13:51:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:51:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/25-wcag2ict-irc
13:51:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:51:52 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wcag2ict
13:51:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2428
13:51:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
13:51:55 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:51:55 <trackbot> Date: 25 September 2012
13:54:42 <Andi> chair: Andi_Snow-Weaver
13:55:10 <Andi> regrets: Loïc_Martínez_Normand 
13:56:26 <Andi> agenda+ Re-survey on definition of "content" https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/SEP252012/results
13:56:50 <Andi> agenda+ Public Comments Processing https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/WD-wcag2ict-20120727/
13:57:11 <Andi> agenda+ Action Items http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open
13:57:23 <Andi> agenda+ Confirm next meeting time; action items;
13:58:29 <Andi> regrets+ Pierce_Crowell
13:58:35 <MaryJo> MaryJo has joined #wcag2ict
13:58:40 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has now started
13:58:47 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
13:59:11 <BBailey> BBailey has joined #wcag2ict
13:59:41 <Mike> Mike has joined #wcag2ict
13:59:52 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
13:59:53 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has ended
13:59:53 <Zakim> Attendees were Bruce_Bailey
13:59:55 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has now started
13:59:58 <Zakim> +??P7
14:00:03 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
14:00:04 <Zakim> +Andi_Snow_Weaver
14:00:04 <Kiran> Kiran has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:11 <Zakim> +Mary_Jo_Mueller
14:00:19 <Andi> zakim, ??P7 is Mike_Pluke
14:00:19 <Zakim> +Mike_Pluke; got it
14:00:19 <David> David has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:38 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
14:00:41 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:43 <Andi> scribe: Mary_Jo_Mueller
14:00:49 <Andi> scribenick: MaryJo
14:01:02 <Zakim> +Gregg
14:01:22 <BBailey> zakim, BBailey is Bruce_Bailey
14:01:23 <Zakim> sorry, BBailey, I do not recognize a party named 'BBailey'
14:01:30 <Zakim> +Kiran_Kaja
14:01:35 <BBailey> zakim, Bruce_Bailey is BBailey
14:01:35 <Zakim> +BBailey; got it
14:01:55 <korn> korn has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:55 <Andi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:01:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see David_MacDonald, Mike_Pluke, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Mary_Jo_Mueller, BBailey, Gregg, Kiran_Kaja
14:02:00 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
14:02:15 <Andi> zakim, [Microsoft] has Alex_Li
14:02:15 <Zakim> +Alex_Li; got it
14:02:23 <Zakim> +[Oracle]
14:02:29 <korn> Zakim, Oracle has Peter_Korn
14:02:29 <Zakim> +Peter_Korn; got it
14:02:55 <Zakim> +Judy
14:03:05 <MaryJo> zakim, next item
14:03:05 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Re-survey on definition of "content" https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/SEP252012/results" taken up [from Andi]
14:03:08 <alex_> alex_ has joined #wcag2ict
14:03:20 <Judy> zakim, who's making noise?
14:03:30 <Zakim> Judy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Mike_Pluke (1%), Gregg (20%), Kiran_Kaja (15%), [Oracle] (25%), Judy (55%)
14:04:50 <Mike> q+
14:04:56 <korn> +1 to keeping it as is
14:05:02 <Andi> ack mike
14:05:05 <korn> q+
14:05:34 <BBailey> q+
14:05:38 <MaryJo> We introduced the term non-embedded content because media such as movies and sound files are also non-embedded content.
14:05:40 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:06:04 <Andi> ack korn
14:06:25 <MaryJo> The update to the definition of content were to ensure hardware is excluded for the definition of content.
14:06:27 <Andi> ack bbailey
14:07:26 <Andi> ack gregg
14:07:56 <MaryJo> We do make clear that documents are an example of non-imbedded content.
14:08:44 <Andi> q+
14:10:21 <BBailey> q+ to point out that we got into this spot by saying “software and documents”
14:10:41 <MaryJo> Some documents have no interaction, some have simple links and interaction, while others contain more complex interactive content (more software-like).
14:11:03 <BBailey> q+ this has now morphed to “software and non-embedded content”
14:11:28 <BBailey> q+ to add this has now morphed to “software and non-embedded content”
14:11:46 <MaryJo> We may need to have some application notes on the requirements to identify more simplified requirements for simple documents.
14:12:09 <BBailey> q+ to conclude if we go back to just “content” problem we created may be resolved.
14:12:26 <korn> q?
14:14:18 <MaryJo> Comment on Note 2: This note is not very clear.
14:14:59 <Mike> q+
14:15:17 <korn> q+
14:18:46 <Andi> ack andi
14:18:50 <MaryJo> Proposal made to remove the note. 
14:19:05 <korn> q-
14:19:27 <Andi> ack bbailey
14:19:27 <Zakim> BBailey, you wanted to point out that we got into this spot by saying “software and documents” and to add this has now morphed to “software and non-embedded content” and to
14:19:27 <Zakim> ... conclude if we go back to just “content” problem we created may be resolved.
14:19:36 <Andi> ack mike
14:23:31 <greggvanderheiden> Note: Non-embedded content may be web or non-web content. Electronic documents and a movie file (or set of movie related files including captions file etc if they are a package) are examples of non-embedded content.
14:24:23 <MaryJo> propose to change 'movie file or files if they are a package' to be more clear since 'files' also are movie files.
14:25:21 <MaryJo> Proposal to update the sentence that has 'non-embedded content' in there twice to make it clearer.
14:32:31 <Mike> q+
14:32:51 <Mike> q-
14:36:22 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept proposal #4 for the definition of content.
14:38:47 <MaryJo> zakim, next item
14:38:47 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Public Comments Processing https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/WD-wcag2ict-20120727/" taken up [from Andi]
14:39:28 <MaryJo> Andi updated the instructions for handling comments for how to show proposed updates to the document.
14:39:44 <Andi> https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/review-process/instructions-for-proposing-and-answer-to-an-issue
14:44:57 <Judy> q+
14:45:03 <MaryJo> In the short name of the comment we can group the similar comments by adding [<topic>].
14:45:14 <Andi> ack judy
14:45:36 <MaryJo> When we survey the proposed updates to the comments, be sure that the changes are marked with @@.
14:47:17 <MaryJo> The WCAG working group must approve all of the proposed changes, so we need to make sure our proposals are in good shape for that approval.
14:47:26 <Judy> q+
14:49:35 <MaryJo> EU M376: Supposed to be formally approved the week of 27 October. The standard probably won't directly reference the WCAG2ICT, but the technical report will.
14:49:42 <Judy> q+
14:50:00 <Andi> ack judy
14:51:06 <MaryJo> The most important thing is for us to stabilize is the terminology.
14:51:23 <MaryJo> We need to publish before the EU M376 publish date.
14:51:27 <Judy> q+
14:52:53 <MaryJo> Mike should provide a list of the most important terminology that the WCAG2ICT needs to make stable so these are put through the WCAG working group for approval first.
14:53:47 <MaryJo> Important are: The definitions of the SC, some of the glossary terms, and potentially the last of our unconcensed SC.
14:54:19 <Judy> q+ to say that's what I was trying to avoid...
14:55:15 <MaryJo> Next year the M376 goes through a long approval process, so WCAG2ICT will probably be published before the entire process is done.
14:55:24 <Andi> ack judy
14:55:24 <Zakim> Judy, you wanted to say that's what I was trying to avoid...
14:56:22 <MaryJo> We are trying to avoid triggering any changes in M376, but there is too much for us to complete to completely avoid changes.
14:57:02 <MaryJo> One important part is closed functionality which the WCAG2ICT has not yet addressed.
14:57:42 <MaryJo> The other area of concern is what we mean by conformance.
14:58:41 <MaryJo> Priorities: Finish remaining SC, glossary of terms, addressing closed products, and what does conformance mean outside of Web.
14:59:47 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:59:58 <MaryJo> The M376 has received many comments on which SC are/are not applicable to closed products, so this may help us.
15:00:12 <Andi> ack gregg
15:00:15 <korn> q+
15:01:27 <Mike> q+
15:01:32 <Andi> https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/cross-cutting-issues-and-notes/closed-products-and-scs-using-programmatically-determinable
15:01:35 <MaryJo> A lot of WCAG applies to closed products, but any SC that are in support of AT and programmatically determined information are the ones that probably won't apply.
15:01:37 <korn> q-
15:02:36 <Andi> q+
15:02:39 <korn> 1.4.4 thankfully mentions AT in the negative, so that one would still apply to closed.
15:03:06 <korn> Same with 1.4.8
15:03:11 <korn> q+
15:03:30 <Andi> ack mike
15:03:40 <Andi> q-
15:03:54 <MaryJo> We can add a paragraph in the introduction to address closed products in general.
15:03:54 <Andi> ack korn
15:06:07 <Mike> +1
15:06:20 <MaryJo> We'll have to figure out what to say for the individual SC that don't apply and propose a statement to add to them. 
15:06:25 <BBailey> q+
15:06:51 <Andi> ack bbailey
15:07:27 <korn> q+
15:07:50 <MaryJo> In our charter we are not supposed to say that WCAG doesn't apply, however closed products do something equivalent on their own so we don't want to say that they fail the SC.  
15:07:59 <Andi> ack korn
15:08:01 <MaryJo> We can't use the 'automatically meets' language either.
15:08:34 <Mike> q+
15:08:37 <MaryJo> We could say by fact: Closed products don't have AT, so by definition this SC doesn't fit.
15:08:55 <Andi> ack mike
15:10:12 <MaryJo> We'll need a proposal and can start with some language that was originally proposed to the U.S. Access Board.
15:10:21 <Andi> action: Andi to draft intro paragraph for closed products and text for each SC that uses programmatically determined
15:10:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - Draft intro paragraph for closed products and text for each SC that uses programmatically determined [on Andi Snow-Weaver - due 2012-10-02].
15:11:29 <Andi> action Gregg to start outline of intro text describing content terms - why we don't use simple terms like "electronic documents", etc.
15:11:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-64 - Start outline of intro text describing content terms - why we don't use simple terms like "electronic documents", etc. [on Gregg Vanderheiden - due 2012-10-02].
15:12:51 <Andi> action: Mike to gather incoming comments to M376 team wrt closed functionality in the WCAG2ICT domain
15:12:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-65 - Gather incoming comments to M376 team wrt closed functionality in the WCAG2ICT domain [on Mike Pluke - due 2012-10-02].
15:13:57 <Zakim> -Kiran_Kaja
15:14:05 <MaryJo> zakim, next item
15:14:05 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Action Items http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open" taken up [from Andi]
15:14:40 <Andi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/61
15:14:51 <Andi> close action-61
15:14:51 <trackbot> ACTION-61 Propose notes for both 'user agent' and 'content' to clarify software usage; work with Gregg, Loic, and Mike closed
15:15:13 <Andi> close action-60
15:15:14 <trackbot> ACTION-60 Create web page to show where 'user agent' is used for analysis of how well it works closed
15:15:56 <Andi> close action-59
15:15:56 <trackbot> ACTION-59 Find some real-world examples of sets of documents for group to look at and revisit closed
15:18:30 <Andi> Alex's proposed note is here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2ict-tf/2012Sep/0044.html
15:19:54 <MaryJo> The note that was proposed for visually customized cannot be added to the glossary because that is part of the WCAG normative content.
15:20:41 <MaryJo> This term is only used in 1.4.5, but it wouldn't make sense to add this as a note to the SC.
15:21:22 <MaryJo> If this needs to be pursued further, this could be opened as an issue on WCAG.
15:21:26 <Andi> close action-58
15:21:26 <trackbot> ACTION-58 Craft note for WCAG 2.0 to describe this term only applies to SC 1.4.5 closed
15:24:14 <Andi> close action-53
15:24:14 <trackbot> ACTION-53 Modify introductory information discussing what content means in the introduction - 'where the word "content" or "web content" appear, it should be interpreted as [text we agreed to at the August 17th meeting]' closed
15:26:34 <korn> q+
15:27:56 <MaryJo> On action 50, will try to complete this week along with including updates to the terms.
15:28:23 <korn> q-
15:28:44 <Andi> close action-48
15:28:44 <trackbot> ACTION-48 Make a proposal for a note to be added to 3.1.1 guidance to clarify the meaning of the last phrase "in that locale/language" closed
15:29:06 <Andi> close action-46
15:29:06 <trackbot> ACTION-46 Discuss issue of identifying the human language of the input with M376 team and come back with a proposal if necessary closed
15:30:35 <Zakim> -Gregg
15:30:54 <greggvanderheiden> dropped off-- can't get back on
15:31:24 <greggvanderheiden> I think there is a 90 min timer on my phone…..
15:32:20 <MaryJo> For action 43, Christophe still has concerns. He wants to separate out when an application magnifies its own non-embedded content vs. its embedded content and how it responds to platform settings.
15:32:23 <Judy> q+
15:32:36 <MaryJo> He thinks there needs to be language for the different situations.
15:32:54 <Andi> ack judy
15:32:58 <greggvanderheiden> I am back piggy backed on judy 
15:33:17 <Andi> s/I am back piggy backed on judy//
15:33:27 <Andi> s/dropped off-- can't get back on//
15:33:37 <Andi> s/I think there is a 90 min timer on my phone//
15:35:14 <MaryJo> The WCAG working group already approved language for notes on this.
15:36:12 <MaryJo> This was a survey comment on 1.4.4.
15:38:33 <Andi> close action-43
15:38:34 <trackbot> ACTION-43 Revisit Christophe's comments on 1.4.4 Resize Text from the WCAG 19 July survey closed
15:39:01 <korn> Bye
15:39:01 <Zakim> -[Oracle]
15:39:24 <MaryJo> s/was a survey comment on 1.4.4/was a WCAG 2.0 working group survey comment on 1.4.4/
15:39:34 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
15:39:36 <Zakim> -BBailey
15:39:37 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow_Weaver
15:39:38 <Zakim> -Mary_Jo_Mueller
15:39:38 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
15:39:47 <Zakim> -Mike_Pluke
15:39:52 <Zakim> -Judy
15:39:53 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has ended
15:39:53 <Zakim> Attendees were David_MacDonald, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Mike_Pluke, Gregg, Kiran_Kaja, BBailey, Alex_Li, Peter_Korn, Judy
15:40:02 <Mike> Mike has left #wcag2ict
15:40:55 <MaryJo> rrsagent, make minutes.
15:40:55 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes.', MaryJo.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:41:31 <MaryJo> s/rrsagent, make minutes.//
15:41:38 <MaryJo> rrsagent, make minutes
15:41:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/25-wcag2ict-minutes.html MaryJo
16:19:03 <MaryJo> s/.....//
16:19:56 <MaryJo> s/Bye//
16:20:12 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
16:31:03 <MaryJo> rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/25-wcag2ict-minutes.html MaryJo
16:49:38 <MaryJo> zakim, bye
16:49:38 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict