can you avoid uppercase?
Alexandre Bertails: can you avoid uppercase? ←
08:14:45 <betehess> eg. ldpwg
Alexandre Bertails: eg. ldpwg ←
08:15:07 <oberger> betehess, I guess it doesn matter much for twitter web app
Olivier Berger: betehess, I guess it doesn matter much for twitter web app ←
08:15:19 <oberger> but yes lowercase if you will
Olivier Berger: but yes lowercase if you will ←
08:16:29 <davidwood> Yes, twitter tags are case insensitive.
David Wood: Yes, twitter tags are case insensitive. ←
08:17:00 <SteveBattle> Where's the coffee?
Steve Battle: Where's the coffee? ←
08:17:40 <oberger> SteveBattle, shouldn't we ask Zakim ?
Olivier Berger: SteveBattle, shouldn't we ask Zakim ? ←
08:17:53 <oberger> crappy bots
Olivier Berger: crappy bots ←
08:18:03 <SteveBattle> zakim, where's the coffee?
Steve Battle: zakim, where's the coffee? ←
08:18:03 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, SteveBattle.
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, SteveBattle. ←
08:18:46 <Ruben> *Hyper Text Coffee Pot Control Protocol http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2324*
Ruben Verborgh: *Hyper Text Coffee Pot Control Protocol http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2324* ←
08:19:45 <oberger> Ruben, would it make a use case to control a coffee pot through REST and RDF ?
Olivier Berger: Ruben, would it make a use case to control a coffee pot through REST and RDF ? ←
08:20:04 <Ruben> This could actually convince a lot of developers to turn to RDF.
Ruben Verborgh: This could actually convince a lot of developers to turn to RDF. ←
08:20:38 <oberger> using coffeescript ?
Olivier Berger: using coffeescript ? ←
08:21:30 <davidwood> http://coffeescript.org/
David Wood: http://coffeescript.org/ ←
08:30:41 <oberger> let's get it started
(No events recorded for 9 minutes)
Olivier Berger: let's get it started ←
08:30:53 <oberger> ArnaudLH, addressing us
Olivier Berger: ArnaudLH, addressing us ←
08:31:03 <betehess> topic: Welcome, logistics, short intro round, recap of meeting goals, agenda amendments
08:31:09 <betehess> scribenick: betehess
(Scribe set to Alexandre Bertails)
08:31:33 <betehess> ArnaudLH: let's go around the table, introduce yourself
Arnaud Le Hors: let's go around the table, introduce yourself ←
08:31:59 <betehess> ivan: Ivan Herman, W3C semweb lead
Ivan Herman: Ivan Herman, W3C semweb lead ←
08:32:05 <betehess> ... here as an observer
... here as an observer ←
08:32:46 <betehess> davidwood: David Wood, RDF WG
David Wood: David Wood, RDF WG ←
08:32:53 <Zakim> +Yves
Zakim IRC Bot: +Yves ←
08:32:53 <betehess> ... but also member of this group
... but also member of this group ←
08:33:34 <chong> chong
08:34:02 <rgarcia> rgarcia: Raúl GarcÃa-Castro, Ontology Engineering Group, Universidad Politécnica de Madrid
Raúl García Castro: Raúl GarcÃa-Castro, Ontology Engineering Group, Universidad Politécnica de Madrid [ Scribe Assist by Raúl García Castro ] ←
08:34:13 <nmihindu> Nandana Mihindukulasooriya from Ontology Engineering Group, Universidad Politécnica de Madrid
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Nandana Mihindukulasooriya from Ontology Engineering Group, Universidad Politécnica de Madrid ←
08:34:15 <ericP> Eric Prud'hommeaux
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Eric Prud'hommeaux ←
08:35:14 <cygri> Richard Cyganiak, DERI
Richard Cyganiak: Richard Cyganiak, DERI ←
08:35:34 <Ruben> Ruben / Ghent University â iMinds / PhD student Semantic Web & Web APIs
Ruben Verborgh: Ruben / Ghent University â iMinds / PhD student Semantic Web & Web APIs ←
08:35:36 <krp> Kevin Page, University of Oxford
Kevin Page: Kevin Page, University of Oxford ←
08:35:41 <BartvanLeeuwen> Bart van Leeuwen netage.nl (Startup Member)/ Fire Fighter Amsterdam
Bart van Leeuwen: Bart van Leeuwen netage.nl (Startup Member)/ Fire Fighter Amsterdam ←
08:35:51 <betehess> Alexandre Bertails aka. betehess, W3C Systeam Team. Already working actively on LDP implementation at https://github.com/w3c/banana-rdf
Alexandre Bertails aka. betehess, W3C Systeam Team. Already working actively on LDP implementation at https://github.com/w3c/banana-rdf ←
08:36:05 <SteveS> I'm Steve Speicher from IBM
Steve Speicher: I'm Steve Speicher from IBM ←
08:36:06 <svillata> Serena Villata, INRIA Sophia Antipolis
Serena Villata: Serena Villata, INRIA Sophia Antipolis ←
08:36:16 <antonis> Antonis Loizou, post-doc Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam
Antonis Loizou: Antonis Loizou, post-doc Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam ←
08:36:17 <ahaller2> Armin Haller
Armin Haller: Armin Haller ←
08:36:50 <oberger> Olivier Berger aka oberger/olberger/obergix from Institut Telecom / Télécom SudParis
Olivier Berger: Olivier Berger aka oberger/olberger/obergix from Institut Telecom / Télécom SudParis ←
08:36:51 <tidoust> Francois Daoust from Joshfire. Working on JSON-LD within RDF WG. Observer.
Francois Daoust: Francois Daoust from Joshfire. Working on JSON-LD within RDF WG. Observer. ←
08:37:10 <SteveBattle> Steve Battle
Steve Battle: Steve Battle ←
08:38:25 <betehess> jonathandray: Jonathan Dray
Jonathan Dray: Jonathan Dray ←
08:39:06 <ericP> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
08:39:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see St_Clair_3B, Yves
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see St_Clair_3B, Yves ←
08:39:43 <jonathandray> Jonathan Dray, I worked for a Company called Social Computing on "Just Map It", a data mapping solution. I also worked on a project called SPAR for the BNF on data preservation with Alexandre Bertails. I an here as an observer.
Jonathan Dray: Jonathan Dray, I worked for a Company called Social Computing on "Just Map It", a data mapping solution. I also worked on a project called SPAR for the BNF on data preservation with Alexandre Bertails. I an here as an observer. ←
08:40:21 <AndyS> Andy Seaborne, Apache Software Foundation. Work with linked data building customer solutions. Also work on Apache Jena.
Andy Seaborne: Andy Seaborne, Apache Software Foundation. Work with linked data building customer solutions. Also work on Apache Jena. ←
08:40:38 <betehess> ArnaudLH: thanks all
Arnaud Le Hors: thanks all ←
08:40:49 <betehess> ... the agenda was a bit of a challenge
... the agenda was a bit of a challenge ←
08:41:03 <betehess> ... still on the early days
... still on the early days ←
08:41:16 <betehess> ... two main topics
... two main topics ←
08:41:30 <betehess> ... tried to split everything in chunks
... tried to split everything in chunks ←
08:41:41 <betehess> ... also tried to take timezones into accounts
... also tried to take timezones into accounts ←
08:41:54 <betehess> ... I'm flexible about these things
... I'm flexible about these things ←
08:42:18 <betehess> ... as AndyS was the only one to express specific interests in some topics, I'll try to honor them
... as AndyS was the only one to express specific interests in some topics, I'll try to honor them ←
08:42:24 <betehess> ... no other constraint
... no other constraint ←
08:42:41 <betehess> ... so just tell me to "move on"
... so just tell me to "move on" ←
08:42:58 <betehess> davidwood: how many people new to w3c?
David Wood: how many people new to w3c? ←
08:43:23 <betehess> [only a few]
[only a few] ←
08:44:04 <betehess> ArnaudLH: any question about the process, then just ask
Arnaud Le Hors: any question about the process, then just ask ←
08:44:09 <betehess> ... it's a nice place, don't worry
... it's a nice place, don't worry ←
08:44:53 <betehess> ArnaudLH is going through http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Objectives
ArnaudLH is going through http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/F2F1#Objectives ←
08:45:06 <betehess> ArnaudLH: I went back to the charter
Arnaud Le Hors: I went back to the charter ←
08:45:08 <oberger> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/charter
Olivier Berger: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/charter ←
08:45:25 <betehess> ... we need to start speaking about some stuff
... we need to start speaking about some stuff ←
08:45:30 <betehess> ... eg. test suite
... eg. test suite ←
08:45:34 <betehess> ... and validator
... and validator ←
08:45:50 <betehess> ... lots of discussion during charter writing about ACLs
... lots of discussion during charter writing about ACLs ←
08:46:03 <betehess> ... some wanted that as a MUST
... some wanted that as a MUST ←
08:46:21 <betehess> ... could be a disaster for some, but for others, the platform may not make sense without it
... could be a disaster for some, but for others, the platform may not make sense without it ←
08:46:31 <betehess> ... the compromise was: a NOTE defining the requirements
... the compromise was: a NOTE defining the requirements ←
08:46:39 <betehess> ... these are the main deliverables
... these are the main deliverables ←
08:46:48 <betehess> ... also want to discuss next f2f meeting
... also want to discuss next f2f meeting ←
08:47:24 <betehess> ... the FPWD is basically the SUBMISSION annotated with issues
... the FPWD is basically the SUBMISSION annotated with issues ←
08:47:26 <oberger> FPWD http://www.w3.org/TR/ldp/
Olivier Berger: FPWD http://www.w3.org/TR/ldp/ ←
08:47:33 <betehess> ... we'lll go through the list of issues
... we'lll go through the list of issues ←
08:47:44 <betehess> q+
q+ ←
08:48:16 <betehess> ... also I want to discuss the path forward to REC
... also I want to discuss the path forward to REC ←
08:48:34 <betehess> ... glad to say that the group seems to have started doing good job
... glad to say that the group seems to have started doing good job ←
08:48:40 <betehess> ... eg. the FPWD
... eg. the FPWD ←
08:49:09 <betehess> ... again, we do have a charter, we need to try to stick to it as much of possible
... again, we do have a charter, we need to try to stick to it as much of possible ←
08:49:28 <betehess> ... regarding use case and requirements doc, it's a bit different
... regarding use case and requirements doc, it's a bit different ←
08:49:34 <betehess> ... not published it yet
... not published it yet ←
08:49:44 <betehess> ... we need to decide what this doc is really about
... we need to decide what this doc is really about ←
08:50:06 <betehess> ... steeve did a great job to put it together
... steeve did a great job to put it together ←
08:50:06 <betehess> ... but some stuff does not belong there
... but some stuff does not belong there ←
08:50:08 <oberger> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Use_Cases_And_Requirements
Olivier Berger: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Use_Cases_And_Requirements ←
08:50:21 <betehess> ... but the plan was to put everything you wanted there first
... but the plan was to put everything you wanted there first ←
08:50:37 <betehess> Ashok_Malhotra: if you add a requirement
Ashok Malhotra: if you add a requirement ←
08:50:47 <ericP> q+ to ask SteveS if we should be looking at the editor's draft while discussing the LDP draft
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to ask SteveS if we should be looking at the editor's draft while discussing the LDP draft ←
08:50:47 <betehess> ... and the spec does not address it
... and the spec does not address it ←
08:50:53 <betehess> ... then it can be a problem
... then it can be a problem ←
08:51:21 <betehess> ack eri
ack eri ←
08:51:21 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask SteveS if we should be looking at the editor's draft while discussing the LDP draft
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to ask SteveS if we should be looking at the editor's draft while discussing the LDP draft ←
08:51:39 <betehess> ericP: is there something new in the ED since the FPWD?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: is there something new in the ED since the FPWD? ←
08:51:43 <betehess> ... where should be look at
... where should be look at ←
08:51:57 <betehess> steeve: not change much
Steve Speicher: not change much ←
08:51:59 <betehess> ... only locally
... only locally ←
08:52:17 <oberger> s/steeve/SteveS/
08:52:37 <betehess> ack me
ack me ←
08:53:09 <oberger> betehess: prioritize issues for people only present today
Alexandre Bertails: prioritize issues for people only present today [ Scribe Assist by Olivier Berger ] ←
08:53:36 <betehess> q+
q+ ←
08:54:03 <betehess> oberger: would like to hear about implementations and validation
Olivier Berger: would like to hear about implementations and validation ←
08:54:27 <betehess> ... even if it's not mandatory in the charter
... even if it's not mandatory in the charter ←
08:54:34 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
08:54:40 <betehess> SteveS: wanted to review the path of the spec
Steve Speicher: wanted to review the path of the spec ←
08:54:45 <betehess> ... and the schedule
... and the schedule ←
08:55:06 <betehess> davidwood: maybe a wiki page for listing implementations
David Wood: maybe a wiki page for listing implementations ←
08:55:13 <betehess> ArnaudLH: good idea
Arnaud Le Hors: good idea ←
08:55:52 <betehess> ... the goal is to discuss the usecase and requirements this morning
... the goal is to discuss the usecase and requirements this morning ←
08:55:54 <oberger> q+ on which target audience we're seeking
Olivier Berger: q+ on which target audience we're seeking ←
08:56:02 <betehess> ... and the spec this afternoon
... and the spec this afternoon ←
08:56:42 <betehess> ArnaudLH: is this reasonable for now?
Arnaud Le Hors: is this reasonable for now? ←
08:56:59 <betehess> oberger: maybe would like to remind the target of this WG
Olivier Berger: maybe would like to remind the target of this WG ←
08:57:13 <betehess> ... eg, yesterday there was discussion about LD for devs
... eg, yesterday there was discussion about LD for devs ←
08:57:18 <betehess> ... Javascript was important
... Javascript was important ←
08:57:25 <betehess> q+
q+ ←
08:57:36 <betehess> ... just want to understand the objectives
... just want to understand the objectives ←
08:57:57 <betehess> ... would like to understand the stakeholders
... would like to understand the stakeholders ←
08:58:09 <betehess> ArnaudLH: what's your objective?
Arnaud Le Hors: what's your objective? ←
08:58:18 <betehess> oberger: understand better what is out of scope
Olivier Berger: understand better what is out of scope ←
08:58:30 <betehess> ... so fat, it's about resources and containers
... so fat, it's about resources and containers ←
08:58:44 <betehess> ... so people mentioned some other datastructures
... so people mentioned some other datastructures ←
08:59:15 <ArnaudLH> ack betehess
Arnaud Le Hors: ack betehess ←
08:59:47 <ArnaudLH> ack oberger
Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger ←
08:59:47 <Zakim> oberger, you wanted to comment on which target audience we're seeking
Zakim IRC Bot: oberger, you wanted to comment on which target audience we're seeking ←
09:00:02 <tidoust> betehess: I believe that it is clearly out of scope if you look at the charter. We may revisit that later on but should focus on what's on the charter. The topic is very important for me, but we need to stay focused.
Alexandre Bertails: I believe that it is clearly out of scope if you look at the charter. We may revisit that later on but should focus on what's on the charter. The topic is very important for me, but we need to stay focused. [ Scribe Assist by Francois Daoust ] ←
09:00:15 <betehess> ArnaudLH: the first answer in the charter
Arnaud Le Hors: the first answer in the charter ←
09:00:24 <betehess> ... defines the goals
... defines the goals ←
09:00:30 <betehess> ... then the usecase and requirement refine that
... then the usecase and requirement refine that ←
09:00:43 <betehess> ... we may conclude that we need something else
... we may conclude that we need something else ←
09:01:39 <betehess> oberger: if you look at the usecase, there are plenty of them, some redundant
Olivier Berger: if you look at the usecase, there are plenty of them, some redundant ←
09:01:48 <betehess> ... only a few requirements
... only a few requirements ←
09:02:10 <betehess> ... maybe we'll see a whole range of other things?
... maybe we'll see a whole range of other things? ←
09:02:24 <betehess> ... lack of imagination or just people staying on focus?
... lack of imagination or just people staying on focus? ←
09:02:43 <betehess> cygri: we may be missing some stuff
Richard Cyganiak: we may be missing some stuff ←
09:03:03 <betehess> ... if you see something like this, just say it
... if you see something like this, just say it ←
09:03:13 <betehess> ... let's nto brainstorming here at the f2f
... let's nto brainstorming here at the f2f ←
09:03:51 <betehess> ArnaudLH: anybody can make a proposal at any point
Arnaud Le Hors: anybody can make a proposal at any point ←
09:03:52 <davidwood> New wiki page for implementations, as requested: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Implementations
David Wood: New wiki page for implementations, as requested: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Implementations ←
09:04:12 <davidwood> (linked from the main page under Ongoing Work)
David Wood: (linked from the main page under Ongoing Work) ←
09:04:15 <betehess> SteveS: just make things as close as possible to what we have
Steve Speicher: just make things as close as possible to what we have ←
09:04:31 <betehess> ArnaudLH: let's speak about usecase and requirements
Arnaud Le Hors: let's speak about usecase and requirements ←
09:05:06 <betehess> ... we already have something good
... we already have something good ←
09:05:06 <betehess> ... we may want to remove things that don't belong there
... we may want to remove things that don't belong there ←
09:05:21 <betehess> ... normally, you start with that, then you start the docs
... normally, you start with that, then you start the docs ←
09:05:37 <betehess> ... here we started with the spec, we're still editing the UCR doc
... here we started with the spec, we're still editing the UCR doc ←
09:05:44 <SteveBattle> topic : Use Cases and Requirements
Steve Battle: topic : Use Cases and Requirements ←
09:05:52 <davidwood> q+
David Wood: q+ ←
09:06:02 <betehess> ... there is a good reason for this situation
... there is a good reason for this situation ←
09:06:25 <ArnaudLH> ack davidwood
Arnaud Le Hors: ack davidwood ←
09:06:36 <betehess> davidwood: just wanted to mention I created the implementation page
David Wood: just wanted to mention I created the implementation page ←
09:06:43 <betehess> ... we can use that to ground the use-case
... we can use that to ground the use-case ←
09:07:30 <betehess> ArnaudLH: I split the schedule in two
Arnaud Le Hors: I split the schedule in two ←
09:07:35 <betehess> ... the steps
... the steps ←
09:07:49 <betehess> ... and what's in the doc today
... and what's in the doc today ←
09:08:11 <betehess> ... also, what does it mean to have a requirement not addressed in the spec?
... also, what does it mean to have a requirement not addressed in the spec? ←
09:08:20 <betehess> ... eg. security is out-of-scope IMO
... eg. security is out-of-scope IMO ←
09:08:46 <betehess> SteveBattle: people started to collect stories together
Steve Battle: people started to collect stories together ←
09:08:51 <betehess> ... two sections
... two sections ←
09:08:57 <betehess> ... existing user stories
... existing user stories ←
09:09:13 <betehess> ... and the use cases
... and the use cases ←
09:09:30 <BartvanLeeuwen> +q
Bart van Leeuwen: +q ←
09:09:35 <betehess> ... you find here scienarios
... you find here scienarios ←
09:09:45 <betehess> ... making the use cases more concrete
... making the use cases more concrete ←
09:09:53 <betehess> ... there are 10 of them so far
... there are 10 of them so far ←
09:10:08 <betehess> ... there used to be plenty of examples
... there used to be plenty of examples ←
09:10:19 <betehess> ... they are now somewhere else
... they are now somewhere else ←
09:11:06 <betehess> [describing a scenario]
[describing a scenario] ←
09:11:30 <betehess> ... there are also pointers to the issues that were raised
... there are also pointers to the issues that were raised ←
09:11:42 <oberger> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Examples
Olivier Berger: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Examples ←
09:11:45 <betehess> ... focused on functional requirements
... focused on functional requirements ←
09:11:56 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
09:12:19 <betehess> ... functional requirement == what do you expect the system to do
... functional requirement == what do you expect the system to do ←
09:13:25 <betehess> ... functional is the how
... functional is the how ←
09:13:38 <ArnaudLH> ack bart
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bart ←
09:13:38 <betehess> BartvanLeeuwen: is it still open?
