15:57:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #audio
15:57:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-audio-irc
15:57:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:57:39 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #audio
15:57:41 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 28346
15:57:42 <trackbot> Meeting: Audio Working Group Teleconference
15:57:42 <trackbot> Date: 12 September 2012
15:57:42 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:57:52 <ot> zakim, this will be audio
15:58:06 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, ot
15:58:08 <jussi> jussi has joined #audio
15:58:12 <ot> wtf, zakim
15:59:28 <tross> tross has joined #audio
15:59:42 <ot> sigh
15:59:50 <ot> zakim, room for 8?
15:59:59 <Zakim> ok, ot; conference Team_(audio)15:59Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 1659Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
16:00:21 <ot> Meeting: W3C Audio Working Group Meeting
16:00:28 <ot> Chair: ot
16:00:38 <ot> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2012JulSep/0740.html
16:00:38 <ot> Agenda+ Interface naming (update)
16:00:38 <ot> Agenda+ Loop start/stop points
16:00:38 <ot> Agenda+ Use Cases and Requirements review
16:00:38 <ot> Agenda+ Revisiting the circular graph issue
16:00:39 <ot> Agenda+ Administrativia
16:01:05 <chris> conference code?
16:01:18 <jussi> chris: 26631
16:01:28 <chris> jussi: thanks
16:02:19 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #audio
16:02:38 <Zakim> Team_(audio)15:59Z has now started
16:02:45 <Zakim> + +1.510.334.aaaa
16:02:46 <ot> ot has changed the topic to: audio WG telcon - code this week is 36631# (ot)
16:02:50 <Zakim> +??P64
16:03:12 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:03:21 <ot> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:03:34 <Zakim> +ot; got it
16:03:42 <Zakim> -??P64
16:03:54 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:04:08 <Zakim> +??P64
16:04:10 <tross> zakim, Microsoft is me
16:04:20 <Zakim> +tross; got it
16:04:28 <ot> -> Agenda is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2012JulSep/0740.html
16:04:29 <jussi> zakim, ??P64 is me
16:04:57 <ChrisWilson> ChrisWilson has joined #audio
16:05:02 <ot> zakim, who is making noise?
16:05:07 <jussi> zakim, mute me
16:05:11 <Zakim> +jussi; got it
16:05:28 <tmichel> zakim, who is here?
16:05:33 <Zakim> +??P83
16:05:37 <ChrisWilson> "the conference is restricted at this time"??
16:05:44 <gcardoso> zakim, ??P83 is me
16:05:45 <ot> Chris, the code is 26631
16:05:47 <Zakim> jussi should now be muted
16:05:53 <Zakim> ot, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jussi (14%)
16:05:59 <ot> zakim, who is making noise?
16:06:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.510.334.aaaa, ot, tross, jussi (muted), ??P83
16:06:06 <ChrisWilson> mute jussi
16:06:08 <joe> joe has joined #audio
16:06:09 <Zakim> +gcardoso; got it
16:06:15 <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aabb
16:06:15 <rtoyg> rtoyg has joined #audio
16:06:16 <joe> I cannot connect
16:06:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisWilson, tmichel, tross, jussi, Zakim, RRSAgent, ot, chris, gcardoso, colinbdclark, foolip, paul___irish, rikrd, trackbot
16:06:27 <ot> joe, the code is 26631 today
16:06:30 <Zakim> ot, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ot (45%)
16:06:32 <joe> thx]
16:06:34 <ChrisWilson> zakim, +1.650 is me
16:06:37 <rikrd> rikrd has left #audio
16:06:40 <Zakim> +??P92
16:06:46 <ChrisWilson> zakim, aabb is me
16:07:04 <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
16:07:12 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisWilson, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
16:07:19 <tmichel> zakim, who is here?
16:07:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.510.334.aaaa, ot, tross, jussi (muted), gcardoso, ChrisWilson, ??P92
16:07:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see rtoyg, joe, ChrisWilson, tmichel, tross, jussi, Zakim, RRSAgent, ot, chris, gcardoso, colinbdclark, foolip, paul___irish, trackbot
16:07:34 <joe> sorry, now Zakim is not even answering the regular number
16:08:02 <ot> zakim, aaaa is crogers
16:08:02 <Zakim> +crogers; got it
16:08:35 <ot> zakim, room for 12?
16:08:37 <Zakim> ok, ot; conference Team_(audio)16:08Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 1708Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
16:09:03 <ot> agenda?
16:09:41 <ot> zakim, take up agendum 1
16:09:45 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Interface naming (update)" taken up [from ot]
16:10:25 <ot> Olivier: should we rename notegrainon to startgrain?
16:10:28 <joe> Is there an alternate Zakim number, cannot reach 617 761 6200
16:10:37 <ot> cwilso: sounds consistent
16:10:44 <ot> crogers: we could overload start
16:10:49 <ot> … depending on number of arguments
16:10:55 <ot> … but the name would always be start
16:10:56 <jussi> +1
16:11:02 <ot> cwilso: sounds better
16:11:02 <tross> +1
16:11:02 <ChrisWilson> +1
16:11:06 <joe> +1
16:11:22 <ot> joe, did you manage to connect or are you on IRC only?
16:11:35 <joe> irc only, Zakim appears to be down to my phone
16:11:44 <joe> "non-working number" recording
16:11:48 <ot> sorry to hear, will be taking notes
16:11:59 <joe> np, let's go w irc
16:12:16 <ot> ACTION: ot to add overloading of start to bugzilla
16:12:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-49 - Add overloading of start to bugzilla [on Olivier Thereaux - due 2012-09-19].
16:12:44 <ot> Olivier: crogers, any idea when the changes could get into the spec
16:13:06 <ot> crogers: busy with implementation at the moment, but will try to get changes there in next week or two
16:14:02 <ot> Olivier: sounds good.
16:14:31 <ot> [skipping loop start/stop points for now]
16:14:46 <ot> zakim, take up agendum 4
16:14:46 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Revisiting the circular graph issue" taken up [from ot]
16:15:01 <ot> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17326
16:16:52 <ot> Olivier: do we need more knowledge/understanding to go forward?
16:17:01 <ot> crogers: think we have a good understanding
16:17:24 <ot> … problem is when you have a delay in a feedback loop and do block processing, the block size is the minimum delay
16:17:34 <ot> … we've defined that value to be 128 sample frames
16:17:48 <ot> … depending on sample rate, this value defines a time in seconds
16:18:06 <ot> … no restriction on delay time when handled in seconds
16:18:14 <ot> … think we've decided not to throw exception
16:18:24 <ot> … and silently clamp to the minimum
16:19:18 <ot> Olivier: what do people (here) think of the proposal?
16:19:26 <ot> [no objection]
16:19:30 <joe> it seems fine
16:19:35 <ot> thanks joe
16:20:12 <Zakim> + +1.617.600.aacc
16:20:28 <joe> Zakim, aacc is joe
16:20:28 <Zakim> +joe; got it
16:20:30 <ot> Olivier: does this need to be added to the spec?
16:20:42 <ot> crogers: I think so
16:21:02 <ot> crogers: ROC was also asking what if you have several such delay nodes
16:21:13 <ot> … may not need to all be clamped
16:21:40 <ot> … opinion that we should not require optimisation, each node would be taken separately and be clamped if they are in a feedback loop
16:22:34 <ot> Olivier: are there cases where it would be difficult to detect a feedback loop?
