13:24:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swcg
13:24:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/07-swcg-irc
13:24:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:24:27 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #swcg
13:24:29 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7924
13:24:29 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_CG()9:00AM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
13:24:30 <trackbot> Meeting: Semantic Web Coordination Group Teleconference
13:24:30 <trackbot> Date: 07 March 2012
13:51:08 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #swcg
13:53:35 <Zakim> SW_CG()9:00AM has now started
13:53:42 <Zakim> +??P8
13:53:56 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P8 is me
13:53:56 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
13:54:04 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
13:54:04 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
13:54:05 <Zakim> +Ivan
13:54:52 <ivan> Meeting: SW CG Telco
13:54:56 <ivan> Chair: Ivan
13:55:01 <ivan> Regrets: George
13:58:15 <tbaker> tbaker has joined #swcg
13:58:55 <Ashok_Malhotra> Ashok_Malhotra has joined #swcg
13:59:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:59:51 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
14:00:01 <tbaker> +IPcaller is TomB
14:01:40 <Zakim> + +1.540.898.aaaa
14:01:50 <Zakim> + +1.781.899.aabb
14:01:54 <davidwood> Zakim, aaaa is me
14:01:54 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
14:01:58 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
14:01:59 <sandro> zakim, have you lost your brains???
14:01:59 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, sandro.
14:02:12 <sandro> Zakim, aabb is me
14:02:12 <Zakim> +sandro; got it
14:02:13 <tbaker> TomB is IRC-only
14:03:34 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
14:03:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Ivan, Ashok_Malhotra, davidwood, sandro
14:03:34 <Luc> Luc has joined #swcg
14:04:00 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #swcg
14:04:21 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aacc
14:04:32 <ivan> zakim, aacc is Luc
14:04:32 <Zakim> +Luc; got it
14:04:46 <Zakim> +cygri
14:04:54 <mhausenblas> Zakim, cygri is really me
14:04:54 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
14:05:19 <davidwood> Scribe: David Wood
14:05:23 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2012/02/08-swcg-minutes.html last meeting's minutes
14:05:25 <davidwood> scribenick: davidwood
14:05:43 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept last meeting minutes
14:05:48 <mhausenblas> +1
14:05:51 <ivan> +1
14:05:55 <pgroth> +1
14:06:14 <davidwood> RESOLVED to accept http://www.w3.org/2012/02/08-swcg-minutes.html as accurate last meeting's minutes
14:06:32 <pgroth> does it come ever?
14:06:37 <pgroth> summer that is
14:06:45 <mhausenblas> Michael: Just learned that of today 'Axel Polleres no longer represents DERI' - re SPARQL WG
14:06:47 <davidwood> Next meeting will be one hour earlier for Europeans due to US DST.
14:06:59 <Zakim> + +1.571.331.aadd
14:07:17 <ivan> zakim, aadd is Bernadette
14:07:17 <Zakim> +Bernadette; got it
14:08:07 <davidwood> Axel Polleres is expected to be re-appointed by Seimens.
14:08:22 <LeeF> LeeF has joined #swcg
14:08:29 <ivan> s/Seimens/Siemens/
14:08:30 <davidwood> … and will need to be formally reappointed as SPARQL WG chair.
14:09:04 <Zakim> + +1.617.553.aaee
14:09:16 <LeeF> zakim, aaee is me
14:09:16 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
14:10:21 <ivan> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-semweb-cg/2012Jan/0001.html Agenda call
14:10:32 <davidwood> RDFa documents expected to go to CR on Tuesday
14:11:31 <davidwood> RDFa publications: RDFa 1.1 Core, RDFa+XHTML, RDFa Lite (FPWD), RDFa Prime.  See http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2011/12/09/rdfa-lite-1-1-draft-published-rdfa-1-1-primer-updated/
14:11:31 <davidwood> and http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2011/12/16/new-versions-of-rdfa-core-1-1-and-the-xhtmlrdfa-1-1-drafts/
14:11:55 <Guus> Guus has joined #swcg
14:12:02 <davidwood> Topic: Linked Data Patterns Workshop, work on a Linked Data Working Group charter
14:12:40 <Zakim> + +31.20.598.aaff
14:12:51 <Guus> zakim, +31.20.598.aaff is me
14:12:51 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
14:13:26 <ivan> zakim, who is noisy?
14:13:29 <davidwood> Work on charter continues.  Sandro trying to rein in to just addressing RDF
14:13:29 <sandro> proposed:  Mission: to standardize a simple and practical application integration technology based on REST and RDF.
14:13:37 <Zakim> ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: sandro (13%), Ivan (18%), Guus (23%)
14:14:29 <Guus> zakim, mute me
14:14:29 <Zakim> Guus should now be muted
14:14:57 <ivan> q+
14:14:59 <davidwood> Discussion around the draft charter has expanded (probably inappropriately) to involve general patterns, techniques.
14:15:03 <Ashok_Malhotra> q+
14:15:15 <ivan> ack ivan
14:15:50 <davidwood> Linked Data Platform Working Group DRAFT Charter: http://www.w3.org/2012/01/ldwg-charter.html
14:16:01 <mhausenblas> danbri around?
14:16:09 <davidwood> Ivan: "application integration" is too general a term.
14:18:45 <davidwood> Sandro listed some tasks needed by IBM for their own products.
14:18:47 <mhausenblas> q+ to ask about goals
14:18:52 <sandro> ivan: this is the equivalent of atompub, and what apps do with that is not in the scope of this wg
14:18:54 <ivan> q?
14:18:59 <ivan> ack Ashok_Malhotra 
14:19:03 <davidwood> Ivan: Product-specific concerns are not in the scope of the WG.
14:19:39 <sandro> Ashok_Malhotra: There were people wanting to add things like access control -- what are you thinking about that?
14:19:42 <davidwood> Ashok: Some people want to add access controls and security items to the charter.  
14:20:45 <sandro> ivan; The group will define and document REQUIREMENTS for access control (but not standardize the technology
14:20:47 <davidwood> Ivan: This was raised on the mailing list.  The group will define and document requirements for access control, but not recommend solutions.
14:21:08 <davidwood> … That is expected to stay in the charter.
14:22:02 <davidwood> Ashok: If we start with data and make it into Linked Data, then we build apps that use that Linked Data, we then have difficulties with parts of RDF.  One of the biggest ones is how to handle collections.  Another is how to handle very large data sets.
14:22:23 <sandro> Ashok_Malhotra: About Ivan's concern about App Int.   We start with lots of data, represented as Linked Data, then we start to write apps working with it.  When we do that, we have had difficulty with certain parts of existing RDF.  One of the biggest ones is how do you handle collections.  The other is how you handle very large datasets.   Etc.   So, the idea is to think about these and standardize patterns to be able to handle these situations.
14:22:25 <pgroth> +q to ask about why standardization and not best practice
14:22:33 <davidwood> … So we need to think about those problems and possibly standardize patterns that can be used to address these problems.
14:23:26 <sandro> ivan: My problem is: at some point in the time, the goals and mission have to be shown and made understood to the general public.  And for me, App Int goes beyond what a WG can do.
14:23:38 <davidwood> Ivan: The mission of the WG needs to be understood and made clear to the general public.  If there are additional patterns, that's fine, but "application integration" is still too general a term.
14:23:47 <davidwood> q+ to respond to Ashok, Ivan.
14:23:54 <mhausenblas> Michael: I'm looking at http://www.w3.org/2012/01/ldwg-charter.html - right?
14:24:04 <sandro>     Mission: to standardize a simple and practical application integration technology based on REST and RDF.
14:24:18 <ivan> ack mhausenblas 
14:24:18 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask about goals
14:24:20 <davidwood> Sandro: suggests a revised mission statement ^
14:24:38 <davidwood> Ashok: Can we use the term "application integration patterns"?
14:24:43 <mhausenblas> q?
14:24:46 <davidwood> …instead of "technology"
14:24:51 <mhausenblas> hey! I did not speak!
14:24:57 <davidwood> Sandro: Sure
14:25:04 <sandro>    Mission: to standardize a simple and practical application integration patterns based on REST and RDF.
14:25:30 <mhausenblas> [[The mission of the Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group, part of the Semantic Web Activity, is to provide standards to develop and deploy interoperable applications based on Linked Data. The scope of the Working Group is to provide profiles of existing Semantic Web standards, as well as to develop further W3C Recommendations in case the current standards do not cover needs arising in the area.]]
14:25:54 <davidwood> Michael: The mission and scope in the current draft differs.
14:26:11 <davidwood> Sandro is trying to change that.  Michael wants a concrete proposal.
14:26:46 <ivan> q?
14:30:11 <davidwood> Ivan: My question will be whether a change of emphasis will be acceptable.  The draft charter is too general.  Perhaps we need another, separate WG to define Linked Data profiles.
14:32:21 <davidwood> Discussions regarding the W3 process occurred.
14:32:57 <davidwood> Michael:  What is the current proposal?  Is it Sandro's?
14:32:59 <davidwood> Ivan: Yes
14:33:07 <ivan> q?
14:33:10 <ivan> ack pgroth 
14:33:10 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to ask about why standardization and not best practice
14:34:09 <davidwood> Paul:  Are you concerned about the "extra" recommendations?  Shouldn't these be best practices?  I am concerned that the WG could take a long time.
14:34:28 <davidwood> Sandro: Hopes that narrowing the focus will help.
14:34:48 <Zakim> +??P33
14:34:59 <davidwood> Sandro: AC review will probably narrow the focus anyway.
14:35:00 <tbaker> zakim, +??P33 is TomB
14:35:00 <Zakim> sorry, tbaker, I do not recognize a party named '+??P33'
14:35:16 <davidwood> zakim, +??P33 is tbaker
14:35:16 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I do not recognize a party named '+??P33'
14:35:30 <davidwood> zakim, P33 is tbaker
14:35:30 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I do not recognize a party named 'P33'
14:35:45 <ivan> zakim, ??P33 is tbaker
14:35:45 <Zakim> +tbaker; got it
14:35:52 <ivan> q?
14:36:02 <ivan> ack davidwood 
14:36:03 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to respond to Ashok, Ivan.
14:36:18 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: The mission of the LDP WG is to standardize a simple and practical  RESTful application integration technology that is Linked Data compliant.
14:37:29 <mhausenblas> Michael: Note, we should say 'LD compliant' rather than RDF (there *may* be an alternative serialization in JSON, see for example http://webofdata.wordpress.com/2012/02/05/json-http-data-links/)
14:38:02 <mhausenblas> Michael: Note as well that we would need to state what simple and practical means in a second sentence to follow this first sentence.
14:38:06 <sandro> davidwood: It seems to be that ... large enterprises have noticed problems with using RDF in anger ... and we each have our solutions ...    this group has a huge motivation to get it a solution right.    We owe it to ourselves to refine these patterns and get them out there.
14:38:08 <pgroth> +1 for guidance
14:38:20 <pgroth> point is *guidance*
14:38:35 <ivan> q?
14:38:57 <sandro> sandro: David, I'd really like to see your list of technologies you see necessary there, in case we need to enumerate them in the charter.  
14:39:00 <mhausenblas> Michael: For example, simple == TCO, ROI, implementation complexity and practical could be defined via the use case (80/20 solution)
14:39:14 <mhausenblas> q+ to talk about a concrete wording of the mission
14:39:41 <sandro> davidwood: Still working on it, cf callimachus.   Main thing is to expose existing data instead of migrating data to RDF.   That's the kind of pattern that's working for us.    It's a little early to suggest that be a W3C recommendation.
14:39:51 <mhausenblas> q?
14:39:55 <mhausenblas> ack me
14:39:56 <ivan> ack mhausenblas 
14:39:56 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to talk about a concrete wording of the mission
14:40:01 <davidwood> … but it could evolve into a best practice Note
14:40:19 <davidwood> Michael: Has a proposal.  Do you want it now?
14:40:35 <davidwood> Sandro: The CG can't decide, but a strawpoll would be helpful.
14:40:43 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: The mission of the LDP WG is to standardize a simple and practical  RESTful application integration technology that is Linked Data compliant.
14:40:50 <sandro> s/can't/doesn't/
14:41:37 <davidwood> (Scribe off) I think I know what "Linked Data compliant" means now, but not what it will mean next year.
14:41:45 <pgroth> I've got a counter proposal :-)
14:41:53 <sandro> mhausenblas, "RESTful" not "REST", "Linked Data" not "RDF".     We might want to use JSON.
14:42:01 <sandro> s/,/:/
14:42:52 <sandro> mhausenblas: If we confine ourselves to purely RDF serializations (RDF/XML, Turtle, RDFa), then    [ something about JSON ]
14:43:05 <sandro> sandro: So you don't want to rule out JSON?
14:43:08 <sandro> mhausenblas: Right.
14:43:13 <ivan> q?
14:43:19 <pgroth> q+
14:43:23 <ivan> ack pgroth 
14:43:30 <pgroth> PROPOSAL: The mission of the LDP WG is to recommend a set of simple and practical  RESTful application integration patterns that are Linked Data compliant.
14:43:52 <bhyland> we're getting warmer, +1 to this one.
14:43:54 <davidwood> +1 to Paul's proposal
14:44:08 <sandro> pgroth: "patterns" instead of "technologies"
14:44:12 <mhausenblas> +1 to Paul
14:44:13 <Ashok_Malhotra> +1 to Paul
14:44:15 <ivan> q?
14:44:18 <tbaker> q+
14:44:33 <ivan> ack tbaker 
14:44:34 <sandro> mhausenblas: Any objections, negative thoughts on this?
14:44:55 <davidwood> Tom: Is the draft charter public?
14:44:58 <davidwood> Ivan: Not yet
14:45:24 <ivan> q?
14:45:29 <bhyland> a+
14:45:30 <sandro> sandro: It's public access, but not really ready for wide-spread review
14:45:33 <davidwood> The document is public access, but not ready for public review
14:45:36 <bhyland> q+
14:45:41 <ivan> ack bhyland 
14:46:16 <davidwood> Bernadette:  That is a good refinement.  Section 2.1 (LD Profiles) is still unclear.
14:47:21 <sandro> ivan: I expect the mention of OWL will disappear in the next version
14:47:32 <davidwood> Ivan: The eventual charter will probably not mention OWL.
14:47:56 <davidwood> Ivan: Does it make sense to propose another group for LD profiles?
14:47:58 <mhausenblas> Michael: Sandro can you mark http://www.w3.org/2012/01/ldwg-charter.html as DEPRECATED in big bold red letters and provide a link from there to the new version, please?
14:48:20 <davidwood> q+ to ask about a separate group formation
14:48:50 <ivan> ack davidwood 
14:48:50 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to ask about a separate group formation
14:48:51 <mhausenblas> q+ to talk about audience 
14:49:03 <davidwood> It seems to me that the LOD community needs will remain separate from the needs of the enterprise community.
14:49:58 <bhyland> davidwood: The needs of the enterprise (using LD) behind the firewall vs the needs of LOD publishers (on public Web) will remain different.  The line is clear thru the firewall.
14:50:01 <mhausenblas> q?
14:50:14 <mhausenblas> ack me
14:50:14 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to talk about audience
14:50:20 <bhyland> davidwood: Does this activity have the appetite for another WG to focus on these differences?
14:50:31 <davidwood> Ivan: Maybe
14:51:27 <davidwood> Michael: Lots of people care about the public Web, but there is also an enterprise need.  The LDP WG draft charter should focus on the enterprise.
14:52:07 <davidwood> Michael: Should be clear about focus of the group in an "out of scope" section.
14:52:20 <ivan> q?
14:52:39 <bhyland> I appreciate the opportunity to iterate together, thank you.
14:53:06 <davidwood> Topic: Ontology for Media Resources
14:53:26 <davidwood> A Recommendation for Ontology for Media Resources was recently approved.
14:53:34 <davidwood> The chairs could not join us today.
14:53:41 <davidwood> …so we won't discuss.
14:53:51 <davidwood> Topic: AOB
14:54:12 <davidwood> Michael: schema.org extensions should be added to the agenda in two weeks.
14:54:19 <davidwood> ADJOURNED.
14:54:25 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
14:54:26 <Guus> zakim, unmute me
14:54:27 <Zakim> Guus should no longer be muted
14:54:31 <Zakim> -tbaker
14:54:37 <Luc> bye bye
14:54:40 <Zakim> -Bernadette
14:54:42 <Zakim> -pgroth
14:54:43 <Zakim> -Luc
14:54:45 <Zakim> -LeeF
14:54:46 <davidwood> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:54:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/07-swcg-minutes.html davidwood
14:54:47 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
14:55:32 <davidwood> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:58:12 <Guus> q+
14:58:22 <ivan> ack Guus 
15:07:33 <davidwood> …and yet the TriG State proposal has been rather consistent, as has Richard's Dataset proposal.
15:10:34 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal#Semantics
15:10:36 <davidwood> ?
15:10:38 <ivan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Mar/0059.html
15:10:55 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Mar/0038.html
15:21:52 <Guus> I suggest to propose TriG + Pat-Case-1 semantics
15:35:00 <davidwood> +1 to Guus
15:38:34 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:39:22 <sandro> <a> { <s> <p> <o> }
15:40:49 <sandro> <a> log:semantics { <s> <p> <o> }
15:42:35 <sandro> rdf:hadGraph
15:42:57 <sandro> rdf:hasGraph
15:44:39 <sandro> and hasGraph restricts to log:semantics if the subject is .
15:44:42 <sandro> =====
15:45:03 <sandro> { <a> rdf:type rdf:StaticGraphContainer }    <a> { <s> <p> <o> }
15:45:12 <sandro> =====
15:47:22 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs#Typed_Labels
15:52:44 <Zakim> -sandro
15:52:47 <Zakim> -davidwood
15:56:10 <Zakim> -Guus
15:56:12 <Zakim> SW_CG()9:00AM has ended
15:56:14 <Zakim> Attendees were pgroth, Ivan, [IPcaller], Ashok_Malhotra, +1.540.898.aaaa, +1.781.899.aabb, davidwood, sandro, +44.238.059.aacc, Luc, mhausenblas, +1.571.331.aadd, Bernadette,
15:56:18 <Zakim> ... +1.617.553.aaee, LeeF, Guus, tbaker
17:26:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #swcg