Bart van Leeuwen: is it still open? ←
09:13:41 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
09:13:45 <betehess> SteveBattle: it is still open
Steve Battle: it is still open ←
09:13:54 <betehess> q+
q+ ←
09:14:18 <betehess> ... for user stories, just go ahead
... for user stories, just go ahead ←
09:14:19 <ArnaudLH> ack steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves ←
09:14:23 <betehess> ... for requirements, just talk to me
... for requirements, just talk to me ←
09:14:24 <betehess> q-
q- ←
09:15:04 <betehess> SteveS: when I look at user scenarios, looks like we're too restrictive
Steve Speicher: when I look at user scenarios, looks like we're too restrictive ←
09:15:06 <betehess> ... eg. imposing 303
... eg. imposing 303 ←
09:15:06 <betehess> ... should be in the spec
... should be in the spec ←
09:15:08 <betehess> q+
q+ ←
09:15:37 <betehess> ... response codes are too much detail for example
... response codes are too much detail for example ←
09:16:15 <betehess> Ashok_Malhotra: there are other possible solutions
Ashok Malhotra: there are other possible solutions ←
09:17:06 <betehess> ... just pointing out that this is quite open
... just pointing out that this is quite open ←
09:17:14 <ericP> q+ to propose that another doc capture the very helpful groundings of the use cases
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to propose that another doc capture the very helpful groundings of the use cases ←
09:17:21 <betehess> ... so 303 may be too early
... so 303 may be too early ←
09:17:47 <betehess> SteveBattle: it is quite useful to know some things here
Steve Battle: it is quite useful to know some things here ←
09:17:56 <betehess> ... so it's useful to document
... so it's useful to document ←
09:17:57 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
09:17:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-minutes.html ivan
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-minutes.html ivan ←
09:18:10 <betehess> ... it's interesting to understand the sequence
... it's interesting to understand the sequence ←
09:18:22 <betehess> SteveS: it's supposed to drive the spec
Steve Speicher: it's supposed to drive the spec ←
09:18:40 <Ashok_Malhotra> q?
Ashok Malhotra: q? ←
09:18:46 <ericP> betehess: i read the UC&R as painging ourselves in a corner
Alexandre Bertails: i read the UC&R as painging ourselves in a corner [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
09:18:52 <ArnaudLH> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
09:19:16 <ericP> ... there may be some recipes in the UC&R which we have yet to discuss
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... there may be some recipes in the UC&R which we have yet to discuss ←
09:19:34 <ArnaudLH> ack ericp
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ericp ←
09:19:34 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to propose that another doc capture the very helpful groundings of the use cases
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to propose that another doc capture the very helpful groundings of the use cases ←
09:19:49 <betehess> ericP: when I read UCR, I usely don't know anything
Eric Prud'hommeaux: when I read UCR, I usely don't know anything ←
09:19:54 <betehess> ... here I find many details
... here I find many details ←
09:20:14 <betehess> ... maybe you can put that stuff to another page
... maybe you can put that stuff to another page ←
09:20:14 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
09:20:24 <betehess> ... and you link those
... and you link those ←
09:20:37 <betehess> ... then the reader can ground things to examples
... then the reader can ground things to examples ←
09:20:48 <betehess> ... and we can compare different proposals
... and we can compare different proposals ←
09:21:02 <betehess> q+
q+ ←
09:21:32 <betehess> SteveBattle: use cases are requirements
Steve Battle: use cases are requirements ←
09:21:44 <betehess> cygri: this level of details can't be defined here
Richard Cyganiak: this level of details can't be defined here ←
09:21:51 <davidwood> q+ to suggest the implementations page be used to record the "where"
David Wood: q+ to suggest the implementations page be used to record the "where" ←
09:21:57 <betehess> ... there are specific deployment pattern that are used out there
... there are specific deployment pattern that are used out there ←
09:21:59 <Yves> +1 use case documents should not be a pre-spec, just general goals for the spec
Yves Lafon: +1 use case documents should not be a pre-spec, just general goals for the spec ←
09:22:16 <betehess> ... some things are already using 303 for example
... some things are already using 303 for example ←
09:22:34 <betehess> ... we may have to answer quesitons like to we support X? if not, why?
... we may have to answer quesitons like to we support X? if not, why? ←
09:22:44 <betehess> ... that's something I expect to see in the document
... that's something I expect to see in the document ←
09:23:04 <betehess> ... and at the end, we may just say that we recomment something else
... and at the end, we may just say that we recomment something else ←
09:23:09 <oberger> +1 we need such level of details for existing deployment patterns
Olivier Berger: +1 we need such level of details for existing deployment patterns ←
09:23:09 <ahaller2> q+
Armin Haller: q+ ←
09:23:30 <betehess> ... people want to say the way they expect this to work
... people want to say the way they expect this to work ←
09:23:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-minutes.html ericP
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-minutes.html ericP ←
09:24:08 <betehess> ... taking existing deployment into account is a valid point, should not be ignored
... taking existing deployment into account is a valid point, should not be ignored ←
09:24:16 <betehess> SteveS: +1 to eric
Steve Speicher: +1 to eric ←
09:24:20 <ArnaudLH> ack steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves ←
09:24:27 <betehess> ... we may have another wiki page
... we may have another wiki page ←
09:24:36 <krp> q+
Kevin Page: q+ ←
09:24:46 <betehess> ... where we can say how things match between the doc and the spec
... where we can say how things match between the doc and the spec ←
09:25:06 <betehess> ... would be bad to have to go back to UCR to change it
... would be bad to have to go back to UCR to change it ←
09:25:18 <ArnaudLH> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
09:25:21 <betehess> ArnaudLH: for me, it's too much about the solution, not defining the solution
Arnaud Le Hors: for me, it's too much about the solution, not defining the solution ←
09:25:43 <SteveBattle> q+
Steve Battle: q+ ←
09:25:46 <oberger> betehess: I want to describe the problem, not the solution
Alexandre Bertails: I want to describe the problem, not the solution [ Scribe Assist by Olivier Berger ] ←
09:25:55 <ericP> betehess: i don't want to describe the solution, i want to describe the problem, and then tie that to existing solutions
Alexandre Bertails: i don't want to describe the solution, i want to describe the problem, and then tie that to existing solutions [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
09:27:01 <ericP> ... when you speak of 303s (for folks who want to make a clear distinction between entity and page), some folks use #URIs
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... when you speak of 303s (for folks who want to make a clear distinction between entity and page), some folks use #URIs ←
09:27:19 <ericP> cygri: we don't want to throw it out based on the level of detail
Richard Cyganiak: we don't want to throw it out based on the level of detail [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
09:27:50 <ericP> betehess: if we don't end up matching the UC&R, do we delete UC&R?
Alexandre Bertails: if we don't end up matching the UC&R, do we delete UC&R? [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
09:28:05 <ArnaudLH> ack david
Arnaud Le Hors: ack david ←
09:28:05 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to suggest the implementations page be used to record the "where"
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to suggest the implementations page be used to record the "where" ←
09:28:10 <ericP> cygri: user stories give requirements; requirements give rise to features in the spec
Richard Cyganiak: user stories give requirements; requirements give rise to features in the spec [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
09:28:11 <betehess> davidwood: maybe a bit orthogonal
David Wood: maybe a bit orthogonal ←
09:28:18 <betehess> ... trying to capture the what and the how
... trying to capture the what and the how ←
09:28:19 <ericP> ... sometimes you have to go back. that's just how it is
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... sometimes you have to go back. that's just how it is ←
09:28:25 <betehess> ... the where may be missing
... the where may be missing ←
09:28:39 <betehess> ... eg. to answer waht use-cases are implemented or not
... eg. to answer what use-cases are implemented or not ←
09:28:53 <betehess> ... we need a place to track those
... we need a place to track those ←
09:29:18 <betehess> ... I agree it's too detalied in term of the guidance
... I agree it's too detalied in term of the guidance ←
09:29:24 <betehess> ... we would like to say things only once
... we would like to say things only once ←
09:29:30 <betehess> ... don't repeat yourself
... don't repeat yourself ←
09:29:44 <betehess> ... we could change this page to respect the use stories (the why)
... we could change this page to respect the use stories (the why) ←
09:30:04 <betehess> ... and point to the spec to see where it's discussed
... and point to the spec to see where it's discussed ←
09:30:04 <SteveS> we should also map the spec sections to the use cases, that way we have a good mapping implementations to uc to spec sections
Steve Speicher: we should also map the spec sections to the use cases, that way we have a good mapping implementations to uc to spec sections ←
09:30:06 <ArnaudLH> ack ahaller
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ahaller ←
09:30:13 <betehess> ahaller2: I find this useful to the end-user
Armin Haller: I find this useful to the end-user ←
09:30:19 <betehess> ... it says hwo to use the platform
... it says hwo to use the platform ←
09:30:37 <betehess> ArnaudLH: I think there is great material here
Arnaud Le Hors: I think there is great material here ←
09:30:46 <betehess> ... nobody is saying to throw it out
... nobody is saying to throw it out ←
09:30:53 <betehess> ... question is what's belong here
... question is what's belong here ←
09:31:02 <betehess> ... what is the spec going to address
... what is the spec going to address ←
09:31:18 <betehess> ... we don't just want to delete any of these
... we don't just want to delete any of these ←
09:31:36 <davidwood> s/waht/what/
09:31:39 <betehess> ... could be a note, or whatever, we decide that later
... could be a note, or whatever, we decide that later ←
09:32:04 <betehess> ... could a primer as well
... could be a primer as well ←
09:32:09 <betehess> s/could/could be/
09:32:15 <ArnaudLH> ack krp
Arnaud Le Hors: ack krp ←
09:32:24 <betehess> krp: could be confusing
Kevin Page: could be confusing ←
09:32:35 <betehess> ... what don't people like here?
... what don't people like here? ←
09:32:40 <betehess> ... to many steps?
... too many steps? ←
09:32:45 <betehess> s/to/too/
09:32:58 <betehess> ... at least, this is a clear requirement
... at least, this is a clear requirement ←
09:33:11 <betehess> ... could also be a test case
... could also be a test case ←
09:33:16 <betehess> q+
q+ ←
09:33:23 <ArnaudLH> ack steveb
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steveb ←
09:34:07 <betehess> SteveBattle: what do you want to move out?
Steve Battle: what do you want to move out? ←
09:34:23 <ericP> q+ to propose that it may be most helpful to us to partition later and add an issue to say we plan to do so
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to propose that it may be most helpful to us to partition later and add an issue to say we plan to do so ←
09:34:26 <betehess> ... it's conventional to speak about the steps
... it's conventional to speak about the steps ←
09:34:38 <betehess> davidwood: the spec speaks about 303 in two places
David Wood: the spec speaks about 303 in two places ←
09:34:47 <betehess> ... also http verbs
... also http verbs ←
09:35:03 <ArnaudLH> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
09:35:16 <ericP> betehess: what's there is valuable
Alexandre Bertails: what's there is valuable [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
09:35:28 <ericP> ... it's not about the value itself
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... it's not about the value itself ←
09:35:41 <ericP> ... this material is excellent for when i'm implementing the test
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... this material is excellent for when i'm implementing the test ←
09:35:55 <svillata> oberger +1
Serena Villata: oberger +1 ←
09:35:55 <ericP> ... i want to test the spec, not the user requirement
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... i want to test the spec, not the user requirement ←
09:36:14 <davidwood> q+ to suggest starting a test page
David Wood: q+ to suggest starting a test page ←
09:36:17 <oberger> q+ asking for a coffee break potentially short
Olivier Berger: q+ asking for a coffee break potentially short ←
09:36:21 <oberger> q-
Olivier Berger: q- ←
09:36:21 <ericP> ... some folks say "just re-edit the page", but this is against @@1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... some folks say "just re-edit the page", but this is against @@1 ←
09:36:32 <ArnaudLH> ack eric
Arnaud Le Hors: ack eric ←
09:36:32 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to propose that it may be most helpful to us to partition later and add an issue to say we plan to do so
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to propose that it may be most helpful to us to partition later and add an issue to say we plan to do so ←
09:36:47 <betehess> ericP: when I said to split out in different document
Eric Prud'hommeaux: when I said to split out in different document ←
09:36:57 <betehess> ... for the time being, this is very useful
... for the time being, this is very useful ←
09:37:13 <SteveBattle> q+
Steve Battle: q+ ←
09:37:22 <betehess> ... we'll need to re-edit something anyway
... we'll need to re-edit something anyway ←
09:37:31 <betehess> ... we can insert a note at the beginning
... we can insert a note at the beginning ←
09:37:39 <betehess> ... and use color code
... and use color code ←
09:37:59 <betehess> ... that states what's to be considered
... that states what's to be considered ←
09:38:13 <betehess> ... and gives fewer places to visit
... and gives fewer places to visit ←
09:38:42 <ArnaudLH> ack david
Arnaud Le Hors: ack david ←
09:38:42 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to suggest starting a test page
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to suggest starting a test page ←
09:38:58 <ArnaudLH> q- asking
Arnaud Le Hors: q- asking ←
09:39:17 <betehess> davidwood: we could move some of the stuff to a wiki page for tests
David Wood: we could move some of the stuff to a wiki page for tests ←
09:39:21 <ArnaudLH> ack steveb
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steveb ←
09:39:34 <betehess> SteveBattle: we'll propose something
Steve Battle: we'll propose something ←
09:39:40 <rgarcia> +1 to convert examples into tests
Raúl García Castro: +1 to convert examples into tests ←
09:39:47 <betehess> ... still people need to review the scenarios
... still people need to review the scenarios ←
09:40:10 <betehess> ArnaudLH: let me try to summarize
Arnaud Le Hors: let me try to summarize ←
09:40:16 <betehess> ... probably too much in the doc
... probably too much in the doc ←
09:40:22 <betehess> ... not sure how to address the p
... not sure how to address the p ←
09:40:33 <betehess> ... some wants to move stuff
... some wants to move stuff ←
09:40:45 <betehess> ... just happy to give SteveBattle a chance to do another pass
... just happy to give SteveBattle a chance to do another pass ←
09:41:03 <betehess> ... but I don't want to end up saying "this is not what we wanted"
... but I don't want to end up saying "this is not what we wanted" ←
09:41:05 <betehess> q+
q+ ←
09:41:25 <betehess> ... any concrete proposal?
... any concrete proposal? ←
09:41:31 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
09:42:03 <betehess> ... if there is too much, we'll need to sort it out
... if there is too much, we'll need to sort it out ←
09:42:20 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
09:42:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see St_Clair_3B, Yves
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see St_Clair_3B, Yves ←
09:42:22 <betehess> oberger: maybe let's focus on the first 2 ones?
Olivier Berger: maybe let's focus on the first 2 ones? ←
09:42:46 <betehess> SteveBattle: don't want to loose the information, eg. the status code
Steve Battle: don't want to loose the information, eg. the status code ←
09:43:01 <ArnaudLH> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
09:43:58 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+
Ashok Malhotra: q+ ←
09:44:16 <ericP> betehess: maybe we want to have everything for a given user story in one place
Alexandre Bertails: maybe we want to have everything for a given user story in one place [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
09:44:37 <ArnaudLH> ack steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves ←
09:44:50 <betehess> SteveS: wanted to echo something similar
Steve Speicher: wanted to echo something similar ←
09:44:51 <ericP> ... at the end we need to gather all the info one place and this document points to the appropriate places in all the specs
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... at the end we need to gather all the info one place and this document points to the appropriate places in all the specs ←
09:45:06 <betehess> ... phrasing is important
... phrasing is important ←
09:45:28 <betehess> ... then we can extract the things depending on what we need
... then we can extract the things depending on what we need ←
09:46:02 <BartvanLeeuwen> q+
Bart van Leeuwen: q+ ←
09:46:04 <ArnaudLH> ack ashok
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok ←
09:46:08 <betehess> ArnaudLH: we have decided if we needed a primer yet
Arnaud Le Hors: we have decided if we needed a primer yet ←
09:46:22 <betehess> Ashok_Malhotra: would take all the stuff other than the 2 headers
Ashok Malhotra: would take all the stuff other than the 2 headers ←
09:46:32 <ericP> q?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q? ←
09:46:39 <betehess> ... could use other colors, this is possible solution
... could use other colors, this is possible solution ←
09:46:53 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
09:46:56 <betehess> ... like davidwood's suggestion to move that to test
... like davidwood's suggestion to move that to test ←
09:47:05 <betehess> ... the spec could end up with something very different
... the spec could end up with something very different ←
09:47:19 <betehess> davidwood: just said to put in a wiki page to start thing about it
David Wood: just said to put in a wiki page to start thing about it ←
09:47:22 <betehess> Ashok_Malhotra: that's fine
Ashok Malhotra: that's fine ←
09:47:23 <ericP> q+ to say that tests are allowed to be controversial
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to say that tests are allowed to be controversial ←
09:47:25 <bblfish> q-
Henry Story: q- ←
09:48:07 <betehess> ArnaudLH: SHORT BREAK
Arnaud Le Hors: SHORT BREAK ←
09:48:13 <BartvanLeeuwen> q+ primer is needed
Bart van Leeuwen: q+ primer is needed ←
09:48:17 <oberger> resume at 11:00
Olivier Berger: resume at 11:00 ←
09:48:58 <BartvanLeeuwen> q+ to state that primer is needed as in ld-dev yesterday
Bart van Leeuwen: q+ to state that primer is needed as in ld-dev yesterday ←
09:49:20 <Yves> +1 for a primer
Yves Lafon: +1 for a primer ←
10:10:01 <SteveBattle> +1
(No events recorded for 20 minutes)
Steve Battle: +1 ←
10:11:35 <bblfish> hi
Henry Story: hi ←
10:11:44 <oberger> again a short round of introductions
Olivier Berger: again a short round of introductions ←
10:11:50 <ahaller2> Henry Story
Armin Haller: Henry Story ←
10:12:05 <oberger> sandro's not here
10:12:28 <ahaller2> Hadley Beeman
Armin Haller: Hadley Beeman ←
10:12:31 <ArnaudLH> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
10:12:41 <BartvanLeeuwen> ack me
Bart van Leeuwen: ack me ←
10:12:41 <Zakim> BartvanLeeuwen, you wanted to state that primer is needed as in ld-dev yesterday
Zakim IRC Bot: BartvanLeeuwen, you wanted to state that primer is needed as in ld-dev yesterday ←
10:12:50 <SteveBattle> q+
Steve Battle: q+ ←
10:12:54 <betehess> s/sandro's not here//
10:13:02 <oberger> +1 for primer
Olivier Berger: +1 for primer ←
10:13:04 <ahaller2> Bart: a primer would be a good idea
Bart van Leeuwen: a primer would be a good idea [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:13:05 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
10:14:26 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: Would be a note, so we are fine doing a primer
Arnaud Le Hors: Would be a note, so we are fine doing a primer [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:14:38 <oberger> oberger: and bringing a bit more repeating of HTTP in the primer than in the specs would be greay
Olivier Berger: and bringing a bit more repeating of HTTP in the primer than in the specs would be great [ Scribe Assist by Olivier Berger ] ←
10:14:43 <oberger> s/greay/great/
10:14:57 <SteveS> +1 for primer, would be willing to help do
Steve Speicher: +1 for primer, would be willing to help do ←
10:15:01 <ArnaudLH> ack eric
Arnaud Le Hors: ack eric ←
10:15:01 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that tests are allowed to be controversial
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to say that tests are allowed to be controversial ←
10:15:50 <ArnaudLH> ack steveb
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steveb ←
10:17:03 <ahaller2> steveB: move specific error codes to a wiki, still talk about supporting redirections, but less detail
Steve Battle: move specific error codes to a wiki, still talk about supporting redirections, but less detail [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:17:14 <ArnaudLH> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
10:17:59 <ahaller2> richard: caution with primers, not always effective, often rushed out, not covering the scope of the working group
Richard Cyganiak: caution with primers, not always effective, often rushed out, not covering the scope of the working group [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:18:30 <ahaller2> ... could be done outside of the working group
Armin Haller: ... could be done outside of the working group ←
10:18:57 <oberger> http://patterns.dataincubator.org/book/ provides a nice example of what a primer could be
Olivier Berger: http://patterns.dataincubator.org/book/ provides a nice example of what a primer could be ←
10:18:58 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: add primer issue to the agenda if we have time
Arnaud Le Hors: add primer issue to the agenda if we have time [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:19:09 <ahaller2> ... who is the audience of the primer
Armin Haller: ... who is the audience of the primer ←
10:20:07 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: keep the timeline for the UCR document is more important
Arnaud Le Hors: keep the timeline for the UCR document is more important [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:21:00 <ahaller2> ... agree on the status of the document, what sections are in the document, mock the sections if necessary.
