15:59:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pf
15:59:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/18-pf-irc
15:59:51 <janina> zakim, this will be pf
15:59:51 <Zakim> ok, janina, I see WAI_PF()12:00PM already started
16:00:00 <janina> zakim, who's here?
16:00:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.512.255.aaaa, ??P36
16:00:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, SallyC, richardschwerdtfe, trackbot
16:01:16 <janina> zakim, ??P36 is Janina
16:01:16 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
16:01:28 <Zakim> + +44.121.665.aabb
16:01:30 <janina> zakim, +aaaa is Mary_Joe
16:01:30 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named '+aaaa'
16:01:51 <janina> zakim, +1.512.255.aaaa is Mary_Joe
16:01:51 <Zakim> +Mary_Joe; got it
16:01:51 <SallyC> zakim, +44 is SallyC
16:01:53 <Zakim> +SallyC; got it
16:02:38 <janina> zakim, +44.121.665.aabb is Sally
16:02:38 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named '+44.121.665.aabb'
16:03:20 <janina> zakim, who's here?
16:03:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mary_Joe, Janina, SallyC
16:03:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, SallyC, richardschwerdtfe, trackbot
16:04:49 <janina> regrets: Tim_Boland, Gottfried_Zimmerman
16:05:03 <janina> Meeting: PFWG telecon
16:05:03 <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
16:05:03 <janina> agenda: this
16:05:03 <janina> agenda+ identify scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
16:05:03 <janina> agenda+ preview agenda with items from two minutes
16:05:04 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/open
16:05:06 <janina> agenda+ new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html#tr_LCWD
16:05:08 <janina> agenda+ HTML 5 Longdesc Reconsideration http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0419.html
16:05:10 <janina> agenda+ HTML 5 Last Call WBS http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/html5-last-call-poll/
16:05:12 <janina> agenda+ Does PF Approve HTML 5 Last Call?  http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html#coordination
16:05:14 <janina> agenda+ Points of Interest FPWD http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-pf-chairs-minutes.html#item10
16:05:16 <janina> agenda+ Realtime Communications CFP http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2011AprJun/0032.html
16:05:18 <janina> agenda+ Role Module: Is anything testable?
16:05:20 <janina> agenda+ ARIA.Next? http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-pf-chairs-minutes.html#item04
16:05:22 <janina> agenda+ Scheduling UAIG Review
16:05:24 <janina> agenda+ ARIA: Bridge or A11y Core?  http://www.w3.org/2011/05/06-pf-minutes
16:05:26 <janina> agenda+ Organizing Intentional Events agenda+   CSS Haptic/Braille
16:05:28 <janina> agenda+ Other Task Force Reports & Issues
16:05:30 <janina> agenda+ New Business
16:05:32 <janina> agenda+ next and future meetings http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_273
16:05:34 <janina> agenda+ be done
16:05:50 <Andi> Andi has joined #pf
16:06:06 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
16:06:12 <Zakim> +Andi_Snow-Weaver
16:06:56 <SallyC> zakim, who's here?
16:06:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mary_Joe, Janina, SallyC, Tim_Boland, Andi_Snow-Weaver
16:06:57 <janina> zakim, who's here?
16:06:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see Andi, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, SallyC, richardschwerdtfe, trackbot
16:06:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mary_Joe, Janina, SallyC, Tim_Boland, Andi_Snow-Weaver
16:07:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see Andi, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, SallyC, richardschwerdtfe, trackbot
16:08:48 <SallyC> Scribe: SallyC
16:09:48 <SallyC> + two minutes
16:10:12 <SallyC> JS: Skip action items as we are small
16:10:17 <SallyC> in attendance
16:10:38 <SallyC> JS: And skip new last calls. We can be confident there is nothing there
16:11:21 <SallyC> JS: Publication of several HTML 5 documents for next week
16:11:53 <SallyC> JS: Longdesc and if we think html 5 is ready for last call and the poll are related to that
16:12:26 <SallyC> + HTML 5 Longdesc Reconsideration http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0419.html
16:12:54 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0419.html
16:12:57 <SallyC> JS: to reconsider reinstating longdesc
16:14:04 <SallyC> JS: the text subteam met and unanimously approved this request in a resolution. Also approved a resolution should last call be published without longdesc in the spec then there would be support for a formal complaint to the director to hold
16:14:25 <SallyC> JS: We do have a consensus document in the taskforce which is quite old. 
16:14:55 <SallyC> JS: It does not mention anything about where the sub teams fit as we hadn't realised that is where most of the work would get done in subteams
16:15:11 <SallyC> JS: Procedural things happen in the task force
16:16:06 <Zakim> + +1.720.342.aacc
16:16:11 <SallyC> JS: Consensus procedures reflect expectations on where we started not where we are now. However it raises the prospect of questioning this statement.
16:16:42 <richardschwerdtfe> can you hear me?
16:17:03 <SallyC> JS: We will put this to a vote in the taskforce vote. Assuming it is approved, either one of the resolutions then there would be a survey for three working days for people to comment on the topic
16:17:05 <richardschwerdtfe> k
16:17:37 <richardschwerdtfe> will call back in
16:17:46 <Zakim> - +1.720.342.aacc
16:18:02 <Zakim> +Rich
16:20:13 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
16:20:24 <SallyC> JS: Any questions?
16:20:34 <SallyC> RS: They want us to vote again?
16:20:44 <SallyC> JS: Yes! On call and the survey
16:20:58 <MaryJo> MaryJo has joined #PF
16:21:44 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
16:22:01 <SallyC> RS: I haven't looked at the overall voting on going to last call, but to me parts are incomplete.
16:22:07 <SallyC> JS: Yes this is to discuss
16:22:57 <SallyC> CS: will save my comments on content for tomorrow
16:23:17 <SallyC> + HTML 5 Last Call WBS http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/html5-last-call-poll/
16:23:46 <SallyC> JS: The question is 8 different documents or so. Are each of them ready or not for last call publication
16:24:04 <SallyC> RS: What does it look like
16:24:19 <SallyC> SC: Last time I looked there were mostly yes or one or two abstein
16:24:24 <janina> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/html5-last-call-poll/
16:24:45 <cyns> cyns has joined #pf
16:25:00 <SallyC> RS: Usually I would expect it to be a real working draft and then move to a last call. I think there are things missing
16:25:27 <SallyC> JS: There is the poll and the next agendum is if we believe it should be published
16:25:41 <SallyC> + Does PF Approve HTML 5 Last Call?  http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html#coordination
16:25:51 <janina> HTML Charter Dependencies at:
16:25:53 <janina> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html#coordination
16:26:27 <SallyC> This lists the working groups that HTML is required to interact with and they should have advised us formally if they were going to do this publication
16:27:11 <SallyC> JS: We do have a say in whether we think this is ready as PF and as individuals if we are in the taskforce
16:28:17 <SallyC> JS: There is a call scheduled with Tim tomorrow to discuss the formal objection which has come up regarding longdesc. Sam posted how he saw some of the issues.
16:28:43 <SallyC> JS: He thought management needed to make a decision on how to proceed
16:29:23 <SallyC> JS: It wasn't so much that any particular feature was or wasn't in the spec, but what the document is, will it be called feature complete.
16:29:35 <SallyC> JS: to us it is clear that not everything is in the spec.
16:30:04 <SallyC> JS: Great chunk that is missing is the older settled technology and possibly not controversial any longer. 
16:30:52 <SallyC> JS: It is important to the reputation of the organisation and of accessibility and if it is not feature complete then say so. Could we flag things that are missing?
16:31:34 <SallyC> JS: Could annotate what is missing and link to discussion and show it as an in process specification. But they want more feedback and on accessibility
16:31:39 <richardschwerdtfe> +1
16:31:48 <richardschwerdtfe> sorry Q+
16:31:52 <richardschwerdtfe> q+
16:32:11 <janina> ack r
16:33:02 <SallyC> RS: Canvas - we have a decision and the chairs made a decision but there were a couple of things that were left out. They related to 508. We were asked to raise these but nothing happened
16:33:33 <SallyC> RS: We are missing is ability to provide bounds of an object so you can map it to an a11y API
16:33:54 <SallyC> RS: The technical solution to this is going to take a little longer. 
16:34:25 <SallyC> RS: I put this to the list and I provided use cases 
16:34:45 <SallyC> RS: When they say this is a 'last call document' ie all major features are there. I don't think it is. 
16:34:48 <Andi> q+
16:35:00 <SallyC> RS: I think we need to say we need a thorough review of the document
16:35:23 <SallyC> RS: Does anyone disagree?
16:35:47 <SallyC> CS: It is sometimes a good idea to go to last call with open issues - wcag did.
16:35:58 <SallyC> CS: We can state up front what some of the issues are
16:36:09 <SallyC> RS: I need to make sure that is the purpose of this release
16:36:23 <SallyC> RS: It is not clear in the survey
16:36:27 <SallyC> CS: I would not be
16:36:34 <SallyC> CS: it would not be
16:36:52 <Andi> s/I would not be//
16:37:47 <SallyC> RS: If they say we have issues and log issues that are remaining
16:37:53 <SallyC> JS: Test a consensus
16:38:26 <SallyC> JS: OK to publish even if they call it 'last call' as long as they say it is not feature complete for accessibility and we would want some things specifically listed
16:39:02 <SallyC> ASW: They seem to have a lot of bugs open
16:39:22 <SallyC> ASW: It would seem odd to go to last call with so many bugs open
16:40:16 <SallyC> JS: There is canvas, there is media
16:40:35 <SallyC> JS: There is still work to do
16:40:44 <SallyC> JS: What about other areas? 
16:41:04 <SallyC> JS: Are ARIA mappings done
16:41:09 <SallyC> RS: not concrete
16:41:52 <SallyC> RS: in longdesc proposal we have added new requirements.
16:42:51 <SallyC> RS: They are good requirements, for example user agent being able to identify longdesc areas. 
16:43:28 <SallyC> RS: We can agree in general that we are not feature complete.
16:44:08 <SallyC> RS: I am going to reopen an issue after last call as there are some discussions that have not been had
16:45:54 <SallyC> JS: We put the issue out for 48 hours before we declare a consensus. I think I can put out on the list 
16:47:40 <SallyC> ASW: any areas that still have significant issues and disagreement should be flagged by editorial notes
16:48:08 <SallyC> JS: I will do this after the call to see if we have consensus by Friday.
16:48:28 <SallyC> JS: Taskforce meeting will include the two items from the text alternatives meeting
16:48:54 <cyns> cyns has joined #pf
16:49:13 <Andi> s/editorial notes/inline editorial notes/
16:50:52 <SallyC> JS: We have been offered to flag inline and this will get more people looking at it and commenting on it which is valuable
16:51:12 <SallyC> RS: Problem is we probably won't be able to get the inline edits by Friday though
16:51:33 <SallyC> JS: The vote is due on Sunday and they want to publish on tues
16:52:16 <Zakim> -SallyC
16:52:34 <janina> zakim, who's here?
16:52:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mary_Joe, Janina, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Rich, Cynthia_Shelly
16:52:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see cyns, MaryJo, Andi, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, richardschwerdtfe, trackbot
16:52:52 <Andi> scribe: Andi
16:53:22 <Andi> JS: individual ability because of our participation in the HTML WG - should do so and not hold back
16:53:41 <Andi> JS: also charter dependency HTML has on PF - get to have a formal opinion
16:54:00 <Andi> JS: this formal opinion is what I'll be sending out the 48 hour call for
16:54:15 <Andi> CS: can we get the spec text ready? don't want to delay them
16:54:25 <Andi> CS: if they say yes, we should be ready to provide them
16:54:39 <Andi> JS: we should have the list tomorrow on the HTML task force meeting
16:54:51 <Andi> JS: do we need to schedule another meeting or can we do it via e-mail?
16:55:05 <Andi> CS: e-mail. Can everyone send their favorite issue to the PF list?
16:55:19 <Andi> CS: and include the text of the editorial note
16:55:27 <Andi> RS: no section for canvas yet
16:55:36 <Andi> CS: probably should go at the top of the canvas section
16:55:46 <Andi> JS: canvas note could include pointer to issue 131
16:56:09 <Andi> CS: never seen links in editorial notes - seems okay - but might not be allowed
16:57:03 <Andi> RS: like for Cynthia and Steve to go through section 3.2.6 to make sure it's all okay
16:57:18 <Andi> RS: one example - still don't have text on how to process ARIA attributes
16:57:29 <Andi> JS: it's our fault but it still should be there
16:57:43 <Andi> JS: make sure that what we think is in the spec is actually there
16:58:03 <richardschwerdtfe>  thanks
16:58:14 <Zakim> -Rich
16:58:17 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
16:58:17 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/18-pf-minutes.html Andi
16:58:18 <Zakim> -Janina
16:58:19 <Zakim> -Mary_Joe
16:58:25 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow-Weaver
16:58:27 <Zakim> WAI_PF()12:00PM has ended
16:58:28 <Zakim> Attendees were Janina, +44.121.665.aabb, Mary_Joe, SallyC, Tim_Boland, Andi_Snow-Weaver, +1.720.342.aacc, Rich, Cynthia_Shelly
16:58:34 <Andi> zakim, bye
16:58:38 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pf
16:58:58 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/18-pf-minutes.html Andi
17:00:43 <Andi> rrsagent, make logs public
17:00:49 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
17:00:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/18-pf-minutes.html Andi
17:04:32 <Andi> Andi has left #pf