IRC log of i18n on 2011-05-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:42:37 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/18-i18n-irc
14:42:41 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #i18n
14:42:51 [aphillip]
trackbot, configure teleconference
14:42:51 [trackbot]
Sorry, aphillip, I don't understand 'trackbot, configure teleconference'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
14:42:59 [aphillip]
trackbot, configure telecon
14:42:59 [trackbot]
Sorry, aphillip, I don't understand 'trackbot, configure telecon'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
14:43:30 [aphillip]
rackbot, start meeting
14:43:37 [aphillip]
trackbot, start meeting
14:43:39 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:43:41 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 4186
14:43:41 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
14:43:42 [trackbot]
Meeting: Internationalization Core Working Group Teleconference
14:43:43 [trackbot]
Date: 18 May 2011
14:43:55 [aphillip]
Chair: Addison Phillips
14:43:57 [aphillip]
Scribe: Addison Phillips
14:44:01 [aphillip]
ScribeNick: aphillip
14:44:23 [aphillip]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2011May/0006.html
14:44:32 [aphillip]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
14:44:38 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:44:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/18-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:45:04 [aphillip]
rrsagent, set logs world
14:45:14 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:45:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/18-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:59:02 [matial]
matial has joined #i18n
14:59:38 [kojiishi]
kojiishi has joined #i18n
14:59:50 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
14:59:56 [Zakim]
+Addison_Phillips
14:59:58 [Zakim]
+??P10
15:00:11 [David]
David has joined #i18n
15:00:52 [Zakim]
+David
15:01:19 [Zakim]
+??P19
15:01:42 [kojiishi]
zakim, ??p19 is me
15:01:42 [Zakim]
+kojiishi; got it
15:01:52 [r12a]
hi addison, deep in conversation at the moment
15:03:18 [Norbert]
Norbert has joined #i18n
15:03:44 [matial]
I muted on my side
15:04:06 [Zakim]
+Norbert
15:05:07 [aphillip]
Regrets: Richard, Felix
15:05:34 [aphillip]
Topic: Agenda
15:05:54 [aphillip]
Topic: Action Items
15:06:42 [aphillip]
Draft a summary for review next week responding to the CSS selectors request outlining potential response(s)
15:06:47 [aphillip]
close ACTION-39
15:06:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-39 Draft a summary for review next week responding to the CSS selectors request outlining potential response(s) closed
15:07:00 [aphillip]
Topic: Info Share
15:08:47 [kojiishi]
http://www.w3.org/Style/Japan-2011/
15:08:50 [aphillip]
koji: program in kyoto
15:08:58 [aphillip]
... anyone can attend
15:09:20 [aphillip]
... mostly in japanese, with translations
15:10:18 [aphillip]
Topic: HTML5 Last Call
15:11:48 [aphillip]
addison: status report on their LC
15:11:52 [aphillip]
... a lot of work coming
15:12:19 [aphillip]
Topic: CSS3 Selectors and Normalization
15:12:34 [aphillip]
http://www.w3.org/mid/131F80DEA635F044946897AFDA9AC3476A92C094DA%2540EX-SEA31-D.ant.amazon.com
15:12:46 [aphillip]
akim, who is noisy?
15:12:52 [aphillip]
zakim, who is noisy?
15:13:04 [Zakim]
aphillip, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: David (41%)
15:13:52 [aphillip]
http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/39
15:17:02 [aphillip]
http://www.w3.org/TR/charmod-norm/
15:18:25 [aphillip]
(discussion of NFC)
15:18:42 [David]
My personal feeling is that we say that the comparison of selectors should bheave as if NFC had been applied.
15:20:00 [aphillip]
addison: recommend that tools NOT normalize
15:21:11 [David]
Many web developers have no control over their tools, or data sources, particularly if transcoding has to be applied, or user entered.
15:21:46 [David]
How would most ordinary developers debug a non-match scenario?
15:22:05 [David]
zakim, unmute me
15:22:05 [Zakim]
David should no longer be muted
15:22:28 [aphillip]
addison: only "weird corner" of the web?
15:23:21 [aphillip]
david: even if its a weird corner, it's a start
15:23:35 [aphillip]
... some users use legacy encodings for a variety of reasons
15:23:42 [aphillip]
.... some "normalizing" transcoders don't
15:24:21 [aphillip]
... would completely flummox average users
15:24:56 [aphillip]
... having been on wrong end of it, feel strongly we should encourage that
15:25:40 [aphillip]
david: suggesting that "selectors should match as if content were in NFC"
15:27:10 [aphillip]
norbert: two ids what are canonically equivalent but use different encodings
15:27:22 [aphillip]
... after this requirement, browsers should reject
15:27:53 [David]
zakim, mute me
15:27:53 [Zakim]
David should now be muted
15:29:12 [aphillip]
addison: may not happen often, since usually legancy encoding mapping is either one character or another
15:30:40 [aphillip]
koji: what is intention for action here?
15:30:53 [aphillip]
addison: see what our WG agrees to
15:31:13 [David]
I would expect UTF-8 CSS selector that is the same word to match the relevant id in a DOM built from an ISO-2022-jp web page.
15:31:42 [David]
What would you all expect?
15:32:06 [David]
zakim, who is noisy?
15:32:18 [Zakim]
David, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Addison_Phillips (27%)
15:33:09 [aphillip]
norbert: going back to france discussion---cannot reasonably enforce creation of normalized text
15:33:20 [aphillip]
... don't have tools to do it
15:33:32 [aphillip]
... so normalization would have to occur during the comparison
15:33:38 [David]
I agree
15:33:48 [aphillip]
... so "when you match selectors, must behave as normalized"
15:34:43 [aphillip]
... as long as result is normalized (can be done when preparing to store selectors or during comparison)
15:34:59 [David]
Yes
15:35:20 [aphillip]
chair: are we saying we want to recommend normalize in compare?
15:35:26 [aphillip]
david: +1
15:35:32 [aphillip]
norbert: +1
15:36:45 [aphillip]
addison: two choices
15:36:58 [aphillip]
.... 1. Normalize in comparison
15:37:07 [aphillip]
... 2. Do not normalize in comparison
15:37:51 [David]
I prefer "behave as if Normalisation occured in in comparison".
15:39:45 [aphillip]
koji: +1
15:41:05 [aphillip]
ACTION: addison: rewrite response with new proposal to do normalization in comparison
15:41:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-40 - Rewrite response with new proposal to do normalization in comparison [on Addison Phillips - due 2011-05-25].
15:41:51 [aphillip]
all: need to review before next meeting so we can respond to CSS WG
15:42:32 [aphillip]
Topic: JavaScript and Unicode
15:42:56 [aphillip]
https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2011-May/014337.html
15:45:03 [aphillip]
https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2011-May/014337.html
15:45:26 [aphillip]
http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/JavaScriptInternationalization
15:45:32 [Norbert]
https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2011-May/014252.html
16:02:26 [David]
Zakim, unmute me
16:02:28 [Zakim]
David should no longer be muted
16:02:58 [matial]
+1
16:03:08 [aphillip]
chair: is everyone supportive of our working with TC39 on this
16:03:22 [aphillip]
norbert: yes
16:03:22 [aphillip]
david: yes
16:03:33 [aphillip]
Topic: AOB?
16:03:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/18-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:04:03 [matial]
Bye
16:04:03 [Zakim]
-Addison_Phillips
16:04:04 [Zakim]
-kojiishi
16:04:06 [Zakim]
-David
16:04:07 [Zakim]
-Norbert
16:04:11 [Zakim]
-matial
16:04:11 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended
16:04:13 [Zakim]
Attendees were Addison_Phillips, matial, David, kojiishi, Norbert
16:15:24 [aphillip]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:15:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/18-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:15:27 [aphillip]
zakim, bye
16:15:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18n
16:15:31 [aphillip]
rrsagent, bye
16:15:31 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/18-i18n-actions.rdf :
16:15:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: addison: rewrite response with new proposal to do normalization in comparison [1]
16:15:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/18-i18n-irc#T15-41-05