15:39:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
15:39:27 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-rdb2rdf-irc
15:39:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:39:29 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
15:39:31 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
15:39:31 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 21 minutes
15:39:32 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:39:32 <trackbot> Date: 14 June 2011
15:40:02 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Jun/0051.html
15:40:07 <mhausenblas> Chair: Michael
15:40:16 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:40:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:40:21 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent make logs public
15:53:35 <boris> boris has joined #rdb2rdf
15:54:40 <ivan> ivan has joined #rdb2rdf
15:54:46 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
15:54:54 <Zakim> + +3539149aaaa
15:54:58 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
15:54:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see +3539149aaaa
15:55:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see ivan, boris, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, iv_an_ru_, betehess, cygri, trackbot
15:55:04 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:55:04 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
15:55:13 <mhausenblas> present+ Michael
15:55:20 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:55:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:55:46 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #rdb2rdf
15:57:03 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:57:03 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:57:04 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:57:18 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
15:57:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, Ivan
15:57:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see Ashok, ivan, boris, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, iv_an_ru_, betehess, cygri, trackbot
15:57:20 <LeeF> LeeF has joined #rdb2rdf
15:58:03 <cygri_> cygri_ has joined #rdb2rdf
15:58:09 <privera> privera has joined #RDB2RDF
15:58:42 <cygri_> zakim, i'm with mhausenblas
15:58:42 <Zakim> +cygri_; got it
15:58:52 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
15:58:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, Ivan
15:58:53 <Zakim> mhausenblas has cygri_
15:58:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see privera, cygri_, LeeF, Ashok, ivan, boris, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, iv_an_ru_, betehess, cygri, trackbot
15:59:55 <Zakim> + +49.153.6.aabb
15:59:55 <Zakim> +??P10
16:00:10 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aabb is boris 
16:00:10 <Zakim> +boris; got it
16:00:19 <privera> Zakim, mute me
16:00:19 <Zakim> sorry, privera, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:00:23 <mhausenblas> Zakim, P10 is privera 
16:00:23 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I do not recognize a party named 'P10'
16:00:28 <mhausenblas> Zakim, ??P10 is privera 
16:00:28 <Zakim> +privera; got it
16:00:37 <privera> Zakim, mute me
16:00:37 <Zakim> privera should now be muted
16:00:40 <mhausenblas> scribenick: ivan 
16:00:48 <ivan> scribe: ivan
16:00:49 <mhausenblas> present+ Boris
16:00:50 <Zakim> + +1.781.273.aacc
16:00:58 <mhausenblas> present+ Percy
16:00:59 <MacTed> Zakim, aacc is OpenLink_Software
16:00:59 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
16:01:04 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aacc is MacTed 
16:01:04 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
16:01:12 <dmcneil> dmcneil has joined #RDB2RDF
16:01:24 <ivan> zakim, OpenLink_Software is MacTed
16:01:24 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:01:24 <mhausenblas> present+ Ted
16:01:31 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's around?
16:01:31 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, mhausenblas.
16:01:35 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:01:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, Ivan, boris, privera (muted), MacTed
16:01:36 <Zakim> mhausenblas has cygri_
16:01:36 <MacTed> Zakim, MacTed is OpenLink_Software
16:01:36 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:01:37 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
16:01:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see dmcneil, privera, cygri, LeeF, Ashok, ivan, boris, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, iv_an_ru_, betehess, trackbot
16:01:39 <MacTed> :-)
16:01:40 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's working?
16:01:41 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:01:43 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, mhausenblas.
16:01:54 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
16:02:02 <mhausenblas> present+ Ashok
16:02:05 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:02:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, Ivan, boris, privera (muted), MacTed, Ashok_Malhotra
16:02:08 <Zakim> mhausenblas has cygri_
16:02:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see dmcneil, privera, cygri, LeeF, Ashok, ivan, boris, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, iv_an_ru_, betehess, trackbot
16:02:37 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Marcelo
16:03:05 <Zakim> + +1.314.394.aadd
16:03:16 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aadd is dmcneil 
16:03:16 <Zakim> +dmcneil; got it
16:03:21 <mhausenblas> present+ David
16:03:28 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:03:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, Ivan, boris, privera (muted), MacTed, Ashok_Malhotra, dmcneil
16:03:30 <Zakim> mhausenblas has cygri_
16:03:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see dmcneil, privera, cygri, LeeF, Ashok, ivan, boris, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, iv_an_ru_, betehess, trackbot
16:03:39 <Seema> Seema has joined #rdb2rdf
16:03:45 <nunolopes> nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF
16:03:55 <mhausenblas> Zakim, nunolopes is with mhausenblas 
16:03:55 <Zakim> +nunolopes; got it
16:04:14 <ericP> ericP has joined #rdb2rdf
16:04:19 <ivan> topic: admin stuff
16:04:21 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
16:04:21 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
16:04:22 <Zakim> +EricP
16:04:27 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: Accept the minutes of last meeting http://www.w3.org/2011/05/31-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:05:06 <ivan> mhausenblas: any comment on the minutes?
16:05:07 <ivan> ....
16:05:09 <ivan> ....
16:05:11 <ivan> ....
16:05:24 <ivan> RESOLVED: Accept the minutes of last meeting http://www.w3.org/2011/05/31-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:05:30 <ivan> topic: semtech debrief
16:05:39 <ivan> mhausenblas: who wants to start
16:05:46 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaee
16:05:53 <ivan> dmcneil: i made a talk on r2rml and spider
16:05:55 <Zakim> +Alexandre
16:05:57 <ivan> ... fairly full room
16:05:59 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaff
16:06:00 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:06:02 <ivan> ... well received
16:06:13 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaee is Seema 
16:06:13 <Zakim> +Seema; got it
16:06:20 <juansequeda> juansequeda has joined #rdb2rdf
16:06:25 <mhausenblas> present+ Seema
16:06:27 <ericP> Zakim, aaff is Souri 
16:06:27 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
16:06:33 <mhausenblas> present+ Souri
16:06:38 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:06:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, Ivan, boris, privera (muted), MacTed, Ashok_Malhotra, dmcneil, EricP, Seema, Alexandre, Souri
16:06:40 <Zakim> mhausenblas has cygri_, nunolopes
16:06:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see juansequeda, Souri, ericP, nunolopes, Seema, dmcneil, privera, cygri, LeeF, Ashok, ivan, boris, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, iv_an_ru_, betehess, trackbot
16:06:43 <ivan> dmcneil: there were several questions, people followed along with the ideas
16:06:57 <ivan> ... the pressing question was the question i posted on the mailing list
16:07:03 <Zakim> + +575737aagg
16:07:03 <ivan> ... how to code a uri as a resource
16:07:08 <juansequeda> Zakim, aagg is me
16:07:08 <Zakim> +juansequeda; got it
16:07:15 <ivan> ... i got questions on the representation of the mapping itself,
16:07:19 <mhausenblas> present+ Juan
16:07:24 <ivan> ... some people pushed back on the verbosity of turtle
16:07:34 <ivan> ... one gentleman proposed a specific syntax for the mapping
16:07:42 <mhausenblas> Michael: Enrico just send the following to the WG list: "Still stuck on the train with an horrible delay. I can't make it on time :-("
16:07:42 <ivan> Ashok: what sort of syntax?
16:07:52 <ivan> dmcneil: data represntation, concise to r2rml
16:07:55 <ivan> ... and translate that
16:07:55 <betehess> funny enough, ericP just posted a abstract model this morning
16:08:20 <ivan> s/represntation/representation/
16:08:20 <Zakim> +LeeF
16:08:25 <mhausenblas> present+ Lee
16:08:29 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:08:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, Ivan, boris, privera (muted), MacTed, Ashok_Malhotra, dmcneil, EricP, Seema, Alexandre, Souri, juansequeda, LeeF
16:08:30 <ivan> juansequeda: was good to see the state of sw technologies
16:08:32 <Zakim> mhausenblas has cygri_, nunolopes
16:08:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see juansequeda, Souri, ericP, nunolopes, Seema, dmcneil, privera, cygri, LeeF, Ashok, ivan, boris, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, iv_an_ru_, betehess, trackbot
16:08:44 <ivan> ... i realized that people see that they need rdb to rdf
16:08:51 <ivan> ... eg people from golden sachs
16:09:02 <ivan> ... people from big it companies are waiting for us
16:09:12 <ivan> mhausenblas: anyone else to report
16:10:00 <mhausenblas> Ivan: Cray has a big offering re iron
16:10:11 <ericP> dmcneil, here's a concrete syntax based on the example at the top of the r2rml spec: http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/R2RML?lang=perl&markup=html#prod-R2RML-R2RML_Mapping
16:10:24 <ericP> (that'd different from the abstract syntax)
16:10:59 <ivan> mhausenblas: any other reports regarding semtech
16:13:47 <ivan> mhausenblas: we should, in general, report when a wg member is at an event, conference, etc
16:13:54 <ivan> ... use that to collect feedback
16:14:02 <ivan> ... getting to last call needs that
16:14:14 <ivan> topic: action items
16:14:26 <Zakim> -juansequeda
16:14:29 <ivan> mhausenblas: should we go through the action items or jump on the issues
16:14:52 <ivan> ... i know the enrico is delayed, but he may join us later 
16:15:02 <ivan> ... i would propose to start with issue 22
16:15:10 <Zakim> +juansequeda
16:15:22 <Souri> q+
16:15:33 <ivan> topic: issue 22
16:15:37 <ivan> issue-22?
16:15:37 <trackbot> ISSUE-22 -- Support for database vendor specific SQL statements. -- open
16:15:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/22
16:15:47 <mhausenblas> ack Souri 
16:15:52 <mhausenblas> q?
16:16:07 <ivan> Souri: i was going to make a comment on issue 18, I have started to update the document on the resolution of that one, should be done for next week
16:16:38 <ivan> mhausenblas: so, issue 22, who can help?
16:16:51 <ivan> ... dmcneil, you brought this up?
16:17:03 <cygri> Proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011May/0179.html
16:17:03 <ivan> action-133?
16:17:03 <trackbot> ACTION-133 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to write proposal for issue-22 -- due 2011-06-07 -- OPEN
16:17:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/133
16:17:29 <ivan> ericP: the prudent way of handling mine is to see a resolution on whether we flag an extended sql with anything
16:17:40 <ivan> ... we have some use to flag an extension with an identifier
16:17:56 <ivan> ... the debate is whether we want to flag extensions in the first place
16:18:10 <ivan> mhausenblas: what is the issue you are referring to>
16:18:16 <ivan> dmcneil: i think that is issue 22
16:18:45 <ivan> ericP: the metaissue is that if we have a syntax to distinquish between sql 2009 or an sql with vendor specific
16:19:06 <ivan> ... if we have a flag for that, I have a syntax to do that
16:19:40 <ivan> Ashok: a question
16:19:52 <ivan> ... eric, you were speaking of a flag like a binary one
16:20:00 <Souri> s/distinquish/distinguish/
16:20:04 <ivan> .. or are you speaking of an attribute with values
16:20:08 <cygri> q+
16:20:17 <mhausenblas> ignore cygri 
16:20:19 <mhausenblas> ahm
16:20:20 <ivan> ericP: the original proposal was a flag, i proposed an attribute
16:20:30 <ivan> .. the dispute comes from cygri who feels it is not necessary
16:20:35 <dmcneil> +q
16:20:47 <ivan> ... the use cases that are enabled with an attribute are not compelling to richard
16:20:57 <ivan> ... so i would like to see a decision on the basic question
16:21:33 <ivan> Ashok: if we have an attribute, that could be a string, what you end up choosing for, how you actually act based on that, we do not specify
16:21:39 <ivan> ... ie, there is no harm for this
16:21:52 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 
16:21:53 <ivan> ericP: per richard it makes the spec more difficult to read
16:22:35 <ivan> cygri: there are a number of issues with this; one is that it puts additional burden on the authors, 'cause they have to say which sql dialect they are using, and I think most of the authors have no idea
16:22:47 <Souri> agree with Richard about SQL writers not being aware of compatibility
16:22:52 <ivan> ... most would have no interest or the knowledge of what to use
16:23:34 <ivan> ... it is quite a complicated thing with different version of sql
16:23:45 <mhausenblas> q?
16:23:58 <ivan> ... the other issue is that i would expect most of the implementation will be specific to a specific database system
16:24:09 <ivan> ... they know what sql dialect they are connected to
16:24:10 <EFranconi> EFranconi has joined #RDB2RDF
16:24:53 <ivan> ... at that point the assumption is that if the author binds to an oracle specific database, then it is a reasonable assumption that the author will expect that the sql dialect is oracle's
16:25:05 <ivan> ... the information is redundant, adds no value
16:25:11 <mhausenblas> ack dmcneil 
16:25:13 <mhausenblas> q?
16:25:25 <ivan> dmcneil: i suggest that there is a support to add a binary indicator
16:25:35 <ivan> ... and then the specific dialect may be decided later
16:25:51 <ivan> cygri: it is the same problem, the author may not know that either
16:26:10 <ivan> Ashok: eric, can you live with what richard recommended
16:26:12 <EFranconi> i'm trying
16:26:22 <ivan> ericP: his recommendation is not to have a flag or an attribute
16:26:29 <Souri> if we include it, we could make it optional, more like a comment, just informative "works on: Oracle DB 11.2.*"
16:26:36 <ivan> ... if we had a flag, i was interested for an attribute
16:26:41 <dmcneil> +q
16:26:44 <ivan> ... if we do not have flag, I can live with that
16:26:56 <mhausenblas> ack dmcneil 
16:27:13 <ivan> dmcneil: we say in the spec that we will use sql 2008
16:27:29 <ivan> ... but richard says, effectively, that the user can put anything there
16:27:42 <ivan> cygri: we define r2rml/sql2008
16:27:45 <MacTed> was this flag to be mandatory?  it seems a strong value-add if known/included, so having it and making it optional seems a win...
16:27:49 <Zakim> +??P0
16:28:09 <ivan> ... if someone wants to use r2rml with sql lite
16:28:14 <mhausenblas> Zakim, ??P0 is EFranconi 
16:28:14 <Zakim> +EFranconi; got it
16:28:20 <mhausenblas> present+ Enrico
16:28:25 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:28:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:28:31 <ivan> ... then they would be using r2rml/sql lite
16:28:39 <ivan> ... it is fairly clear what the behaviour would be
16:28:46 <ivan> ... but we do not necessarily say that
16:29:03 <ivan> ... and we can add something like 'you know what you would be doing...'
16:29:15 <mhausenblas> q?
16:29:25 <ivan> dmcneil: in our implementation we rely on that flag
16:29:32 <ivan> ... i can definitely say it is useful for us
16:29:33 <MacTed> q+
16:29:34 <ivan> q+
16:29:43 <mhausenblas> ack MacTed 
16:30:05 <ivan> MacTed: it seems problematic to make mandatory, but if the information there it may be useful
16:30:16 <cygri> q+
16:30:25 <mhausenblas> q?
16:30:28 <mhausenblas> ack ivan 
16:30:32 <ivan> ... so if it is optional, that is fine
16:30:33 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:30:33 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:30:34 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 
16:30:36 <mhausenblas> q?
16:30:41 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:30:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:30:47 <ivan> cygri: i like to have this thing as an optional
16:30:58 <ivan> ... i am not particularly opposed to it
16:31:12 <ivan> ... what is the process to get the concrete identifiers for the dialects
16:31:18 <ivan> ... would we define those
16:31:20 <ericP> q+ to say we define 1
16:31:39 <ivan> mhausenblas: i would interpret eric's action to draft this with the optional attribute
16:31:45 <ivan> ... eric, is that fine?
16:32:01 <ivan> ericP: I can do that, i want to do one for sql2008
16:32:08 <ivan> ... and the community can define to
16:32:15 <ivan> mhausenblas: we can then resolve it next week
16:32:25 <ivan> cygri: i am o.k. with that way of making progress
16:32:42 <ivan> ... what is the chance that there will be some sort of a standardization of these values
16:32:48 <ivan> ... to make things interoperable
16:32:59 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:32:59 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:33:04 <ivan> ... eric just said that he would propose one value
16:33:07 <Souri> I'd say cardinality should be 0-n (works for this, works for that, works for that too , ...)
16:33:23 <ivan> MacTed: once one is define, the rest of use can throw in for others
16:33:29 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:33:29 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:33:43 <ivan> mhausenblas: let eric start the process and let the others propose theirs
16:33:53 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:33:53 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:33:59 <ivan> cygri: i am not sure how to address every dialect
16:34:14 <ivan> ... anyway, we can talk about that when we have something on the table
16:34:19 <ivan> q+
16:34:27 <mhausenblas> q?
16:34:31 <ericP> ack me
16:34:31 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say we define 1
16:34:39 <ericP> _:sMapping r:language <http://foo.example/tupleRelationalCaluculs> ; r:SQLQuery "Contacts : {company} | Contacts.name='Sue'" .
16:34:45 <mhausenblas> ack ivan  
16:35:33 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: re ISSUE-22 the WG decides to have an OPTIONAL flag. this does not yet resolve ISSUE-22
16:35:47 <ivan> +1
16:35:50 <Souri> q+
16:35:57 <mhausenblas> ack Souri 
16:36:13 <ivan> Souri: is that mean that it is compatible to XXX, yes, or no?
16:36:14 <mhausenblas> q?
16:36:32 <dmcneil> +q
16:36:34 <ivan> Ashok: the idea is that you have an attribute and you can use that as you wish
16:36:42 <ivan> ... the spec does not spell out the details
16:36:43 <mhausenblas> ack dmcneil 
16:37:06 <ivan> dmcneil: the issue I see we say sql queries for sql2008
16:37:23 <ivan> ... if you go to an r2rml process you expect that to run
16:37:38 <ivan> q+
16:37:52 <ivan> ... we would then water down
16:38:04 <mhausenblas> q?
16:38:12 <cygri> q+
16:38:19 <ivan> ... it is implicit in there that there is vendor specific sql and do not use that
16:38:24 <ivan> ack ivan 
16:38:30 <mhausenblas> q?
16:38:58 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 
16:39:01 <ericP> ivan: i read this as "if i use something other than 2008, then i might make it explicit with this flag"
16:39:29 <ivan> cygri: I think it will be common to have implementations that will use a single or a small number of sql engines
16:39:31 <dmcneil> PROPOSAL: re ISSUE-22 the WG decides to have an OPTIONAL flag. this does not yet resolve ISSUE-22, if the flag is not used then all SQL is expected to be SQL-2008 compliant
16:39:41 <ivan> ... these implementations will accept queries in a particular dialect
16:39:51 <ivan> ... i may have sql lite
16:40:03 <ivan> ... that would make use of the flag
16:40:13 <ivan> ... i am opposed to have a flag that does not add any value
16:40:34 <ivan> ... flags the individual queries is comletely wrong that do not address a specific scenario
16:40:44 <Zakim> -privera
16:40:45 <Souri> +1 to Richard: we should make the common case less verbose (if SQL2008 => say it, if silent => it is NOT)
16:41:16 <mhausenblas> q?
16:41:38 <Souri> q+
16:41:43 <ivan> mhausenblas: one side, like dmcneil , who says that it is useful, another implementor says it does not really make sense
16:41:56 <ivan> cygri: i am not disputing that it can be useful
16:42:09 <mhausenblas> q?
16:42:35 <ivan> cygri: i expect that it will be common to write the queries that are not sql 2008
16:42:41 <ivan> ... and they do not want to flag
16:42:42 <Souri> if SQL2008 compatible: say it (if unspecified: may not be SQL2008 compatible)
16:42:59 <ivan> ... what I said is that we do not define that in our spec
16:43:11 <ivan> ... we would say that the flag is of a small scope
16:43:26 <ivan> ... what the proposal say that we define portability
16:43:38 <Souri> q?
16:43:44 <ivan> ... i am not o.k. having to flag for non sql all the time
16:43:46 <LeeF> I have no idea when I'm writing compliant SQL or not :)
16:43:56 <ivan> q+
16:44:17 <ivan> ... it would be stupid to ask for this flag
16:44:32 <mhausenblas> ack Souri 
16:44:46 <Zakim> +??P3
16:44:54 <MacTed> flag is optional -- if it's present, it gives information about the SQL conformance/dialect.  if it's not present, the information is unknown.
16:44:54 <MacTed> attribute likewise -- if it's present, it gives more detailed information than a flag.
16:44:58 <ivan> Souri: my comment is that I agree with richard, when I write a sql I am not really sure what version it is
16:45:04 <privera> Zakim, ??P3 is privera
16:45:04 <Zakim> +privera; got it
16:45:05 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy
16:45:05 <ivan> ... i would like to get the common case
16:45:06 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's noisy', MacTed
16:45:08 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
16:45:09 <privera> zakim, mute me
16:45:09 <Zakim> privera should now be muted
16:45:18 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MacTed (49%), privera (15%)
16:45:24 <ivan> ... if I do not know what it is compatible is, 
16:45:34 <ivan> ... but if I know, then we have the option
16:45:42 <mhausenblas> q?
16:45:50 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:45:50 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:45:51 <ivan> .. if i do not say anything, then it may or it may not be compatible
16:46:06 <ericP> souri, a la { _:sMapping r:language _:dunno } ?
16:46:11 <ivan> ... if I want to say then I can choose to use the attribute
16:46:14 <mhausenblas> ack ivan 
16:48:18 <cygri> PROPOSAL: if attribute is present, we assume it's a specific dialect. if attribute is absent, we do not know what dialect it is. we only specify the behaviour of R2RML where the attribute says it's SQL-2008.
16:49:05 <MacTed> +1
16:49:32 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: Re ISSUE-22 the WG decides to introduce an OPTIONAL attribute. if attribute is present, we assume it's a specific dialect. if attribute is absent, we do not know what dialect it is. we only specify the behaviour of R2RML where the attribute says it's SQL-2008.
16:49:47 <cygri> +0.75
16:49:58 <ivan> +1
16:49:59 <MacTed> it rounds up
16:50:07 <Souri> +0.75
16:50:08 <boris> +1
16:50:10 <betehess> +1
16:50:14 <ivan> RESOLVED: Re ISSUE-22 the WG decides to introduce an OPTIONAL attribute. if attribute is present, we assume it's a specific dialect. if attribute is absent, we do not know what dialect it is. we only specify the behaviour of R2RML where the attribute says it's SQL-2008.
16:50:26 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:50:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:50:43 <ivan> Topic: issue 42
16:50:47 <ivan> issue-42?
16:50:47 <trackbot> ISSUE-42 -- How is the direct mapping suppose to handle NULL values wrt Information Preserving -- open
16:50:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/42
16:51:28 <ivan> mhausenblas: as you all know we have a deadline in september
16:51:44 <ivan> ... given that the group has spent about a month on issues 41 and 42
16:51:57 <ivan> ... i am inclined to resolve that asap
16:52:13 <ivan> ... i doubt that another month or even another year will solve this
16:52:28 <ivan> ... my position that it is not solved yet, we cannot crack it
16:52:39 <ivan> ... i would say we have two proposals on the table
16:53:11 <ivan> ... enrico's proposal is that the dm does not apply if there is a null value in the database
16:53:15 <ericP> q+ to make a no change proposal
16:53:23 <mhausenblas> ack ericP 
16:53:23 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to make a no change proposal
16:53:39 <ivan> ... my proposal is to reflect the shema in the proposal and omit triples with null
16:53:49 <ivan> s/shema/schema/
16:53:56 <EFranconi> in the latter case to omit triples with nulls, we shoudl add the note: add a note saying that in this case it is not known how to relate this interpretation to the semantics of the NULL of the rdb it comes from
16:54:02 <betehess> ericP, there *would* be a change: adding the table information, which isn't there yet
16:54:17 <juansequeda> q+
16:54:22 <ivan> mhausenblas: if people agree with the september deadline, we resolve it today
16:54:26 <mhausenblas> ack juansequeda 
16:54:58 <ivan> juansequeda: the current spec does not generate triples and the only thing to be added is the table information
16:55:06 <ivan> ... and add some explanation to the text
16:55:55 <ivan> ericP: the depth you can model schema is arbitrary, one can add owl statements 
16:56:01 <ivan> .. i can go deep into that
16:56:20 <ivan> ... or shallowest i can do, is to assume that the person issuing the query knows the schema
16:56:31 <juansequeda> PROPOSAL: Add to the Direct Mapping spec the generating of the schema triples and also add a note stating that "it is not known how to relate this interpretation to the semantics of the NULL of the rdb it comes from"
16:56:42 <ivan> ... the range is no change at all to deep curation of the data model in the relation model
16:56:58 <Souri> Schema generation (based on table and constraint definitions), non-generation of triples corr to NULL cells in table, and a note sounds good to me!
16:56:59 <EFranconi> q+
16:57:36 <mhausenblas> ack EFranconi 
16:57:39 <ivan> Ashok: there is one other possible action, that EFranconi proposed with all of its details
16:58:02 <ivan> EFranconi: i do not disagree with the proposal, but it is a message of failure of this group
16:58:24 <ivan> ... what you say that the mapping does not say anything about the semantics
16:58:42 <dmcneil> +q
16:58:45 <ivan> ... a serious implementer would not take this seriously, it is a bad message
16:59:01 <mhausenblas> ack dmcneil 
16:59:21 <juansequeda> q+
16:59:26 <EFranconi> q+
16:59:30 <ivan> dmcneil: i agree with the conclusion of enrico, can we try to soften the message with 'unknown'
17:00:08 <ivan> mhausenblas: i would suggest that we ask EFranconi to write a non rec track note that explains the problem space, and we could point to this non rec track note
17:00:10 <mhausenblas> ack juansequeda 
17:00:10 <ericP> +1 to asking enrico to writing a note about the semantics of NULL
17:00:12 <mhausenblas> q?
17:00:32 <ivan> juansequeda: i have the suspicion that we can get the issue solved offline with EFranconi 
17:00:37 <Seema> I agree that the note is too strong.
17:00:45 <ivan> ... let us have this proposal as now
17:01:00 <ivan> ... i am sure that the next week with enrico we can solve this problem
17:01:04 <mhausenblas> ack EFranconi 
17:01:33 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: Re ISSUE-42, the WG decides add to the Direct Mapping spec the generating of the schema triples and also add a note stating that "it is not known how to relate this interpretation to the semantics of the NULL of the rdb it comes from"
17:01:37 <ivan> EFranconi: i do not think we can find the solution within a week, but i believe we can have a note that formulates the problem
17:02:08 <ericP> q+ to ask enrico for a concrete screw case with real-world example data
17:02:35 <ivan> mhausenblas: i hope that EFranconi would lead the effort to write this note
17:02:42 <Souri> +1 to the proposal (with a non-Rec track note)
17:02:44 <mhausenblas> ack ericP 
17:02:44 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask enrico for a concrete screw case with real-world example data
17:02:47 <ivan> ... it must be a note to not screw up planning
17:03:32 <ivan> ericP: reading the issue of EFranconi and I would like to see a real world example data where our assumption of using non assertions breaks some intuitive queries people would have
17:03:35 <mhausenblas> q?
17:03:40 <ivan> ... ultimately we will need this
17:04:02 <ivan> Ashok: that is a reasonable thing to have in a note
17:04:21 <Souri> +1
17:04:37 <ivan> cygri: I try to capture this discussion better
17:04:41 <cygri> PROPOSAL: Re ISSUE-42, the WG decides add to the Direct Mapping spec the generating of rdfs:range (and possibly other) schema triples and also add a note to the Direct Mapping spec saying: "The DM does not generate triples for NULL values. For a detailed discussion of this issue, see the following document" which points to a separate working group note
17:04:48 <ivan> ...
17:04:50 <ivan> ...
17:05:08 <dmcneil> +1
17:05:13 <ericP> +1
17:05:14 <Souri> +1
17:05:14 <Seema> +1 to Richard's wording
17:05:16 <betehess> +1
17:05:16 <MacTed> +1
17:05:17 <ivan> +1
17:05:17 <EFranconi> abstain :-)
17:05:18 <privera> +1
17:05:20 <boris> +1
17:05:26 <juansequeda> +1
17:05:37 <LeeF> +1
17:06:09 <ivan> RESOLVED: Re ISSUE-42, the WG decides add to the Direct Mapping spec the generating of rdfs:range (and possibly other) schema triples and also add a note to the Direct Mapping spec saying: "The DM does not generate triples for NULL values. For a detailed discussion of this issue, see the following document" which points to a separate working group note
17:06:15 <ericP> for the record, i heard a +1 from ashok
17:06:20 <ericP> (verbal)
17:06:24 <Ashok> +1
17:06:38 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:06:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:06:41 <ivan> mhausenblas: who would accept to take a lead this
17:06:49 <ivan> EFranconi: for family reasons I cannot take a leading role
17:06:57 <ivan> ... i am happy to contribute
17:07:23 <ivan> juansequeda: i am talking on behalf of marcello, we can take the lead on that
17:07:55 <ivan> action on juansequeda ask marcello whether he is happy be co-editor of the NULL Note
17:07:55 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - on
17:08:04 <juansequeda> jsequeda
17:08:11 <ivan> action member:juansequeda ask marcello whether he is happy be co-editor of the NULL Note
17:08:11 <trackbot> Sorry, bad ACTION syntax
17:08:38 <ivan> action juansqueda ask marcello whether he is happy be co-editor of the NULL Note
17:08:38 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - juansqueda
17:08:53 <mhausenblas> ACTION: ivan to learn Zakimish
17:08:53 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - ivan
17:08:53 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ivan, imikhail)
17:08:57 <LeeF> action: juan to ask marcello whether he is happy to be co-editor of the NULL Note
17:08:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-134 - Ask marcello whether he is happy to be co-editor of the NULL Note [on Juan Sequeda - due 2011-06-21].
17:09:01 <ericP> actioncolon...
17:09:22 <Zakim> -dmcneil
17:09:23 <Zakim> -Alexandre
17:09:26 <Zakim> -privera
17:09:28 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
17:09:35 <Zakim> -EFranconi
17:09:39 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:09:39 <privera> privera has left #RDB2RDF
17:09:43 <Zakim> -juansequeda
17:09:50 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:10:00 <Zakim> -EricP
17:10:01 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
17:10:04 <Zakim> -Seema
17:10:31 <Zakim> -boris
17:14:40 <privera> privera has joined #RDB2RDF
17:15:27 <Zakim> -Souri
17:15:47 <privera> privera has left #RDB2RDF
17:16:30 <Zakim> -LeeF
17:16:31 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has ended
17:16:33 <Zakim> Attendees were +3539149aaaa, mhausenblas, Ivan, cygri_, +49.153.6.aabb, boris, privera, +1.781.273.aacc, MacTed, Ashok_Malhotra, +1.314.394.aadd, dmcneil, nunolopes, EricP,
17:16:35 <Zakim> ... +1.603.897.aaee, Alexandre, +1.603.897.aaff, Seema, Souri, +575737aagg, juansequeda, LeeF, EFranconi
17:21:39 <mhausenblas> [adjourned]
17:21:46 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:21:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:24:03 <mhausenblas> trackbot, end telecon
17:24:03 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:24:03 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
17:24:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:24:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-rdb2rdf-minutes.html trackbot
17:24:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:24:05 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-rdb2rdf-actions.rdf :
17:24:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: member to juansequeda ask marcello whether he is happy be co-editor of the NULL Note [1]
17:24:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-rdb2rdf-irc#T17-08-11
17:24:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ivan to learn Zakimish [2]
17:24:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-rdb2rdf-irc#T17-08-53
17:24:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: juan to ask marcello whether he is happy to be co-editor of the NULL Note [3]
17:24:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/14-rdb2rdf-irc#T17-08-57