IRC log of sparql on 2011-12-19
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:58:13 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #sparql
- 14:58:13 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/19-sparql-irc
- 14:58:15 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 14:58:15 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #sparql
- 14:58:17 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be 77277
- 14:58:17 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see SW_SPARQL(GraphStore HTTP)10:0 scheduled to start in 2 minutes
- 14:58:18 [trackbot]
- Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
- 14:58:18 [trackbot]
- Date: 19 December 2011
- 14:59:07 [sandro]
- Zakim, who is on the call?
- 14:59:07 [Zakim]
- SW_SPARQL(GraphStore HTTP)10:0 has not yet started, sandro
- 14:59:08 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see RRSAgent, AndyS, MacTed, AxelPolleres, swh, kasei, iv_an_ru, trackbot, pgearon, NickH, ya, ericP, sandro
- 14:59:12 [chimezie]
- chimezie has joined #sparql
- 14:59:23 [sandro]
- zakim, what is the code?
- 14:59:23 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sandro
- 14:59:47 [AndyS]
- zakim, start meeting
- 14:59:47 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'start meeting', AndyS
- 14:59:56 [AndyS]
- zakim, this is SPARQL
- 14:59:56 [Zakim]
- ok, AndyS; that matches SW_SPARQL(GraphStore HTTP)10:0
- 15:00:04 [sandro]
- zakim, what is the code?
- 15:00:04 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sandro
- 15:00:17 [AndyS]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 15:00:18 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see no one
- 15:02:16 [AndyS]
- zakim, help
- 15:02:16 [Zakim]
- Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
- 15:02:18 [Zakim]
- Some of the commands I know are:
- 15:02:19 [Zakim]
- xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
- 15:02:22 [Zakim]
- if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
- 15:02:24 [Zakim]
- xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
- 15:02:27 [Zakim]
- I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
- 15:02:29 [Zakim]
- xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
- 15:02:31 [Zakim]
- xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
- 15:02:34 [Zakim]
- who's here? - lists the participants on the phone
- 15:02:37 [Zakim]
- who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted
- 15:02:39 [sandro]
- zakim, who is here?
- 15:02:39 [Zakim]
- mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
- 15:02:41 [Zakim]
- unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
- 15:02:44 [Zakim]
- is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
- 15:02:46 [Zakim]
- list conferences - reports the active conferences
- 15:02:48 [Zakim]
- this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx
- 15:02:50 [Zakim]
- excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel
- 15:02:53 [Zakim]
- I last learned something new on $Date: 2010/03/15 18:49:04 $
- 15:02:57 [Zakim]
- SW_SPARQL(GraphStore HTTP)10:0 has ended
- 15:02:59 [AndyS]
- zakim, list
- 15:02:59 [Zakim]
- Attendees were
- 15:03:01 [Zakim]
- SW_SPARQL(GraphStore HTTP)10:0 has now started
- 15:03:03 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see no one
- 15:03:05 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see chimezie, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, MacTed, AxelPolleres, swh, kasei, iv_an_ru, trackbot, pgearon, NickH, ya, ericP, sandro
- 15:03:10 [Zakim]
- I see SW_SPARQL(GraphStore HTTP)10:0, XML_SchemaW()10:00AM, WF_OGD()10:00AM, SW_HCLS(Disc)10:00AM, MM_MMI(Arch)10:00AM, Team_(PHILIPP)9:30AM, WAI_PFWG(ARIA)10:00AM active
- 15:03:13 [Zakim]
- also scheduled at this time are INC_WEBID(WEBID)10:00AM, Team_(VALID)9:00AM, Team_SysWeb()9:30AM
- 15:03:18 [chimezie]
- ?
- 15:03:27 [sandro]
- zakim, who is on the call?
- 15:03:27 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see no one
- 15:04:20 [AndyS]
- who is here?
- 15:04:22 [AndyS]
- AndyS
- 15:04:25 [kasei]
- Greg
- 15:04:26 [sandro]
- Sandro
- 15:04:28 [chimezie]
- Chime
- 15:04:44 [sandro]
- swh ?
- 15:04:51 [swh]
- I'll have to redial
- 15:04:54 [swh]
- sound problems
- 15:04:57 [swh]
- I can hear you though
- 15:05:15 [swh]
- complicated :)
- 15:06:39 [AndyS]
- scribe: AndyS
- 15:06:45 [AndyS]
- scribenick: AndyS
- 15:07:15 [AndyS]
- Sandro: I think we are hear to talk about my review of the graph store protocol.
- 15:08:02 [AndyS]
- ... and I have concerns with the doc being published.
- 15:08:21 [AndyS]
- ... the chairs wanted consensus for TC tomorrow.
- 15:08:59 [AndyS]
- ... and whole WG approves at TC
- 15:10:46 [AndyS]
- AndyS: I'm OK to publish 2LC as is.
- 15:10:49 [sandro]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011OctDec/0398.html
- 15:11:30 [AndyS]
- sandro: On POST to a graph, then it says the server does a merge.
- 15:11:37 [swh]
- q+
- 15:12:08 [AndyS]
- ... I think that is a problem because lots of things appear as RDF graphs e.g. a collection of graphs
- 15:12:24 [AndyS]
- ... which itself has RDF representation
- 15:13:13 [ericP]
- q+ to say "saying that POSTs to a resource SHOULD append that resource" reduces the applicability to other usage patterns
- 15:13:15 [AndyS]
- chime: would you be language to cover additional things and maybe in SD
- 15:14:55 [AndyS]
- ericP: if no SPARQL endpoint then SPARQL update on a REST-deployment. Certain language suggests don't use POST.
- 15:15:15 [sandro]
- "The group will also define protocol to update RDF graphs using ReSTful methods."
- 15:15:16 [AndyS]
- sandro: concerned applicablity of this document
- 15:15:23 [AndyS]
- q+
- 15:15:37 [ericP]
- q-
- 15:15:46 [sandro]
- ack sandro
- 15:15:49 [sandro]
- ack swh
- 15:16:41 [AndyS]
- swh: We use POST as append and care about this. MAY is not desirable.
- 15:16:43 [sandro]
- ack AndyS
- 15:17:10 [ericP]
- AndyS: what's your disposition of 2626 and its def'n of POST?
- 15:17:41 [ericP]
- sandro: 2626 doesn't restrict POST. i think constraining the semantics of POST should only be applied to certain resources
- 15:18:41 [sandro]
- q?
- 15:18:58 [ericP]
- AndyS: [cites 2616] POST is used for:
- 15:19:02 [ericP]
- ... creating a resource
- 15:19:05 [ericP]
- ... @@1
- 15:19:11 [ericP]
- ... appending a database
- 15:20:19 [AndyS]
- chime: if you target a service, the doc does not say what happens
- 15:20:36 [swh]
- the doc only describes graphs though
- 15:21:21 [AndyS]
- chime: semantics for common case ... could add lang to allow other case
- 15:21:38 [AndyS]
- sandro: I want to target an object on a web
- 15:23:14 [sandro]
- q+ "graph"
- 15:24:36 [AndyS]
- chime: graph container approx RDF content -- "graph container" label is recent
- 15:25:09 [AndyS]
- q?
- 15:25:14 [AndyS]
- ack "graph"
- 15:26:00 [AndyS]
- chime: IRI ids a thing that can emit graphs? What about language to override -- if documented
- 15:26:46 [AndyS]
- ericP: Concrete use case ...
- 15:27:34 [AndyS]
- ... there is a resource for trouble tickets - GET is the list of tickets -POST is add to list.
- 15:27:55 [AndyS]
- q+ to ask if there any POST would not allow.
- 15:28:13 [AndyS]
- ... this is what IBM uses it for (ptr?)
- 15:28:26 [AndyS]
- ... do we want to use this doc to talk about that?
- 15:28:40 [sandro]
- ack AndyS
- 15:28:40 [Zakim]
- AndyS, you wanted to ask if there any POST would not allow.
- 15:28:46 [ericP]
- AndyS
- 15:29:04 [ericP]
- AndyS: in this scheme, is there anything whihc POST would disallow?
- 15:31:23 [ericP]
- POST /hereComesTrouble { [ a :TroubleTicket ; :poster "bob" ; :issue "borken" ] }
- 15:32:04 [ericP]
- -> { <> :myTickets ( <ticket1> <tickiet2> <ticket3> ) . }
- 15:32:17 [AndyS]
- chime: appending to a graph is the mimimal op - I often go outside this for REST-ful APIs
- 15:32:49 [AndyS]
- q+
- 15:32:58 [ericP]
- ... <ticket3Holder> { <ticket3> [ a :TroubleTicket ; :poster "bob" ; :issue "borken" ] }
- 15:33:42 [AndyS]
- q-
- 15:35:07 [swh]
- +1 to ericP, it's all out of band now
- 15:36:46 [AndyS]
- +1 to chime: the GSHP defines XYZ - don't want it => don't claim to use it.
- 15:37:24 [sandro]
- eric: "SHOULD" is there so clients can assume/try it
- 15:37:33 [sandro]
- chime: right
- 15:38:15 [sandro]
- eric: So if one usage has a SHOULD, and people assume/try it, then other users are a SHOULD NOT, which means (1) clients will not try it, and (2) there's a social pressure -- you're not being a good netizen.
- 15:38:20 [AndyS]
- q+ to ask about the scope of the spec.
- 15:38:37 [Zakim]
- restarting irc bot in 1 minute to recover bridge state
- 15:38:45 [sandro]
- chime: What about SHOULD do one thing, MAY do another thing?
- 15:39:11 [sandro]
- eric: What about, "There is a subclass of these, which SHOULD have this behavior"
- 15:39:11 [sandro]
- +1
- 15:39:21 [sandro]
- chime: that makes sense
- 15:39:32 [sandro]
- chime: Some description in SD.
- 15:39:49 [swh]
- q+
- 15:40:06 [kasei]
- q+
- 15:40:18 [sandro]
- eric: anchor in document, a class "Appendable", and maybe make it a MUST. So in the SD someone an say this thing is an Appendable, or this thing creates Appendables.
- 15:40:19 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #sparql
- 15:40:29 [sandro]
- chime: that sounds reasonable to me. Steve?
- 15:40:37 [sandro]
- q?
- 15:40:57 [ericP]
- AndyS: i think it's clear that we're not an RDF version of REST
- 15:41:04 [ericP]
- ... that means POST means append
- 15:41:17 [sandro]
- andy: I think it's clear we're NOT doing an RDF version of rest. We are JUST doing an RDF Graphstore protocol. If you use that, you're buying into these constraints.
- 15:41:19 [ericP]
- ... if you want a behavior, then it's not this protocol
- 15:41:32 [sandro]
- andy: If you want a different set of features, then don't claim conformance to this spec.
- 15:41:35 [sandro]
- -1 Andy
- 15:41:50 [sandro]
- (er, not Andy himself. +1 Andy. -1 Andy to the view)
- 15:42:14 [sandro]
- andy: These scenarios keep coming up that are hypothetical.
- 15:42:16 [sandro]
- q?
- 15:42:19 [sandro]
- q+
- 15:42:33 [sandro]
- andy: It seems useful document that "for a graphstore, it means append"
- 15:42:41 [sandro]
- eric: But it comes in a big package deal.
- 15:43:01 [sandro]
- eric: Can this document be repurposed for the trouble ticket scenario, with SPARQL update, date.
- 15:43:15 [sandro]
- chime: If you assume we're not targetting "RDF Graph Content" then yse.
- 15:44:01 [sandro]
- andy: Just because it has a representation as an RDF graph, doesn't mean this document applies to it.
- 15:44:14 [sandro]
- sandro: I so disagree
- 15:44:28 [sandro]
- andy: It seems like you're trying to put other ideas.
- 15:45:09 [sandro]
- "It should be possible to manipulate RDF graphs using HTTP verbs, notably PUT, POST and DELETE. By this, clients doesn't need to know the SPARQL language to update graphs when it is not needed. "
- 15:45:44 [sandro]
- andy: There's a Web Application working group. Isn't this trouble ticket system a Web Application.
- 15:46:12 [sandro]
- (nonsense. by that argument, the SPARQL Protocol could be done by the Web Apps WG.)
- 15:47:27 [AndyS]
- q-
- 15:49:40 [AndyS]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2011Jun/0000.html
- 15:52:45 [swh]
- q+
- 15:53:50 [sandro]
- q-
- 15:57:32 [sandro]
- ack swh
- 15:59:13 [sandro]
- sandro: So, Steve, your opinion is that this document doesn't apply to other folks doing REST+RDF.
- 15:59:40 [swh]
- Zakim, who's speaking?
- 15:59:40 [Zakim]
- sorry, swh, I don't know what conference this is
- 15:59:52 [sandro]
- zakim, this is sparql
- 15:59:52 [Zakim]
- ok, sandro; that matches SW_SPARQL(GraphStore HTTP)10:0
- 15:59:52 [AndyS]
- zakim, this is 77277
- 15:59:53 [Zakim]
- AndyS, this was already SW_SPARQL(GraphStore HTTP)10:0
- 15:59:55 [Zakim]
- ok, AndyS; that matches SW_SPARQL(GraphStore HTTP)10:0
- 16:00:03 [sandro]
- zakim, who is taking?
- 16:00:03 [Zakim]
- I don't understand your question, sandro.
- 16:00:53 [swh]
- Zakim, who's speaking?
- 16:01:04 [Zakim]
- swh, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.617.324.aaaa (55%)
- 16:01:51 [kasei]
- q+ to ask how you "self identify" as a member of this class
- 16:02:02 [swh]
- +1 to kasei's q, I don't get that
- 16:02:16 [sandro]
- eric: PROPOSAL: We identify a class of resources for whom POST = graph merge, and for those resources it's a MUST. Then we let people use some out-of-band mechanism to indicate what resources are in that class.
- 16:02:25 [AndyS]
- Is it not that lable "graph container"?
- 16:03:01 [sandro]
- eric: ... because the rest of this document applies to a broader set of resources.
- 16:04:02 [sandro]
- sandro: No, we need to leave POST open.
- 16:05:07 [sandro]
- entend until 0:20
- 16:05:09 [sandro]
- extend
- 16:05:24 [sandro]
- (20 after the hour)
- 16:06:27 [sandro]
- eric: definitons, the commonsense mapping of REST to RDF, with semantics of POST = graph merge.
- 16:07:15 [sandro]
- eric: how about the rest of the document talk about RDF Resoruces in general, then this section say there is a subset which are POST=append resource. And none of that is tied to it being a sparql graphstore.
- 16:07:46 [sandro]
- chime: not all those things are paired with a graph in the dataset of a graph store
- 16:08:23 [AndyS]
- +1 to Chime. Leave for LDP-WG? RDF-WG?
- 16:10:43 [ericP]
- Note that this section applies only to the application of POST to RDF graph content. other ...
- 16:10:53 [AndyS]
- This doc does not apply to "data-handling process" (a phrase from RFC 2616)
- 16:10:56 [sandro]
- chime: This behavior of POST would only apply when the target is RDF graph content [ SOmething that leaves it open for Eric's use case ]
- 16:11:18 [sandro]
- eric: and strengten this to a MOST.
- 16:11:21 [sandro]
- MUST
- 16:11:40 [AndyS]
- i.e. not applying to "Providing a block of data to a data-handling process."
- 16:12:52 [sandro]
- sandro: so "POST MUST be understand as merge, unless this is a data handling process"
- 16:13:05 [sandro]
- andy: "extending a database through an append opperation"
- 16:13:38 [sandro]
- so, POST MUST be understood if this is the kind of resource for which POST mean appending ...
- 16:14:02 [sandro]
- andy: "graph container"
- 16:14:09 [sandro]
- sandro: would need "only"
- 16:15:59 [kasei]
- q?
- 16:21:03 [Zakim]
- - +1.781.899.aabb
- 16:21:40 [Zakim]
- - +1.617.324.aaaa
- 16:22:18 [kasei]
- ack kasei
- 16:22:18 [Zakim]
- kasei, you wanted to ask how you "self identify" as a member of this class
- 16:25:07 [AndyS]
- zakim, who is on the call?
- 16:25:07 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ??P1, [IPcaller], kasei, +1.216.368.aacc
- 16:25:27 [AndyS]
- zakim, IPcaller is me
- 16:25:27 [Zakim]
- +AndyS; got it
- 16:27:24 [AndyS]
- /rdf-graphs/service?graph=... ==> /graphstore?graph=...
- 16:28:03 [swh]
- I have to go guys. bye
- 16:28:06 [Zakim]
- -??P1
- 16:28:54 [AndyS]
- Suggested: RDF Graph Content ==> RDF Graph Container
- 16:28:58 [AndyS]
- Suggested: RDF Graph Content ==> Graph Container
- 16:29:32 [AndyS]
- (to follow recent RDF-WG terminology)
- 16:30:10 [Zakim]
- - +1.216.368.aacc
- 16:30:12 [Zakim]
- -AndyS
- 16:30:15 [Zakim]
- -kasei
- 16:30:16 [Zakim]
- SW_SPARQL(GraphStore HTTP)10:0 has ended
- 16:30:18 [Zakim]
- Attendees were +1.617.324.aaaa, +1.781.899.aabb, kasei, +1.216.368.aacc, AndyS
- 16:31:08 [kasei]
- I don't think that makes nearly as much sense, sandro.
- 16:32:42 [sandro]
- *shrug* Okay, yeah, graphstore?graph= is okay, I guess. Certainly better than service?graph=
- 16:37:09 [AndyS]
- sandro - it is not a SPARQL endpoint (either kind) - that is, I think, the source of the confusion.
- 16:37:36 [AndyS]
- endpoint is a (XML) web services concept (WSDL)
- 16:37:52 [AndyS]
- and also a more general, non web concept.
- 16:38:05 [AndyS]
- e.g. telecoms
- 16:52:33 [AndyS]
- swh - kasei has noticed that all <cite> cause no link to be generated.
- 16:52:55 [AndyS]
- Even if inside <a href=></a> then <cite> does not reach HTML.
- 16:53:53 [AndyS]
- Propose to de-<cite> the whole doc.
- 16:54:09 [AndyS]
- ericP?
- 16:54:37 [kasei]
- AndyS: any thoughts on how I should link "current version" for SPARQL docs when we don't yet have a pubdate?
- 16:54:44 [kasei]
- or is that something I leave for the pub process?
- 16:55:07 [AndyS]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/ -- the TR undated is "latest"
- 16:55:49 [kasei]
- right. but some of the refs use the "current [at time of publication] version" link.
- 16:55:57 [kasei]
- (the dated-URI version)
- 16:56:50 [AndyS]
- Not sure of the best thing to do - needs fix up in pub process.
- 16:57:10 [kasei]
- maybe I'll just leave the link distinction off for now, and sort it out in pub process.
- 16:57:13 [kasei]
- thanks
- 16:59:41 [ericP]
- AndyS, i had to go to another call
- 17:00:37 [ericP]
- AndyS, the goal is to make the editors' drafts as machine-checkable as possible?
- 17:01:01 [ericP]
- yeah, leave that out
- 17:01:15 [ericP]
- team contact will fix up the header
- 17:02:58 [ericP]
- so e.g. /TR/2011/wd-sparql11-2011-12-25/ needs to reference /TR/2011/wd-sparql-update-2011-12-25/ without knowning "12-25" yet?
- 17:07:48 [kasei]
- ericP: yes, that was the question.
- 17:10:07 [kasei]
- AndyS: we've agreed to the changes in escaping and encoding in qnames, right? I assume there's need for new syntax tests?
- 17:11:01 [ericP]
- for multi-doc suites, editors frequently count on xml-spec or some new JS thing which i forget the name of
- 17:11:44 [AndyS]
- Ideally. Not by tomorrow though. I am uncomfortable with skipping CR for exactly this sort of issue - not doing what is needed because of mistakes. And anyway, graph store protocol now can't skip CR IMHO.
- 17:11:47 [ericP]
- but if you pick a date, the team contact can grep for it and be pretty confident that he's gotton the links which need updating
- 17:11:55 [AndyS]
- respec.js
- 17:12:01 [ericP]
- yeah, that
- 17:12:22 [AndyS]
- neither addresses greg's issue of coord.
- 17:12:59 [AndyS]
- (well, not as far as I have found)
- 17:14:29 [chimezie]
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- 17:27:37 [kasei]
- AndyS: does ARQ dev support the new qname syntax?
- 17:27:49 [AndyS]
- yes
- 17:27:56 [kasei]
- I believe my impl does, but would like something else to test against if I try to crank out some tests.
- 17:28:04 [kasei]
- great
- 17:31:16 [chimezie_]
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- 19:57:24 [alessandro]
- is it possible in regex for the pattern to be of the form "?a" ?
- 20:02:07 [chimezie_]
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- 22:05:43 [AndyS]
- alessandro - if you mean regex(?var, ?pattern) yes (it's just three args to regex -- normal args, inc ?v) - if you mean regex(?var, "Something|?pattern") then no -- no substituion into the pattern.
- 22:07:30 [alessandro_]
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