See also: IRC log
Dan: missing from WebPerf agenda: end-user and operator visibility in perf optimization.
Paul: agreed. required info from
users of specs
... loook at audio spec
... every spec really are missing perf metrics for exit
criteria.
... which means that implementations might not be usable by
devs.
... I'd like to get perf criterias as a req to go to rec.
... I'd like to get feedback about this.
aaa: skeptical about this because
of the wide range of devices that implement specs.
... could define profiles.
... much more important is to be able to measure.
Daniel: requires a bigger focus on network.
aaa: not only.
phl: difficult to define this because of the different class of devices.
Paul Bakaus: this should be done based on use cases that can be easily expressed in perf reqs
scribe: some are hard to express, but some are easy.
Henry: seamless audio splicing is an important issue with [?]
Dan: perf doesn't necessarily
mean numbers.
... defining perf profiles within specs can help devs
Daniel: would like to be able to compare native apps perf to web apps.
pbakaus: difficult to do the spec work in the native side.
Daniel: its similar at the
network level.
... so you can get at least network perf.
phl: network measurement ispart of the discussion at webperf, so adding use cases would be good. The group has little experience in network. so please join if you do.
Daniel: paypal native app calls
http apis
... backend is similar to what you have for reg web apps.
... one of the thing webperf should do is look into this.
pbakaus: other suggestions on how
to have perf a criteria for successful specs?
... what bothers me is to see implementors claim support but
don't have good enough perf caracteristics.
slightlyoff: phrase your
questions in form of benchmarks.
... eg robohornet effort
... iplementors want clarity too.
pbakaus: adding benchmarks to
spec criteria seems reasonable.
... related issue:
... problem is not only with slow implementations but also that
some specs can't be used because related specs aren't
implemented.
... eg every dev runs in the same kind of problem on mobile
using gyroscope
... which can't be used because orientation lock is
missing.
... real problem that can't be expressed easily.
... what can be done?
Daniel: specs list deps
... would you seen a need for something beyond that.
pbakaus: in that case, screen orienation doesn't exist yet.
slightlyoff: how that's been done is to pile up everything that's required in the same spec.
Daniel: perf isn't taken seriously.
Henry: can't be right.
... perf is crucial.
slightlyoff: coremob test suite
has perf aspects to it.
... game here is to get vendors interested in your use
cases
... benchmarks
... benchmarks are hard to write
... can cause premature optimization
... pushing back on the idea that people don't care.
... they do.
bbb: we have people doing games. we found that the best solution was to talk with vendors and ask them why a particular problem is slow.
pbakaus: lot of interest in perf,
we just need to know how to make it happen.
... works well when benchmarks are not written by
vendors.
... used as a way to market browsers.
... any other feedback?
ccc: making benchmarks part of an
accepted test suite makes sense.
... better in a test suite for process reasons.
Daniel: within w3c we could
decide on a vendor agnostic methodology to define how to
measure the web.
... this should be pretty straightforward.
slightlyoff: you're vastly underestimating the complexity and difficulty of the problem.
Daniel: maybe but this would still be a useful doc.
ccc: we need to write benchmarks
first
... open-source browsers have benchmarks
... why don't we migrate those back into the W3C?
phl: space of webperf is pretty
vast.
... it helps when people come with use cases and
examples.
... where do we start?
pbakaus: is the webperf the right venue?
phl: no convinced either
way.
... but that could be possible.
pbakaus: i like the benchmark
approach but that works for single specs only
... devs use tech in ways that aren't considered
... eg property change in IE
... some of those tech, when used together can get really
slow.
... not sure how to bring this up to W3C.
... is this a problem? Where should this be brought?
... devs using a combination of tech and discovering it is
slow.
Daniel: examples?
pbakaus: using SVG and canvas is
slow.
... technically it works.
... but its slow.
phl: use benchmarks is the right
approach to raise the issue.
... in the webperf WG, we realized Firefox was creating extra
work when using CSS.
so we talked to Mozilla.
scribe: vendors need to be told about those issues and help prioretize
pbakaus: what is the venue for this?
Henry: in terms of end to end
benchmarking you have friends at the IETF.
... everyone agrees about that a lot of work will need to be
put in benchmarking.
... not the same focus as here, but there's a lot of
overlap.
Dan: I can also take this to the
IETF next week.
... IETF has working groups that are specialized on
benchmarking
Daniel: early days for that group.
Henry: name HTTPBis is getting overloaded.
pbakaus: bring pain points to the
webperf mailing list.
... so far we've been talking about memory perf.
... garbage collection.
and tobie has been talking about scrolling perf.
scribe: we need to hear more from you.
<dan_romascanu> ietf bmwg - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-bmwg/
phl: we published a survey
<ht> So, the httpbis IETF WG has been rechartered to put HTTP/2.0 into scope, see http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/charters for an overview
phl: we have to decide between
now and the end of Nov what our focus is going to be on.
... we are good at implementing stuff.
pbakaus: super grateful for the work of the webperf group.
<sgodard> tobie: Great great job for your first time as scribe ;)
RRSAgent: generate minutes
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