Armin Haller: ... agree on the status of the document, what sections are in the document, mock the sections if necessary. ←
10:21:48 <ahaller2> ... figure out nature of the content and the audience, don't have an explosion of documents
Armin Haller: ... figure out nature of the content and the audience, don't have an explosion of documents ←
10:22:02 <oberger> should be maintain a Linked Data index of the documents, their contents in a nice RDF graph ? ;)
Olivier Berger: should be maintain a Linked Data index of the documents, their contents in a nice RDF graph ? ;) ←
10:22:25 <oberger> kinda drinking our own champagne
Olivier Berger: kinda drinking our own champagne ←
10:22:50 <ericP> nicely stated
Eric Prud'hommeaux: nicely stated ←
10:22:57 <ahaller2> ... the UCR document would have been different if Steve did not have the spec. The document should stand on its own.
Armin Haller: ... the UCR document would have been different if Steve did not have the spec. The document should stand on its own. ←
10:23:09 <davidwood> oberger, VoID file?
David Wood: oberger, VoID file? ←
10:23:09 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
10:23:23 <ArnaudLH> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
10:23:50 <antonis> @oberger +1
Antonis Loizou: @oberger +1 ←
10:24:13 <oberger> some nice UC to add : specify a standard in a standardization body in a collaborative manner, etc ;)
Olivier Berger: some nice US to add : specify a standard in a standardization body in a collaborative manner, etc ;) ←
10:24:27 <oberger> s/UC/US/ User Story
10:24:47 <oberger> q+
Olivier Berger: q+ ←
10:25:07 <betehess> RRSAgent, please make minutes
RRSAgent, please make minutes ←
10:25:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-minutes.html betehess
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-minutes.html betehess ←
10:25:25 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: easier to have everything in one document
Arnaud Le Hors: easier to have everything in one document [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:25:39 <ArnaudLH> ack oberger
Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger ←
10:25:47 <ahaller2> oberger: should not be afraid of multiple documents
Olivier Berger: should not be afraid of multiple documents [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:26:02 <SteveBattle> q+
Steve Battle: q+ ←
10:26:21 <ArnaudLH> ack steveb
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steveb ←
10:26:47 <ahaller2> SteveB: use cases should not be vague
Steve Battle: use cases should not be vague [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:27:12 <sandro> seating chart for the room today, as far as I can tell: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/meeting/2012-11-01#line0001
Sandro Hawke: seating chart for the room today, as far as I can tell: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/meeting/2012-11-01#line0001 ←
10:27:14 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
10:27:19 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: ericP proposed to annotate the document
Arnaud Le Hors: ericP proposed to annotate the document [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:27:23 <ArnaudLH> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
10:27:24 <oberger> can we add anchors inside a mediawiki page, that won't be renamed ?
Olivier Berger: can we add anchors inside a mediawiki page, that won't be renamed ? ←
10:27:35 <bblfish> what does it mean to publish the document? Is it not on the wiki?
Henry Story: what does it mean to publish the document? Is it not on the wiki? ←
10:27:38 <oberger> so that we can nnotate ?
Olivier Berger: so that we can nnotate ? ←
10:27:45 <ahaller2> cygri: how to get certain use cases into the document? I have use cases which are not reflected.
Richard Cyganiak: how to get certain use cases into the document? I have use cases which are not reflected. [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:28:04 <ahaller2> ... what level are they, user stories vs. use cases
Armin Haller: ... what level are they, user stories vs. use cases ←
10:28:26 <sandro> oberger, yes, <span id="foo"></span> should survive.
Sandro Hawke: oberger, yes, <span id="foo"></span> should survive. ←
10:28:44 <oberger> sandro, or maybe a less HTML way ?
Olivier Berger: sandro, or maybe a less HTML way ? ←
10:28:59 <sandro> oberger, I don't know a non-HTML way
Sandro Hawke: oberger, I don't know a non-HTML way ←
10:29:41 <ahaller2> ... if i have requirement like I have a graph with mio incoming and outgoing links, how would i document that in the UCR document
Armin Haller: ... if i have requirement like I have a graph with mio incoming and outgoing links, how would i document that in the UCR document ←
10:29:53 <oberger> sandro, <div id="NameOfAnchorHere">optional text</div> in http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Links
Olivier Berger: sandro, <div id="NameOfAnchorHere">optional text</div> in http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Links ←
10:30:00 <ahaller2> ericP: i feel this is more like an issue, not a use case
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i feel this is more like an issue, not a use case [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:30:01 <oberger> sandro, so that's similar
Olivier Berger: sandro, so that's similar ←
10:30:25 <sandro> yes, oberger, same thing
Sandro Hawke: yes, oberger, same thing ←
10:30:48 <SteveBattle> q+
Steve Battle: q+ ←
10:31:34 <ahaller2> cygri: i have this big graph, the question is should i put it in right now
Richard Cyganiak: i have this big graph, the question is should i put it in right now [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:32:33 <ahaller2> steveB: examples has two issues, functional and non-functional, scale
Steve Battle: examples has two issues, functional and non-functional, scale [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:33:25 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: it does not make sense to close the document, you can add use cases later, even though they are harder to be addressed
Arnaud Le Hors: it does not make sense to close the document, you can add use cases later, even though they are harder to be addressed [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:33:39 <ArnaudLH> ack steveb
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steveb ←
10:33:57 <ericP> q+ to have a valuable position on the queue
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to have a valuable position on the queue ←
10:34:01 <ericP> q-
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q- ←
10:34:07 <ahaller2> steveB: prototype primer for use case details
Steve Battle: prototype primer for use case details [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:35:01 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: multiple ways to communicate with the public, we can publish notes, or a link
Arnaud Le Hors: multiple ways to communicate with the public, we can publish notes, or a link [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:35:16 <ahaller2> steveB: detailed scenarios is important for implementers
Steve Battle: detailed scenarios is important for implementers [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:35:31 <ahaller2> davidwood: where do we provide the details for implementers?
David Wood: where do we provide the details for implementers? [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:35:46 <ahaller2> steveS: webplatform.org
Steve Speicher: webplatform.org [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:35:59 <cygri> q+ to talk about test cases
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to talk about test cases ←
10:36:26 <ahaller2> steveS: realise that we need to add more examples to spec
Steve Speicher: realise that we need to add more examples to spec [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:36:30 <ArnaudLH> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
10:36:30 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to talk about test cases
Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to talk about test cases ←
10:37:04 <ahaller2> cygri: some of the details in the UCR would make good test cases
Richard Cyganiak: some of the details in the UCR would make good test cases [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:37:11 <nmihindu> ack cygri
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: ack cygri ←
10:37:11 <davidwood> q+
David Wood: q+ ←
10:37:43 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: i would like to get a timeline.
Arnaud Le Hors: i would like to get a timeline. [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:38:30 <cygri> q+ to suggest doing straw poll on publishing FPWD as is
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to suggest doing straw poll on publishing FPWD as is ←
10:38:48 <ahaller2> ... how we are going to decide what will be in the UCR document
Armin Haller: ... how we are going to decide what will be in the UCR document ←
10:39:07 <betehess> /me agrees with ArnaudLH as I disagree strongly with some of the current requirements
/me agrees with ArnaudLH as I disagree strongly with some of the current requirements ←
10:40:06 <betehess> q+
q+ ←
10:40:09 <ahaller2> ... two possible approaches: 1) go through document and make decision 2) review the document, the default is everything stays in there, raise an issue
Armin Haller: ... two possible approaches: 1) go through document and make decision 2) review the document, the default is everything stays in there, raise an issue ←
10:40:17 <ArnaudLH> ack david
Arnaud Le Hors: ack david ←
10:40:39 <SteveBattle> If anyone disagrees with the detail of the requirements please raise on the mailing list.
Steve Battle: If anyone disagrees with the detail of the requirements please raise on the mailing list. ←
10:41:15 <ahaller2> davidwood: UCR is up already
David Wood: UCR is up already [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:41:25 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: at the end it will be a note
Arnaud Le Hors: at the end it will be a note [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:41:26 <oberger> q+
Olivier Berger: q+ ←
10:41:31 <ArnaudLH> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
10:41:31 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to suggest doing straw poll on publishing FPWD as is
Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to suggest doing straw poll on publishing FPWD as is ←
10:42:06 <ahaller2> cygri: straw poll on publishing the content as we have it
Richard Cyganiak: straw poll on publishing the content as we have it [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:42:20 <ahaller2> ... surface concerns with straw poll
Armin Haller: ... surface concerns with straw poll ←
10:42:22 <nmihindu> q+
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: q+ ←
10:43:00 <ericP> q+ to say that we have a choice about whether the FPWD includes all ratified use cases
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to say that we have a choice about whether the FPWD includes all ratified use cases ←
10:43:02 <ahaller2> ... going through document step by step is ok, but i am not sure what is a story and what is a use case
Armin Haller: ... going through document step by step is ok, but i am not sure what is a story and what is a use case ←
10:43:04 <davidwood> +1 to section-by-section review by the group
David Wood: +1 to section-by-section review by the group ←
10:43:20 <ArnaudLH> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
10:43:25 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: it will be useful to identify the things that we agree on
Arnaud Le Hors: it will be useful to identify the things that we need to agree on [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:43:48 <ArnaudLH> s/agree/need to agree/
10:43:54 <ericP> q+ to say that we have a choice about whether the FPWD includes only ratified use cases
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to say that we have a choice about whether the FPWD includes only ratified use cases ←
10:44:01 <ahaller2> betehess: i have a problem with seeing solutions in the UCR document
Alexandre Bertails: i have a problem with seeing solutions in the UCR document [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:44:43 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
10:44:52 <ahaller2> ... want to know what we add later on
Armin Haller: ... want to know what we add later on ←
10:45:00 <bblfish> there is a difference between the wiki and the published document
Henry Story: there is a difference between the wiki and the published document ←
10:45:02 <ArnaudLH> ack oberger
Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger ←
10:45:06 <betehess> why not going through an issue then?
why not going through an issue then? ←
10:45:09 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: controlled process on what will be added later
Arnaud Le Hors: controlled process on what will be added later [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:45:28 <bblfish> +1 for pingback
Henry Story: +1 for pingback ←
10:45:31 <ahaller2> oberger: some concerns on the mailing list are not in the document
Olivier Berger: some concerns on the mailing list are not in the document [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:45:39 <SteveS> use case for ping back?
Steve Speicher: use case for ping back? ←
10:45:45 <ahaller2> ... i have a problem to define a use case and/or user story
Armin Haller: ... i have a problem to define a use case and/or user story ←
10:46:02 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
10:46:15 <ahaller2> ... maybe others are in the same situation not knowing how to get something into the document
Armin Haller: ... maybe others are in the same situation not knowing how to get something into the document ←
10:46:15 <betehess> pingback relies on so many other things that are not even on scope
pingback relies on so many other things that are not even on scope ←
10:46:40 <bblfish> pingback is a use case
Henry Story: pingback is a use case ←
10:46:43 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: if enough in the group care, it should be in, but we need to define a process
Arnaud Le Hors: if enough in the group care, it should be in, but we need to define a process [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:47:04 <ahaller2> davidwood: who else contributed to uses cases?
David Wood: who else contributed to uses cases? [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:47:30 <roger__> i can see a lot of uses for pingback!
Roger Menday: i can see a lot of uses for pingback! ←
10:47:45 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: if you think the working group is not caring, raise it as an issue
Arnaud Le Hors: if you think the working group is not caring, raise it as an issue [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:48:09 <ahaller2> oberger: issue raised in the tracker not in the document
Olivier Berger: issue raised in the tracker not in the document [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:48:15 <SteveS> we also had feedback from the WG they many were pleased with current use cases and said it covered their cases
Steve Speicher: we also had feedback from the WG they many were pleased with current use cases and said it covered their cases ←
10:48:28 <ArnaudLH> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
10:48:29 <ahaller2> davidwood: is there a product in tracker on UCR
David Wood: is there a product in tracker on UCR [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:48:51 <ahaller2> ... group member wants a use case, raise an issue
Armin Haller: ... group member wants a use case, raise an issue ←
10:48:55 <SteveBattle> +1
Steve Battle: +1 ←
10:49:35 <ericP> PROPOSAL: the process for adding new use cases is to raise a tracker issue against the UC&R product
PROPOSED: the process for adding new use cases is to raise a tracker issue against the UC&R product ←
10:49:37 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
10:49:39 <ArnaudLH> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
10:49:41 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
10:49:42 <rgarcia> +1
Raúl García Castro: +1 ←
10:49:43 <antonis> +1
Antonis Loizou: +1 ←
10:49:43 <bblfish> +1
Henry Story: +1 ←
10:49:44 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
Bart van Leeuwen: +1 ←
10:49:45 <betehess> +1
+1 ←
10:49:46 <oberger> +1
Olivier Berger: +1 ←
10:49:47 <ahaller2> +1
Armin Haller: +1 ←
10:49:47 <Ruben> +1
Ruben Verborgh: +1 ←
10:49:48 <krp> +1
Kevin Page: +1 ←
10:49:48 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
10:49:49 <svillata> +1
Serena Villata: +1 ←
10:49:50 <SteveBattle> +1
Steve Battle: +1 ←
10:49:54 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
10:49:56 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
10:49:57 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
10:49:59 <ericP> APPROVED
Eric Prud'hommeaux: APPROVED ←
10:50:16 <ericP> RESOLVED: the process for adding new use cases is to raise a tracker issue against the UC&R product
RESOLVED: the process for adding new use cases is to raise a tracker issue against the UC&R product ←
10:50:17 <cygri> q?
Richard Cyganiak: q? ←
10:50:38 <ArnaudLH> ack nmihindu
Arnaud Le Hors: ack nmihindu ←
10:51:20 <betehess> that's why the wording is important! what do people expect to find in the UC&R document
that's why the wording is important! what do people expect to find in the UC&R document ←
10:51:28 <ahaller2> nmihindu: i have been implementer of specs, these infos we have in the UCR right now, are useful for implementers, but I am not reading the use cases as a implementer.
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: i have been implementer of specs, these infos we have in the UCR right now, are useful for implementers, but I am not reading the use cases as a implementer. [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:51:30 <ericP> ack me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ack me ←
10:51:30 <betehess> +1 to the dev comment
+1 to the dev comment ←
10:51:31 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that we have a choice about whether the FPWD includes all ratified use cases and to say that we have a choice about whether the FPWD includes only ratified
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to say that we have a choice about whether the FPWD includes all ratified use cases and to say that we have a choice about whether the FPWD includes only ratified ←
10:51:31 <Zakim> ... use cases
Zakim IRC Bot: ... use cases ←
10:51:34 <ArnaudLH> ack eric
Arnaud Le Hors: ack eric ←
10:51:58 <oberger> FPWD of the UC&R
Olivier Berger: FPWD of the UC&R ←
10:52:12 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
10:52:20 <ahaller2> ericP: we have a choice of stating what issues have been approved
Eric Prud'hommeaux: we have a choice of stating what issues have been approved [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:52:36 <betehess> q+
q+ ←
10:52:47 <ahaller2> ... for the 10 use cases in the UCR we can mark them as approved/not approved
Armin Haller: ... for the 10 use cases in the UCR we can mark them as approved/not approved ←
10:52:47 <ArnaudLH> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
10:53:31 <ahaller2> cygri: we have a process of highlighting issues in the UCR document. i would like to see a deadline for these issues to be raised.
Richard Cyganiak: we have a process of highlighting issues in the UCR document. i would like to see a deadline for these issues to be raised. [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:53:38 <ArnaudLH> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
10:54:08 <ahaller2> bblfish: test this, raise pingback as an issue
Henry Story: test this, raise pingback as an issue [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:54:15 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: not right now
Arnaud Le Hors: not right now [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:54:18 <ArnaudLH> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
10:54:45 <webr3> rrsagent, please draft minutes
Nathan Rixham: rrsagent, please draft minutes ←
10:54:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-minutes.html webr3
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-minutes.html webr3 ←
10:54:55 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
10:55:16 <ahaller2> betehess: agree, implementer will never look at the UCR
Alexandre Bertails: agree, implementer will never look at the UCR [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:55:43 <ahaller2> ... if we put something in the document it will be hard to remove it. cautious with the first public draft.
Armin Haller: ... if we put something in the document it will be hard to remove it. cautious with the first public draft. ←
10:55:45 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
10:56:18 <ArnaudLH> ack steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves ←
10:56:23 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: making sure to agree what is in there. big mistake for example to include access control if we are not
Arnaud Le Hors: making sure to agree what is in there. big mistake for example to include access control if we are not [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:56:40 <ahaller2> SteveS: 18 user stories, are we agree on those as well?
Steve Speicher: 18 user stories, are we agree on those as well? [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:56:48 <betehess> so do we just use tracker for that as well?
so do we just use tracker for that as well? ←
10:56:54 <ahaller2> ... same process, with raising issue
Armin Haller: ... same process, with raising issue ←
10:57:03 <betehess> we need a deadline then
we need a deadline then ←
10:57:12 <ahaller2> cygri: use same process, raise an issue
Richard Cyganiak: use same process, raise an issue [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:57:23 <betehess> q+ to ask about a deadline
q+ to ask about a deadline ←
10:57:57 <cygri> q-
Richard Cyganiak: q- ←
10:57:58 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: by default everything which is not questioned with an issue will be published
Arnaud Le Hors: by default everything which is not questioned with an issue will be published [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:58:13 <ArnaudLH> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
10:58:13 <Zakim> betehess, you wanted to ask about a deadline
Zakim IRC Bot: betehess, you wanted to ask about a deadline ←
10:58:25 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
10:58:32 <ahaller2> betehess: we need a timeline for when the chair will accept issues
Alexandre Bertails: we need a timeline for when the chair will accept issues [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
10:58:42 <nmihindu> q
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: q ←
10:58:46 <ArnaudLH> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
10:58:51 <ahaller2> ... after this point nobody should be allowed to edit the document
Armin Haller: ... after this point nobody should be allowed to edit the document ←
10:59:04 <nmihindu> q+
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: q+ ←
10:59:10 <betehess> as a way to work, we could move to github and use pull-request
as a way to work, we could move to github and use pull-request ←
11:00:00 <ahaller2> cygri: one proposal, we set a date, against the first public draft of this document. Editor takes what is in the wiki, at least flags the issues (marker in the document).
Richard Cyganiak: one proposal, we set a date, against the first public draft of this document. Editor takes what is in the wiki, at least flags the issues (marker in the document). [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
11:00:41 <ArnaudLH> ack nmihindu
Arnaud Le Hors: ack nmihindu ←
11:00:53 <SteveBattle> q+
Steve Battle: q+ ←
11:01:01 <ahaller2> nmihindu: some user stories are very detailed, some are vague ideas. in the document we have to make them consistent.
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: some user stories are very detailed, some are vague ideas. in the document we have to make them consistent. [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
11:01:09 <betehess> +1 to that
+1 to that ←
11:01:25 <ahaller2> SteveB: i don't agree we need to make them consistent
Steve Battle: i don't agree we need to make them consistent [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
11:01:36 <ArnaudLH> ack steveb
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steveb ←
11:02:12 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
11:02:38 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: do we agree with cygri's proposal, that we make sure that everything is at least mentioned in the document (ie. issues)
Arnaud Le Hors: do we agree with cygri's proposal, that we make sure that everything is at least mentioned in the document (ie. issues) [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
11:04:03 <SteveS> +1 for some consistency in user stories, think the readers will appreciate it
Steve Speicher: +1 for some consistency in user stories, think the readers will appreciate it ←
11:04:38 <ahaller2> cygri: regarding the timeline. everything before that date will be at least acknowledged
Richard Cyganiak: regarding the timeline. everything before that date will be at least acknowledged [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
11:04:52 <cygri> PROPOSAL: Issues raised against the UC&R document before XX/YY will be acknowledged or addressed in the first WD of the published document.
PROPOSED: Issues raised against the UC&R document before XX/YY will be acknowledged or addressed in the first WD of the published document. ←
11:05:38 <sandro> suggest 1 December ?
Sandro Hawke: suggest 1 December ? ←
11:05:54 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: agree with that, happy to make that official if people agree
Arnaud Le Hors: agree with that, happy to make that official if people agree [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
11:06:02 <betehess> too soon for me
too soon for me ←
11:07:09 <ahaller2> oberger: can steveB still add issues?
Olivier Berger: can steveB still add issues? [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
11:07:26 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: SteveB should go through the same process
Arnaud Le Hors: SteveB should go through the same process [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
11:07:58 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: will come up with a deadline by tomorrow
Arnaud Le Hors: will come up with a deadline by tomorrow [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
11:08:44 <betehess> q+
q+ ←
11:08:56 <cygri> ack me
Richard Cyganiak: ack me ←
11:09:06 <ahaller2> ericP: are we picking something specific, like SemTech
Eric Prud'hommeaux: are we picking something specific, like SemTech [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
11:09:22 <ArnaudLH> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
11:09:31 <ArnaudLH> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
11:09:42 <oberger> how many weekly meetings/calls do we need ?
