IRC log of swcg on 2012-04-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:59:56 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swcg
11:59:56 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/04-swcg-irc
11:59:58 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
12:00:00 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7924
12:00:01 [trackbot]
Meeting: Semantic Web Coordination Group Teleconference
12:00:01 [trackbot]
Date: 04 April 2012
12:00:02 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #swcg
12:00:08 [ivan]
Chair: Ivan
12:14:09 [ivan]
zakim, code?
12:14:09 [Zakim]
sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is
12:17:37 [ivan]
ivan has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/04FFB155-85FD-4676-92EE-A5871555FB60@w3.org
12:53:34 [Luc]
Luc has joined #swcg
12:57:41 [ivan]
Regrets: George, Michael
12:59:25 [pgroth]
pgroth has joined #swcg
12:59:47 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
12:59:47 [Zakim]
sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is
12:59:53 [ivan]
???
13:00:05 [ivan]
zakim, this is SWCG
13:00:05 [Zakim]
ivan, I see SW_CG()9:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be SWCG".
13:00:15 [ivan]
zakim, this will be SWCG
13:00:15 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; I see SW_CG()9:00AM scheduled to start now
13:00:23 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
13:00:23 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
13:00:24 [Zakim]
SW_CG()9:00AM has now started
13:00:25 [Zakim]
+Ivan
13:01:11 [Zakim]
+ +31.20.598.aaaa
13:01:17 [IanH]
IanH has joined #swcg
13:01:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.540.898.aabb
13:01:26 [bhyland]
aabb is bhyland
13:01:30 [Zakim]
+David_Wood
13:01:38 [ivan]
zakim, aaaa is Guus
13:01:39 [Zakim]
+Guus; got it
13:01:58 [tbaker]
tbaker has joined #swcg
13:02:19 [Zakim]
+??P12
13:02:28 [pgroth]
Zakim, ??P12 is me
13:02:28 [Zakim]
+pgroth; got it
13:02:39 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
13:02:42 [Guus]
Guus has joined #swcg
13:02:51 [Zakim]
+ +44.238.059.aacc
13:03:02 [ivan]
zakim, IPcaller is ian
13:03:02 [Zakim]
+ian; got it
13:03:07 [Zakim]
+ +1.781.899.aadd
13:03:09 [Zakim]
+??P16
13:03:15 [ivan]
zakim, aacc is Luc
13:03:15 [Zakim]
+Luc; got it
13:03:17 [Zakim]
+Tom_Baker (was ??P16)
13:03:35 [ivan]
zakim, aadd is Sandro
13:03:35 [Zakim]
+Sandro; got it
13:05:24 [ivan]
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/253067/ibm_releases_db2_version_10_the_first_big_upgrade_in_four_years.html
13:06:08 [ivan]
scribenick: ianh
13:06:23 [ivan]
-> http://www.w3.org/2012/03/21-swcg-minutes.html minutes of last meeting
13:06:35 [IanH]
Ivan: Minutes approved?
13:06:47 [IanH]
Ivan: Approved
13:06:56 [IanH]
Ivan: Next Meeting?
13:07:33 [sandro]
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/04/03/ibm_db2_10_infosphere_10/ "Graph data is stored in a special format called Resource Definition Framework (RDF), and you query a data store with this data using a query language called SPARQL."
13:07:45 [IanH]
Ivan: Sandro will chair in 2 weeks due to Ivan being at WWW
13:07:58 [IanH]
Ivan: Total lack of self congratulation
13:08:05 [ivan]
-> http://www.w3.org/mid/CAJCyKRqg-gAEKm0H_+_fq6RXW7pF=1xDY3g2PPO1oVvzdshOEw@mail.gmail.com Paul's mail
13:08:07 [sandro]
(but will cancel if nothing interesting is happening)
13:08:38 [IanH]
Ivan: Provenance -v- GLD issues
13:08:41 [ivan]
Regret+ MichaelH
13:09:28 [IanH]
Paul: Had a look at GLP FPWDs. Organisation and People have agents; looks like FOAF.
13:10:17 [IanH]
Paul: Also have notion of agent within provenance ontology; redefined and not just direct from FOAF (although modelling style is similar).
13:10:46 [IanH]
Paul: Too many different agents; need mappings or advice as to which one to use.
13:10:52 [bhyland]
The GLD ED is here https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gld/raw-file/default/people/index.html
13:10:53 [pgroth]
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gld/raw-file/default/people/index.html
13:11:13 [pgroth]
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gld/raw-file/default/org/index.html
13:11:43 [IanH]
Sorry, but I don't know who is speaking.
