13:58:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:58:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/21-wcag2ict-irc
13:58:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:58:22 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wcag2ict
13:58:24 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2428
13:58:24 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:58:25 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:58:25 <trackbot> Date: 21 September 2012
13:58:37 <Andi> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:58:37 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has not yet started, Andi
13:58:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Andi, Judy, MaryJo, greggvanderheiden, MichaelC, trackbot
13:58:56 <Andi> chair: Andi_Snow-Weaver
13:59:05 <Kiran> Kiran has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:25 <alex_> alex_ has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:43 <mpluke> mpluke has joined #wcag2ict
14:03:18 <Judy> Zakim, this is WAI_(WCAG2ICT)
14:03:18 <Zakim> ok, Judy; that matches WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM
14:03:24 <Judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:03:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregg_Vanderheiden, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Kiran_Kaja, Mary_Jo_Mueller, [Microsoft], peter, ??P10
14:03:36 <Zakim> +BBailey
14:04:06 <Andi> zakim, [Microsoft] has Alex_Li
14:04:06 <Zakim> +Alex_Li; got it
14:04:17 <Andi> zakim, ??P10 is Mike_Pluke
14:04:18 <Zakim> +Mike_Pluke; got it
14:04:35 <BBailey> BBailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:58 <MaryJo> scribe: MaryJo
14:05:03 <Andi> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/SEP182012/results
14:05:14 <BBailey> zakim, this is Bruce_Bailey
14:05:14 <Zakim> sorry, BBailey, I do not see a conference named 'Bruce_Bailey' in progress or scheduled at this time
14:05:23 <MaryJo> topic: Survey for 21 September
14:05:30 <BBailey> zakim, bbailey is Bruce_Bailey
14:05:30 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey; got it
14:05:57 <MaryJo> The term 'stand-alone' seems to imply there is no need for a user agent.
14:06:46 <Andi> zakim, who is making noise
14:06:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is making noise', Andi
14:06:55 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:06:58 <Andi> zakim, who is noisy?
14:07:03 <mpluke> q+
14:07:11 <Zakim> Andi, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Gregg_Vanderheiden (52%), Kiran_Kaja (17%), peter (3%)
14:07:16 <BBailey> +1 agree with concept
14:08:08 <BBailey> zakim, who is on the phone
14:08:08 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', BBailey
14:08:28 <BBailey> zakim, who is here
14:08:28 <Zakim> BBailey, you need to end that query with '?'
14:08:37 <Judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:08:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregg_Vanderheiden, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Kiran_Kaja, Mary_Jo_Mueller, [Microsoft], peter, Mike_Pluke, Bruce_Bailey
14:08:40 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Alex_Li
14:09:02 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
14:10:15 <David> David has joined #wcag2ict
14:12:09 <Zakim> +Judy
14:12:13 <Andi> Content can also be embedded in software.  Some examples of embedded content include [user interaction control,] the text displayed in a menu bar of a graphical UI application, images that appear in a toolbar, prompts spoken in an auditory UI, and other text, graphics or material that is not loaded from outside the software.  In these cases, the content doesn’t “stand-alone”, but is 
14:12:13 <Andi> “embedded” within the software user interface.
14:14:36 <mpluke> q+
14:15:07 <Andi> ack gregg
14:15:45 <alex_> q+
14:15:47 <Andi> ack andi
14:15:53 <Andi> q+
14:15:56 <Andi> q+ peter
14:16:01 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:17:22 <MaryJo> Need to be careful of substitutions of 'stand-alone content' vs. 'embedded content' and how we name these terms.
14:17:23 <Andi> ack alex
14:17:31 <Andi> ack mpluke
14:18:35 <mpluke> q+
14:19:12 <Andi> ack andi
14:19:28 <MaryJo> Web content is stand-alone content and user agents retrieve 'stand-alone content'.
14:19:54 <Andi> ack peter
14:20:53 <Andi> q+
14:21:08 <BBailey> q+ to say that “content” is often distinguished by either being in the form of “embedded content” or as “electronic documents”.
14:21:25 <Andi> ack gregg
14:21:37 <David> q+
14:21:57 <BBailey> q+ to say that “web content” is “electronic documents” rendered by a web browser.
14:22:16 <Andi> q+ peter
14:22:23 <MaryJo> proposal made to change 'stand-alone content' to 'non-embedded content'
14:23:02 <David> q-
14:23:07 <David> q+
14:23:09 <Andi> ack mpluke
14:23:25 <Andi> zakim, who is noisy?
14:23:36 <Zakim> Andi, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: peter (35%), Mike_Pluke (87%), Bruce_Bailey (5%)
14:23:45 <Andi> zakim, mute peter
14:23:45 <Zakim> peter should now be muted
14:24:10 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:24:55 <Andi> q-
14:25:12 <Andi> ack bbailey
14:25:12 <Zakim> BBailey, you wanted to say that “content” is often distinguished by either being in the form of “embedded content” or as “electronic documents”. and to say that “web
14:25:16 <Zakim> ... content” is “electronic documents” rendered by a web browser.
14:25:36 <Andi> ack peter
14:25:52 <Andi> ack david
14:26:24 <greggvanderheiden> REFRESH your page  https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/definitions-from-glossary/d---content-web-content
14:27:35 <korn> korn has joined #wcag2ict
14:27:42 <korn> q+
14:27:55 <Andi> ack gregg
14:30:12 <MaryJo> We want to make sure that the terms used for 'embedded content' vs. 'stand-alone content' or 'non-embedded content' are mutually exclusive.
14:30:24 <janina> janina has joined #wcag2ict
14:30:27 <BBailey> q+ to ask about example for content that is *not* ”embedded” and *not* an “electronic document”?
14:30:41 <Zakim> +??P13
14:30:54 <janina> zakim, ??P13 is Janina_Sajka
14:30:54 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
14:32:26 <mpluke> q+
14:32:30 <Andi> ack korn
14:32:44 <korn> q-
14:32:48 <Andi> ack bbailey
14:32:48 <Zakim> BBailey, you wanted to ask about example for content that is *not* ”embedded” and *not* an “electronic document”?
14:33:11 <MaryJo> Non-embedded content is a superset of web content, which includes electronic documents.
14:33:53 <MaryJo> An example of non-embedded content that is not an electronic document is a movie.
14:33:55 <Andi> ack mpluke
14:34:03 <alex_> q+
14:34:48 <BBailey> +1 to idea that non-embedded content is a superset of web content
14:35:31 <korn> Bruce: an earlier attempt at a term was "separable content" (instead of "stand alone")
14:35:46 <BBailey> +1 to agree that calling a .mov file an ”electronic document” is also non-intuitive.
14:35:54 <Zakim> -Judy
14:36:19 <Andi> ack alex
14:37:16 <Zakim> +[Oracle]
14:37:17 <Zakim> -peter
14:37:20 <Andi> refresh https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/definitions-from-glossary/d---content-web-content
14:37:30 <korn> Zakim, Oracle has Peter_Korn
14:37:30 <Zakim> +Peter_Korn; got it
14:40:58 <MaryJo> User agent definition Note 1 discussion: 'Retrieval is always retrieving' doesn't read well.
14:41:08 <Andi> Note: User agents always retrieve content from outside the software, including loading content from local storage.
14:41:37 <Andi> Note: User agents always retrieve non-embedded content from outside the software, including loading content from local storage.
14:43:45 <mpluke> q+
14:44:06 <korn> q+
14:44:27 <MaryJo> q+
14:45:12 <Andi> q+
14:45:26 <greggvanderheiden> +1
14:45:29 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:45:39 <David> q+
14:46:04 <korn> I'm not sure we want to define "user agent" in that way.  We don't have specific requirements on "user agents", we have it on "software".  So I think we need to address the "full fidelity vs. preview" problem in the SCs themselves, or in an introductory paragraph.
14:46:44 <MaryJo> Discussion on preview graphics and thumbnails: These meet definition of being retrieved outside of the software, but are not intended to to have to meet the full-fidelity accessibility.
14:47:10 <MaryJo> We could add a note to make an exception for this case.
14:48:44 <MaryJo> Embedded content is the exception, not the rule.  Suggestion made to generally refer to 'content' with the exception being stated instead of always saying 'non-embedded' content.
14:49:59 <MaryJo> Most places in the SC refer to both types. There are a few exceptions, so we can call them out.
14:50:06 <Andi> Note 3: Software that provides only a "preview" of content, such as the first page of a document, first frame of a movie, or a thumbnail of an image in a file viewer is not a user agent.
14:51:37 <korn> q-
14:51:39 <Andi> ack mpluke
14:51:47 <Andi> ack MaryJo
14:51:51 <David> q-
14:52:10 <Andi> In these cases, the content doesn’t “stand-alone”, but is “embedded” within the software user interface.
14:54:17 <Andi> Note 3: Software that provides only a "preview" of content, such as the first page of a document, first frame of a movie, or a thumbnail of an image in a file viewer is not a user agent.
14:54:47 <David> q+
14:54:49 <korn> q+
14:55:01 <Andi> ack andi
14:56:54 <Zakim> +Judy
14:57:17 <BBailey> +1 to what MaryJo (?) said about removing “Note to WCAG2ICT TF” at bottom of Proposal 2.
14:57:26 <Andi> ack gregg
14:59:10 <Andi> ack david
15:00:47 <MaryJo> We don't want to except times when information is presented with screen shots, such as a listing of books with screen shots of the book cover.  These screen shots should have alternative text.
15:00:57 <Andi> ack korn
15:00:59 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden
15:01:44 <MaryJo> We should say 'This definition shouldn't encompass...' instead of 'This does not apply..."
15:01:55 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has left #wcag2ict
15:02:38 <korn> q-
15:03:06 <MaryJo> The problem is not yet fully solved, so should address it outside of this meeting.
15:03:32 <MaryJo> Need to determine if any of the uses of 'user agent' is an issue or not for the preview functions.
15:04:46 <MaryJo> Is 2-way user communication considered content?  It is user-generated content and so is out of scope.
15:06:48 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept the definitions of 'content', 'user agent', and 'non-embedded content' in proposal 2.
15:07:28 <MaryJo> topic: New text for Introduction
15:07:34 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/SEP182012/results#xq2
15:08:23 <MaryJo> We need to make the substitutions of 'non-embedded content' for 'stand-alone content' in the proposal.
15:09:32 <MaryJo> The first two sentences don't support the 3rd sentence.  How do you assert that the requirements are less for non-embedded content?  Propose that this is removed.
15:18:52 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept proposal 2 for the addition to the introduction section to cover content and user agent.
15:18:59 <korn> q+
15:19:37 <MaryJo> topic: Change 'electronic document' to 'stand-alone content' in our guidance
15:19:54 <MaryJo> 'stand-alone content' is now 'non-embedded content'
15:21:26 <BBailey> q+
15:22:01 <MaryJo> We should take a final look before making the replacements.
15:22:08 <korn> q-
15:22:16 <Andi> action: Andi to look at all uses of "electronic document(s)" to see if there are any issues in replacing it with "non-embedded content"
15:22:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Look at all uses of "electronic document(s)" to see if there are any issues in replacing it with "non-embedded content" [on Andi Snow-Weaver - due 2012-09-28].
15:22:35 <Andi> ack bbailey
15:22:38 <korn> +1 to Bruce's suggestion
15:22:54 <MaryJo> Consider saying 'non-embedded content' is often referred to as 'electronic document(s)'
15:24:43 <mpluke> q+
15:25:00 <MaryJo> Concern expressed that if we change 'electronic document' is changed to 'non-embedded content' that it may make the SC's harder to understand for a lay-person.
15:25:39 <MaryJo> s/if we change 'electronic document'/if 'electronic document'
15:26:53 <MaryJo> Unfortunately, though 'electronic document' is more understandable, it is less precise and leaves out other types of non-embedded content.
15:27:26 <MaryJo> topic: Handling comments on the WCAG2ICT document.
15:28:29 <mpluke> q-
15:29:33 <MaryJo> For each comment, there are fields for working group notes and proposed resolution. Where do we put proposed changes to the document vs. comments to return back to the commenter?  
15:29:53 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow_Weaver
15:29:55 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
15:29:56 <Zakim> -Mike_Pluke
15:29:58 <Zakim> -[Oracle]
15:30:00 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
15:30:00 <Zakim> -Judy
15:30:01 <Zakim> -Kiran_Kaja
15:30:03 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
15:30:04 <mpluke> mpluke has left #wcag2ict
15:30:04 <MaryJo> If we don't have separate fields, we'll have to mark these clearly in the working group proposal.
15:30:06 <korn> korn has left #wcag2ict
15:30:09 <Zakim> -Mary_Jo_Mueller
15:30:10 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
15:30:10 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has ended
15:30:10 <Zakim> Attendees were Gregg_Vanderheiden, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Kiran_Kaja, Mary_Jo_Mueller, peter, Alex_Li, Mike_Pluke, Bruce_Bailey, David_MacDonald, Judy, Janina_Sajka, Peter_Korn
15:30:11 <Judy> Andi -- 
15:30:15 <janina> janina has left #wcag2ict
15:30:30 <MaryJo> rrsagent, make minutes
15:30:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/21-wcag2ict-minutes.html MaryJo
15:30:57 <Judy> Michael says we usually put the draft reply in the WG notes field; and then once more ready, in the "Proposed Response" field
15:32:07 <MaryJo> rrsagent, make minutes
15:32:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/21-wcag2ict-minutes.html MaryJo
17:38:51 <Judy> Judy has joined #wcag2ict
18:02:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
18:02:13 <MaryJo> zakim, bye
19:03:21 <Andi> trackbot, end meeting
19:03:21 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
19:03:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:03:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/21-wcag2ict-minutes.html trackbot
19:03:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
19:03:30 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/21-wcag2ict-actions.rdf :
19:03:30 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Andi to look at all uses of "electronic document(s)" to see if there are any issues in replacing it with "non-embedded content" [1]
19:03:30 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/21-wcag2ict-irc#T15-22-16