Olivier Berger: how many weekly meetings/calls do we need ? ←
11:09:50 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
11:09:57 <ahaller2> betehess: if we have a deadline that is too early we will have no agreement on anything
Alexandre Bertails: if we have a deadline that is too early we will have no agreement on anything [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
11:10:04 <sandro> betehess misunderstood cygri's proposal
Sandro Hawke: betehess misunderstood cygri's proposal ←
11:10:24 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: we will have to be optimistic
Arnaud Le Hors: we will have to be optimistic [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
11:10:25 <oberger> ack cygri
Olivier Berger: ack cygri ←
11:10:43 <ahaller2> cygri: deadline for raising issues, not for inclusions in the document
Richard Cyganiak: deadline for raising issues, not for inclusions in the document [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
11:11:02 <ahaller2> ... two separate deadlines
Armin Haller: ... two separate deadlines ←
11:11:35 <ahaller2> cygri: PROPOSAL: Issues raised against the UC&R document before XX/YY will be acknowledged or addressed in the first WD of the published document.
Richard Cyganiak: PROPOSAL: Issues raised against the UC&R document before XX/YY will be acknowledged or addressed in the first WD of the published document. [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
11:11:53 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
11:12:03 <ArnaudLH> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
11:12:07 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
Bart van Leeuwen: +1 ←
11:12:07 <Ruben> +1
Ruben Verborgh: +1 ←
11:12:08 <krp> +1
Kevin Page: +1 ←
11:12:09 <rgarcia> +1
Raúl García Castro: +1 ←
11:12:10 <svillata> +1
Serena Villata: +1 ←
11:12:11 <bblfish> +1
Henry Story: +1 ←
11:12:11 <antonis> +1
Antonis Loizou: +1 ←
11:12:11 <oberger> ArnaudLH, to propose a timeline tomorow
Olivier Berger: ArnaudLH, to propose a timeline tomorow ←
11:12:13 <betehess> +1
+1 ←
11:12:15 <ahaller2> +1
Armin Haller: +1 ←
11:12:19 <roger__> +1
Roger Menday: +1 ←
11:12:19 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
11:12:32 <Ashok_Malhotra> +1
Ashok Malhotra: +1 ←
11:12:57 <ericP> +1 to the general idea, noting that it has no date
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to the general idea, noting that it has no date ←
11:13:09 <betehess> +1 to eric's remark
+1 to eric's remark ←
11:13:16 <SteveBattle> +1 (and OK with Dec 1 date)
Steve Battle: +1 (and OK with Dec 1 date) ←
11:13:24 <ericP> +1 to betehess's validation
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to betehess's validation ←
11:13:57 <cygri> q?
Richard Cyganiak: q? ←
11:14:03 <ahaller2> ArnaudLH: let's have lunch, get back in 45 minutes
Arnaud Le Hors: let's have lunch, get back in 45 minutes [ Scribe Assist by Armin Haller ] ←
11:14:04 <ericP> RESOLVED: Issues raised against the UC&R document before XX/YY will be acknowledged or addressed in the first WD of the published document.
RESOLVED: Issues raised against the UC&R document before XX/YY will be acknowledged or addressed in the first WD of the published document. ←
11:14:33 <nmihindu> present+ Nandana_Mihindukulasooriya
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: present+ Nandana_Mihindukulasooriya ←
11:14:49 <rgarcia> present+ Raul_Garcia-Castro
Raúl García Castro: present+ Raul_Garcia-Castro ←
11:48:20 <Zakim> +JohnArwe
(No events recorded for 33 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: +JohnArwe ←
12:10:49 <oberger> JohnArwe on the phone
(No events recorded for 22 minutes)
Olivier Berger: JohnArwe on the phone ←
12:10:59 <oberger> q+ what about the restaurant tonite ?
Olivier Berger: q+ what about the restaurant tonite ? ←
12:11:04 <bblfish> hi JohnArwe
Henry Story: hi JohnArwe ←
12:11:29 <cygri> oberger, check the agenda :-)
Richard Cyganiak: oberger, check the agenda :-) ←
12:11:49 <oberger> cygri, doesn't tell where
Olivier Berger: cygri, doesn't tell where ←
12:11:55 <JohnArwe> I will have to drop in 2 hours. GMs are so inconsiderate of my existing schedule.
John Arwe: I will have to drop in 2 hours. GMs are so inconsiderate of my existing schedule. ←
12:12:04 <cygri> oberger, there's a time slot for discussing that.
Richard Cyganiak: oberger, there's a time slot for discussing that. ←
12:12:46 <oberger> cygri, yes, but if we have to make a reservation, the sooner, the better... that said, dunno
Olivier Berger: cygri, yes, but if we have to make a reservation, the sooner, the better... that said, dunno ←
12:13:21 <cygri> scribe: cygri
(Scribe set to Richard Cyganiak)
12:13:42 <cygri> topic: LDP Specification
12:13:58 <oberger> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/hg/ldp.html
Olivier Berger: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/hg/ldp.html ←
12:13:59 <cygri> ArnaudLH: We could simply go down the issue list in order.
Arnaud Le Hors: We could simply go down the issue list in order. ←
12:14:13 <cygri> ... To warm up, we could start with some perhaps less controversial issues.
... To warm up, we could start with some perhaps less controversial issues. ←
12:14:33 <oberger> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues
Olivier Berger: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues ←
12:14:38 <rgarcia> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/open
Raúl García Castro: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/open ←
12:14:53 <cygri> ... Anyone wants to suggest a particular issue for discussion?
... Anyone wants to suggest a particular issue for discussion? ←
12:14:54 <Ruben> could we talk about 24 today sometime? (not here tomorrow)
Ruben Verborgh: could we talk about 24 today sometime? (not here tomorrow) ←
12:16:39 <cygri> [reconciling order of discussion with presence of various participants]
[reconciling order of discussion with presence of various participants] ←
12:16:48 <betehess> closest to my interest: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/20
Alexandre Bertails: closest to my interest: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/20 ←
12:16:54 <JohnArwe> 23 open according to the server (just above table)
John Arwe: 23 open according to the server (just above table) ←
12:17:15 <AndyS> zakim, code?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, code? ←
12:17:15 <Zakim> the conference code is 53794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 53794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), AndyS ←
12:17:31 <roger> i have interest in issue 26 - and will (unfortunately) not be here tommorrow ....
Roger Menday: i have interest in ISSUE-26 - and will (unfortunately) not be here tommorrow .... ←
12:17:40 <Zakim> +??P0
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P0 ←
12:17:48 <AndyS> zakim, ??P0 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P0 is me ←
12:17:48 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
12:17:50 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
12:18:05 <betehess> q-
Alexandre Bertails: q- ←
12:18:17 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
12:19:04 <FabGandon> Present+FabGandon
Fabien Gandon: Present+FabGandon ←
12:19:36 <oberger> q?
Olivier Berger: q? ←
12:21:08 <ArnaudLH> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
12:21:26 <davidwood> q+ to propose a resolution for ISSUEs 22 and 23
David Wood: q+ to propose a resolution for ISSUEs 22 and 23 ←
12:22:12 <oberger> let's vote on 22 !
Olivier Berger: let's vote on 22 ! ←
12:22:34 <oberger> on discussing 22
Olivier Berger: on discussing 22 ←
12:22:51 <cygri> subtopic: ISSUE-22 and ISSUE-23 (RDF/XML and JSON-LD)
12:22:56 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
12:23:05 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUEs 22 and 23 by stating that LDP servers MUST support Turtle and MAY/SHOULD support any other RDF serialization format that is a W3C Recommendation.
PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUEs 22 and 23 by stating that LDP servers MUST support Turtle and MAY/SHOULD support any other RDF serialization format that is a W3C Recommendation. ←
12:23:05 <bblfish> +1
Henry Story: +1 ←
12:23:12 <oberger> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/22
Olivier Berger: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/22 ←
12:23:17 <bblfish> +1
Henry Story: +1 ←
12:23:19 <SteveBattle> +1
Steve Battle: +1 ←
12:23:22 <cygri> q+
q+ ←
12:23:36 <cygri> ArnaudLH: Turtle is a MUST, we have resolved that already
Arnaud Le Hors: Turtle is a MUST, we have resolved that already ←
12:23:47 <cygri> davidwood: It should be separated from the other formats
David Wood: It should be separated from the other formats ←
12:23:58 <betehess> does these format *have* to support relative URIs in their serializations?
Alexandre Bertails: does these format *have* to support relative URIs in their serializations? ←
12:24:06 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
12:24:27 <betehess> q+ to ask if these formats MUST support relative URIs in their serializations
Alexandre Bertails: q+ to ask if these formats MUST support relative URIs in their serializations ←
12:24:32 <cygri> ... Point is to have a consistent policy
... Point is to have a consistent policy ←
12:24:40 <cygri> ... MAY or SHOULD would be consistent
... MAY or SHOULD would be consistent ←
12:24:46 <cygri> ack davidwood
ack davidwood ←
12:24:46 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to propose a resolution for ISSUEs 22 and 23
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to propose a resolution for ISSUEs 22 and 23 ←
12:24:48 <ahaller2> +1 for SHOULD
Armin Haller: +1 for SHOULD ←
12:24:57 <ArnaudLH> ack david
Arnaud Le Hors: ack david ←
12:25:00 <bblfish> 1+
Henry Story: 1+ ←
12:25:02 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
12:25:15 <bblfish> Ntriples would not work because of ISSUE-20
Henry Story: Ntriples would not work because of ISSUE-20 ←
12:25:24 <bblfish> because it does not have relative URIs
Henry Story: because it does not have relative URIs ←
12:25:39 <ericP> cygri: re: david's proposal, I preferr to just say that Turtle MUST be supported and say nothing about other formats
Richard Cyganiak: re: david's proposal, I preferr to just say that Turtle MUST be supported and say nothing about other formats [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
12:25:49 <davidwood> ISSUE 20 isn't resolved yet :)
David Wood: ISSUE-20 isn't resolved yet :) ←
12:26:03 <ericP> ... otherwise we end up in conneg and different representations of the same resource
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... otherwise we end up in conneg and different representations of the same resource ←
12:26:06 <ArnaudLH> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
12:26:11 <davidwood> I have no strong objection to cygri's proposal.
David Wood: I have no strong objection to cygri's proposal. ←
12:26:21 <AndyS> bblfish - strictly, nor does Turtle. It encodes a graph and a graph has resolved absolute URIs.
Andy Seaborne: bblfish - strictly, nor does Turtle. It encodes a graph and a graph has resolved absolute URIs. ←
12:26:22 <Ruben> +1 for no other formats than Turtle
Ruben Verborgh: +1 for no other formats than Turtle ←
12:26:33 <rgarcia> +1 for only Turtle
Raúl García Castro: +1 for only Turtle ←
12:26:34 <timbl> q+ to suggest "May top connect o other formats"
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ to suggest "May top connect o other formats" ←
12:26:40 <ericP> oberger: shouldn't we discuss conneg?
Olivier Berger: shouldn't we discuss conneg? [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
12:26:46 <timbl> q+ to suggest "May top conneg o other formats"
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ to suggest "May top conneg o other formats" ←
12:26:47 <ArnaudLH> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
12:26:47 <Zakim> betehess, you wanted to ask if these formats MUST support relative URIs in their serializations
Zakim IRC Bot: betehess, you wanted to ask if these formats MUST support relative URIs in their serializations ←
12:26:54 <ericP> cygri: HTTP already talks about conneg
Richard Cyganiak: HTTP already talks about conneg [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
12:27:13 <ericP> oberger: in an informative section, we could say "of course you can use conneg"
Olivier Berger: in an informative section, we could say "of course you can use conneg" [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
12:27:20 <ArnaudLH> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
12:27:22 <cygri> betehess: davidwood's proposal doesn't work because of relative URIs
Alexandre Bertails: davidwood's proposal doesn't work because of relative URIs ←
12:27:48 <SteveBattle> q+
Steve Battle: q+ ←
12:27:51 <cygri> bblfish: N-Triples doesn't work because of ISSUE-20
Henry Story: N-Triples doesn't work because of ISSUE-20 ←
12:28:12 <cygri> davidwood: N-Triples is likely to be a W3C recommendation
David Wood: N-Triples is likely to be a W3C recommendation ←
12:28:41 <AndyS> q+ to say it would have to be a restricted form of Turtle, not all Turtle.
Andy Seaborne: q+ to say it would have to be a restricted form of Turtle, not all Turtle. ←
12:28:57 <ArnaudLH> ack timbl
Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl ←
12:28:57 <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to suggest "May top connect o other formats" and to suggest "May top conneg o other formats"
Zakim IRC Bot: timbl, you wanted to suggest "May top connect o other formats" and to suggest "May top conneg o other formats" ←
12:29:01 <SteveBattle> q-
Steve Battle: q- ←
12:29:03 <cygri> bblfish: N-Triples only allows absolute URIs. ISSUE-20 proposal is to use relative URIs so that servers can fill in the URI after POST
Henry Story: N-Triples only allows absolute URIs. ISSUE-20 proposal is to use relative URIs so that servers can fill in the URI after POST ←
12:29:35 <oberger> +1 timbl
Olivier Berger: +1 timbl ←
12:29:47 <cygri> timbl: "MAY do conneg" may be worth stating to make clear that it's okay to support things beside Turtle
Tim Berners-Lee: "MAY do conneg" may be worth stating to make clear that it's okay to support things beside Turtle ←
12:30:23 <cygri> ... You may have to specify that Turtle MUST be returned dependent on q value
... You may have to specify that Turtle MUST be returned dependent on q value ←
12:30:37 <cygri> ... q values are an issue in conneg
... q values are an issue in conneg ←
12:30:40 <ArnaudLH> ack steveb
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steveb ←
12:30:47 <ArnaudLH> ack andy
Arnaud Le Hors: ack andy ←
12:30:47 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to say it would have to be a restricted form of Turtle, not all Turtle.
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to say it would have to be a restricted form of Turtle, not all Turtle. ←
12:31:07 <cygri> AndyS: Depending on ISSUE-20 resolution, we may have to qualify what we mean by Turtle
Andy Seaborne: Depending on ISSUE-20 resolution, we may have to qualify what we mean by Turtle ←
12:31:08 <betehess> andy's remark is right
Alexandre Bertails: andy's remark is right ←
12:31:10 <AndyS> ack me
Andy Seaborne: ack me ←
12:31:14 <webr3> q+ to suggest "issue-20 may be easier solved by handling the use case a different way, simply have a resource which provides or redirects to a "new" free uri on each request, like an auto inc, then PUT to it"
Nathan Rixham: q+ to suggest "ISSUE-20 may be easier solved by handling the use case a different way, simply have a resource which provides or redirects to a "new" free uri on each request, like an auto inc, then PUT to it" ←
12:31:17 <webr3> q-
Nathan Rixham: q- ←
12:31:25 <JohnArwe> what was the common misreading of conneg timbl was talking about? rapid-file syllables didn't make it so well across the pond.
John Arwe: what was the common misreading of conneg timbl was talking about? rapid-file syllables didn't make it so well across the pond. ←
12:31:40 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
12:31:42 <Zakim> -Yves
Zakim IRC Bot: -Yves ←
12:32:05 <cygri> ... One of the ISSUE-20 proposals is that POSTing creates a new resource; the container decides on URI of the new resource and fills in <> with the address of the new resource
... One of the ISSUE-20 proposals is that POSTing creates a new resource; the container decides on URI of the new resource and fills in <> with the address of the new resource ←
12:32:28 <betehess> q-
Alexandre Bertails: q- ←
12:32:32 <cygri> ArnaudLH: Let's not talk about opening the resolution that turtle MUST be supported.
Arnaud Le Hors: Let's not talk about opening the resolution that turtle MUST be supported. ←
12:32:50 <timbl> All my serializers do relative URIs by default and in systems I build that is a fundamentally important thing.
Tim Berners-Lee: All my serializers do relative URIs by default and in systems I build that is a fundamentally important thing. ←
12:33:12 <AndyS> there are other ways to address issue-20 that do not have the relative URI issue and hence any RDF serialization works.
Andy Seaborne: there are other ways to address ISSUE-20 that do not have the relative URI issue and hence any RDF serialization works. ←
12:33:28 <ericP> cygri: yes
Richard Cyganiak: yes [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
12:33:49 <davidwood> +1 to AndyS
David Wood: +1 to AndyS ←
12:33:59 <cygri> PROPOSAL: MUST use Turtle; MAY do content negotiation with other formats
PROPOSED: MUST use Turtle; MAY do content negotiation with other formats ←
12:34:06 <Ruben> +1
Ruben Verborgh: +1 ←
12:34:13 <bblfish> +1
Henry Story: +1 ←
12:34:22 <oberger> +1
Olivier Berger: +1 ←
12:34:23 <antonis> +1
Antonis Loizou: +1 ←
12:34:27 <betehess> +1
Alexandre Bertails: +1 ←
12:34:27 <ahaller2> +1
Armin Haller: +1 ←
12:34:28 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
12:34:28 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
12:34:28 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
Bart van Leeuwen: +1 ←
12:34:30 <ArnaudLH> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
12:34:34 <rgarcia> +1
Raúl García Castro: +1 ←
12:34:34 <krp> +1
Kevin Page: +1 ←
12:34:35 <AndyS> +1 to mentioning conneg somewhere in docs
Andy Seaborne: +1 to mentioning conneg somewhere in docs ←
12:34:35 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
12:34:38 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
12:34:39 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
12:34:40 <webr3> +1 s/suse/support
Nathan Rixham: +1 s/suse/support ←
12:34:41 <SteveBattle> q+
Steve Battle: q+ ←
12:34:46 <svillata> +1
Serena Villata: +1 ←
12:35:29 <ArnaudLH> ack steveb
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steveb ←
12:35:43 <sandro> SteveBattle: If you don't send an accept header on a GET, will you get Turtle?
Steve Battle: If you don't send an accept header on a GET, will you get Turtle? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:35:44 <ericP> q?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q? ←
12:36:28 <timbl> (JohnArwe, the failure is that tabulator for example a s ffox extension can handle turtle and html both fine. And so send the same q value for each. When people serve both HTML and Turtle, then they have to ideally -- send HTML off the HTML is the master and the turtle is a degraded, information lost congestion from the HTML -- if the other way around, like here, that the turtle -- the data -- is the master and the HTML is generated from it, you should return the
Tim Berners-Lee: (JohnArwe, the failure is that tabulator for example a s ffox extension can handle turtle and html both fine. And so send the same q value for each. When people serve both HTML and Turtle, then they have to ideally -- send HTML off the HTML is the master and the turtle is a degraded, information lost congestion from the HTML -- if the other way around, like here, that the turtle -- the data -- is the master and the HTML is generated from it, you should return the ←
12:36:29 <timbl> turtle, otherwise you lose the semantics.)
Tim Berners-Lee: turtle, otherwise you lose the semantics.) ←
12:36:58 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
12:37:29 <cygri> PROPOSAL: Servers MUST support Turtle; servers MAY deliver other formats using standard HTTP content negotiation; If the client doesn't indicate a preference, Turtle MUST be returned
PROPOSED: Servers MUST support Turtle; servers MAY deliver other formats using standard HTTP content negotiation; If the client doesn't indicate a preference, Turtle MUST be returned ←
12:37:44 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
12:37:58 <SteveBattle> +1
Steve Battle: +1 ←
12:37:59 <webr3> +1
Nathan Rixham: +1 ←
12:38:02 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
12:38:05 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
12:38:09 <ArnaudLH> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
12:38:09 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
12:38:10 <svillata> +1
Serena Villata: +1 ←
12:38:17 <Ruben> +1
Ruben Verborgh: +1 ←
12:38:32 <krp> +1
Kevin Page: +1 ←
12:38:39 <rgarcia> +1
Raúl García Castro: +1 ←
12:38:41 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
Bart van Leeuwen: +1 ←
12:38:43 <bblfish> +1
Henry Story: +1 ←
12:38:47 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
12:38:48 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
12:38:49 <antonis> +1
Antonis Loizou: +1 ←
12:38:57 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
12:39:03 <roger> +1
Roger Menday: +1 ←
12:39:22 <betehess> +1 but I believe that we must take into account the case the weights are equal (MUST return Turlte)
Alexandre Bertails: +1 but I believe that we must take into account the case the weights are equal (MUST return Turlte) ←
12:39:34 <cygri> ericP: HTTP only says how to specify a header and how a server indicates its format choice; doesn't specify how the server makes the choice. Why should we change this?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: HTTP only says how to specify a header and how a server indicates its format choice; doesn't specify how the server makes the choice. Why should we change this? ←
12:39:38 <sandro> betehess, I think the resolution is clear about that, as "no preference"
Sandro Hawke: betehess, I think the resolution is clear about that, as "no preference" ←
12:40:12 <cygri> [scribe can't follow]
[scribe can't follow] ←
12:40:13 <davidwood> betehess, the proposal does handle that case because the client has not expressed a preference in that case.