13:12:20 [pgroth]
+q to respond
13:12:26 [IanH]
Bernadette: Hasn't been responsible for relevant work and so can't really comment.
13:12:58 [IanH]
Sandro: Not sure exactly what is going on but thinks there is plan for merger of vocabularies.
13:13:53 [IanH]
Sandro: Expects result to be less like FOAF; maybe no agent concept; has to bridge between foaf and scheme.org; will use rdf:subclass to link; could do same to link with provenance
13:14:29 [ivan]
ack pgroth
13:14:29 [Zakim]
pgroth, you wanted to respond
13:14:45 [IanH]
Bernadette: Suggests coordinating with Michael and/or Dave Reynolds; make sure fundamentals such as People vocab dovetails nicely.
13:15:05 [IanH]
zakim, who is here?
13:15:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ivan, Guus, +1.540.898.aabb, David_Wood, pgroth, ian, Luc, Sandro, Tom_Baker
13:15:50 [bhyland]
I agree with you pgroth, people just want direction on the one to use, make it simple to use.
13:15:52 [IanH]
David: seems odd to have so many uris for the same concept; maybe shouldn't have agents in provenance
13:15:54 [bhyland]
q+
13:16:01 [IanH]
q+
13:16:19 [pgroth]
attribution
13:17:18 [pgroth]
q+ to respond
13:17:20 [IanH]
Ivan: Are there special req. for provenance justifying having own vocab rather than just referring to FOAF; would prefer using unique uris in W3C land.
13:17:25 [ivan]
ack pgroth
13:17:25 [Zakim]
pgroth, you wanted to respond
13:18:24 [sandro]
q?
13:18:33 [IanH]
Paul: Prov. has agents and people because attribution is a key req -- need to know who did what; shouldn't use "non-standard" namespaces?
13:18:44 [Luc]
q+
13:18:46 [pgroth]
Luc, was the reasoning right?
13:19:24 [Luc]
we needed person, organization and softwareAgent. SofwareAgent is not in FOAF.
13:19:25 [IanH]
Ivan: Grey area, but FOAF already used in other standards
13:19:25 [ivan]
ack bhyland
13:20:14 [sandro]
SEMIC
13:21:30 [IanH]
Bernadette: Agrees with Ivan; May be some problems with FOAF, e.g., w.r.t. definition of European names; let's see if alignment is possible; having a conversation about this would be good.
13:22:28 [ivan]
zakim, IanH
13:22:28 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'IanH', ivan
13:22:48 [sandro]
q+ to say I don't know which is simpler -- making people use a term in another namespace...?
13:23:00 [ivan]
ack IanH
13:23:19 [sandro]
IanH: It may actually be a GOOD thing to have multiple names for the same thing, linked together with subClass or equivalentClass
13:23:34 [davidwood]
q+
13:23:35 [pgroth]
it is a good thing…technologically… but not from an adoption perspective
13:23:42 [sandro]
... otherwise you're trying to mandate a standard upper ontology, and efforts to do that have historically always come to grief
13:23:58 [sandro]
... because orgs end up have important differences between their upper level concepts, like People
13:24:11 [sandro]
... and even if they mean the same thing, people are used to using different terms for the same thing.
13:24:20 [ivan]
ack Luc
13:24:32 [sandro]
... so why NOT let that all go ahead, and tie it together with subclass/equivalentClass assertions
13:24:41 [IanH]
zakim, who is here?
13:24:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ivan, Guus, +1.540.898.aabb, David_Wood, pgroth, ian, Luc, Sandro, Tom_Baker
13:25:04 [sandro]
luc: FOAF didnt have software agents, so we needed a new class
13:25:29 [bhyland]
q+
13:25:30 [ivan]
ack sandro
13:25:31 [Zakim]
sandro, you wanted to say I don't know which is simpler -- making people use a term in another namespace...?
13:25:33 [sandro]
luc: I take Ian's view that it's up to the users to decide if this is the same as foaf:agent or not
13:25:42 [IanH]
Luc: provenance had to distinguish persons, organisations and software agents; foaf didn't have the latter; decided to create own classes and leave it to others to decide equivalence or otherwise with foaf
13:26:23 [ivan]
ack davidwood
13:26:29 [IanH]
Sandro: Agrees with Ian; worries about history of failed upper ontology efforts; also avoids mixing/importing namespaces
13:26:56 [ivan]
q+
13:27:41 [sandro]
( clearly there a split here based on how people feel about ontology reasoning... )
13:28:18 [IanH]
David: Agrees that strength of RDF is flexibility and lack of upper level ontology, but sees benefit of vocab alignment and (re-)use of (defacto) standard vocab. Biggest problem of warehousing and data alignment is use of multiple vocab. Middle ground is encouraging re-use and only inventing new vocab if needed.
