13:53:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:53:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/16-wcag2ict-irc
13:53:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:53:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wcag2ict
13:53:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2428
13:53:55 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
13:53:56 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:53:56 <trackbot> Date: 16 October 2012
13:54:37 <Andi> chair: Andi_Snow-Weaver
13:59:03 <BBailey> BBailey has joined #wcag2ict
13:59:45 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has now started
13:59:53 <Zakim> +Andi_Snow_Weaver
13:59:59 <Kiran> Kiran has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:09 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
14:00:14 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
14:00:18 <Zakim> +Gregg_Vanderheiden
14:00:36 <BBailey> zakim, i am bruce_bailey
14:00:36 <Zakim> ok, BBailey, I now associate you with Bruce_Bailey
14:00:39 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:47 <David> David has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:00 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
14:01:16 <Zakim> + +1.512.255.aaaa
14:01:26 <janina> janina has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:31 <Andi> agenda+ Survey for October 12th Meeting, starting with question #7, Closed Functionality - Text for Introduction
14:01:53 <Zakim> +Judy
14:01:56 <Andi> agenda+ Action Items http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open
14:01:59 <Zakim> +??P20
14:02:04 <alex_> alex_ has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:06 <janina> zakim, ??P20 is Janina
14:02:07 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
14:02:17 <Zakim> + +01628590aabb
14:02:17 <Andi> zakim, [Microsoft] has Alex_Li
14:02:18 <Zakim> +Alex_Li; got it
14:02:30 <korn> korn has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:40 <Andi> zakim, +01628590aabb is Kiran_Kaja
14:02:40 <Zakim> +Kiran_Kaja; got it
14:02:58 <Andi> zakim, +1.512.255.aaaa is Mary_Jo_Mueller
14:02:58 <Zakim> +Mary_Jo_Mueller; got it
14:03:37 <Zakim> +[Oracle]
14:03:38 <korn> Zakim, Oracle has Peter_KOrn
14:03:39 <Zakim> +Peter_KOrn; got it
14:04:58 <Andi> scribe: Mary_Jo_Mueller
14:05:02 <Andi> scribenick: MaryJo
14:05:46 <MaryJo> zakim, next item
14:05:46 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Survey for October 12th Meeting, starting with question #7, Closed Functionality - Text for Introduction" taken up [from Andi]
14:05:49 <Andi> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/OCT112012/results
14:06:32 <Zakim> + +1.410.965.aacc
14:06:49 <korn> Zakim, aacc is Pierce_Crowell
14:06:49 <Zakim> +Pierce_Crowell; got it
14:06:58 <MaryJo> topic: Closed Functionality: Text for Introduction
14:07:01 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/OCT112012/results#xq7
14:07:28 <Pierce> Pierce has joined #wcag2ict
14:09:18 <korn> q+
14:09:26 <Andi> q+
14:09:28 <greggvanderheiden> Q+
14:09:41 <Andi> ack korn
14:10:36 <Andi> ack andi
14:11:15 <MaryJo> For the interpretation of WCAG for closed products: We are making a list of excluded SC that wouldn't apply to closed functionality.
14:11:36 <Pierce> +q
14:12:07 <Andi> ack gregg
14:12:56 <Zakim> -Judy
14:13:17 <Andi> ack pierce
14:13:18 <korn> q+
14:13:31 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:13:37 <Zakim> +Judy
14:13:55 <Kiran> q+
14:14:32 <Andi> ack korn
14:15:16 <MaryJo> Concern that some of the WCAG SC are repetitive of requirements in the 508 ANPRM, that we shouldn't apply WCAG provisions to closed, contained products.
14:15:31 <Andi> q+ judy
14:16:29 <Andi> ack gregg
14:16:31 <BBailey> q+ to say that access board already said in ANPRM that SC apply to closed functionality.
14:18:38 <David> q+
14:20:01 <Andi> ack kiran
14:20:53 <Zakim> -Judy
14:20:54 <Zakim> +Judy
14:20:56 <Pierce> +q
14:21:08 <Andi> ack judy
14:21:15 <MaryJo> M376 says to apply WCAG to the software part of ICT with closed functionality. Some of the SC in WCAG specifically for interoperability with AT, so they've got a table to list those excluded SC.
14:22:15 <Andi> ack bruce
14:22:15 <Zakim> Bruce_Bailey, you wanted to say that access board already said in ANPRM that SC apply to closed functionality.
14:22:24 <BBailey> Guidance from this taskforce is very much appreciated.  Thanks.
14:22:32 <korn> q+
14:22:50 <Andi> ack david
14:23:08 <MaryJo> In the 508 ANPRM, WCAG is being applied to the software in ICT with closed functionality.
14:23:24 <Andi> ack pierce
14:24:49 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:26:11 <Judy> Judy has joined #wcag2ict
14:26:35 <MaryJo> There are some SC in WCAG that prescribe a certain way of solving accessibility issues that are in conflict with methods already being used by closed products.
14:26:48 <MaryJo> For example, the ability to resize text.
14:27:39 <Andi> ack judy
14:28:01 <Andi> ack korn
14:28:44 <Andi> ack gregg
14:30:55 <MaryJo> The list in this introduction section are the excluded SC.
14:31:09 <korn> q+
14:32:58 <David> q+
14:33:26 <Andi> Add "and would be problematic for closed products or closed functionality."
14:34:06 <David> q-
14:34:10 <David> q+
14:34:15 <korn> q-
14:34:15 <Andi> ack korn
14:34:19 <Andi> ack david
14:34:54 <korn> q+
14:35:37 <Andi> ack korn
14:35:53 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept The text for the introduction concerning closed functionality, proposal #7 as written.
14:36:17 <Andi> action: Pierce to draft additional text for closed functionality section to clarify these provisions are excluded from closed products
14:36:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-69 - Draft additional text for closed functionality section to clarify these provisions are excluded from closed products [on Pierce Crowell - due 2012-10-23].
14:37:15 <MaryJo> topic: 2.1.1 Keyboard
14:37:25 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/OCT112012/results#xq8
14:37:48 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept the addition of 2.1.1 to the excluded list.
14:38:56 <MaryJo> topic: 2.1.3 Keyboard (No Exception)
14:39:02 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/OCT112012/results#xq13
14:39:30 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept the addition of 2.1.3 to the excluded list.
14:40:00 <MaryJo> topic: 1.4.2 Audio Control
14:40:07 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/OCT112012/results#xq10
14:40:28 <korn> q+
14:40:33 <MaryJo> This says you can't have audio that plays more than a certain amount of time without the user having the ability to interrupt.
14:41:27 <Pierce> +q
14:42:15 <MaryJo> This causes problems for people with cognitive disabilities as well because something playing can interfere with their ability to read/interact with the visual UI.
14:42:28 <alex_> q+
14:43:17 <MaryJo> 508 and EU M376 already has exceptions for security for something that has to be played (emergency messages, etc), so this SC could be overridden in that case.
14:43:20 <korn> q-
14:43:27 <Andi> ack pierce
14:43:30 <Andi> ack alex_
14:43:33 <Pierce> -q
14:44:11 <MaryJo> topic: Definition of 'navigation mechanism'
14:45:02 <MaryJo> s/Definition of 'navigation mechanism'/2.4.1 Bypass blocks
14:45:32 <MaryJo> s/Definition of 'navigation mechanism'/2.4.1 Bypass blocks/
14:45:43 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/OCT112012/results#xq1
14:46:54 <korn> q+
14:47:02 <Pierce> +q
14:47:21 <MaryJo> New proposal was made in the survey responses.
14:48:18 <korn> q?
14:48:25 <Andi> ack korn
14:49:43 <Andi> ack pierce
14:49:50 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:50:47 <BBailey> zakim, mute me
14:50:47 <Zakim> Bruce_Bailey should now be muted
14:51:10 <Andi> ack gregg
14:52:29 <MaryJo> In documents, headers and footers are repeated.
14:53:44 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
14:53:47 <Andi> need some examples of things that would comply
14:54:02 <MaryJo> Sometimes these are typed on every page rather than in a skippable area that contains the header/footer.  PDFs have the option to remove the header/footer. WCAG has techniques for this SC for PDFs.
14:54:24 <Pierce> +q
14:55:46 <Andi> ack pierce
14:56:12 <korn> q+
14:57:21 <Andi> ack korn
14:57:22 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:57:45 <korn> q-
14:57:47 <Andi> q+
14:57:53 <Andi> ack gregg
14:58:04 <alex_> q+
14:58:09 <Andi> q-
14:59:00 <Andi> q+
14:59:04 <Andi> ack alex
14:59:05 <korn> q+
14:59:08 <korn> This is not germane to this SC.
14:59:46 <MaryJo> Vital information does need to be somewhere in the reading order, such as information that would normally be located in the header or footer (like 'draft').
15:01:05 <MaryJo> We discussed in our last meeting whether or not this SC should apply to information within a single document, or to multiple documents.
15:01:13 <Pierce> +q
15:01:18 <Andi> ack andi
15:01:28 <MaryJo> s/multiple documents/multiple documents in a set/
15:01:28 <korn> q-
15:01:30 <Andi> ack korn
15:02:20 <alex_> q+
15:02:24 <Andi> ack pierce
15:02:50 <Andi> ack alex
15:03:05 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:03:08 <MaryJo> Concern about making this SC apply to only a 'set of documents' but in software applies to a single software application.
15:03:11 <Andi> ack gregg
15:03:44 <alex_> q+
15:07:16 <Andi> ack alex
15:07:48 <korn> q+
15:08:02 <Andi> ack korn
15:08:39 <MaryJo> It looks like this SC isn't quite solved yet.
15:09:46 <MaryJo> topic: Definition of 'navigation mechanism'
15:09:47 <Pierce> +q
15:09:59 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/OCT112012/results#xq3
15:10:07 <korn> For 3.2.3, within my survey comments, I made the proposal: " [Navigational mechanisms] that are repeated <within  software> occur in the same relative order each time they are  repeated, unless a change is initiated by the user."
15:10:32 <Andi> ack pierce
15:12:45 <MaryJo> When this definition goes to the WCAG working group, they can't add the definition, but can add it to the intent.
15:13:35 <korn> q+
15:14:23 <Pierce> +q
15:14:46 <korn> [nav 1] <some text> [nav 2]      <- if this is repeated, it wouldn't need to be consistent because <some text> makes the two navs non-contiguous
15:15:05 <MaryJo> Discussion on new proposal for the definition to capture the comments received on the survey.
15:15:45 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:16:23 <Andi> ack korn
15:18:02 <Andi> ack pierce
15:19:14 <MaryJo> Exclusion of headings is only because browsers don't use headers for navigation. However, headings in software can be a good method of navigation.
15:20:19 <Andi> ack gregg
15:20:30 <David> q+
15:20:36 <MaryJo> The WCAG working group specifically wanted to exclude headings. Concerned proposal will not be accepted if headings aren't excluded for non-web content.
15:20:52 <korn> q+
15:21:51 <Andi> q+
15:25:04 <Andi> ack david
15:25:42 <Andi> ack korn
15:26:20 <MaryJo> Concerns voiced over terms 'focus of actions' and 'contiguous' used in the definition.
15:26:54 <korn> q-
15:27:40 <Pierce> +q
15:28:07 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:28:09 <korn> +1 Andi!
15:28:26 <Andi> ack andi
15:29:15 <MaryJo> The concept of the navigational mechanism 'taking you somewhere' for software is what seems to be hanging us up. We may just want to think about the fact that whenever UI elements are repeated in the UI, that they should appear in the same relative order.
15:29:56 <MaryJo> The problem is that sometimes the relative order is changed on purpose to make navigation by keyboard quicker.
15:31:58 <Andi> q?
15:32:02 <Andi> ack pierce
15:32:13 <Zakim> -Judy
15:32:24 <Judy> Judy has left #wcag2ict
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15:32:31 <Andi> ack gregg
15:33:05 <MaryJo> Need to add a note that this definition is only 'as used in this SC'.
15:34:04 <Zakim> -Kiran_Kaja
15:34:35 <Pierce> I object to the heading note all together
15:35:12 <korn> q+
15:36:17 <Pierce> +q
15:36:53 <Andi> ack korn
15:39:00 <korn> "non-web ICT" => non-web software.
15:40:53 <korn> q+
15:40:58 <Andi> q+
15:41:35 <Andi> ack pierce
15:43:40 <MaryJo> The access board will be able to quote from the WCAG2ICT document, and should not just cite it since our document is not normative.
15:43:42 <Andi> ack korn
15:44:16 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:44:49 <Andi> ack andi
15:45:58 <Andi> ack gregg
15:46:10 <MaryJo> The separate definition of 'navigational mechanism' doesn't seem to be working for software. It may work better to make a suggestion on how we would apply the principle of the SC to software.
15:48:40 <MaryJo> Another term that causes concern in the definition is 'jumps you to another location'.  Developers would have a difficult time figuring out what is or is not a navigational mechanism.
15:49:20 <MaryJo> s/jumps you to/jumps the user to/
15:50:26 <MaryJo> There is also concern about whether this definition works for documents as well. Should perhaps address 'non-embedded content' directly in the SC rather than in the definition for 'navigational mechanism'.
15:50:53 <Andi> action: Andi to work with Peter on a proposal for 3.2.3 that avoids having to define "navigational mechanisms" for software.
15:50:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-70 - Work with Peter on a proposal for 3.2.3 that avoids having to define "navigational mechanisms" for software. [on Andi Snow-Weaver - due 2012-10-23].
15:57:04 <Andi> non-embedded content: Content that is not embedded in software and that does not include its own user agent
15:58:54 <MaryJo> Assertion that 'navigation mechanisms' is really a Web concept, so doesn't really need to be defined for softare or documentation and that we look at 3.2.3 without the use of that term.
15:59:56 <korn> Proposal 10 at https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/2-operable/24-provide-ways-to-help-users-navigate-find-content-and-determine-where-they-are/245-multiple-ways
16:00:09 <MaryJo> The 2.4.5 consensus text for documents in proposal 10 could a part of the proposal for 3.2.3 for documents.
16:00:19 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:00:26 <Zakim> -Mary_Jo_Mueller
16:00:27 <Zakim> -Janina
16:00:27 <Zakim> -Pierce_Crowell
16:00:28 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow_Weaver
16:00:28 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden
16:00:30 <janina> janina has left #wcag2ict
16:00:32 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
16:00:42 <Andi> action: Andi to take consensus language for 2.4.5 (documents only) and try to apply it to a proposal for 3.2.3
16:00:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-71 - Take consensus language for 2.4.5 (documents only) and try to apply it to a proposal for 3.2.3 [on Andi Snow-Weaver - due 2012-10-23].
16:02:20 <MaryJo> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/16-wcag2ict-minutes.html MaryJo
16:03:22 <Zakim> -[Oracle]
16:03:23 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has ended
16:03:23 <Zakim> Attendees were Andi_Snow_Weaver, Bruce_Bailey, David_MacDonald, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Judy, Janina, Alex_Li, Kiran_Kaja, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Peter_KOrn, +1.410.965.aacc, Pierce_Crowell
18:19:11 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has left #wcag2ict
19:21:49 <MaryJo> zakim, bye
19:21:49 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict