00:03:01 <silvia> silvia has joined #media
21:31:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #media
21:31:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/11-media-irc
21:31:18 <janina> trackbot start meeting
21:31:23 <silvia> zakim, code?
21:31:23 <Zakim> sorry, silvia, I don't know what conference this is
21:31:37 <janina> zakim, room for 5
21:31:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'room for 5', janina
21:31:38 <JF> silvia, Janina has to request a room first'
21:31:45 <janina> zakim, room for 5?
21:31:47 <Zakim> ok, janina; conference Team_(media)21:31Z scheduled with code 2119 (A11Y) for 60 minutes until 2231Z
21:32:05 <janina> OK. Our good old code 2119#
21:32:22 <Zakim> Team_(media)21:31Z has now started
21:32:28 <Zakim> +??P0
21:32:34 <Zakim> +JF
21:32:50 <janina> zakim, ??P0 is Janina
21:32:50 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
21:32:52 <Zakim> +silvia
21:33:37 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
21:33:45 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
21:33:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/11-media-minutes.html janina
21:34:35 <janina> scribe: janina
21:34:51 <janina> silvia: worked some more, not enough, on the doc
21:34:58 <janina> silvia: tried to address concerns from yesterday
21:35:11 <JF> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/Issue194_SP
21:36:40 <janina> [looking at patterns in silvia's cp]
21:37:09 <janina> jf: Looking at the first pattern ...
21:38:22 <janina> silvia: putting track within div doesn't have a meaning at this time
21:38:43 <janina> silvia: an attrib on div would be background problem
21:38:53 <silvia> <video id=v1 src=video.mp4></video>
21:38:53 <silvia> <transcript for=v1 id=t1>
21:38:53 <silvia>  <track src=transcript1.vtt srclang=en default>
21:38:53 <silvia>  <track src=transcript2.vtt srclang=de>
21:38:53 <silvia> </transcript>
21:38:54 <janina> s/background/legacy/
21:39:21 <janina> jf: What's the discovery mechanism in that pattern?
21:39:23 <silvia> s/an attrib/an element inside/
21:39:24 <janina> silvia: @for
21:40:00 <janina> silvia: how the rendering happens needs discussion
21:40:05 <chaals> chaals has joined #media
21:40:20 <chaals> zakim, code?
21:40:20 <Zakim> the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), chaals
21:41:10 <Zakim> +??P3
21:41:19 <janina> silvia: rendering is going to be an issue regardless the underlying associating mechanism
21:41:25 <chaals> zakim, ??p3 is me
21:41:25 <Zakim> +chaals; got it
21:41:40 <janina> Yo!
21:43:01 <janina> q+
21:46:14 <janina> chls: no doubt we can meet all the use cases any number of ways
21:46:27 <janina> chls: still concerned mainly about authoring patterns
21:47:12 <janina> chls: Seems browsers learn to get this right faster than authors do
21:47:37 <JF> Q+
21:47:41 <janina> ack j
21:47:46 <janina> ack j
21:47:48 <janina> q+ jf
21:47:50 <JF> Q+
21:48:30 <janina> chls: authors too likely to break things
21:48:54 <janina> chls: if we expect them to get all the particulars correctly ligned up
21:48:56 <janina> ack j
21:49:08 <janina> jf: wants to speak to this as well ...
21:49:28 <janina> jf: looking at use case #2 ...
21:49:36 <chaals> s/authors/something like the worst 50% of authors/
21:49:39 <silvia> <video id=v1 src=video.mp4></video>
21:49:40 <silvia> <transcript for=v1 id=t1>
21:49:40 <silvia>  <a href=transcript.html>Transcript for the video</a>
21:49:40 <silvia> </transcript>
21:49:48 <chaals> s/too likely/more lkely than browsers/
21:50:32 <janina> jf: That some percentage of authors will push the transcript away from the video element, even push it off screen
21:51:21 <janina> jf: we're seeing more and more of these problems today--we have so many different ways to hide content
21:51:55 <silvia> q+
21:51:57 <janina> jf: This is why I think we need to solidly keep transcript with video
21:52:31 <janina> ack s
21:53:08 <janina> silvia: so, before addressing this, what's today's preferred hiding mechanism
21:53:24 <janina> jf: most robust way today is off-screen
21:53:31 <janina> jf using css
21:53:59 <janina> jf: but focusable content in that off-screen creates problems for keyboard users
21:54:20 <janina> s/keyboard/sighted keyboard/
21:54:30 <chaals> q+ to respond... too
21:54:52 <janina> ack c
21:54:52 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to respond... too
21:55:29 <janina> chls: so, sensible guidance says: "don't hide it."
21:55:44 <janina> chls: but then your customer says: "hide it somehow"
21:56:37 <janina> chls: it's the browser/at that makes things discoverable, e.g. jfw with longdesc
21:56:57 <janina> chls: the best people get it right, and more right than the browsers even
21:57:12 <janina> chls: average developer will likely get it wrong because all these techniques have issues
21:57:30 <janina> chls: so, what's suggested for browsers to do?
21:58:34 <janina> chls: many hiding techniques were for making pix of fonts a11y
21:58:48 <JF> Q+
21:59:12 <janina> chls: of course, this handled only one area of a11y -- didn't handle high contrast need, for instance
22:00:19 <janina> chls: the solution that hides it until you tab to it is messy and definitely breaks page appearance
22:00:42 <janina> s/appearance/layout/
22:01:30 <janina> jf: whatever mechanism we come up with needs to put a button in the controls
22:01:34 <silvia> q+
22:02:16 <janina> q+
22:02:25 <janina> ack jf
22:03:41 <janina> silvia: back to the hiding problem ....
22:04:08 <janina> silvia: want to address the request to keep transcript with the video element ...
22:04:44 <janina> silvia: the transcript needs to be navigable
22:04:46 <chaals> q+ to say I think we can make the buttons and text navigable in any model
22:04:49 <JF> Q+ to say that the activation mechanism for showing/hiding the transcript is what we need to deal with
22:06:49 <janina> silvia: think hiding is orthogonal
22:07:27 <JF> ack silvia
22:07:33 <JF> Q+ silvia
22:07:45 <JF> ack janina
22:07:55 <silvia> q+
22:09:29 <janina> janina: suggesting an omnibus "alternate renderings" button
22:09:46 <janina> janina: noting that users who need certain alt types will configure to auto select them
22:10:04 <janina> silvia: working on chrome buttons, we haven't found an optimum solution yet
22:10:43 <janina> silvia: regardless, how these are 'buttoned' is not for the spec to define, though guidance may be ok
22:12:00 <JF> Q?
22:12:05 <JF> ack chaals
22:12:05 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say I think we can make the buttons and text navigable in any model
22:12:06 <janina> chls: suspect we may never find an optimum solution for rendering availability -- buttons ...
22:12:20 <janina> chls: closest we get is workable solutions, and every browser's is different
22:12:51 <janina> chls: we shouldn't prescribe
22:13:57 <silvia> q+
22:14:55 <janina> chls: suggest we should be trying to provide a way for browsers to put some kind of button before the user rather than hardcoding a proximate on screen rendering
22:16:51 <janina> chls: relying on users needing to upgrade browsers in the short term may be worth it to get this right for the future
22:17:03 <JF> ack jf
22:17:03 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to say that the activation mechanism for showing/hiding the transcript is what we need to deal with
22:17:33 <janina> jf: agree that there may be an misunderstanding here
22:18:25 <janina> jf: want to go back to the downloadable transcript use case ...
22:18:41 <janina> jf: i'm concerned about what's the mechanism that allows the user to do that?
22:20:19 <janina> jf: the browsers that have taken the trouble to indicate longdesc is available have done a good job of this
22:20:51 <janina> silvia: want to avoid solutions that require js
22:21:57 <janina> silvia: agree not to rely on developers to render
22:22:42 <JF> q+
22:22:49 <JF> ack silvia
22:23:13 <janina> silvia: i definitely want the browser to render, with sync if available
22:23:24 <chaals> [Yeah, I think we're on the same page about wanting the browser to handle the rendering as far as possible]
22:23:30 <chaals> q+
22:24:02 <chaals> q+ to say I'd take the job of teaching authors who have interactive transcripts over the job of teaching authors who have some kind of transcript...
22:25:01 <JF> ack JF
22:25:07 <JF> ack chaals
22:25:07 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say I'd take the job of teaching authors who have interactive transcripts over the job of teaching authors who have some kind of transcript...
22:25:55 <JF> Q+ to return to the authoring pattern
22:26:02 <janina> chls: noting web intents is relevant here -- to enable an ordinary web page to get the player for the media type to render
22:26:56 <janina> chls: the people who most need the noninteractive transcript will survive without video rendering
22:28:27 <silvia> <video id=v1 src=video.mp4></video>
22:28:28 <silvia> <transcript for=v1 id=t1>
22:28:28 <silvia>  <a href=transcript.doc>Transcript for the video</a>
22:28:28 <silvia> </transcript>
22:29:00 <janina> chls: we don't need the same quality solution for edge cases that we need for the naive case
22:29:30 <JF> <video id=v1 src=video.mp4></video>
22:29:32 <JF> <transcript for=v1 id=t1 class="CSS_OFF_SCREEN">
22:29:33 <JF>  <a href=transcript.html>Transcript for the video</a>
22:29:35 <JF> </transcript>
22:30:02 <silvia> q+
22:30:43 <janina> jf: do I understand the transcript element is akin to aside or landmark?
22:30:45 <janina> silvia: yes
22:31:19 <janina> jf: so the association to video is performed by the transcript element ... 
22:31:33 <silvia> <video id=v1 transcript=t1 src=video.mp4></video>
22:31:33 <silvia> <transcript id=t1>
22:31:33 <silvia> <a href=transcript.doc>Transcript for the video</a>
22:31:33 <silvia> </transcript>
22:31:38 <janina> jf: still concerned about the client who wants me to hide it
22:32:23 <JF> Q?
22:32:27 <JF> ack JF
22:32:27 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to return to the authoring pattern
22:33:06 <janina> silvia: if hidden then only discoverable to screen reader users, but that's not useful to sighted users
22:33:25 <janina> silvia: to make it available for sighted users would need a button on video
22:33:47 <janina> silvia: what about a transcript attrib on video element?
22:34:23 <janina> silvia: sounds like you'd prefer attrib? would be ok by me
22:35:03 <janina> jf: would we be able to expose that in the controls?
22:35:10 <janina> jf: wcan we make it default behavior?
22:35:22 <janina> silvia: yes, either way, and we can recommend the behavior
22:35:26 <janina> jf: rfc2119 should?
22:35:32 <janina> silvia: that's all we can do with controls
22:35:55 <janina> chls: even if it's rfc2119 must we can't force browsers
22:36:05 <janina> silvia: rendering by browsers is beyond this spec
22:36:36 <chaals> q+
22:36:59 <JF> <video id=v1 transcript=t1 src=video.mp4></video>
22:37:00 <JF> <transcript id=t1 src=transcript.doc>
22:37:02 <JF> Transcript for the video
22:37:03 <JF> </transcript>
22:37:05 <silvia> ack me
22:37:32 <janina> silvia: prefer not because might need a list of links
22:38:33 <janina> chls: so, three transcripts -- how to distinguish between them?
22:40:03 <JF> <video id=v1 transcript=t1 src=video.mp4></video>
22:40:04 <JF> <transcript id=t1>
22:40:06 <JF> <track src=transcript_en.doc srclang="EN">
22:40:07 <JF> <track src=transcript_de.doc srclang="DE">
22:40:09 <JF> </transcript>
22:40:16 <silvia> q+
22:40:32 <JF> ack chaals
22:40:36 <chaals> [JF: better to reuse hreflang here]
22:40:37 <JF> ack silvia
22:41:08 <janina> silvia: don't think the track will work
22:42:12 <janina> silvia: want to keep track semantics -- so don't want pdf, etc in track
22:42:58 <janina> silvia: the hidden tab problem is generic not specific to this
22:43:11 <janina> jf: but we shouldn't perpetuate the generic problem
22:43:37 <silvia> q+
22:44:02 <chaals> q+ to say that the indirected link increases the surface of the problem, compared to something which does not rely on something that is by default hidden in the video element and handled by the UA
22:44:32 <silvia> ack me
22:44:36 <chaals> ack me
22:44:36 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say that the indirected link increases the surface of the problem, compared to something which does not rely on something that is by default hidden in the
22:44:39 <JF> ack chaals
22:44:40 <Zakim> ... video element and handled by the UA
22:45:07 <JF> zakim, whos' here?
22:45:07 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, JF.
22:45:17 <JF> zakim, who's here?
22:45:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Janina, JF, silvia, chaals
22:45:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see chaals, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, JF, silvia
22:45:43 <JF> zakim, unmute chaals
22:45:43 <Zakim> chaals was not muted, JF
22:46:47 <janina> silvia: suggest avoiding the keyboard focus problem shouldn't prevent us from solving transcript in a uniform manner
22:47:28 <janina> silvia: anything else was requiring rendering inside the video element
22:48:02 <janina> jf: can't speak for the tf on this, but solving one problem by perpetuating another may not be acceptable
22:49:47 <silvia> q+
22:50:29 <janina> Bring on ARIA Landmarks!
22:50:46 <janina> give me back html 2.0! <grin>
22:50:50 <JF> <transcript id=t1>
22:50:51 <JF> <option src=transcript_en.doc srclang="EN">
22:50:53 <JF> <option src=transcript_de.doc srclang="DE">
22:50:54 <JF> </transcript>
22:51:22 <chaals> [/me doesn't like using option - I'd rather put the links inside the transcript container and hide them a la object...]
22:51:39 <chaals> [if we are getting the video player to pick up the links anyway]
22:52:19 <chaals> [(option just seems a bit off to one side for me)]
22:52:22 <silvia> aria-onlyAT
22:53:01 <JF> <div hidden aria-hidden="false">
22:53:13 <chaals> [Taking things away from the normal browser isn't that flash either]
22:55:01 <silvia> zakim, who is making noise?
22:55:08 <janina> zakim, who's noisy?
22:55:12 <Zakim> silvia, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Janina (17%), JF (36%), chaals (100%)
22:55:25 <Zakim> janina, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: JF (7%), chaals (80%)
23:03:48 <JF> <video id=v1 transcript=t1 src=video.mp4></video>
23:03:49 <JF> <transcript id=t1>
23:03:51 <JF> <TBD src=transcript_en.doc srclang="EN">
23:03:53 <JF> <TBD src=transcript_de.doc srclang="DE">
23:03:54 <JF> </transcript>
23:05:23 <JF> <transcript id=t1>
23:05:24 <JF> <option src=transcript_en.doc srclang="EN">English Transcript</option>
23:05:26 <JF> <option src=transcript_de.doc srclang="DE">German Transcript</option>
23:05:28 <JF> </transcript>
23:07:09 <JF> I can do that
23:13:00 <janina> rsagent, make minutes
23:13:15 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
23:13:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/11-media-minutes.html janina
23:13:40 <Zakim> -JF
23:13:42 <Zakim> -silvia
23:13:42 <Zakim> -chaals
23:13:44 <Zakim> -Janina
23:13:44 <Zakim> Team_(media)21:31Z has ended
23:13:44 <Zakim> Attendees were JF, Janina, silvia, chaals
23:14:15 <chaals> seeya folks.
23:14:19 <chaals> chaals has left #media
23:14:25 <silvia> cya!
23:16:58 <janina> janina has left #media
23:17:06 <janina> janina has joined #media
23:17:40 <janina> janina has changed the topic to: Media Subteam Teleconference; Thursday 17 May at 21:30Z for 90 minutes (janina)
23:17:50 <janina> janina has left #media