IRC log of audio on 2012-09-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:57:37 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #audio
15:57:37 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-audio-irc
15:57:39 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:57:39 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #audio
15:57:41 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 28346
15:57:42 [trackbot]
Meeting: Audio Working Group Teleconference
15:57:42 [trackbot]
Date: 12 September 2012
15:57:42 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:57:52 [ot]
zakim, this will be audio
15:58:06 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, ot
15:58:08 [jussi]
jussi has joined #audio
15:58:12 [ot]
wtf, zakim
15:59:28 [tross]
tross has joined #audio
15:59:42 [ot]
sigh
15:59:50 [ot]
zakim, room for 8?
15:59:59 [Zakim]
ok, ot; conference Team_(audio)15:59Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 1659Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
16:00:21 [ot]
Meeting: W3C Audio Working Group Meeting
16:00:28 [ot]
Chair: ot
16:00:38 [ot]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2012JulSep/0740.html
16:00:38 [ot]
Agenda+ Interface naming (update)
16:00:38 [ot]
Agenda+ Loop start/stop points
16:00:38 [ot]
Agenda+ Use Cases and Requirements review
16:00:38 [ot]
Agenda+ Revisiting the circular graph issue
16:00:39 [ot]
Agenda+ Administrativia
16:01:05 [chris]
conference code?
16:01:18 [jussi]
chris: 26631
16:01:28 [chris]
jussi: thanks
16:02:19 [tmichel]
tmichel has joined #audio
16:02:38 [Zakim]
Team_(audio)15:59Z has now started
16:02:45 [Zakim]
+ +1.510.334.aaaa
16:02:46 [ot]
ot has changed the topic to: audio WG telcon - code this week is 36631# (ot)
16:02:50 [Zakim]
+??P64
16:03:12 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:03:21 [ot]
zakim, IPcaller is me
16:03:34 [Zakim]
+ot; got it
16:03:42 [Zakim]
-??P64
16:03:54 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:04:08 [Zakim]
+??P64
16:04:10 [tross]
zakim, Microsoft is me
16:04:20 [Zakim]
+tross; got it
16:04:28 [ot]
-> Agenda is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2012JulSep/0740.html
16:04:29 [jussi]
zakim, ??P64 is me
16:04:57 [ChrisWilson]
ChrisWilson has joined #audio
16:05:02 [ot]
zakim, who is making noise?
16:05:07 [jussi]
zakim, mute me
16:05:11 [Zakim]
+jussi; got it
16:05:28 [tmichel]
zakim, who is here?
16:05:33 [Zakim]
+??P83
16:05:37 [ChrisWilson]
"the conference is restricted at this time"??
16:05:44 [gcardoso]
zakim, ??P83 is me
16:05:45 [ot]
Chris, the code is 26631
16:05:47 [Zakim]
jussi should now be muted
16:05:53 [Zakim]
ot, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jussi (14%)
16:05:59 [ot]
zakim, who is making noise?
16:06:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.510.334.aaaa, ot, tross, jussi (muted), ??P83
16:06:06 [ChrisWilson]
mute jussi
16:06:08 [joe]
joe has joined #audio
16:06:09 [Zakim]
+gcardoso; got it
16:06:15 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.214.aabb
16:06:15 [rtoyg]
rtoyg has joined #audio
16:06:16 [joe]
I cannot connect
16:06:19 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ChrisWilson, tmichel, tross, jussi, Zakim, RRSAgent, ot, chris, gcardoso, colinbdclark, foolip, paul___irish, rikrd, trackbot
16:06:27 [ot]
joe, the code is 26631 today
16:06:30 [Zakim]
ot, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ot (45%)
16:06:32 [joe]
thx]
16:06:34 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, +1.650 is me
16:06:37 [rikrd]
rikrd has left #audio
16:06:40 [Zakim]
+??P92
16:06:46 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, aabb is me
16:07:04 [Zakim]
+ChrisWilson; got it
16:07:12 [Zakim]
sorry, ChrisWilson, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
16:07:19 [tmichel]
zakim, who is here?
16:07:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.510.334.aaaa, ot, tross, jussi (muted), gcardoso, ChrisWilson, ??P92
16:07:30 [Zakim]
On IRC I see rtoyg, joe, ChrisWilson, tmichel, tross, jussi, Zakim, RRSAgent, ot, chris, gcardoso, colinbdclark, foolip, paul___irish, trackbot
16:07:34 [joe]
sorry, now Zakim is not even answering the regular number
16:08:02 [ot]
zakim, aaaa is crogers
16:08:02 [Zakim]
+crogers; got it
16:08:35 [ot]
zakim, room for 12?
16:08:37 [Zakim]
ok, ot; conference Team_(audio)16:08Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 1708Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
16:09:03 [ot]
agenda?
16:09:41 [ot]
zakim, take up agendum 1
16:09:45 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Interface naming (update)" taken up [from ot]
16:10:25 [ot]
Olivier: should we rename notegrainon to startgrain?
16:10:28 [joe]
Is there an alternate Zakim number, cannot reach 617 761 6200
16:10:37 [ot]
cwilso: sounds consistent
16:10:44 [ot]
crogers: we could overload start
16:10:49 [ot]
… depending on number of arguments
16:10:55 [ot]
… but the name would always be start
16:10:56 [jussi]
+1
16:11:02 [ot]
cwilso: sounds better
16:11:02 [tross]
+1
16:11:02 [ChrisWilson]
+1
16:11:06 [joe]
+1
16:11:22 [ot]
joe, did you manage to connect or are you on IRC only?
16:11:35 [joe]
irc only, Zakim appears to be down to my phone
16:11:44 [joe]
"non-working number" recording
16:11:48 [ot]
sorry to hear, will be taking notes
16:11:59 [joe]
np, let's go w irc
16:12:16 [ot]
ACTION: ot to add overloading of start to bugzilla
16:12:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-49 - Add overloading of start to bugzilla [on Olivier Thereaux - due 2012-09-19].
16:12:44 [ot]
Olivier: crogers, any idea when the changes could get into the spec
16:13:06 [ot]
crogers: busy with implementation at the moment, but will try to get changes there in next week or two
16:14:02 [ot]
Olivier: sounds good.
16:14:31 [ot]
[skipping loop start/stop points for now]
16:14:46 [ot]
zakim, take up agendum 4
16:14:46 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Revisiting the circular graph issue" taken up [from ot]
16:15:01 [ot]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17326
16:16:52 [ot]
Olivier: do we need more knowledge/understanding to go forward?
16:17:01 [ot]
crogers: think we have a good understanding
16:17:24 [ot]
… problem is when you have a delay in a feedback loop and do block processing, the block size is the minimum delay
16:17:34 [ot]
… we've defined that value to be 128 sample frames
16:17:48 [ot]
… depending on sample rate, this value defines a time in seconds
16:18:06 [ot]
… no restriction on delay time when handled in seconds
16:18:14 [ot]
… think we've decided not to throw exception
16:18:24 [ot]
… and silently clamp to the minimum
16:19:18 [ot]
Olivier: what do people (here) think of the proposal?
16:19:26 [ot]
[no objection]
16:19:30 [joe]
it seems fine
16:19:35 [ot]
thanks joe
16:20:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.600.aacc
16:20:28 [joe]
Zakim, aacc is joe
16:20:28 [Zakim]
+joe; got it
16:20:30 [ot]
Olivier: does this need to be added to the spec?
16:20:42 [ot]
crogers: I think so
16:21:02 [ot]
crogers: ROC was also asking what if you have several such delay nodes
16:21:13 [ot]
… may not need to all be clamped
16:21:40 [ot]
… opinion that we should not require optimisation, each node would be taken separately and be clamped if they are in a feedback loop
16:22:34 [ot]
Olivier: are there cases where it would be difficult to detect a feedback loop?
16:22:49 [ot]
crogers: not a problem, seeing our implementation
16:23:09 [ot]
… but I think Marcus was worried about question of minimum delay in samples or seconds
16:23:29 [joe]
q
16:23:34 [joe]
q+
16:23:57 [ot]
Proposed resolution: no exception if delay too low in feedback loop, clamp silently to minimum
16:24:18 [ot]
crogers: the problem is solved if we define the minimum in terms of sample frames
16:24:25 [ot]
… uniformly 128 sample frames
16:25:12 [ot]
Olivier: seem to recall the indecision was because this would induce differences between devices with different sample rates
16:25:45 [ot]
crogers: probably won't get to a conclusion without Marcus and Robert in the discussion
16:26:15 [ot]
crogers: setting the limit in sample frames will make implementations easier
16:26:48 [ot]
crogers: you will hear differences when you are running at different sample rates anyway
16:27:25 [ot]
(joe, will ack you in a sec, write your question on IRC?)
16:27:55 [ot]
Olivier: are there any precedent?
16:28:08 [ot]
crogers: think most such systems do it by the sample block size
16:29:05 [ot]
Olivier: would either make it easier to test?
16:29:07 [joe]
(ot, I am on the call live now)
16:29:14 [ot]
(joe, oh!)
16:29:34 [ot]
crogers: not a problem if tests are run in a consistent environment
16:29:48 [ot]
ack joe
16:30:26 [ot]
joe: perhaps we could incorporate caveat on ability to perform certain tasks with feedback loops
16:30:29 [Zakim]
-tross
16:31:26 [ot]
joe: IOW, leave support for feedback loop out
16:31:43 [ot]
crogers: seems important to have though, fairly basic feature of modular systems
16:31:57 [ot]
… ok with not talking about hard limits
16:32:22 [ot]
crogers: I think we can define it at least in terms of sample frames
16:32:30 [ot]
… and browser can get equivalent implementations that way
16:33:23 [ot]
Olivier: so proposal would be to keep the clamping, but implementations can choose their minimum
16:33:30 [ot]
joe: essentially, yes
16:33:35 [ot]
… for v1, seems wise
16:34:50 [ot]
zakim, close agendum
16:34:50 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close agendum', ot
16:34:59 [ot]
zakim, close agendum 4
16:34:59 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Revisiting the circular graph issue, closed
16:35:00 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:35:00 [Zakim]
1. Interface naming (update) [from ot]
16:35:04 [ot]
zakim, close agendum 1
16:35:04 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Interface naming (update), closed
16:35:05 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:35:05 [Zakim]
2. Loop start/stop points [from ot]
16:36:01 [ot]
zakim, take up agendum 3
16:36:01 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Use Cases and Requirements review" taken up [from ot]
16:36:17 [ot]
Call for review -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2012JulSep/0665.html
16:37:28 [ot]
any objection to publishing as a WD with view to be a Note?
16:37:37 [ot]
crogers: sounds good to me
16:37:55 [ot]
… important to get this out
16:38:55 [ot]
Resolved: publish webaudio-usecases as WD
16:39:00 [ot]
zakim, close agendum 3
16:39:00 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Use Cases and Requirements review, closed
16:39:02 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:39:02 [Zakim]
2. Loop start/stop points [from ot]
16:39:09 [ot]
zakim, take up agendum 2
16:39:09 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Loop start/stop points" taken up [from ot]
16:39:53 [ot]
-> Proposed: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17390#c6
16:40:16 [ot]
joe: proposal is to augment current capability with loop mode enumeration
16:41:02 [ot]
… additional behaviour would be to loop through range specified, until the stop time
16:41:10 [ot]
… could have additional loop modes in the future
16:41:32 [ot]
crogers: why can't we just have a loop start and end which, if 0, will loop the whole sample
16:41:37 [ot]
joe: was the original proposal
16:42:18 [ot]
… would be ok with it, but this proposal is a little cleaner and extensible
16:42:40 [ot]
crogers: wondering if we could just overload start and end and add loop mode later - would that be dangerous
16:42:58 [ot]
… if we are able to add loop mode at a later time, would that get rid of danger?
16:43:27 [ot]
joe: think so. may end up with having to support an odd legacy behavior
16:43:56 [ot]
… what if today someone uses start and end to specify a loop mode
16:44:09 [ot]
… what happens when we add the loop mode parameter
16:44:23 [ot]
crogers: we still have the loop attribute, right?
