15:03:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
15:03:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/03-forms-irc
15:03:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:03:17 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
15:03:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
15:03:19 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see IA_XForms()11:00AM already started
15:03:20 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
15:03:20 <trackbot> Date: 03 October 2012
15:03:26 <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
15:03:26 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
15:03:47 <Zakim> +??P15
15:04:01 <nvdbleek> zakim, I am ??P15
15:04:01 <Zakim> +nvdbleek; got it
15:04:17 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
15:05:08 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:05:48 <alain> Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
15:05:48 <Zakim> ok, alain, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
15:12:54 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
15:13:01 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
15:13:17 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
15:16:06 <Steven_> Steven_ has joined #forms
15:16:56 <nvdbleek> scribe: nvdbleek
15:17:03 <Steven_> Chair: Steven
15:17:19 <Steven_> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Oct/0002.html
15:17:32 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
15:25:25 <nvdbleek> TOPIC: load/@show='embed'
15:26:15 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: Without a scoping mechanism we aren't going to solve the current limitations 
15:26:47 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: A number of vendors have worked around the issues 
15:27:30 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: We have a design time feature for building components
15:28:05 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: it is easier to solve the id scoping issues at design time
15:28:41 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: Maybe we could just note in the spec the limitations
15:29:35 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: We are using the XBL approach allot lately, but other implementers found that approach to complicated
15:30:19 <nvdbleek> Steven_: An imperfect solution isn't very nice
15:31:46 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: I find the current proposal to imperfect for being the standardised way  to do sub-forms
15:32:58 <nvdbleek> Steven_: We always attempted to do the perfect thing
15:35:51 <nvdbleek> Steven_: We could specify that IDs should be consistently renamed
15:37:09 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: One of the use cases was to send events from outside the the subform inside the subform
15:37:38 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: It could be expensive to do the rewriting at run-time
15:37:43 <John_Boyer> Although some have often struggled with it, my point is that I never struggle with it anymore because the design tool handles subforms, ID rewriting and rewriting of IDREFs to match
15:39:13 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: I would be happy if a run-time version of this is added to the spec, but it is going to take a long time to specify, test and validate
15:41:05 <nvdbleek> Steven_: So does this mean that the user should make sure that the ID's are unique
15:41:37 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
15:41:52 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: We can support the same ID's at different repeat iteration, but we have to specify this.
15:42:28 <Zakim> + +1.650.919.aaaa
15:42:37 <ebruchez> zakim, +1.650.919.aaaa is ebruchez
15:42:37 <Zakim> +ebruchez; got it
15:42:53 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: The user can't know if there are ID conflicts, because he is getting the contents from somewhere else
15:43:33 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: In my opinion it is either don't touch the feature or otherwise do it right
15:45:42 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: last time we had some exchanges on the mailing, Joern had a strong opinion to keep the solution simple. And don't make it to complicated.
15:46:34 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: If you make your id's namespaced by prepending something unique for every form would 'solve' the problem
15:46:42 <ebruchez> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2012Jun/0019.html
15:46:57 <ebruchez> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2012Jun/0018.html
15:47:22 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: I wanted try to set some things that could be done, without specifying to much
15:48:58 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: An implementation could automatically prefix the ID's, another implementation could use a shadow tree. But then you have to specify if and how you could send events inside the subform from outside the subform
15:50:14 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: I was also leaning to not doing something half backed
15:50:31 <Steven_> s/backed/baked/
15:52:40 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: The baked solution is that the implementation should solve the duplicate IDs 
15:53:50 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: When you send an event from outside the subform to the inside we should specify what the id for the target attribute should be 
15:54:17 <ebruchez> - events from the embedded form should not flow over to the embedding form
15:54:18 <ebruchez> - the embedding form should not be able to address elements of the
15:54:19 <ebruchez> embedded form with simple id references
15:54:21 <ebruchez> - the embedded form should not be able to address elements of the
15:54:22 <ebruchez> embedding form with simple id references
15:54:23 <ebruchez> - the embedding form must be able to dispatch an event to the embedded form
15:54:24 <ebruchez> - the embedded form must be able to dispatch an event to the embedding form
15:54:50 <ebruchez> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2012Jun/0015.html
15:54:57 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: We could decide that it isn't possible to not send events across subform boundaries 
15:56:30 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: What if you have to separate loaded subforms with the same ID inside, how do you know to which subform to target when you send to that ID from the main form? 
15:56:36 <John_Boyer> Given a form with two subforms, how can a run-time decide whether X is a reference to the thing with id="X" in subform A or subform B
15:57:30 <nvdbleek> zakm, mute me 
15:57:45 <Steven_> zakim, mute Nick
15:57:45 <Zakim> sorry, Steven_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Nick
15:58:04 <Steven_> zakim, mute nvd
15:58:04 <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted
15:58:24 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: Maybe you shouldn't be able to send events directly inside a subform, but only to the subform, and the controls in the subform should listen to the subform
15:58:51 <John_Boyer> The IDREF X could become A_X or B_X, for example.
16:00:06 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: this is typically what you do if you are using shadow-trees
16:00:44 <nvdbleek> zakim, unmute me 
16:00:44 <Zakim> nvdbleek should no longer be muted
16:00:53 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
16:01:12 <Zakim> -??P19
16:01:13 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:01:16 <Zakim> -ebruchez
16:01:16 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: we could also allow prefixing the IDs, but then every implementation should support this
16:01:29 <Zakim> -nvdbleek
16:01:31 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
16:01:33 <Zakim> Attendees were nvdbleek, [IPcaller], John_Boyer, ebruchez
16:01:54 <Steven_> present+Alain
16:01:59 <Steven_> present+Steven
16:02:09 <Steven_> zakim, make minutes
16:02:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', Steven_
16:02:26 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/03-forms-minutes.html Steven_
16:04:52 <Steven_> Regrets: Philip
16:04:54 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/03-forms-minutes.html Steven_
16:05:18 <nvdbleek1> nvdbleek1 has joined #forms
16:05:46 <Steven_> nick?
16:06:17 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
16:07:36 <nvdbleek1> yes