David Wood: betehess, the proposal does handle that case because the client has not expressed a preference in that case. ←
12:40:14 <betehess> sandro, I think it's cheap to speak about a "default"
Alexandre Bertails: sandro, I think it's cheap to speak about a "default" ←
12:40:35 <sandro> ArnaudLH, is that RESOLVED, in your chair judgement?
Sandro Hawke: ArnaudLH, is that RESOLVED, in your chair judgement? ←
12:40:44 <betehess> davidwood, maybe a English issue on my side, but I disagree
Alexandre Bertails: davidwood, maybe a English issue on my side, but I disagree ←
12:41:02 <cygri> RESOLVED: Servers MUST support Turtle; servers MAY deliver other formats using standard HTTP content negotiation; If the client doesn't indicate a preference, Turtle MUST be returned
RESOLVED: Servers MUST support Turtle; servers MAY deliver other formats using standard HTTP content negotiation; If the client doesn't indicate a preference, Turtle MUST be returned ←
12:41:15 <sandro> close issue-22
Sandro Hawke: close ISSUE-22 ←
12:41:15 <trackbot> Sorry... closing ISSUE-22 failed, please let sysreq know about it
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry... closing ISSUE-22 failed, please let sysreq know about it ←
12:41:22 <cygri> ArnaudLH: Accordingly, we can close ISSUE-22 and ISSUE-23
Arnaud Le Hors: Accordingly, we can close ISSUE-22 and ISSUE-23 ←
12:42:41 <Ruben> q+
Ruben Verborgh: q+ ←
12:42:45 <betehess> q-
Alexandre Bertails: q- ←
12:42:45 <bblfish> q-
Henry Story: q- ←
12:42:52 <timbl> q?
Tim Berners-Lee: q? ←
12:42:59 <oberger> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/24
Olivier Berger: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/24 ←
12:43:12 <davidwood> q+ to remind the WG on PURL's DELETE behavior
David Wood: q+ to remind the WG on PURL's DELETE behavior ←
12:43:28 <cygri> subtopic: ISSUE-24
12:43:38 <ArnaudLH> ack ruben
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ruben ←
12:43:43 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
12:43:45 <ArnaudLH> ack david
Arnaud Le Hors: ack david ←
12:43:45 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to remind the WG on PURL's DELETE behavior
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to remind the WG on PURL's DELETE behavior ←
12:43:45 <ericP> +1 to not saying anything about re-use
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to not saying anything about re-use ←
12:44:06 <cygri> davidwood: There are legitimate reasons why a server may not re-use a URL.
David Wood: There are legitimate reasons why a server may not re-use a URL. ←
12:44:14 <cygri> ... Example, pURLs.
... Example, pURLs. ←
12:44:31 <cygri> ... I strongly recommend we close this issue by stating that servers decide.
... I strongly recommend we close this issue by stating that servers decide. ←
12:44:38 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+
Ashok Malhotra: q+ ←
12:44:58 <betehess> q+ to offer dev perspective
Alexandre Bertails: q+ to offer dev perspective ←
12:45:08 <ahaller2> q+
Armin Haller: q+ ←
12:45:09 <cygri> ... I have a minor preference for including a sentence that states it's up to the server whether deleted URIs can be recycled.
... I have a minor preference for including a sentence that states it's up to the server whether deleted URIs can be recycled. ←
12:45:15 <ArnaudLH> ack steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves ←
12:45:16 <SteveBattle> q+
Steve Battle: q+ ←
12:45:38 <ArnaudLH> ack steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves ←
12:45:40 <cygri> SteveS: Agree, it's application-specific. I also agree it's not a best practice.
Steve Speicher: Agree, it's application-specific. I also agree it's not a best practice. ←
12:45:43 <ArnaudLH> ack ashok
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok ←
12:46:05 <Ruben> my main issue was the phrasing, which currently is "until another resource is created", as "another" seems to suggest that it can't be the same
Ruben Verborgh: my main issue was the phrasing, which currently is "until another resource is created", as "another" seems to suggest that it can't be the same ←
12:46:10 <cygri> Ashok_Malhotra: Reading 4.5.1 in the spec, it reads like you cannot re-use a URI
Ashok Malhotra: Reading 4.5.1 in the spec, it reads like you cannot re-use a URI ←
12:46:17 <timbl> q+ to say that is a URI has been automatically allocated by the server then it should NEVER EVER be re-used after having been deleted, to avoid people following an old link to new bad data.
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ to say that is a URI has been automatically allocated by the server then it should NEVER EVER be re-used after having been deleted, to avoid people following an old link to new bad data. ←
12:46:27 <cygri> davidwood: [quotes offending spec text]
David Wood: [quotes offending spec text] ←
12:46:35 <AndyS> q+ to wonder about implications on containers and adding entries
Andy Seaborne: q+ to wonder about implications on containers and adding entries ←
12:46:52 <cygri> ... When you create a resource in a container, the server assigns a URI. Server may decide to re-use an existing URI.
... When you create a resource in a container, the server assigns a URI. Server may decide to re-use an existing URI. ←
12:46:57 <Ruben> I agree with timbl that non-reuse should be that way to go⦠or we should at least suggest it
Ruben Verborgh: I agree with timbl that non-reuse should be that way to go⦠or we should at least suggest it ←
12:47:14 <ahaller2> q-
Armin Haller: q- ←
12:47:17 <cygri> q?
q? ←
12:47:41 <cygri> timbl: If a resource was deleted, it's URI should never ever be re-used.
Tim Berners-Lee: If a resource was deleted, it's URI should never ever be re-used. ←
12:47:54 <davidwood> q+ to disagree with Tim.
David Wood: q+ to disagree with Tim. ←
12:48:05 <ArnaudLH> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
12:48:05 <Zakim> betehess, you wanted to offer dev perspective
Zakim IRC Bot: betehess, you wanted to offer dev perspective ←
12:48:06 <AndyS> test -- what about re-PUTing the same content as before?
Andy Seaborne: test -- what about re-PUTing the same content as before? ←
12:48:25 <ericP> vulnerable to the lost-DELETE variant of the lost-UPDATE problem
Eric Prud'hommeaux: vulnerable to the lost-DELETE variant of the lost-UPDATE problem ←
12:48:25 <oberger> q+ to discuss whether this is linked to issue 25
Olivier Berger: q+ to discuss whether this is linked to ISSUE-25 ←
12:48:57 <ArnaudLH> ack steveb
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steveb ←
12:49:02 <Ruben> side-remark: can be reused for the same resource? (e.g., not 410)
Ruben Verborgh: side-remark: can be reused for the same resource? (e.g., not 410) ←
12:49:07 <ericP> party A GETs R1; party B DELETEs R1; party A PUTs R1.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: party A GETs R1; party B DELETEs R1; party A PUTs R1. ←
12:49:17 <cygri> SteveBattle: I agree we should delete 4.5.1 phrasing âuntil another resource is createdâ
Steve Battle: I agree we should delete 4.5.1 phrasing âuntil another resource is createdâ ←
12:49:21 <ericP> (not a real issue if you are tracking ETags well)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: (not a real issue if you are tracking ETags well) ←
12:49:30 <betehess> when people say "application", is it server-side or client-side?
Alexandre Bertails: when people say "application", is it server-side or client-side? ←
12:49:32 <ArnaudLH> ack timbl
Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl ←
12:49:32 <cygri> ... There may be valid reasons for restoring a deleted resource
... There may be valid reasons for restoring a deleted resource ←
12:49:32 <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to say that is a URI has been automatically allocated by the server then it should NEVER EVER be re-used after having been deleted, to avoid people following an
Zakim IRC Bot: timbl, you wanted to say that is a URI has been automatically allocated by the server then it should NEVER EVER be re-used after having been deleted, to avoid people following an ←
12:49:33 <Ruben> ericP: indeed, that should be possible for the *same* resource
Eric Prud'hommeaux: indeed, that should be possible for the *same* resource [ Scribe Assist by Ruben Verborgh ] ←
12:49:35 <Zakim> ... old link to new bad data.
Zakim IRC Bot: ... old link to new bad data. ←
12:49:47 <ArnaudLH> ack andy
Arnaud Le Hors: ack andy ←
12:49:47 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to wonder about implications on containers and adding entries
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to wonder about implications on containers and adding entries ←
12:50:08 <cygri> q+
q+ ←
12:50:40 <ArnaudLH> ack david
Arnaud Le Hors: ack david ←
12:50:40 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to disagree with Tim.
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to disagree with Tim. ←
12:50:44 <oberger> q-
Olivier Berger: q- ←
12:51:25 <cygri> timbl: [clarifies that *server*-assigned URIs should never be re-used after deleting]
Tim Berners-Lee: [clarifies that *server*-assigned URIs should never be re-used after deleting] ←
12:51:33 <AndyS> Some resources e.g. "todays weather" can be reasonably deleted and then PUT.
Andy Seaborne: Some resources e.g. "todays weather" can be reasonably deleted and then PUT. ←
12:51:36 <webr3> q+ to say 4.5 HTTP DELETE should say something about If-Match ETags, and to +1 @ericP's suggestion to replace "until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI." with "The service SHOULD NOT permit the creation of a different resource with the same Request-URI."
Nathan Rixham: q+ to say 4.5 HTTP DELETE should say something about If-Match ETags, and to +1 @ericP's suggestion to replace "until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI." with "The service SHOULD NOT permit the creation of a different resource with the same Request-URI." ←
12:51:37 <betehess> I believe that timbl is restricting his definition to the case we POST to a Container, right?
Alexandre Bertails: I believe that timbl is restricting his definition to the case we POST to a Container, right? ←
12:51:59 <bblfish> agree with AndyS that corner cases ( such as undelete ) should be explained as a best practice
Henry Story: agree with AndyS that corner cases ( such as undelete ) should be explained as a best practice ←
12:52:05 <cygri> davidwood: I suggested earlier that clients should be able to request a certain URI
David Wood: I suggested earlier that clients should be able to request a certain URI ←
12:52:12 <Ruben> is there a way to stop clients from not reusing for different resoruces, in case POST is not used?
Ruben Verborgh: is there a way to stop clients from not reusing for different resources, in case POST is not used? ←
12:52:20 <Ruben> s/resoruces/resources/
12:52:33 <cygri> ... If the server needs to track what resources were allocated and deleted, this makes it harder to create a minimal compliant server
... If the server needs to track what resources were allocated and deleted, this makes it harder to create a minimal compliant server ←
12:52:40 <Ruben> q+
Ruben Verborgh: q+ ←
12:52:43 <AndyS> agree about server assigned URIs ... but rePUT the original content (it's called "restore" :-) or a correction.
Andy Seaborne: agree about server assigned URIs ... but rePUT the original content (it's called "restore" :-) or a correction. ←
12:52:59 <Ruben> q+ to say that recreating the *same* resource is not a problem
Ruben Verborgh: q+ to say that recreating the *same* resource is not a problem ←
12:53:11 <cygri> ... Seen in the wild: create a resource, delete it, create it again; because deleting causes housekeeping in the server
... Seen in the wild: create a resource, delete it, create it again; because deleting causes housekeeping in the server ←
12:53:30 <ArnaudLH> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
12:53:35 <sandro> +1 davidwood allow clients to DELETE and PUT again
Sandro Hawke: +1 davidwood allow clients to DELETE and PUT again ←
12:53:45 <ericP> cygri: we're defining a protocol between a client and a server
Richard Cyganiak: we're defining a protocol between a client and a server [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
12:54:23 <ericP> ... it's important to specify client expectations but not [other] server behavior
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... it's important to specify client expectations but not [other] server behavior ←
12:54:29 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
12:54:45 <ericP> ... i see this as a best practice about server behavior
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... i see this as a best practice about server behavior ←
12:54:48 <sandro> cygri: I agree with Tim that servers should not generate the same URI twice, but I don't think that's part of the protocol
Richard Cyganiak: I agree with Tim that servers should not generate the same URI twice, but I don't think that's part of the protocol [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:54:49 <AndyS> +1 to ruben : *same* resource / *different* resource is the key point. Can't mandate in the protocol about such "sameness". Having advice in docs is *very* helpful.
Andy Seaborne: +1 to ruben : *same* resource / *different* resource is the key point. Can't mandate in the protocol about such "sameness". Having advice in docs is *very* helpful. ←
12:54:59 <betehess> as an implementor, I'd like to know the expected behaviour
Alexandre Bertails: as an implementor, I'd like to know the expected behaviour ←
12:55:09 <cygri> timbl: I request a new URI, I want it to be never used before. That's part of the protocol
Tim Berners-Lee: I request a new URI, I want it to be never used before. That's part of the protocol ←
12:55:11 <bblfish> nathan? on the phone?
Henry Story: nathan? on the phone? ←
12:55:15 <webr3> q-
Nathan Rixham: q- ←
12:55:17 <AndyS> webr3?
Andy Seaborne: webr3? ←
12:55:17 <webr3> no phone
Nathan Rixham: no phone ←
12:55:27 <ArnaudLH> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
12:55:33 <betehess> s|webr3?||
Alexandre Bertails: s|webr3?|| ←
12:55:36 <ArnaudLH> ack ruben
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ruben ←
12:55:36 <Zakim> Ruben, you wanted to say that recreating the *same* resource is not a problem
Zakim IRC Bot: Ruben, you wanted to say that recreating the *same* resource is not a problem ←
12:55:41 <betehess> s|no phone||
Alexandre Bertails: s|no phone|| ←
12:55:42 <sandro> timbl: I want part of the protocol to be that servers will generate new unique URIs each time
Tim Berners-Lee: I want part of the protocol to be that servers will generate new unique URIs each time [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:55:49 <betehess> s|nathan? on the phone?||
Alexandre Bertails: s|nathan? on the phone?|| ←
12:55:51 <ericP> timbl: i disagree that this isn't in the protocol [i.e. client expecation]
Tim Berners-Lee: i disagree that this isn't in the protocol [i.e. client expecation] [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
12:55:58 <ArnaudLH> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
12:55:59 <cygri> Ruben: There's a difference between using re-using a URI for the same resource, and using same URI for a different one
Ruben Verborgh: There's a difference between using re-using a URI for the same resource, and using same URI for a different one ←
12:56:11 <ArnaudLH> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
12:56:20 <JohnArwe> @webr3, same #s we use for weekly calls
John Arwe: @webr3, same #s we use for weekly calls ←
12:56:24 <timbl> q+ to say this IS a portico issue: when the client adds a new resource and server end an id, it is a valuable property of the protocol that the client knows that URI will never be issued to her or anyone else, even if she gives it back.
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ to say this IS a protocol issue: when the client adds a new resource and server end an id, it is a valuable property of the protocol that the client knows that URI will never be issued to her or anyone else, even if she gives it back. ←
12:56:28 <timbl> q-
Tim Berners-Lee: q- ←
12:56:32 <betehess> s|@webr3, same #s we use for weekly calls||
Alexandre Bertails: s|@webr3, same #s we use for weekly calls|| ←
12:56:43 <cygri> bblfish: The container part of the spec should say that POST gives you a new URI. If it's not fresh, it's not a new one.
Henry Story: The container part of the spec should say that POST gives you a new URI. If it's not fresh, it's not a new one. ←
12:56:59 <davidwood> s/portico/protocol/
12:57:12 <ericP> q+ to say that webr appears had proposed text
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to say that webr appears had proposed text ←
12:57:17 <Ruben> +q to say I'm against just removing
Ruben Verborgh: +q to say I'm against just removing ←
12:57:19 <antonis> q+
Antonis Loizou: q+ ←
12:57:45 <cygri> ericP: [reads earlier webr3 comment]
Eric Prud'hommeaux: [reads earlier webr3 comment] ←
12:57:46 <davidwood> +1 to Ruben. Removing the text is not sufficient.
David Wood: +1 to Ruben. Removing the text is not sufficient. ←
12:58:03 <ArnaudLH> PROPOSAL: delete "until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI."
PROPOSED: delete "until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI." ←
12:58:26 <Ruben> -1 for just deleting, need to clarify what is possible
Ruben Verborgh: -1 for just deleting, need to clarify what is possible ←
12:58:43 <sandro> -1 agreed; I want a change proposal, not just to remove it
Sandro Hawke: -1 agreed; I want a change proposal, not just to remove it ←
12:58:48 <davidwood> -1 to just removing
David Wood: -1 to just removing ←
12:58:54 <HadleyBeeman> *wonders if this issue goes back to the old discussion about whether a URI refers to one and only one thing.
Hadley Beeman: *wonders if this issue goes back to the old discussion about whether a URI refers to one and only one thing. ←
12:59:11 <davidwood> HadleyBeeman, yes.
David Wood: HadleyBeeman, yes. ←
12:59:16 <ArnaudLH> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
12:59:17 <timbl> The server MUST never reallocate the same server-allocated URI twice. The client should nor use the same client-generated URI to refer to different things.
Tim Berners-Lee: The server MUST never reallocate the same server-allocated URI twice. The client should not use the same client-generated URI to refer to different things. ←
12:59:28 <sandro> s/nor/not
12:59:37 <ericP> ack me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ack me ←
12:59:38 <oberger> do we need a "compare" primitive in the servers to be able to determine resource "sameness" ?
Olivier Berger: do we need a "compare" primitive in the servers to be able to determine resource "sameness" ? ←
12:59:38 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that webr appears had proposed text
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to say that webr appears had proposed text ←
12:59:40 <HadleyBeeman> Thanks, davidwood. Pieces falling together :)
Hadley Beeman: Thanks, davidwood. Pieces falling together :) ←
12:59:48 <roger> in my experience, there is a very limited number of cases for using DELETE. once something exists, i think it is good to know later on that it did once exist
Roger Menday: in my experience, there is a very limited number of cases for using DELETE. once something exists, i think it is good to know later on that it did once exist ←
12:59:54 <cygri> [scribe fail]
[scribe fail] ←
13:00:02 <roger> not that it changes the issue ...
Roger Menday: not that it changes the issue ... ←
13:00:26 <ArnaudLH> ack eric
Arnaud Le Hors: ack eric ←
13:00:29 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
13:00:33 <ArnaudLH> ack ruben
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ruben ←
13:00:33 <Zakim> Ruben, you wanted to say I'm against just removing
Zakim IRC Bot: Ruben, you wanted to say I'm against just removing ←
13:00:49 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
13:00:52 <cygri> q+ to say you can't PUT a resource
q+ to say you can't PUT a resource ←
13:01:20 <sandro> +1 cygri, you can't delete a resource
Sandro Hawke: +1 cygri, you can't delete a resource ←
13:01:22 <Ruben> q-
Ruben Verborgh: q- ←
13:01:22 <ArnaudLH> ack antonis
Arnaud Le Hors: ack antonis ←
13:01:27 <nmihindu> q+
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: q+ ←
13:01:32 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
13:01:55 <cygri> antonis: Two separate cases. 1. Remove a resoruce from a container, forever. 2. We want to change a resource, e.g., weather
Antonis Loizou: Two separate cases. 1. Remove a resoruce from a container, forever. 2. We want to change a resource, e.g., weather ←
13:02:21 <sandro> how could you know you'll never want to put a resource back into a container?
Sandro Hawke: how could you know you'll never want to put a resource back into a container? ←
13:02:26 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
13:02:31 <svillata> q?
Serena Villata: q? ←
13:02:37 <ArnaudLH> ack steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves ←
13:02:41 <Ruben> " a resource R is a temporally varying membership function MR(t), which for time t maps to a set of entities, or values, which are equivalent."
Ruben Verborgh: " a resource R is a temporally varying membership function MR(t), which for time t maps to a set of entities, or values, which are equivalent." ←
13:02:41 <bblfish> I'd be for voting on deleting. It's easier
Henry Story: I'd be for voting on deleting. It's easier ←
13:03:01 <Ruben> "Some resources are static in the sense that, when examined at any time after their creation, they always correspond to the same value set. Others have a high degree of variance in their value over time. The only thing that is required to be static for a resource is the semantics of the mapping, since the semantics is what distinguishes one resource from another."
