IRC log of rdfa on 2011-07-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:51:07 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
13:51:07 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/21-rdfa-irc
13:51:09 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #rdfa
13:51:09 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:51:09 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdfa
13:51:11 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7332
13:51:11 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
13:51:12 [trackbot]
Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
13:51:12 [trackbot]
Date: 21 July 2011
13:51:14 [lindstream]
lindstream has joined #rdfa
13:52:51 [SebastianGermesin]
I still need to figure out how to call in using sip... but at another time...
13:54:16 [Zakim]
SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
13:54:24 [Zakim]
+ +44.123.456.aaaa
13:54:33 [SebastianGermesin]
zakim, i am aaaa
13:54:34 [Zakim]
+SebastianGermesin; got it
13:57:35 [Zakim]
+??P5
13:57:53 [gkellogg]
zakim, +??P5 is gkellogg
13:57:53 [Zakim]
sorry, gkellogg, I do not recognize a party named '+??P5'
13:57:54 [Zakim]
+??P6
13:58:05 [gkellogg]
zakim, i am +??P5
13:58:05 [Zakim]
sorry, gkellogg, I do not see a party named '+??P5'
13:58:08 [Zakim]
+scor
13:58:19 [manu1]
zakim, who is on the call?
13:58:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see SebastianGermesin, ??P5, ??P6, scor
13:58:22 [gkellogg]
zakim, i am ??P5
13:58:23 [Zakim]
+gkellogg; got it
13:58:32 [tomayac]
tomayac has joined #rdfa
13:58:41 [lindstream]
zakim, I am +??P6
13:58:41 [Zakim]
sorry, lindstream, I do not see a party named '+??P6'
13:58:55 [Zakim]
+??P12
13:59:00 [manu1]
zakim, I am ??P12
13:59:00 [Zakim]
+manu1; got it
13:59:08 [lindstream]
zakim, I am ??P6
13:59:09 [Zakim]
+lindstream; got it
13:59:20 [scor]
scor has joined #rdfa
13:59:51 [scor]
zakim, who is on the phone
13:59:51 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', scor
13:59:58 [scor]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:59:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see SebastianGermesin, gkellogg, lindstream, scor, manu1
14:00:33 [gkellogg]
scribe: gkellogg
14:00:46 [Zakim]
+Steven
14:00:48 [Zakim]
+OpenLink_Software
14:00:53 [Zakim]
+ +3539149aabb
14:00:55 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
14:00:55 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
14:00:57 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
14:00:57 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
14:01:01 [Knud]
Knud has joined #rdfa
14:01:19 [Steven]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:01:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see SebastianGermesin, gkellogg, lindstream, scor, manu1, Steven, MacTed (muted), +3539149aabb
14:01:27 [Knud]
zakim, I am +aabb
14:01:27 [Zakim]
sorry, Knud, I do not see a party named '+aabb'
14:01:30 [Zakim]
+??P34
14:01:35 [Knud]
zakim, I am aabb
14:01:41 [Zakim]
+tomayac
14:01:50 [Zakim]
+Knud; got it
14:01:55 [ShaneM]
zakim, I am ??P34
14:01:57 [Knud]
zakim, mute me
14:02:13 [Zakim]
+ShaneM; got it
14:02:17 [Zakim]
Knud should now be muted
14:02:31 [gkellogg]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/Scribing.html
14:03:26 [manu1]
zakim, who is on the call?
14:03:39 [Zakim]
+ +358.405.25aacc
14:03:39 [scor]
scribe: scor
14:03:43 [manu1]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/0042.html
14:03:49 [bergie]
zakim, I am aacc
14:03:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see SebastianGermesin, gkellogg, lindstream, scor, manu1, Steven, MacTed (muted), Knud (muted), ShaneM, tomayac, +358.405.25aacc
14:04:03 [bergie]
zakim, mute me
14:04:22 [Zakim]
+bergie; got it
14:04:22 [Steven]
agenda?
14:04:31 [Zakim]
bergie should now be muted
14:05:03 [Steven]
http://www.doodle.com/87nkyax5q5bma698#table
14:05:15 [scor_]
scor_ has joined #rdfa
14:05:20 [scor]
manu1: any change to the agenda?
14:05:53 [Knud]
oops
14:06:25 [Knud]
I did it the other way round
14:06:38 [Knud]
But I corrected it now
14:07:35 [scor_]
manu1: everyone ok for having a call on Aug 4th?
14:07:36 [bergie]
I *may* be able to join Aug 4th, but not sure
14:07:53 [scor_]
manu1: Aug 4th is the only con which might be cancelled
14:08:34 [scor_]
Topic: structured-data.org update
14:09:14 [scor_]
http://linter.structured-data.org/
14:09:17 [manu1]
I owe you guys a front-page...
14:09:18 [gkellogg]
Linter: http://linter.structured-data.org/
14:10:10 [scor_]
scor_: hope to launch early next week
14:10:53 [scor_]
gkellogg: mimic google rich snippets. schema.org is todo, plus other schemas like FOAF, SIOC
14:11:13 [scor_]
manu1: fantastic to work on that, should be beneficial for lots of people
14:11:53 [scor_]
manu1: we want to get whatwg and microformats folks, but not been successful so far (missed them on IRC)
14:12:26 [tomayac]
ok w/ me
14:12:35 [bergie]
looks good
14:12:35 [scor_]
manu1: any concerns with including other groups? and launch early next week anyways?
14:13:11 [scor_]
gkellogg: we don't have microformats now (no parser available). if anyone has pointers to parser (XSLT maybe)
14:13:19 [scor_]
manu1: not much available
14:13:55 [scor_]
Topic: schema.org
14:14:23 [scor_]
manu1: Ben Adida had conversation with Google folks. he is hopeful they could include a subset of RDFa 1.1 in schema.org
14:14:48 [Steven]
s/manu1: Ben Adida had conversation with Google folks. he is hopeful they could include a subset of RDFa 1.1 in schema.org//
14:14:54 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:14:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/21-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
14:15:26 [Steven]
Chair: Manu
14:15:53 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:15:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/21-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
14:16:55 [gkellogg]
q+
14:18:27 [ShaneM]
q+
14:18:37 [manu1]
ack gkellogg
14:18:49 [gkellogg]
Topic with Hixie comment: https://plus.google.com/u/0/115203359751471044302/posts/92VKitpppB4
14:18:59 [scor_]
manu1: the RDF conversion steps could be removed the RDF processing rules from the microdata specs
14:19:34 [bergie]
q+
14:19:42 [ShaneM]
ack ShaneM
14:19:51 [manu1]
ack bergie
14:19:51 [bergie]
zakim, unmute me
14:19:54 [Zakim]
bergie was not muted, bergie
14:20:25 [scor_]
bergie: if the RDF processing were to be removed from microdata, we would end up with 2 separate formats
14:20:36 [bergie]
zakim, mute me
14:20:36 [Zakim]
bergie should now be muted
14:20:37 [lindstream]
q+
14:20:38 [scor_]
bergie: then would people both with RDFa at all?
14:20:45 [scor_]
s/both/bother
14:21:26 [manu1]
zakim, who is making noise?
14:21:37 [Zakim]
manu1, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: lindstream (46%), scor (15%)
14:21:43 [bergie]
the advantage for microdata not being RDF would of course be clarity: you do schema.org microdata only for SEO, RDFa for being linked data
14:22:06 [ShaneM]
I do agree that if microdata stops having an RDF mapping it would be a good thing
14:22:13 [scor_]
lindstream: could there be one monolithic format for schema.org as a subset of RDFa 1.1?
14:23:24 [scor_]
manu1: if the RDF steps are removed from microdata, this might be enough to avoid forming the TF.
14:23:59 [scor_]
manu1: but then, there would be no reason for people to implement RDFa because it's more complex, and not necessary for SEO
14:25:21 [lindstream]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/0048.html
14:25:23 [manu1]
Topic: Alternate @profile proposals
14:26:33 [scor_]
lindstream: profiles are complex. primary suggestion is to move mapping of terms to a semantic level
14:26:53 [scor_]
lindstream: use the vocab attr only. and instead describe vocabularies which import other terms
14:27:14 [scor_]
lindstream: like schema.org and ogp, they define every single term that they think people will need
14:28:07 [scor_]
lindstream: it's vocabulary design, as opposed to embeding vocab definitions in RDFa
14:28:20 [scor_]
lindstream: markup would look more like microdata
14:28:28 [manu1]
q+
14:28:33 [manu1]
ack lindstream
14:29:07 [scor_]
manu1: at the time, we didn't see problems or any danger with profiles
14:29:43 [tomayac]
looking at your gist, lindstream: https://gist.github.com/1092350
14:29:50 [lindstream]
q+
14:30:05 [scor_]
manu1: in your email, you provide a mechanism to define terms. solution #2 is interesting for the RDF people (the rest don't care because it's close to microdata syntax)
14:30:37 [manu1]
ack manu1
14:31:00 [tomayac]
is this something like inlined grddl?
14:32:35 [gkellogg]
q+
14:32:37 [scor_]
lindstream: solution #2 specifies a new emerging pattern for the semantic web (broader than RDFa)
14:32:50 [scor_]
lindstream: great value in linking terms from your vocabs to other vocabs
14:33:38 [scor_]
lindstream: defining this mapping vocabulary is for the benefit of the general RDF community
14:33:40 [manu1]
ack lindstream
14:33:53 [gkellogg]
http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#RDFSRules
14:34:50 [lindstream]
q+
14:34:57 [scor_]
gkellogg: some of the RDFS entailment rules would accomplish the same thing. we could generate a subset vocab for class and properties.
14:34:59 [manu1]
ack gkellogg
14:35:45 [scor_]
lindstream: good point, will include that in my next email. chicken and egg: you produce triples intended to be remapped, which won't be remapped until other use the same mechanism
14:36:34 [scor_]
manu1: there were a few concerns about remove profiles
14:36:46 [scor_]
s/remove/removing
14:36:54 [lindstream]
q+
14:37:08 [scor_]
manu1: people who want to keep profiles are ShaneM and the ePub folks
14:37:12 [manu1]
ack lindstream
14:37:59 [scor_]
lindstream: I looked at the ePub spec, it didn't seem too tricky to tweak their work and avoid profiles, and use vocab instead. I will look at that.
14:38:22 [lindstream]
q+
14:38:38 [manu1]
ack lindstream
14:38:50 [scor_]
manu1: negative: the initial RDF graph you get from the RDFa is not as complete as the one you would using RDFS
14:41:07 [scor_]
lindstream: from asking people to reference multiple vocabs in your page, we ask them to reference these other vocabs via an intermediary vocabulary (defined according to the mapping mecahnism)
14:41:12 [lindstream]
q+
14:41:23 [manu1]
ack lindstream
14:42:17 [scor_]
manu1: what are you thouhts ShaneM ?
14:42:59 [scor_]
ShaneM: I've sent an email about my concerns. main point: there has to be a way for authors what they mean to say when using a term
14:43:07 [gkellogg]
q+
14:43:23 [manu1]
1. Why is waiting for all @profile documents to load and then proceeding a bad thing? What makes it technically challenging to implement in a browser?
14:43:25 [manu1]
2. Is there an announcement mechanism for RDFa Core 1.1? We removed @version and pseudo-replaced it with @profile. Do we need to re-introduce @version? If we don't do this, an RDFa 2.0 processor may accidentally corrupt the intent of an RDFa 1.1 document.
14:43:28 [manu1]
ack gkellogg
14:44:05 [scor_]
gkellogg: re relying on another mapping document. the original reason for this discussion is the need to load the profile during the parsing of the HTML document.
14:44:08 [manu1]
q+
14:44:11 [manu1]
ack manu1
14:45:37 [lindstream]
q+
14:46:08 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
14:46:08 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
14:46:11 [scor_]
gkellogg: if you have the need to operate on the inferred triples, you still have a (weaker) dependency on the vocabulary
14:46:19 [MacTed]
q+
14:46:27 [manu1]
ack lindstream
14:47:13 [scor_]
MacTed: there has to be external dependencies no matter what, which have to be dereferenced later
14:47:32 [MacTed]
q-
14:47:32 [gkellogg]
q+
14:47:35 [manu1]
ack MacTed
14:48:02 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
14:48:02 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
14:48:22 [scor_]
lindstream: main point: these dependencies are on the semantic level, not at the parsing level. might break when using the follow your noise, but we always have triple we can operate on
14:49:22 [Steven]
s/noise/nose/
14:50:02 [manu1]
ack gkellogg
14:50:32 [scor_]
gkellogg: this mechanism processing rules and remove dependencies during that processing
14:50:44 [mike_english]
mike_english has joined #rdfa
14:51:04 [scor_]
manu1: right, it does not remove the need to do follow your nose, but it puts in a the background, and people who want to use it can just do it
14:51:44 [gkellogg]
q+
14:51:45 [ShaneM]
q+ to ask about follow your nose
14:51:57 [manu1]
ack gkellogg
14:52:14 [lindstream]
q+
14:52:20 [manu1]
ack shanem
14:52:20 [Zakim]
ShaneM, you wanted to ask about follow your nose
14:52:29 [scor_]
gkellogg: if we do use something like RDFS, the original statement does not get erased, it gets added
14:53:08 [manu1]
ack lindstream
14:53:18 [scor_]
manu1: does this RDFa API handle the RDFS rules ?
14:55:27 [manu1]
STRAW POLL: Drop @profile as it is defined now, and replace it with Niklas' @vocab proposal (#2 item in his e-mail - proxy vocabularies)
14:55:49 [manu1]
+1
14:55:51 [gkellogg]
+1
14:55:51 [SebastianGermesin]
+1
14:55:52 [Steven]
+0
14:55:53 [lindstream]
+1
14:55:54 [bergie]
+1
14:55:54 [scor_]
+1
14:55:57 [tomayac]
0 (no opinion really)
14:56:05 [ShaneM]
+0
14:56:07 [Knud]
+1
14:56:55 [MacTed]
+0 insufficiently considered for me to decide
14:57:10 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
14:57:10 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
14:57:31 [lindstream]
q+
14:57:32 [scor_]
manu1: looks like a consensus, but we should ask other groups like IPTC and Facebook
14:57:40 [manu1]
ack lindstream
14:57:56 [scor_]
lindstream: we should consider the proposal #1
14:58:59 [scor_]
manu1: Nathan said it was not possible in RDFa, but I can't recall his reasoning....
14:59:20 [lindstream]
q+
14:59:21 [manu1]
prefix="title: http://purl.org/dc/terms/title">http://purl.org/dc/terms/title dc: http://purl.org/dc/terms/"
14:59:53 [manu1]
property="title" or property="dc:title"
14:59:58 [Zakim]
-MacTed
15:00:01 [manu1]
ack lindstream
15:00:21 [ShaneM]
prefix=":title http://purl.org/dc/terms/title">http://purl.org/dc/terms/title dc: http://purl.org/dc/terms/"
15:00:30 [lindstream]
prefix=":title http://purl.org/dc/terms/title">http://purl.org/dc/terms/title dc: http://purl.org/dc/terms/"
15:01:04 [scor_]
manu1: can't we remove the : in the prefix list?
15:03:27 [Zakim]
-gkellogg
15:03:31 [Zakim]
-Steven
15:03:33 [Zakim]
-manu1
15:03:36 [Zakim]
-SebastianGermesin
15:03:38 [Zakim]
-tomayac
15:03:39 [Zakim]
-scor
15:03:41 [Zakim]
-bergie
15:03:43 [Zakim]
-Knud
15:03:49 [Zakim]
-ShaneM
15:04:03 [Zakim]
-lindstream
15:04:05 [Zakim]
SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
15:04:07 [Zakim]
Attendees were +44.123.456.aaaa, SebastianGermesin, scor, gkellogg, manu1, lindstream, Steven, +3539149aabb, MacTed, tomayac, Knud, ShaneM, +358.405.25aacc, bergie
15:07:30 [MacTed]
wasn't me talking about @role, no...
15:07:52 [scor_]
manu1: you'll have to fill in re @role issue
15:08:03 [manu1]
That was Shane, got it, thx
15:09:13 [lindstream]
lindstream has left #rdfa
15:12:16 [SebastianGermesin]
SebastianGermesin has left #rdfa
16:02:33 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #rdfa
16:06:53 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has left #rdfa
17:23:11 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdfa
18:15:28 [manu1]
rrsagent, bye
18:15:28 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items