16:22:49 <ot> crogers: not a problem, seeing our implementation
16:23:09 <ot> … but I think Marcus was worried about question of minimum delay in samples or seconds
16:23:29 <joe> q
16:23:34 <joe> q+
16:23:57 <ot> Proposed resolution: no exception if delay too low in feedback loop, clamp silently to minimum
16:24:18 <ot> crogers: the problem is solved if we define the minimum in terms of sample frames
16:24:25 <ot> … uniformly 128 sample frames
16:25:12 <ot> Olivier: seem to recall the indecision was because this would induce differences between devices with different sample rates
16:25:45 <ot> crogers: probably won't get to a conclusion without Marcus and Robert in the discussion
16:26:15 <ot> crogers: setting the limit in sample frames will make implementations easier
16:26:48 <ot> crogers: you will hear differences when you are running at different sample rates anyway
16:27:25 <ot> (joe, will ack you in a sec, write your question on IRC?)
16:27:55 <ot> Olivier: are there any precedent?
16:28:08 <ot> crogers: think most such systems do it by the sample block size
16:29:05 <ot> Olivier: would either make it easier to test?
16:29:07 <joe> (ot, I am on the call live now)
16:29:14 <ot> (joe, oh!)
16:29:34 <ot> crogers: not a problem if tests are run in a consistent environment
16:29:48 <ot> ack joe
16:30:26 <ot> joe: perhaps we could incorporate caveat on ability to perform certain tasks with feedback loops 
16:30:29 <Zakim> -tross
16:31:26 <ot> joe: IOW, leave support for feedback loop out
16:31:43 <ot> crogers: seems important to have though, fairly basic feature of modular systems
16:31:57 <ot> … ok with not talking about hard limits
16:32:22 <ot> crogers: I think we can define it at least in terms of sample frames
16:32:30 <ot> … and browser can get equivalent implementations that way
16:33:23 <ot> Olivier: so proposal would be to keep the clamping, but implementations can choose their minimum
16:33:30 <ot> joe: essentially, yes
16:33:35 <ot> … for v1, seems wise
16:34:50 <ot> zakim, close agendum
16:34:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close agendum', ot
16:34:59 <ot> zakim, close agendum 4
16:34:59 <Zakim> agendum 4, Revisiting the circular graph issue, closed
16:35:00 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:35:00 <Zakim> 1. Interface naming (update) [from ot]
16:35:04 <ot> zakim, close agendum 1
16:35:04 <Zakim> agendum 1, Interface naming (update), closed
16:35:05 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:35:05 <Zakim> 2. Loop start/stop points [from ot]
16:36:01 <ot> zakim, take up agendum 3
16:36:01 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Use Cases and Requirements review" taken up [from ot]
16:36:17 <ot> Call for review -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2012JulSep/0665.html
16:37:28 <ot> any objection to publishing as a WD with view to be a Note?
16:37:37 <ot> crogers: sounds good to me
16:37:55 <ot> … important to get this out
16:38:55 <ot> Resolved: publish webaudio-usecases as WD
16:39:00 <ot> zakim, close agendum 3
16:39:00 <Zakim> agendum 3, Use Cases and Requirements review, closed
16:39:02 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:39:02 <Zakim> 2. Loop start/stop points [from ot]
16:39:09 <ot> zakim, take up agendum 2
16:39:09 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Loop start/stop points" taken up [from ot]
16:39:53 <ot> -> Proposed: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17390#c6
16:40:16 <ot> joe: proposal is to augment current capability with loop mode enumeration
16:41:02 <ot> … additional behaviour would be to loop through range specified, until the stop time
16:41:10 <ot> … could have additional loop modes in the future
16:41:32 <ot> crogers: why can't we just have a loop start and end which, if 0, will loop the whole sample
16:41:37 <ot> joe: was the original proposal
16:42:18 <ot> … would be ok with it, but this proposal is a little cleaner and extensible
16:42:40 <ot> crogers: wondering if we could just overload start and end and add loop mode later - would that be dangerous
16:42:58 <ot> … if we are able to add loop mode at a later time, would that get rid of danger?
16:43:27 <ot> joe: think so. may end up with having to support an odd legacy behavior
16:43:56 <ot> … what if today someone uses start and end to specify a loop mode
16:44:09 <ot> … what happens when we add the loop mode parameter
16:44:23 <ot> crogers: we still have the loop attribute, right?
