IRC log of forms on 2012-09-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:46:48 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/19-forms-irc
14:46:50 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:46:50 [Zakim]
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14:46:52 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
14:46:52 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
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Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
14:46:53 [trackbot]
Date: 19 September 2012
14:46:57 [Steven_]
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Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Sep/0010
14:47:35 [Steven_]
Chair: Steven
14:47:57 [Steven_]
Regrets: Erik, Philip, Kurt
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IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
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+??P13
15:02:24 [nvdbleek]
zakim, code?
15:02:43 [Zakim]
the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
15:03:39 [Zakim]
+nvdbleek
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+[IPcaller]
15:03:53 [John_Boyer]
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Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
15:04:07 [Zakim]
ok, alain, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
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+John_Boyer
15:07:21 [Steven_]
zakim, I am ?
15:07:21 [Zakim]
+Steven_; got it
15:07:31 [nvdbleek]
zakim, who is here?
15:07:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Steven_, nvdbleek, [IPcaller], John_Boyer
15:07:33 [Zakim]
On IRC I see John_Boyer, alain, Steven_, Zakim, RRSAgent, nvdbleek, Steven, trackbot
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15:21:46 [Steven_]
Scribe: Steven
15:21:48 [Steven_]
Topic: XForms course, November 2012 in Rockville, Maryland
15:21:48 [Steven_]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2012Sep/0002.html
15:21:58 [Steven_]
Steven: THis is just a heads up.
15:22:22 [Steven_]
s/TH/Th/
15:22:50 [Steven_]
Topic: Community Group
15:22:50 [Steven_]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2012Sep/0001.html
15:22:59 [Steven_]
Steven: WHo could chair, now Leigh is gone?
15:23:12 [Steven_]
John: Michael SperbergMcQueen?
15:23:19 [Steven_]
Steven: Hmmm. I'll ask him
15:23:34 [Steven_]
Topic: IndiUI TF
15:23:34 [Steven_]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Jul/0009
15:25:16 [Steven_]
Steven: More of a heads up, for people who may be interested. Definitly of interest for XFOrms
15:25:33 [Steven_]
s/Definitly/Definitely
15:25:49 [Steven_]
Topic: repeat index change
15:25:49 [Steven_]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Jul/0003.html
15:25:49 [Steven_]
http://www.w3.org/2012/07/25-forms-minutes.html#item04
15:27:28 [nvdbleek]
http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/doc/developer-guide/xforms-events#TOC-xxforms-index-changed
15:28:17 [Steven_]
Steven: We have 2 implementations, but we didn't actually resolve to adopt
15:28:24 [Steven_]
John: [discusses use case]
15:30:59 [Steven_]
Nick: It may not be enough to detect changes in the UI
15:31:28 [Steven_]
John: True, because the data may change under the index, without changing the index
15:32:19 [Steven_]
Steven: But in that case, you can still catch that
15:33:03 [nvdbleek]
This is also a really handy event http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/doc/developer-guide/xforms-events#TOC-xxforms-value-changed
15:33:55 [Steven_]
Steven: Blue-skying this, ideally you would have a special instance that holds the indexes, and then use a constraint.
15:34:22 [Steven_]
John: True... we even say something along those lines in the discussion of the index() function
15:35:20 [Steven_]
Steven: Is there a general design that we could try for?
15:35:31 [Steven_]
John: THe spec text is already there.
15:36:05 [Steven_]
Steven: Are you suggesting I can do a bind already?
15:36:09 [Steven_]
Nick: Yes
15:36:12 [Steven_]
John: Yes
15:36:40 [Steven_]
<bind nodeset="index('myrepeat')" ...
15:36:48 [Steven_]
Steven: like that?