13:28:32 [IanH]
Sandro: did consider and reject due to lack of software agent
13:29:03 [IanH]
David: Don't reject an entire vocab due to lack of one or two terms; try to re-use as much as possible
13:29:06 [ivan]
ack bhyland
13:29:33 [sandro]
sandro: I'm not saying to throw out the vocab -- of course, relate the two
13:29:37 [Luc]
... and even more nuances once it comes to 'agent' !!!!!
13:31:21 [IanH]
Bernadette: People vocab in GLD wasn't available; let's see if this is sufficient for provenance; don't make people handle complexity of multiple vocabs; surely for something as basic as person we can get some agreement
13:31:23 [ivan]
ack ivan
13:31:44 [sandro]
q+ to say I don't object to trying to merge the two, but don't make it a requirement
13:33:17 [bhyland]
for the record, my suggestion is that the Prov ED authors speak with mhausenblas and dave reynolds to nut out if People Vocab can be extended to encompass Agent from Prov Data model.
13:33:17 [IanH]
Ivan: Agrees that standard vocab is good; this is how schema.org started; finding "right" vocab was too difficult; would like to explore alignment between two groups
13:33:18 [ivan]
ack sandro
13:33:18 [Zakim]
sandro, you wanted to say I don't object to trying to merge the two, but don't make it a requirement
13:34:15 [Luc]
+1 to sandro, the topic of agent is a source of never-ending discussions in prov-wg
13:34:28 [IanH]
Sandro: good to try, but setting bar too high; could take a long time; reasonable to let them try but don't push too hard.
13:34:33 [bhyland]
I'm proposing coordinating a 1 hr phone call to see if this can be achieved. If so, great. If not, we may punt to two namespaces to handle Agent and People.
13:35:00 [IanH]
Ivan: agreed that some discussion will take place between groups, say in next 2 months
13:35:02 [pgroth]
myself and luc
13:35:08 [sandro]
There's no question that there WILL be two namespaces. The only question is whether Agent is also in Prov, or only in People.
13:35:30 [IanH]
Ivan: Paul and Luc plus Bernadette and Michael should participate
13:35:43 [IanH]
Action: Bernadette to coordinate phone call
13:35:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-8 - Coordinate phone call [on Bernadette Hyland - due 2012-04-11].
13:36:03 [sandro]
action-8?
13:36:03 [trackbot]
ACTION-8 -- Bernadette Hyland to coordinate phone call -- due 2012-04-11 -- OPEN
13:36:03 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/CG/track/actions/8
13:36:39 [IanH]
Ivan: AOB?
13:37:07 [sandro]
action-8?
13:37:07 [trackbot]
ACTION-8 -- Bernadette Hyland to set up phone call between GLD People vocab people and PROV Agent vocab people -- due 2012-04-11 -- OPEN
13:37:07 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/CG/track/actions/8
13:37:12 [IanH]
Ivan: W3C management gave green light to linked data platform charter
13:37:12 [bhyland]
@ivan, can you please paste link in so we can see what came together in the end?
13:37:47 [IanH]
Ivan: Goal is to present newly started group at SemTech (group start 1st June)
13:37:58 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/charter
13:38:38 [IanH]
Sandro: Can't have WG meeting at SemTech, but hope to organise informal getting to know each other meeting.
13:38:58 [bhyland]
q+
13:39:17 [ivan]
ack bhyland
13:39:21 [IanH]
Ivan: SemTech panel about WG on Thursday(?)
13:41:13 [ivan]
q?
13:41:30 [IanH]
Ivan: Meeting Closed
13:41:44 [Zakim]
-ian
13:41:47 [Zakim]
-Tom_Baker
13:41:50 [Zakim]
-pgroth
13:41:55 [Zakim]
- +1.540.898.aabb
13:42:03 [Zakim]
-Luc
13:42:20 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:42:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/04-swcg-minutes.html ivan
13:42:51 [bhyland]
my final point was there is a possibility that I won't be at SemTech SF to deliver my talk on Publishing Open Gov't Data Worldwide if a competing conference accepts a presentation (Health Datapalooza in DC same week).
13:43:08 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:43:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/04-swcg-minutes.html ivan
13:43:47 [davidwood]
bhyland, I will be at SemTech and can deliver your talk if you like.
13:45:04 [bhyland]
thanks. that may be a good back up plan.