Ruben Verborgh: "Some resources are static in the sense that, when examined at any time after their creation, they always correspond to the same value set. Others have a high degree of variance in their value over time. The only thing that is required to be static for a resource is the semantics of the mapping, since the semantics is what distinguishes one resource from another." ←
13:03:21 <ericP> q?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q? ←
13:03:30 <JohnArwe> +1 ruben
13:03:32 <bblfish> but how can you delete a methematical object?
Henry Story: but how can you delete a methematical object? ←
13:03:39 <ArnaudLH> ack sandro
Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro ←
13:03:51 <davidwood> timbl made a proposal that may have become lost. "The server MUST never reallocate the same server-allocated URI twice. The client SHOULD NOT use the same client-generated URI to refer to different things."
David Wood: timbl made a proposal that may have become lost. "The server MUST never reallocate the same server-allocated URI twice. The client SHOULD NOT use the same client-generated URI to refer to different things." ←
13:03:59 <Ruben> bblfish: you can delete it from a server
Henry Story: you can delete it from a server [ Scribe Assist by Ruben Verborgh ] ←
13:04:40 <cygri> sandro: You delete a file in the file system, you can create a new one with the same name. Anything else would be absurd
Sandro Hawke: You delete a file in the file system, you can create a new one with the same name. Anything else would be absurd ←
13:04:48 <bblfish> yes, but the resource is the thing pointed by the URI.
Henry Story: yes, but the resource is the thing pointed by the URI. ←
13:05:01 <cygri> oberger: A directory is a container. It's happening in the container.
Olivier Berger: A directory is a container. It's happening in the container. ←
13:05:08 <antonis> q+
Antonis Loizou: q+ ←
13:05:12 <ArnaudLH> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
13:05:13 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to say you can't PUT a resource
Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to say you can't PUT a resource ←
13:05:14 <cygri> sandro: Deleting in file system is same as HTTP delete
Sandro Hawke: Deleting in file system is same as HTTP delete ←
13:05:26 <betehess> cygri: maybe we shouldn't be talking about identity of resource
Richard Cyganiak: maybe we shouldn't be talking about identity of resource [ Scribe Assist by Alexandre Bertails ] ←
13:05:31 <betehess> ... rather what happens to the container
Alexandre Bertails: ... rather what happens to the container ←
13:05:45 <betehess> ... was URI assigned to the server?
Alexandre Bertails: ... was URI assigned to the server? ←
13:05:50 <ericP> cygri: we SHOULDn't be talking about DELETing a resource but instead POSTing to a container
Richard Cyganiak: we SHOULDn't be talking about DELETing a resource but instead POSTing to a container [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
13:05:50 <sandro> oberger, I'm not thinking about containers here.
Sandro Hawke: oberger, I'm not thinking about containers here. ←
13:05:51 <bblfish> cygri: one should not talk about what one should do when one deletes a resource, but what should be done when one POSTs to a container
Richard Cyganiak: one should not talk about what one should do when one deletes a resource, but what should be done when one POSTs to a container [ Scribe Assist by Henry Story ] ←
13:05:54 <bblfish> +1
Henry Story: +1 ←
13:05:57 <SteveBattle> +1
Steve Battle: +1 ←
13:06:08 <svillata> +1
Serena Villata: +1 ←
13:06:08 <betehess> ... what's the constraint on the server?
Alexandre Bertails: ... what's the constraint on the server? ←
13:06:12 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
13:06:12 <oberger> verbs CREATE and ADD TO CONTAINER should really be distinguished
Olivier Berger: verbs CREATE and ADD TO CONTAINER should really be distinguished ←
13:06:13 <ericP> ... timbl asked about the constraint on the server and the server assigns the URI
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... timbl asked about the constraint on the server and the server assigns the URI ←
13:06:20 <ArnaudLH> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
13:06:24 <svillata> q?
Serena Villata: q? ←
13:06:31 <SteveBattle> The constraint is to not generate the same URI twice
Steve Battle: The constraint is to not generate the same URI twice ←
13:06:31 <ericP> ... that's the place were we can state more clearly what happens with these URIs
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... that's the place were we can state more clearly what happens with these URIs ←
13:06:33 <ArnaudLH> ack nmihindu
Arnaud Le Hors: ack nmihindu ←
13:06:49 <cygri> nmihindu: Putting in the spec that it must be the same entity/resource is practically infeasible.
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Putting in the spec that it must be the same entity/resource is practically infeasible. ←
13:06:50 <ahaller2> q+
Armin Haller: q+ ←
13:06:55 <SteveS> Trying to establish a basic model if resource URI used to get, update, then if deleted, you would not expect to update a resource that does not exist. Semantics may be that put can be used to create resources of a known name, which is not update in my mind
Steve Speicher: Trying to establish a basic model if resource URI used to get, update, then if deleted, you would not expect to update a resource that does not exist. Semantics may be that put can be used to create resources of a known name, which is not update in my mind ←
13:06:55 <ArnaudLH> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
13:06:57 <timbl> q?
Tim Berners-Lee: q? ←
13:07:25 <Ruben> â¦unless it's a 410, then you know it existed at some time
Ruben Verborgh: â¦unless it's a 410, then you know it existed at some time ←
13:07:33 <cygri> betehess: I would expect the invariant from the server that after I GET and get a 404, I can do a PUT and create the resource.
Alexandre Bertails: I would expect the invariant from the server that after I GET and get a 404, I can do a PUT and create the resource. ←
13:07:44 <cygri> ... We don't know if the resource existed before or not.
... We don't know if the resource existed before or not. ←
13:07:56 <ArnaudLH> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
13:08:30 <cygri> bblfish: If you do a DELETE and the client gets a 404, shouldn't clients put this in an index of things they never should request again?
Henry Story: If you do a DELETE and the client gets a 404, shouldn't clients put this in an index of things they never should request again? ←
13:08:33 <Ruben> 404 doesn't imply permanency⦠can be 404 before a resource was created
Ruben Verborgh: 404 doesn't imply permanency⦠can be 404 before a resource was created ←
13:08:43 <JohnArwe> q+ security and debug considerations
John Arwe: q+ security and debug considerations ←
13:08:48 <ericP> bblfish is getting into the contentious space of negative directory caching
Eric Prud'hommeaux: bblfish is getting into the contentious space of negative directory caching ←
13:08:55 <JohnArwe> q+
13:09:01 <cygri> BartvanLeeuwen: Isn't there another code for that?
Bart van Leeuwen: Isn't there another code for that? ←
13:09:04 <cygri> ericP: 410
Eric Prud'hommeaux: 410 ←
13:09:05 <ArnaudLH> ack antonis
Arnaud Le Hors: ack antonis ←
13:09:09 <ericP> (which was a bane of AFS)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: (which was a bane of AFS) ←
13:09:24 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec10.htmlhttp://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec10.html
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec10.htmlhttp://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec10.html ←
13:09:39 <sandro> "10.4.11 410 Gone
Sandro Hawke: "10.4.11 410 Gone ←
13:09:39 <sandro> The requested resource is no longer available at the server and no forwarding address is known. This condition is expected to be considered permanent."
Sandro Hawke: The requested resource is no longer available at the server and no forwarding address is known. This condition is expected to be considered permanent." ←
13:09:40 <Ruben> the 404 can include a reason
Ruben Verborgh: the 404 can include a reason ←
13:09:44 <cygri> antonis: There are two different modes for deletion. Sometimes there's scientific data that is invalid, we want to really delete it. 404 is not strong enough.
Antonis Loizou: There are two different modes for deletion. Sometimes there's scientific data that is invalid, we want to really delete it. 404 is not strong enough. ←
13:09:49 <cygri> q+
q+ ←
13:09:50 <ArnaudLH> ack ahaller
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ahaller ←
13:09:53 <bblfish> yes, thanks. for the 410
Henry Story: yes, thanks. for the 410 ←
13:10:13 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
13:10:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see St_Clair_3B, JohnArwe, AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see St_Clair_3B, JohnArwe, AndyS ←
13:10:13 <betehess> 410 looks like a difficult constraint to impose in the general case
Alexandre Bertails: 410 looks like a difficult constraint to impose in the general case ←
13:10:33 <betehess> probably good practice
Alexandre Bertails: probably good practice ←
13:11:42 <oberger> q+ suggesting we should we discuss creation and ownership by containers
Olivier Berger: q+ suggesting we should we discuss creation and ownership by containers ←
13:11:45 <bblfish> bad practice has a cost
Henry Story: bad practice has a cost ←
13:12:04 <bblfish> q?
Henry Story: q? ←
13:12:18 <oberger> q+, suggesting we should we discuss creation and ownership by containers
Olivier Berger: q+, suggesting we should we discuss creation and ownership by containers ←
13:12:24 <oberger> wth
Olivier Berger: wth ←
13:12:25 <oberger> q+
Olivier Berger: q+ ←
13:12:30 <Ruben> *oberger, say q+ to blabla*
Ruben Verborgh: *oberger, say q+ to blabla* ←
13:12:41 <Ruben> *the "to" is important*
Ruben Verborgh: *the "to" is important* ←
13:12:53 <betehess> s|wth||
Alexandre Bertails: s|wth|| ←
13:13:02 <betehess> s|q+, suggesting we should we discuss creation and ownership by containers||
Alexandre Bertails: s|q+, suggesting we should we discuss creation and ownership by containers|| ←
13:13:05 <cygri> ahaller2: Example: server uses hash function to generate URI. Can't guarantee that you get a clash
Armin Haller: Example: server uses hash function to generate URI. Can't guarantee that you get a clash ←
13:13:06 <betehess> s|q+ suggesting we should we discuss creation and ownership by containers||
Alexandre Bertails: s|q+ suggesting we should we discuss creation and ownership by containers|| ←
13:13:15 <cygri> timbl: That server will be statistically conforming
Tim Berners-Lee: That server will be statistically conforming ←
13:13:16 <ArnaudLH> ack john
Arnaud Le Hors: ack john ←
13:13:59 <cygri> JohnArwe: Whether today's weather can be deleted depends on the concept on the server.
John Arwe: Whether today's weather can be deleted depends on the concept on the server. ←
13:14:04 <sandro> q+ to suggest PROPOSED: Close issue-24, saying "No", after a resource is deleted it might come back, in some circumstances. If the URI was created by a client PUT, then it's reasonable for a client to DELETE it, then PUT again to re-create it.
Sandro Hawke: q+ to suggest PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-24, saying "No", after a resource is deleted it might come back, in some circumstances. If the URI was created by a client PUT, then it's reasonable for a client to DELETE it, then PUT again to re-create it. ←
13:14:32 <cygri> ... In loosely coupled environment, 410 is useful
... In loosely coupled environment, 410 is useful ←
13:15:01 <timbl> (cygri, yes the server operator of one which generates large random numbers can afford to buy everyone a round of drinks if they collide. But it is very easy to keep a little .nextid file in the directory and use it to track the next id to allocate.)
Tim Berners-Lee: (cygri, yes the server operator of one which generates large random numbers can afford to buy everyone a round of drinks if they collide. But it is very easy to keep a little .nextid file in the directory and use it to track the next id to allocate.) ←
13:15:33 <Ruben> sandro: remember the title was a bit of a misnomer, the actual question is whether, after deletion, we should suggest to reuse the same URI for a different resource
Sandro Hawke: remember the title was a bit of a misnomer, the actual question is whether, after deletion, we should suggest to reuse the same URI for a different resource [ Scribe Assist by Ruben Verborgh ] ←
13:15:48 <bblfish> thanks
Henry Story: thanks ←
13:15:52 <ArnaudLH> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
13:16:14 <ericP> q+ to say that sandro's discovery has pushed me to amend web3r's text
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to say that sandro's discovery has pushed me to amend web3r's text ←
13:17:10 <ericP> cygri: we seem to mostly agree that if a client doesn't know the server's DELETE policy, and the server returns a 404 or 410, the file MIGHT come back
Richard Cyganiak: we seem to mostly agree that if a client doesn't know the server's DELETE policy, and the server returns a 404 or 410, the file MIGHT come back [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
13:17:22 <ericP> ... the filesystem analogy is compelling to me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... the filesystem analogy is compelling to me ←
13:17:39 <ericP> ... i agree that server-assigned IDs should only be assigned once
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... i agree that server-assigned IDs should only be assigned once ←
13:17:45 <Ashok_Malhotra> q?
Ashok Malhotra: q? ←
13:17:59 <sandro> cygri: I see that server-assigned IDs should not be re-assigned. that's likely to cause problems. let's address that in POST-to-Container text
Richard Cyganiak: I see that server-assigned IDs should not be re-assigned. that's likely to cause problems. let's address that in POST-to-Container text [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:18:03 <ericP> ... POST->ID/1 ; POST->ID/1 will of course create problems
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... POST->ID/1 ; POST->ID/1 will of course create problems ←
13:18:12 <ericP> ... that's two issues to resolve
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... that's two issues to resolve ←
13:18:16 <Ruben> betehess: this is not REST, but Cool URIs
Alexandre Bertails: this is not REST, but Cool URIs [ Scribe Assist by Ruben Verborgh ] ←
13:18:27 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
13:18:39 <ericP> ... third issue: different expecations if the server returns a 404 or a 410
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... third issue: different expecations if the server returns a 404 or a 410 ←
13:18:48 <bblfish> q?
Henry Story: q? ←
13:19:12 <ericP> ... the HTTP spec says that 410 is permanent, but doesn't say if the client is not supposed to do a PUT
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... the HTTP spec says that 410 is permanent, but doesn't say if the client is not supposed to do a PUT ←
13:19:22 <betehess> ack ober
Alexandre Bertails: ack ober ←
13:19:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
13:19:54 <cygri> oberger: If we haven't properly discussed creation, then we can't properly discuss deletion. We should discuss ISSUE-25 first.
Olivier Berger: If we haven't properly discussed creation, then we can't properly discuss deletion. We should discuss ISSUE-25 first. ←
13:20:01 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
13:20:09 <Ashok_Malhotra> ack next
Ashok Malhotra: ack next ←
13:20:10 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to suggest PROPOSED: Close issue-24, saying "No", after a resource is deleted it might come back, in some circumstances. If the URI was created by a client
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to suggest PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-24, saying "No", after a resource is deleted it might come back, in some circumstances. If the URI was created by a client ←
13:20:10 <Zakim> ... PUT, then it's reasonable for a client to DELETE it, then PUT again to re-create it.
Zakim IRC Bot: ... PUT, then it's reasonable for a client to DELETE it, then PUT again to re-create it. ←
13:20:18 <ArnaudLH> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
13:20:46 <betehess> -1 to say that much
Alexandre Bertails: -1 to say that much ←
13:21:02 <betehess> we would overstep on the http spec
Alexandre Bertails: we would overstep on the http spec ←
13:21:14 <svillata> q?
Serena Villata: q? ←
13:21:23 <ericP> - until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: - until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI. ←
13:21:23 <ericP> + . The service SHOULD NOT permit the creation of a different resource with the same Request-URI.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: + . The service SHOULD NOT permit the creation of a different resource with the same Request-URI. ←
13:21:26 <ericP> + Note that HTTP considers any DELETEd resource for which the server returns a 410 Gone to be permanently removed.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: + Note that HTTP considers any DELETEd resource for which the server returns a 410 Gone to be permanently removed. ←
13:21:29 <ericP> + A server SHOULD (@@MUST?) NOT permit either a later PUT to a POST to re-create such a resource.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: + A server SHOULD (@@MUST?) NOT permit either a later PUT to a POST to re-create such a resource. ←
13:21:33 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
13:22:02 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
13:22:37 <bblfish> q?
Henry Story: q? ←
13:22:42 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
13:22:44 <ericP> + . The service SHOULD NOT create (as a response to a POST) of a different resource with the same Request-URI.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: + . The service SHOULD NOT create (as a response to a POST) of a different resource with the same Request-URI. ←
13:22:44 <betehess> ack eric
Alexandre Bertails: ack eric ←
13:22:44 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that sandro's discovery has pushed me to amend web3r's text
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to say that sandro's discovery has pushed me to amend web3r's text ←
13:22:49 <ericP> + . The service SHOULD NOT create (as a response to a POST) a different resource with the same Request-URI.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: + . The service SHOULD NOT create (as a response to a POST) a different resource with the same Request-URI. ←
13:23:13 <timbl> You can't say "a different resource"
Tim Berners-Lee: You can't say "a different resource" ←
13:23:21 <sandro> thinking: PROPOSED: Close issue-24, saying "No", after a resource is deleted it might come back, in some circumstances. For example, If the URI was allocated by a client PUT, then it's reasonable for a client to do a DELETE on that URI, then PUT again with the same URI to re-allocated it.
Sandro Hawke: thinking: PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-24, saying "No", after a resource is deleted it might come back, in some circumstances. For example, If the URI was allocated by a client PUT, then it's reasonable for a client to do a DELETE on that URI, then PUT again with the same URI to re-allocated it. ←
13:23:27 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
13:23:39 <bblfish> q-
Henry Story: q- ←
13:23:39 <ericP> + . The service SHOULD NOT create (as a response to a POST to the Request-URI's container) a different resource with the same Request-URI.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: + . The service SHOULD NOT create (as a response to a POST to the Request-URI's container) a different resource with the same Request-URI. ←
13:23:55 <cygri> q+
q+ ←
13:24:08 <cygri> q-
q- ←
13:24:14 <timbl> The server should never allocate the same URI twice in response to a POST to a container.
Tim Berners-Lee: The server should never allocate the same URI twice in response to a POST to a container. ←
13:24:25 <sandro> thinking: PROPOSED: Close issue-24 (Should DELETED resources remain deleted?) saying "Not Necessaril", after a resource is deleted it might come back, in some circumstances. For example, If the URI was allocated by a client PUT, then it's reasonable for a client to do a DELETE on that URI, then PUT again with the same URI to re-allocated it.
Sandro Hawke: thinking: PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-24 (Should DELETED resources remain deleted?) saying "Not Necessaril", after a resource is deleted it might come back, in some circumstances. For example, If the URI was allocated by a client PUT, then it's reasonable for a client to do a DELETE on that URI, then PUT again with the same URI to re-allocated it. ←
13:25:02 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
(Scribe set to Eric Prud'hommeaux)
13:25:09 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
13:25:14 <timbl> seconded
Tim Berners-Lee: seconded ←
13:25:43 <svillata> q?
Serena Villata: q? ←
13:25:46 <ericP> oberger: do we have a use case to refer to?
Olivier Berger: do we have a use case to refer to? ←
13:26:03 <ericP> cygri: i think we all know the filesystem use case
Richard Cyganiak: i think we all know the filesystem use case ←
13:26:09 <bblfish> q?
Henry Story: q? ←
13:26:33 <ericP> betehess: we have no authority over HTTP
Alexandre Bertails: we have no authority over HTTP ←
13:26:56 <ericP> sandro: and you know that 404 isn't permanent in HTTP world, right?
Sandro Hawke: and you know that 404 isn't permanent in HTTP world, right? ←
13:26:56 <ArnaudLH> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
13:27:22 <sandro> Yves, are you an HTTP expert?
Sandro Hawke: Yves, are you an HTTP expert? ←
13:27:31 <ericP> betehess: we don't have people can tell us how HTTP is used out there
Alexandre Bertails: we don't have people can tell us how HTTP is used out there ←
13:28:01 <ericP> timbl: i perfer to treat 404 and 410 just the same
Tim Berners-Lee: i perfer to treat 404 and 410 just the same ←
13:28:03 <ArnaudLH> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
13:28:22 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close issue-24 (Should DELETED resources remain deleted?) saying "Not Necessaril", after a resource is deleted it might come back, in some circumstances. For example, If the URI was allocated by a client PUT, then it's reasonable for a client to do a DELETE on that URI, then PUT again with the same URI to re-allocated it.
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-24 (Should DELETED resources remain deleted?) saying "Not necessarily", after a resource is deleted it might come back, in some circumstances. For example, If the URI was allocated by a client PUT, then it's reasonable for a client to do a DELETE on that URI, then PUT again with the same URI to re-allocated it. ←
13:28:24 <ArnaudLH> ack sandro
Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro ←
13:28:36 <ericP> sandro: i'd like to be done with issue 24 and record the fact that we all seem to agree
Sandro Hawke: i'd like to be done with ISSUE-24 and record the fact that we all seem to agree ←
13:28:43 <SteveBattle> +1
Steve Battle: +1 ←
13:28:58 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
13:29:01 <Ruben> +1
Ruben Verborgh: +1 ←
13:29:02 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
13:29:03 <ericP> +1
+1 ←
13:29:05 <ahaller2> +1
Armin Haller: +1 ←
13:29:06 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
Bart van Leeuwen: +1 ←
13:29:07 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
13:29:07 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
13:29:08 <betehess> +1
Alexandre Bertails: +1 ←
13:29:09 <roger> +1
Roger Menday: +1 ←
13:29:09 <rgarcia> +1
Raúl García Castro: +1 ←
13:29:10 <bblfish> q?
Henry Story: q? ←
13:29:11 <ArnaudLH> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
13:29:13 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
13:29:14 <svillata> +1
Serena Villata: +1 ←
13:29:14 <ivan> s/Necessaril/necessarily/
13:29:23 <JohnArwe> +1
13:29:24 <timbl> +1
Tim Berners-Lee: +1 ←
13:29:25 <krp> +1
Kevin Page: +1 ←
13:29:40 <ericP> cygri: i agree, but don't think our spec contains examples of what's already constrained by the HTTP spec
Richard Cyganiak: i agree, but don't think our spec contains examples of what's already constrained by the HTTP spec ←
13:30:09 <ArnaudLH> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
13:30:13 <ericP> ... if it doesn't further constrain the HTTP spec, we shouldn't include it
... if it doesn't further constrain the HTTP spec, we shouldn't include it ←
13:30:23 <betehess> would this is normative or informative?
Alexandre Bertails: would this be normative or informative? ←
13:30:30 <betehess> s/this is/this be/
13:31:06 <ericP> cygri: per this resolution, the spec can remain the same
Richard Cyganiak: per this resolution, the spec can remain the same ←
13:31:36 <sandro> (temporarily) RESOLVED: Close issue-24 (Should DELETED resources remain deleted?) saying "Not Necessarily", after a resource is deleted it might come back, in some circumstances. For example, If the URI was allocated by a client PUT, then it's reasonable for a client to do a DELETE on that URI, then PUT again with the same URI to re-allocated it.
Sandro Hawke: (temporarily) RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-24 (Should DELETED resources remain deleted?) saying "Not Necessarily", after a resource is deleted it might come back, in some circumstances. For example, If the URI was allocated by a client PUT, then it's reasonable for a client to do a DELETE on that URI, then PUT again with the same URI to re-allocated it. ←
13:31:39 <webr3> remove "until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI." replace with something else
Nathan Rixham: remove "until the state of the resource is changed again." replace with something else ←
13:31:40 <krp> The words "another" and "created" in combination imply something that isn't intende
Kevin Page: The words "another" and "created" in combination imply something that isn't intende ←
13:31:59 <cygri> s/until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI/until the state of the resource is changed again/
13:32:09 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
13:32:15 <bblfish> q-
Henry Story: q- ←
13:32:23 <ArnaudLH> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
13:32:34 <rgarcia> +q
Raúl García Castro: +q ←
13:32:43 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
13:32:55 <ericP> cygri: PROPOSED: s/until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI/until the state of the resource is changed again/
Richard Cyganiak: PROPOSED: s/until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI/until the state of the resource is changed again/ ←
13:33:05 <Ruben> +1 on cygri's proposal
Ruben Verborgh: +1 on cygri's proposal ←
13:33:08 <webr3> -1
Nathan Rixham: -1 ←
13:33:16 <ericP> bblfish: we can include text which describes some of the problems
Henry Story: we can include text which describes some of the problems ←
13:33:34 <ericP> ... there are all kinds of consequences about changing a 410
... there are all kinds of consequences about changing a 410 ←
13:33:47 <webr3> proposed: s/until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI// then have informative text about 404+410 and not cha
PROPOSED: s/until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI// then have informative text about 404+410 and not cha ←
13:33:57 <webr3> .. changing the uri's usage
Nathan Rixham: .. changing the uri's usage ←
13:34:04 <bblfish> q-
Henry Story: q- ←
13:34:15 <ArnaudLH> ack rgarcia
Arnaud Le Hors: ack rgarcia ←
13:34:16 <ericP> ... e.g. if you check the logs and no one's gotten a 410, then no one knows it's gone
... e.g. if you check the logs and no one's gotten a 410, then no one knows it's gone ←
13:34:48 <oberger> q+ to propose better use cases
Olivier Berger: q+ to propose better use cases ←
13:34:54 <davidwood> SteveS, I propose removing the phrase and adding a sentence, "Clients should note that severs may reuse a Request-URI under some circumstances."
David Wood: SteveS, I propose removing the phrase and adding a sentence, "Clients should note that severs may reuse a Request-URI under some circumstances." ←
13:34:56 <ericP> rgarcia: this should be part of the HTTP guide where we say the behavior of this HTTP verb is X
Raúl García Castro: this should be part of the HTTP guide where we say the behavior of this HTTP verb is X ←
13:34:56 <ArnaudLH> ack oberger
Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger ←
13:34:56 <Zakim> oberger, you wanted to propose better use cases
Zakim IRC Bot: oberger, you wanted to propose better use cases ←
13:35:02 <ericP> oberger: we need use cases
Olivier Berger: we need use cases ←
13:35:16 <ericP> ... we have different interpretations of HTTP DELETE
... we have different interpretations of HTTP DELETE ←
13:35:29 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
13:35:49 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
13:35:56 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
13:35:56 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
13:35:58 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
13:35:58 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
13:35:59 <sandro> q+ to talk about use cases being a sometimes-necessary expense
Sandro Hawke: q+ to talk about use cases being a sometimes-necessary expense ←
13:36:00 <ArnaudLH> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
13:36:28 <sandro> +1 cygri -- what HTTP spec says about DELETE is enough
Sandro Hawke: +1 cygri -- what HTTP spec says about DELETE is enough ←
13:36:28 <ericP> cygri: i'm not convinced we need to go beyond the HTTP spec for DELETE
Richard Cyganiak: i'm not convinced we need to go beyond the HTTP spec for DELETE ←
13:36:31 <betehess> why am I hoping that this issue is already fully solved in HTTP spec? maybe in Fielding's thesis?
Alexandre Bertails: why am I hoping that this issue is already fully solved in HTTP spec? maybe in Fielding's thesis? ←
13:36:39 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
13:36:58 <Ruben> betehess: not in F's thesis
Alexandre Bertails: not in F's thesis [ Scribe Assist by Ruben Verborgh ] ←
13:36:58 <ericP> ... we are bound by HTTP, and we can add specific behavior that distinguishes an LDP server
... we are bound by HTTP, and we can add specific behavior that distinguishes an LDP server ←
13:37:04 <timbl> Agree, you should only add constraints to the HTTP spec where you really need to for a special LDP-specific reason.
Tim Berners-Lee: Agree, you should only add constraints to the HTTP spec where you really need to for a special LDP-specific reason. ←
13:37:06 <FabGandon> +1 cygri (from observer)
Fabien Gandon: +1 cygri (from observer) ←
13:37:11 <webr3> can somebody say for me (no mic): '''can the resolution just be to remove the text "until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI" and close the issue, then later if more text is needed write it'''
Nathan Rixham: can somebody say for me (no mic): '''can the resolution just be to remove the text "until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI" and close the issue, then later if more text is needed write it''' ←
13:37:26 <SteveBattle> Can we put this issue to bed - pleeeeaaase?
Steve Battle: Can we put this issue to bed - pleeeeaaase? ←
13:37:31 <svillata> +1 cygri
Serena Villata: +1 cygri ←
13:37:36 <sandro> no webr3 some of us -1'd that
Sandro Hawke: no webr3 some of us -1'd that ←
13:37:39 <ericP> ... i haven't heard us proposing a stronger behavior than HTTP's DELETE
... i haven't heard us proposing a stronger behavior than HTTP's DELETE ←
13:37:54 <ericP> davidwood: doesn't 4.5.2 extend HTTP's DELETE?
David Wood: doesn't 4.5.2 extend HTTP's DELETE? ←
13:38:08 <Ruben> *betehess, the text is online, too. I've read it, and it's not there*
Ruben Verborgh: *betehess, the text is online, too. I've read it, and it's not there* ←
13:38:21 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+
Ashok Malhotra: q+ ←
13:38:22 <ericP> cygri: it's a MAY and only talks about how it applies to our resources
Richard Cyganiak: it's a MAY and only talks about how it applies to our resources ←
13:38:59 <timbl> q?
Tim Berners-Lee: q? ←
13:39:25 <ericP> ... the resource to which we send the DELETE is a web resource which might have an associated RDF resource
... the resource to which we send the DELETE is a web resource which might have an associated RDF resource ←
13:39:53 <bblfish> q-
Henry Story: q- ←
13:39:58 <ericP> ArnaudLH: there's no reason for the text apart from stating what HTTP mandates
Arnaud Le Hors: there's no reason for the text apart from stating what HTTP mandates ←
13:40:06 <svillata> q?
Serena Villata: q? ←
13:40:10 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
13:40:15 <ericP> ... we can remove the offending text or just defer to HTTP
... we can remove the offending text or just defer to HTTP ←
13:40:29 <Ruben> +q
Ruben Verborgh: +q ←
13:40:46 <ArnaudLH> ack sandro
Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro ←
13:40:46 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to talk about use cases being a sometimes-necessary expense
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to talk about use cases being a sometimes-necessary expense ←
13:40:47 <oberger> we just say that the server SHOULD "support" DELETE ?
Olivier Berger: we just say that the server SHOULD "support" DELETE ? ←
13:40:48 <krp> is there a perceived problem with 4.5.2, or in how we relate it to http? atompub modifies other resources after a DELETE (e.g. deleting Media Link deletes Media Resource)
Kevin Page: is there a perceived problem with 4.5.2, or in how we relate it to http? atompub modifies other resources after a DELETE (e.g. deleting Media Link deletes Media Resource) ←
13:40:48 <Ruben> q+ to answer Arnaud's question
Ruben Verborgh: q+ to answer Arnaud's question ←
13:40:50 <davidwood> There is no "Web resource" or "RDF resource". There is only a "resource" associated with a URI.
David Wood: There is no "Web resource" or "RDF resource". There is only a "resource" associated with a URI. ←
13:41:03 <ericP> ... we agree to do what HTTP says, but don't know how to state it
... we agree to do what HTTP says, but don't know how to state it ←
13:41:11 <ArnaudLH> ack ashok
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok ←
13:41:58 <ericP> sandro: if someone expects a different behavior than HTTP, than we need to motivate that with a use case (which is an expensive process)
Sandro Hawke: if someone expects a different behavior than HTTP, than we need to motivate that with a use case (which is an expensive process) ←
13:42:14 <JohnArwe> q+ to say as an editor, why not use the experience from other specs, and simply make it clear through some convention in the document when we are (informatively) summarizing implications from other specs like HTTP vs when we are imposing additional normative requirements of our own?
John Arwe: q+ to say as an editor, why not use the experience from other specs, and simply make it clear through some convention in the document when we are (informatively) summarizing implications from other specs like HTTP vs when we are imposing additional normative requirements of our own? ←
13:42:17 <ArnaudLH> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
13:42:29 <timbl> q+
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ ←
13:42:38 <ericP> Ashok_Malhotra: we could split removing "until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI" and the other text
Ashok Malhotra: we could split removing "until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI" and the other text ←
13:42:44 <Ruben> *betehess: true, he deserved that*
Ruben Verborgh: *betehess: true, he deserved that* ←
13:42:53 <MacTed> +1 davidwood `There is no "Web resource" or "RDF resource". There is only a "resource" associated with a URI.`
Ted Thibodeau: +1 davidwood `There is no "Web resource" or "RDF resource". There is only a "resource" associated with a URI.` ←
13:42:56 <ericP> sandro: some of us -1'd simply removing the text
Sandro Hawke: some of us -1'd simply removing the text ←
13:43:06 <ArnaudLH> ack ruben
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ruben ←
13:43:06 <Zakim> Ruben, you wanted to answer Arnaud's question
Zakim IRC Bot: Ruben, you wanted to answer Arnaud's question ←
13:43:11 <cygri> MacTed, literals are RDF resources but not web resources
Richard Cyganiak: MacTed, literals are RDF resources but not web resources ←
13:43:19 <MacTed> nonsense.
Ted Thibodeau: nonsense. ←
13:43:22 <ericP> Ruben: removing is fine for me
Ruben Verborgh: removing is fine for me ←
13:43:28 <ericP> ... the phrasing is fine
... it was just the phrasing that could be confusing ←
13:43:31 <ArnaudLH> ack john
Arnaud Le Hors: ack john ←
13:43:31 <Zakim> JohnArwe, you wanted to say as an editor, why not use the experience from other specs, and simply make it clear through some convention in the document when we are (informatively)
Zakim IRC Bot: JohnArwe, you wanted to say as an editor, why not use the experience from other specs, and simply make it clear through some convention in the document when we are (informatively) ←
13:43:35 <Zakim> ... summarizing implications from other specs like HTTP vs when we are imposing additional normative requirements of our own?
Zakim IRC Bot: ... summarizing implications from other specs like HTTP vs when we are imposing additional normative requirements of our own? ←
13:43:52 <oberger> sandro, out of scope of the current discussion at least
Olivier Berger: sandro, out of scope of the current discussion at least ←
13:44:10 <Ruben> s/the phrasing is fine/it was just the phrasing that could be confusing/
13:44:16 <MacTed> anything nameable and transmissible over the wire may be considered a web resource. literals are nameable and transmissible over the wire.
Ted Thibodeau: anything nameable and transmissible over the wire may be considered a web resource. literals are nameable and transmissible over the wire. ←
13:44:26 <ArnaudLH> q?
Arnaud Le Hors: q? ←
13:44:26 <ericP> JohnArwe: i worked on other specs and the convention for imposing normative requirements in addition to the base specs
John Arwe: i worked on other specs and the convention for imposing normative requirements in addition to the base specs ←
13:44:37 <ArnaudLH> ack timbl
Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl ←
13:45:00 <ericP> timbl: i thought that "until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI" was gone by mow
Tim Berners-Lee: i thought that "until another resource is created or associated with the same Request-URI" was gone by now ←
13:45:36 <ericP> ... if you put something in a collection, the collection gives you the list that includes that new element
... if you put something in a collection, the collection gives you the list that includes that new element ←
13:45:50 <oberger> s/mow/now/
13:46:03 <krp> even if just a hyperlink to the container section
Kevin Page: even if just a hyperlink to the container section ←
13:46:15 <cygri> MacTed, refinement: REST resource != RDF resource
Richard Cyganiak: MacTed, refinement: REST resource != RDF resource ←
13:46:28 <ericP> ... is it worth saying that DELETing a resource removes it from the container?
... is it worth saying that DELETing a resource removes it from the container? ←
13:46:46 <ericP> ... or is that clear to any spec reader?
... or is that clear to any spec reader? ←
13:47:02 <SteveS> As editor I might remove the last words and add something like: "Whether a resource is exposed again at the same URI, is implementation specific, this can happen based on HTTP PUTs that don't have server-assigned URIs"
Steve Speicher: As editor I might remove the last words and add something like: "Whether a resource is exposed again at the same URI, is implementation specific, this can happen based on HTTP PUTs that don't have server-assigned URIs" ←
13:47:06 <ericP> [general agreement that it's the latter]
[general agreement that it's the latter] ←
13:47:53 <davidwood> SteveS, I propose removing the phrase and adding a sentence, "Clients should note that severs may reuse a Request-URI under some circumstances."
David Wood: SteveS, I propose removing the phrase and adding a sentence, "Clients should note that severs may reuse a Request-URI under some circumstances." ←
13:48:21 <ahaller2> +1 davidwood
Armin Haller: +1 davidwood ←
13:48:28 <oberger> request-Uri -> resource URI ?
Olivier Berger: request-Uri -> resource URI ? ←
13:48:40 <SteveBattle> +1 david's wording to replace the grey sentence
Steve Battle: +1 david's wording to replace the grey sentence ←
13:48:53 <Ruben> +1
Ruben Verborgh: +1 ←
13:48:59 <MacTed> cygri - I would like to see your definitions of each of those. I don't think I agree, but I'm not clear enough on what you mean to express my disagreement.
Ted Thibodeau: cygri - I would like to see your definitions of each of those. I don't think I agree, but I'm not clear enough on what you mean to express my disagreement. ←
13:49:08 <oberger> davidwood, request-Uri -> resource URI ?
Olivier Berger: davidwood, request-Uri -> resource URI ? ←
13:49:28 <cygri> MacTed, RDF resource as defined in RDF 1.1 concepts. REST resource as defined in Fielding's thesis.
Richard Cyganiak: MacTed, RDF resource as defined in RDF 1.1 concepts. REST resource as defined in Fielding's thesis. ←
13:49:48 <antonis> can we not mention PUT or POST either at this point ?
Antonis Loizou: can we not mention PUT or POST either at this point ? ←
13:50:10 <Ashok_Malhotra> PROPOSAL: Close Issue-24 with the following" Delete the phrase in 4.5.1 that nsays "until ...Request URI" and adding a sentence, "Clients should note that severs may reuse a Request-URI under some circumstances."
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-24 with the following" Delete the phrase in 4.5.1 that nsays "until ...Request URI" and adding a sentence, "Clients should note that severs may reuse a Request-URI under some circumstances." ←
13:50:22 <antonis> +1
Antonis Loizou: +1 ←
13:50:22 <Ruben> +1
Ruben Verborgh: +1 ←
13:50:24 <ericP> +1
+1 ←
13:50:26 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
13:50:28 <rgarcia> +1
Raúl García Castro: +1 ←
13:50:29 <ahaller2> +1
Armin Haller: +1 ←
13:50:29 <svillata> +1
Serena Villata: +1 ←
13:50:30 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
Bart van Leeuwen: +1 ←
13:50:31 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
13:50:31 <ArnaudLH> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
13:50:33 <betehess> +1
Alexandre Bertails: +1 ←
13:50:34 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
13:50:35 <krp> +1
Kevin Page: +1 ←
13:50:36 <nmihindu> +1
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: +1 ←
13:50:39 <oberger> +1
Olivier Berger: +1 ←
13:50:42 <webr3> -0 (the use of may kind of enourages bad form - sorry)
Nathan Rixham: -0 (the use of may kind of enourages bad form - sorry) ←
13:50:43 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
13:50:43 <SteveBattle> there was a suggestion to change that to 'resource URI'
Steve Battle: there was a suggestion to change that to 'resource URI' ←
13:50:45 <roger> +1
Roger Menday: +1 ←
13:50:50 <cygri> Note that it shouldn't be "request URI" as per oberger
Richard Cyganiak: Note that it shouldn't be "request URI" as per oberger ←
13:51:02 <bblfish> -0 I think it's ok. But it is too vague
Henry Story: -0 I think it's ok. But it is too vague ←
13:51:06 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
13:51:07 <MacTed> cygri - I'd like specific links and/or quotation. those kinds of handwaves don't serve anyone well.
Ted Thibodeau: cygri - I'd like specific links and/or quotation. those kinds of handwaves don't serve anyone well. ←
13:51:24 <oberger> q+ to ask if impact on 5.6.2 :
Olivier Berger: q+ to ask if impact on 5.6.2 : ←
13:51:30 <bblfish> so I think the second sentence should go in non normative text
Henry Story: so I think the second sentence should go in non normative text ←
13:51:36 <MacTed> cygri - you seem to be suggesting that RDF resources and REST resources are disjoint, and I firmly disagree with that.
Ted Thibodeau: cygri - you seem to be suggesting that RDF resources and REST resources are disjoint, and I firmly disagree with that. ←
13:51:53 <cygri> MacTed, I said "not equal"
Richard Cyganiak: MacTed, I said "not equal" ←
13:52:06 <betehess> MacTed: what about hash HTTP URIs then?
Ted Thibodeau: what about hash HTTP URIs then? [ Scribe Assist by Alexandre Bertails ] ←
13:52:22 <MacTed> a URI is a URI is a URI
Ted Thibodeau: a URI is a URI is a URI ←
13:52:36 <MacTed> the handling of hash HTTP URIs is a client-side concern
Ted Thibodeau: the handling of hash HTTP URIs is a client-side concern ←
13:53:17 <ericP> RESOLVED: Close Issue-24 with the following" Delete the phrase in 4.5.1 that nsays "until ...Request URI" and adding a sentence, "Clients should note that severs may reuse a Request-URI under some circumstances."
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-24 with the following" Delete the phrase in 4.5.1 that nsays "until ...Request URI" and adding a sentence, "Clients should note that severs may reuse a Request-URI under some circumstances." ←
13:53:31 <ericP> ack oberger
ack oberger ←
13:53:31 <Zakim> oberger, you wanted to ask if impact on 5.6.2 :
Zakim IRC Bot: oberger, you wanted to ask if impact on 5.6.2 : ←
13:53:52 <ericP> ArnaudLH: imo, there's no impact on 5.6.2
Arnaud Le Hors: imo, there's no impact on 5.6.2 ←
13:54:04 <ArnaudLH> ack oberger
Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger ←
13:54:21 <webr3> suggets issue-6
Nathan Rixham: suggets ISSUE-6 ←
13:54:37 <cygri> ISSUE-6?
13:54:37 <trackbot> ISSUE-6 -- Should LDBP say that any kind of user-defined simple data type is disallowed? -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-6 -- Should LDBP say that any kind of user-defined simple data type is disallowed? -- open ←
13:54:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/6
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/6 ←
13:56:23 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+
Ashok Malhotra: q+ ←
13:56:53 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
13:57:01 <ericP> SteveS: the current text says that user-defined simple datatypes are not allowed
Steve Speicher: the current text says that user-defined simple datatypes are not allowed ←
13:57:11 <betehess> q+ to mention that I'm already using new data types
Alexandre Bertails: q+ to mention that I'm already using new data types ←
13:57:21 <Ruben> Topic: ISSUE-6 -- Should LDBP say that any kind of user-defined simple data type is disallowed?
13:57:26 <ericP> ... this is meant to coallesce on a growing set of (currently XSD) datatypes
... this is meant to coallesce on a growing set of (currently XSD) datatypes ←
13:57:29 <Ruben> *for tpacbot*
Ruben Verborgh: *for tpacbot* ←
13:57:37 <ericP> ... feedback is that it is too restrictive
... feedback is that it is too restrictive ←
13:57:37 <ArnaudLH> ack ashok
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok ←
13:57:45 <ericP> ... proposal is to relax to SHOULD
... proposal is to relax to SHOULD ←
13:58:04 <webr3> spec says "LDPR representations must use only the following standard datatypes ..." set of only 9 types - this adds constraints to turtle and makes loads of rdf unusable with LDP - i personally have a big issue with that
Nathan Rixham: spec says "LDPR representations must use only the following standard datatypes ..." set of only 9 types - this adds constraints to turtle and makes loads of rdf unusable with LDP - i personally have a big issue with that ←
13:58:04 <ericP> Ashok_Malhotra: heard from folks saying "i'm using this special datatype"
Ashok Malhotra: heard from folks saying "i'm using this special datatype" ←
13:58:07 <davidwood> q+ to ask whether the server could simply advertise if it has datatype restrictions.
David Wood: q+ to ask whether the server could simply advertise if it has datatype restrictions. ←
13:58:22 <ericP> ... how are people going to reference a user-defined datatype with a URI?
... how are people going to reference a user-defined datatype with a URI? ←
13:58:47 <timbl> q+
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ ←
13:58:49 <ericP> ... there's a doc by jjc telling you how to reference a user-defined datatype using a URI?
... there's a doc by jjc telling you how to reference a user-defined datatype using a URI? ←
13:59:16 <ArnaudLH> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
13:59:35 <ericP> s/using a URI\?/using a URI/
s/using a URI\?/using a URI/ (warning: replacement failed) ←
13:59:50 <ericP> cygri: custom datatypes aren't often used in RDF
Richard Cyganiak: custom datatypes aren't often used in RDF ←
13:59:56 <JohnArwe> must drop for other calls
John Arwe: must drop for other calls ←
14:00:01 <Zakim> -JohnArwe
Zakim IRC Bot: -JohnArwe ←
14:00:15 <ericP> ... it's not very clear how to find the definition; what should be at the end of the datatype URI?
... it's not very clear how to find the definition; what should be at the end of the datatype URI? ←
14:00:34 <ericP> ... jjc's doc talks about how to restrict factets
... jjc's doc talks about how to restrict factets ←
14:00:51 <timbl> q+ timblPointOfOrder on whether to do 20 because of relative URIs
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ timblPointOfOrder on whether to do 20 because of relative URIs ←
14:01:21 <ericP> ... if you sort on frequency of datatypes, you see XSD types, misspellings of XSD types, custom types
... if you sort on frequency of datatypes, you see XSD types, misspellings of XSD types, custom types ←
14:01:51 <webr3> can somebody point out that the spec says: "LDPR representations MUST use **ONLY** the following standard datatypes." (xsd boolean,date,dateTime,decimal,double,float,integer,string + rdf:XMLLiteral) - that misses loads of very common xsd types, and rdf literal +html literal types etc - this is more of an issue than the non custom datatypes
Nathan Rixham: can somebody point out that the spec says: "LDPR representations MUST use **ONLY** the following standard datatypes." (xsd boolean,date,dateTime,decimal,double,float,integer,string + rdf:XMLLiteral) - that misses loads of very common xsd types, and rdf literal +html literal types etc - this is more of an issue than the non custom datatypes ←
14:01:53 <ahaller2> q+
Armin Haller: q+ ←
14:02:03 <ericP> ... if you use SPARQL doesn't recognize "330"^^xsd:feet as an integer
... if you use SPARQL doesn't recognize "330"^^xsd:feet as an integer ←
14:02:19 <davidwood> +1 to cygri
David Wood: +1 to cygri ←
14:02:21 <timbl> Use interpretaion properties not [ value 2; unit kg] form.
Tim Berners-Lee: Use interpretaion properties not [ value 2; unit kg] form. ←
14:02:30 <ericP> ... i don't think there's a large group who will be impacted by the MUST or SHOULD
... i don't think there's a large group who will be impacted by the MUST or SHOULD ←
14:02:33 <timbl> Use [ is kg of 2 ]
Tim Berners-Lee: Use [ is kg of 2 ] ←
14:02:43 <ericP> q+ to ask how we increase interop
q+ to ask how we increase interop ←
14:02:44 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
14:02:51 <ArnaudLH> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
14:02:51 <Zakim> betehess, you wanted to mention that I'm already using new data types
Zakim IRC Bot: betehess, you wanted to mention that I'm already using new data types ←
14:02:51 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←
14:02:51 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-irc#T14-02-51-2
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-irc#T14-02-51-2 ←
14:03:13 <ericP> betehess: i disagree that people don't use custom datatypes [2 negatives]
Alexandre Bertails: i disagree that people don't use custom datatypes [2 negatives] ←
14:03:18 <ericP> ... i use them a lot
... i use them a lot ←
14:03:27 <ericP> cygri: you're in a tiny minority
Richard Cyganiak: you're in a tiny minority ←
14:03:49 <ericP> betehess: people wnat to be able to say what something means in the domain application
Alexandre Bertails: people wnat to be able to say what something means in the domain application ←
14:04:11 <ericP> ... i have types in e.g. java or scala and i want to restrict the permissible values for a string
... i have types in e.g. java or scala and i want to restrict the permissible values for a string ←
14:04:12 <SteveBattle> I've also used custom datatypes
Steve Battle: I've also used custom datatypes ←
14:04:24 <ericP> ... i'm not concearned about SPARQL in my app
... i'm not concearned about SPARQL in my app ←
14:04:31 <ArnaudLH> ack david
Arnaud Le Hors: ack david ←
14:04:31 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to ask whether the server could simply advertise if it has datatype restrictions.
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to ask whether the server could simply advertise if it has datatype restrictions. ←
14:04:38 <antonis> q+
Antonis Loizou: q+ ←
14:04:42 <ericP> ... i didn't know about this issue 'cause it seemed intrinsic to RDF
... i didn't know about this issue 'cause it seemed intrinsic to RDF ←
14:04:58 <ericP> davidwood: i was surprised when i saw this in the spec
David Wood: i was surprised when i saw this in the spec ←
14:05:00 <MacTed> present+ MacTed
Ted Thibodeau: present+ MacTed ←
14:05:14 <ericP> ... thinking through it, i can see why you'd want to do that in your compliant server
... thinking through it, i can see why you'd want to do that in your compliant server ←
14:05:24 <ericP> ... i don't think i'd want to do it in mine
... i don't think i'd want to do it in mine ←
14:05:55 <ericP> ... if we can agree on this, we can say "if the server restricts datatypes, it SHOULD advertise those datatypes", e.g. by header, container attrs
... if we can agree on this, we can say "if the server restricts datatypes, it SHOULD advertise those datatypes", e.g. by header, container attrs ←
14:05:59 <ArnaudLH> a?
Arnaud Le Hors: a? ←
14:06:05 <ArnaudLH> ack timbl
Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl ←
14:06:07 <webr3> the issue is greater.. xsd hexBinary, long, int, short, unsignedlong etc are all made illegal by the spec
Nathan Rixham: the issue is greater.. xsd hexBinary, long, int, short, unsignedlong etc are all made illegal by the spec ←
14:06:12 <oberger> q+ to ask if this is still needed given that we're no longer discussing Basic Profile (vs Advanced Profiles)
Olivier Berger: q+ to ask if this is still needed given that we're no longer discussing Basic Profile (vs Advanced Profiles) ←
14:06:13 <bblfish> that's interesting because in any case there will be all kinds of types of restrictions
Henry Story: that's interesting because in any case there will be all kinds of types of restrictions ←
14:06:30 <ericP> timbl: i think you want to give a name to a system which uses a constrained set of datatypes
Tim Berners-Lee: i think you want to give a name to a system which uses a constrained set of datatypes ←
14:07:16 <ericP> ... if i'm getting data from some hardware, the value lies in that datatype being transparent
... if i'm getting data from some hardware, the value lies in that datatype being transparent ←
14:07:37 <ericP> ... if you're going to put datatypes in, it's nice to put it in with another arc
... if you're going to put datatypes in, it's nice to put it in with another arc ←
14:07:49 <betehess> then please fix the datatype mess in RDF first
Alexandre Bertails: then please fix the datatype mess in RDF first ←
14:08:02 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
14:08:11 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←
14:08:11 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-irc#T14-08-11
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-ldp-irc#T14-08-11 ←
14:08:22 <davidwood> +1 to timbl
David Wood: +1 to timbl ←
14:08:38 <oberger> q-
Olivier Berger: q- ←
14:08:48 <betehess> my proposal: don't say anything, it's just RDF!
Alexandre Bertails: my proposal: don't say anything, it's just RDF! ←
14:08:51 <ericP> ack timblPointOfOrder
ack timblPointOfOrder ←
14:08:51 <Zakim> timblPointOfOrder, you wanted to comment on whether to do 20 because of relative URIs
Zakim IRC Bot: timblPointOfOrder, you wanted to comment on whether to do 20 because of relative URIs ←
14:08:52 <ArnaudLH> ack timbl
Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl ←
14:08:57 <SteveBattle> OWL2 lets you define your own datatypes - so they're not broken.
Steve Battle: OWL2 lets you define your own datatypes - so they're not broken. ←
14:09:05 <ericP> timbl: i'm excited to talk about relative URLs today
Tim Berners-Lee: i'm excited to talk about relative URLs today ←
14:09:09 <cygri> ISSUE-20?
14:09:09 <trackbot> ISSUE-20 -- Identifying and naming POSTed resources -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-20 -- Identifying and naming POSTed resources -- open ←
14:09:09 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/20
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/20 ←
14:09:12 <MacTed> an existing minority, tiny though it may be, using custom data types makes "MUST only use these data types" absolutely unacceptable to me here.
Ted Thibodeau: an existing minority, tiny though it may be, using custom data types makes "MUST only use these data types" absolutely unacceptable to me here. ←
14:09:12 <MacTed> "SHOULD" could possibly be argued, in support of greater overall interoperability.
Ted Thibodeau: "SHOULD" could possibly be argued, in support of greater overall interoperability. ←
14:09:12 <MacTed> I generally like davidwood's suggested direction
Ted Thibodeau: I generally like davidwood's suggested direction ←
14:09:29 <ArnaudLH> ack ahaller
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ahaller ←
14:09:46 <ArnaudLH> ack eric
Arnaud Le Hors: ack eric ←
14:09:46 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask how we increase interop
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to ask how we increase interop ←
14:10:00 <ericP> ahaller: all ontologies i know solve with units of measure patterns
Armin Haller: all ontologies i know solve with units of measure patterns ←
14:10:05 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
14:10:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see St_Clair_3B, [IPcaller], MacTed (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see St_Clair_3B, [IPcaller], MacTed (muted) ←
14:10:13 <cygri> q?
Richard Cyganiak: q? ←
14:10:57 <ArnaudLH> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
14:11:19 <SteveBattle> Striking it (4.1.9) out completely gets my vote
Steve Battle: Striking it (4.1.9) out completely gets my vote ←
14:11:40 <ericP> ericP: in my domain, we use more custom datatypes than most, and for stuff where the SPARQL computability isn't an issue, but i don't think we'd mind a SHOULD which we violated
Eric Prud'hommeaux: in my domain, we use more custom datatypes than most, and for stuff where the SPARQL computability isn't an issue, but i don't think we'd mind a SHOULD which we violated ←
14:11:48 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
14:12:39 <ericP> bblfish: there's an assymetric pressure to use standard datatypes
Henry Story: there's an assymetric pressure to use standard datatypes ←
14:12:42 <ArnaudLH> ack antonis
Arnaud Le Hors: ack antonis ←
14:12:53 <ericP> ... [hexbinary example]
... [hexbinary example] ←
14:13:08 <bblfish> plust I need hexBinary, which is not on the list
Henry Story: plust I need hexBinary, which is not on the list ←
14:13:33 <ArnaudLH> ack bete
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bete ←
14:13:38 <ericP> antonis: we could say that clients SHOULD NOT use custom datatypes, but if they do, they should be described per davidwood's proposal
Antonis Loizou: we could say that clients SHOULD NOT use custom datatypes, but if they do, they should be described per davidwood's proposal ←
14:14:02 <bblfish> ?
Henry Story: ? ←
14:14:06 <bblfish> q?
Henry Story: q? ←
14:14:07 <ericP> betehess: i feel like this is like in the last conversation where we were restricting HTTP
Alexandre Bertails: i feel like this is like in the last conversation where we were restricting HTTP ←
14:14:09 <bblfish> q+
Henry Story: q+ ←
14:14:21 <ericP> ... why not restrict vocabularies, ...?
... why not restrict vocabularies, ...? ←
14:14:44 <ericP> ... i'm not totally motivated by the current deployment
... i'm not totally motivated by the current deployment ←
14:15:01 <bblfish> my point was the following: there is no need to put restrictions on datatypes, that will come from usage
Henry Story: my point was the following: there is no need to put restrictions on datatypes, that will come from usage ←
14:15:04 <ericP> ... i don't think that application manufacturers will get it right
... i don't think that application manufacturers will get it right ←
14:15:21 <ArnaudLH> ack cygri
Arnaud Le Hors: ack cygri ←
14:15:25 <oberger> q+
Olivier Berger: q+ ←
14:15:30 <webr3> agree w/ bblfish
Nathan Rixham: agree w/ bblfish ←
14:15:32 <BartvanLeeuwen> q+
Bart van Leeuwen: q+ ←
14:15:42 <betehess> I want to state that I was cut when wanted to discuss the "wrong reasons"
Alexandre Bertails: I want to state that I was cut when wanted to discuss the "wrong reasons" ←
14:15:55 <ericP> cygri: i think a good reason for restrictions is that there's value in mapping data from an LDP server into application data structures
Richard Cyganiak: i think a good reason for restrictions is that there's value in mapping data from an LDP server into application data structures ←
14:16:10 <davidwood> antonis' proposal seems to be backward from mine. I suggest that servers that restrict must advertise the restriction. Antonis suggests that servers that do *not* restrict must advertise.
David Wood: antonis' proposal seems to be backward from mine. I suggest that servers that restrict must advertise the restriction. Antonis suggests that servers that do *not* restrict must advertise. ←
14:16:10 <ericP> ... XSD types map naturally to language-native datatypes
... XSD types map naturally to language-native datatypes ←
14:16:17 <ericP> ... others become complex objects
... others become complex objects ←
14:16:50 <ericP> ... not that we must always do what JSON does, but one thing makes JSON easy is that you only get native datatypes
... not that we must always do what JSON does, but one thing makes JSON easy is that you only get native datatypes ←
14:16:53 <Ashok_Malhotra> PROPOSAL1: Rewrite the first sentence in 4.1.9 to "It is recommended that LDPR repsenetations use the follwing datatypes"
Ashok Malhotra: PROPOSAL1: Rewrite the first sentence in 4.1.9 to "It is recommended that LDPR repsenetations use the follwing datatypes" ←
14:16:54 <ArnaudLH> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
14:17:08 <ericP> ... is this as a reason to encourage use of standard types
... is this as a reason to encourage use of standard types ←
14:17:08 <betehess> this statement just forgets the specific needs of domain specific applications
Alexandre Bertails: this statement just forgets the specific needs of domain specific applications ←
14:17:36 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
14:17:51 <ArnaudLH> ack oberger
Arnaud Le Hors: ack oberger ←
14:18:02 <ericP> bblfish: there's no hexbinary in the sanctioned list, which rules out webid
Henry Story: there's no hexbinary in the sanctioned list, which rules out webid ←
14:18:07 <timbl> q+ to suggest that the specification of limited types if you want to keep it, make it an appendix and give it a different name.
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ to suggest that the specification of limited types if you want to keep it, make it an appendix and give it a different name. ←
14:18:20 <SteveBattle> -1 to the proposal - I prefer the original proposal to delete 4.1.9
Steve Battle: -1 to the proposal - I prefer the original proposal to delete 4.1.9 ←
14:18:22 <betehess> my answer: I believe in standards
Alexandre Bertails: my answer: I believe in standards ←
14:18:24 <timbl> q+
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ ←
14:18:37 <ericP> oberger: i understand betehess's concearns, but what's it matter if you're not compliant with this aspect?
Olivier Berger: i understand betehess's concearns, but what's it matter if you're not compliant with this aspect? ←
14:18:38 <antonis> davidwood, agree on the difference between my proposal and yours
Antonis Loizou: davidwood, agree on the difference between my proposal and yours ←
14:18:58 <ArnaudLH> ack bart
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bart ←
14:18:59 <ericP> ... i could object to dc:creator, but it's good for the larger goal
... i could object to dc:creator, but it's good for the larger goal ←
14:19:08 <Ashok_Malhotra> SteveBattle --- that was going to my PROPOSAL 2 ::-)
Ashok Malhotra: SteveBattle --- that was going to my PROPOSAL 2 ::-) ←
14:19:16 <davidwood> PROPOSAL: Change 4.1.9 to say that servers MAY restrict their datatypes.
PROPOSED: Change 4.1.9 to say that servers MAY restrict their datatypes. ←
14:19:23 <ericP> BartvanLeeuwen: i jumped on RDF because of it's flexibility
Bart van Leeuwen: i jumped on RDF because of it's flexibility ←
14:19:23 <davidwood> antonis, thanks
David Wood: antonis, thanks ←
14:19:35 <ericP> ... we see geo datatypes, which get some use
... we see geo datatypes, which get some use ←
14:19:35 <ArnaudLH> ack steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves ←
14:19:46 <SteveBattle> I think 4.1.9 send the wrong message entirely - kill it!
Steve Battle: I think 4.1.9 send the wrong message entirely - kill it! ←
14:19:53 <ericP> ... i don't think i've heard a good motivation
... i don't think i've heard a good motivation ←
14:19:59 <betehess> q+
Alexandre Bertails: q+ ←
14:20:12 <ericP> SteveS: true intent is "don't make up a new datatype where one of these suffices"
Steve Speicher: true intent is "don't make up a new datatype where one of these suffices" ←
14:20:20 <ArnaudLH> ack timbl
Arnaud Le Hors: ack timbl ←
14:20:20 <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to suggest that the specification of limited types if you want to keep it, make it an appendix and give it a different name. and to
Zakim IRC Bot: timbl, you wanted to suggest that the specification of limited types if you want to keep it, make it an appendix and give it a different name. and to ←
14:20:22 <webr3> SteveBattle, +1 to what you said, it's a horrible section that makes a huge portion of wild rdf unusable
Nathan Rixham: SteveBattle, +1 to what you said, it's a horrible section that makes a huge portion of wild rdf unusable ←
14:20:45 <davidwood> Agree that 4.1.9 says "don't fully use RDF". That's not good.
David Wood: Agree that 4.1.9 says "don't fully use RDF". That's not good. ←
14:20:46 <ericP> timbl: the only think i care about is the MUST
Tim Berners-Lee: the only think i care about is the MUST ←
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This revision (#9) generated 2012-11-01 14:35:12 UTC by 'sandro', comments: None