15:37:02 [nvdbleek]
<xf:output value="row[idex('my-repeat')]/help"/>
15:37:05 [John_Boyer]
output or bind ref=some/node[index()]
15:37:19 [Steven_]
s/idex/index/
15:37:32 [John_Boyer]
s/index()/index('X')
15:38:03 [Steven_]
John: Then when the index changes, those ref and values know they have to update
15:38:21 [John_Boyer]
in bind case, it's a dynamic dep when in ref/nodeset but not when in calculate etc (MIPs)
15:38:38 [John_Boyer]
a repeat index is backed by an implicit instance node
15:39:24 [Steven_]
John: So technically we don't need the event
15:39:49 [Steven_]
... there may be a separate issue around how many nodes are in a nodeset and how many of them are relevant
15:40:13 [Steven_]
... I don't see so many repeat tables where some rows are non-relevant
15:40:39 [Steven_]
Nick: We have the relevant() function in XForms 2.0
15:42:36 [Steven_]
John: If you add valid() then all the other MIPS should be functions as well
15:43:00 [Steven_]
... but valid() is the hardest to do
15:43:31 [nvdbleek]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-xforms-xpath-20120807/#The_valid.28.29_Function
15:43:33 [John_Boyer]
because valid is confluence of MIPs like constraint plus things that are determined after recalculate (schema validity)
15:43:44 [Steven_]
Nick: They are good candidates to add.
15:43:51 [John_Boyer]
so if we added valid(), then there'd be no reason not to add relevant(), readonly() etc
15:45:21 [Steven_]
Nick: I'll send an email proposing them.
15:45:49 [nvdbleek]
http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/doc/developer-guide/xforms-xpath-functions#TOC-xxforms:valid-
15:46:04 [Steven_]
Steven: DO we still want the events?
15:46:12 [Steven_]
John: I think you talked us down from that
15:46:18 [Steven_]
s/DO/Do/
15:46:52 [Steven_]
John: It's just the secondary issues. that was a problem with the event version anyway.
15:47:09 [John_Boyer]
the index() function gives us declarative updates rather than event-driven, which is weaker as you say
15:47:18 [John_Boyer]
s/say/say, Steven
15:47:23 [nvdbleek]
http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/doc/developer-guide/xforms-xpath-functions#TOC-xxforms:evaluate-bind-property-
15:47:29 [Steven_]
Topic: function, variable and reserved namespaces
15:47:29 [Steven_]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Jun/0030.html
15:49:33 [Steven_]
Steven: Anything more to discuss on this?
15:49:43 [Steven_]
Nick: No, I think we agreed to this
15:50:34 [John_Boyer]
definitely
15:51:01 [Steven_]
Topic: ID resolution/clashes
15:51:02 [Steven_]
http://www.w3.org/2012/06/20-forms-minutes.html#item04
15:52:29 [Steven_]
Steven: If we had only used something other than ID...
15:53:34 [Steven_]
John: What happens if we get a clash on loading the doc?
15:53:41 [Steven_]
Nick: Non valid
15:54:29 [Steven_]
John: In this case we *want* to allow ID clashes.
15:56:18 [Steven_]
Nick: WIthout encapsulation, you can't embed it twice.
15:56:45 [Steven_]
... you can't dispatch events to them
15:57:53 [Steven_]
John: Otherwise we have to fix the IDs on loading
15:58:21 [Steven_]
Steven: That solves the problem, but you still can't dispatch events
15:59:43 [Steven_]
John: Will this be a real problem? Or can app designers account for it, and design appropriately?
16:01:53 [Steven_]
... Some people have done this to solve the problem, but we really need a deeper solution for subforms
16:02:03 [Steven_]
... this a bandaid, albeit a good one.
16:02:13 [Steven_]
... we need to create something smarter.\
16:02:29 [Steven_]
Topic: AOB
16:02:36 [Steven_]
John: Regrets for next week.
16:02:38 [Zakim]
-John_Boyer
16:02:40 [Zakim]
-Steven_
16:02:44 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
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IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
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Attendees were nvdbleek, [IPcaller], John_Boyer, Steven_
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Present+Alain
16:03:36 [Steven_]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/19-forms-minutes.html Steven_
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