16:44:27 <ot> joe: yes
16:47:08 <ot> Olivier: would one proposal make it easier for the generic case of full loop
16:47:22 <ot> joe: both solutions would be quite simple for that case
16:47:44 <ot> crogers: what if we remove the mode of "loop entire sample"
16:47:57 <ot> … that's specified by having the parameters being the whole thing
16:48:07 <ot> joe: in which case we don't need the loop mode
16:48:21 <ot> crogers: yes, we could add loop modes (start/end and backwards) later
16:48:46 <ot> crogers: which is why I suggest having loop start and end be 0
16:48:49 <jussi> maybe use infinite?
16:49:13 <ot> crogers: what if the loop end is beyond the size of the sample
16:49:24 <ot> joe: I have clamping in proposal
16:49:35 <ot> crogers: what if the new buffer is shorter
16:50:04 <ot> joe: if you set start and end points that are invalid, clamped values are used in the playback
16:50:25 <ot> … this clamping does not affect visible/readable values of loop start and end
16:51:03 <ot> crogers: edge case if both are invalid, what would it sound like
16:51:16 <ot> crogers: like starting simple
16:51:29 <ot> ack jussi
16:51:50 <ot> jussi: what if the loop end is at infinity? would that be better than 0?
16:52:04 <ot> crogers: unsigned long, so there is no infinity
16:52:23 <ot> … brings up next question of looping at sub-sample valies
16:52:27 <ot> s/valies/values/
16:52:49 <ot> crogers: wondering if it's worth adding
16:52:57 <ot> joe: not sure it's worth it
16:53:09 <ot> crogers: probably not worth if the likes of soundfont do not do it
16:53:15 <jussi> zakim, mute me
16:53:15 <Zakim> jussi should now be muted
16:53:36 <ot> crogers: it is possible, but not too fond of it
16:54:13 <ot> joe: would favor going to a float now if we suspect we may have sub-sample looping
16:54:22 <ot> crogers: then should we go with infinity?
16:54:28 <jussi> nope
16:54:29 <ot> joe: would prefer 0 and 0 myself
16:54:39 <ot> crogers: do you feel strongly about infinity
16:54:42 <ot> jussi: no
16:55:06 <ot> Resolution: make loop start and end be floats, and 0 and 0 are default
16:55:15 <ot> crogers: rounded if fractional?
16:55:18 <ot> joe: yes
16:56:08 <ot> zakim, close agendum 2
16:56:08 <Zakim> agendum 2, Loop start/stop points, closed
16:56:09 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:56:09 <Zakim> 5. Administrativia [from ot]
16:57:56 <ot> Thierry: the charter has been updated with small suggestions
16:58:07 <ot> … should be vetted soon
16:58:24 <ot> Thierry: registration for TPAC is ongoing, you have a few more weeks
16:59:02 <Zakim> This conference is in overtime; all ports must be freed
17:00:20 <jussi> Cheers!
17:00:25 <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
17:00:26 <Zakim> -joe
17:00:27 <Zakim> -ot
17:00:28 <Zakim> -gcardoso
17:00:28 <Zakim> -crogers
17:00:30 <Zakim> -jussi
17:00:31 <ot> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-audio-minutes.html ot
17:00:34 <Zakim> -??P92
17:00:36 <Zakim> Team_(audio)15:59Z has ended
17:00:36 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.510.334.aaaa, ot, tross, jussi, gcardoso, +1.650.214.aabb, ChrisWilson, crogers, +1.617.600.aacc, joe
17:00:42 <ot> rrsagent, make logs public
17:00:43 <ot> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-audio-minutes.html ot
17:01:06 <jussi> ot, I probably won't be able to make it to TPAC
17:01:13 <ot> rrsagent, bye
17:01:13 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-audio-actions.rdf :
17:01:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ot to add overloading of start to bugzilla [1]
17:01:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-audio-irc#T16-12-16