16:44:27 [ot]
joe: yes
16:47:08 [ot]
Olivier: would one proposal make it easier for the generic case of full loop
16:47:22 [ot]
joe: both solutions would be quite simple for that case
16:47:44 [ot]
crogers: what if we remove the mode of "loop entire sample"
16:47:57 [ot]
… that's specified by having the parameters being the whole thing
16:48:07 [ot]
joe: in which case we don't need the loop mode
16:48:21 [ot]
crogers: yes, we could add loop modes (start/end and backwards) later
16:48:46 [ot]
crogers: which is why I suggest having loop start and end be 0
16:48:49 [jussi]
maybe use infinite?
16:49:13 [ot]
crogers: what if the loop end is beyond the size of the sample
16:49:24 [ot]
joe: I have clamping in proposal
16:49:35 [ot]
crogers: what if the new buffer is shorter
16:50:04 [ot]
joe: if you set start and end points that are invalid, clamped values are used in the playback
16:50:25 [ot]
… this clamping does not affect visible/readable values of loop start and end
16:51:03 [ot]
crogers: edge case if both are invalid, what would it sound like
16:51:16 [ot]
crogers: like starting simple
16:51:29 [ot]
ack jussi
16:51:50 [ot]
jussi: what if the loop end is at infinity? would that be better than 0?
16:52:04 [ot]
crogers: unsigned long, so there is no infinity
16:52:23 [ot]
… brings up next question of looping at sub-sample valies
16:52:27 [ot]
s/valies/values/
16:52:49 [ot]
crogers: wondering if it's worth adding
16:52:57 [ot]
joe: not sure it's worth it
16:53:09 [ot]
crogers: probably not worth if the likes of soundfont do not do it
16:53:15 [jussi]
zakim, mute me
16:53:15 [Zakim]
jussi should now be muted
16:53:36 [ot]
crogers: it is possible, but not too fond of it
16:54:13 [ot]
joe: would favor going to a float now if we suspect we may have sub-sample looping
16:54:22 [ot]
crogers: then should we go with infinity?
16:54:28 [jussi]
nope
16:54:29 [ot]
joe: would prefer 0 and 0 myself
16:54:39 [ot]
crogers: do you feel strongly about infinity
16:54:42 [ot]
jussi: no
16:55:06 [ot]
Resolution: make loop start and end be floats, and 0 and 0 are default
16:55:15 [ot]
crogers: rounded if fractional?
16:55:18 [ot]
joe: yes
16:56:08 [ot]
zakim, close agendum 2
16:56:08 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Loop start/stop points, closed
16:56:09 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:56:09 [Zakim]
5. Administrativia [from ot]
16:57:56 [ot]
Thierry: the charter has been updated with small suggestions
16:58:07 [ot]
… should be vetted soon
16:58:24 [ot]
Thierry: registration for TPAC is ongoing, you have a few more weeks
16:59:02 [Zakim]
This conference is in overtime; all ports must be freed
17:00:20 [jussi]
Cheers!
17:00:25 [Zakim]
-ChrisWilson
17:00:26 [Zakim]
-joe
17:00:27 [Zakim]
-ot
17:00:28 [Zakim]
-gcardoso
17:00:28 [Zakim]
-crogers
17:00:30 [Zakim]
-jussi
17:00:31 [ot]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-audio-minutes.html ot
17:00:34 [Zakim]
-??P92
17:00:36 [Zakim]
Team_(audio)15:59Z has ended
17:00:36 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.510.334.aaaa, ot, tross, jussi, gcardoso, +1.650.214.aabb, ChrisWilson, crogers, +1.617.600.aacc, joe
17:00:42 [ot]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:00:43 [ot]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-audio-minutes.html ot
17:01:06 [jussi]
ot, I probably won't be able to make it to TPAC
17:01:13 [ot]
rrsagent, bye
17:01:13 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-audio-actions.rdf :
17:01:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ot to add overloading of start to bugzilla [1]
17:01:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-audio-irc#T16-12-16