15:29:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
15:29:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-irc
15:29:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:29:33 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
15:29:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
15:29:35 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
15:29:36 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:29:36 <trackbot> Date: 10 May 2011
15:29:40 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011May/0020.html
15:29:43 <mhausenblas> Chair: Michael
15:29:48 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:29:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:29:55 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:31:13 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Marcelo
15:31:18 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Soeren
15:52:47 <dmcneil> dmcneil has joined #RDB2RDF
15:54:25 <alexdeleon> alexdeleon has joined #RDB2RDF
15:55:35 <dmcneil> sure
15:55:44 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #rdb2rdf
15:55:56 <mhausenblas> scribenick: dmcneil 
15:58:16 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
15:58:23 <Zakim> +alexdeleon
15:58:52 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
15:58:58 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:59:01 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:59:01 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:59:11 <mhausenblas> present+ Alex D
15:59:17 <mhausenblas> present+ Ivan
15:59:21 <mhausenblas> present+ Michael
15:59:32 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:59:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:59:49 <Zakim> +dmcneil
16:00:13 <mhausenblas> present+ David
16:00:28 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:00:38 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:00:38 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:00:40 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:00:40 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:00:40 <mhausenblas> present+ Ted
16:00:46 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
16:00:48 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:00:51 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:00:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:01:01 <mhausenblas> Zakim, cygri is with me
16:01:01 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
16:01:17 <Zakim> -alexdeleon
16:01:23 <mhausenblas> present+ Richard
16:01:31 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:01:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:01:43 <mhausenblas> present+ Ashok 
16:01:57 <Zakim> +alexdeleon
16:02:20 <juansequeda> juansequeda has joined #rdb2rdf
16:02:23 <Zakim> +Ted
16:02:41 <Zakim> -alexdeleon
16:02:42 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Boris
16:02:53 <Zakim> + +575737aaaa
16:02:58 <juansequeda> Zakim, aaaa is me
16:02:58 <Zakim> +juansequeda; got it
16:03:17 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:03:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, Ivan, dmcneil, MacTed (muted), Ashok_Malhotra, Ted, juansequeda
16:03:19 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri
16:03:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see juansequeda, cygri, Ashok, alexdeleon, dmcneil, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, ivan, MacTed, LeeF, betehess, iv_an_ru__, trackbot, ericP
16:03:24 <mhausenblas> present+ Juan
16:03:30 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:03:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:03:32 <Seema> Seema has joined #rdb2rdf
16:03:46 <Zakim> +Souri
16:03:54 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:03:56 <mhausenblas> present+ Souri
16:04:24 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:04:46 <mhausenblas> I hope both ericP and betehess can follow on IRC?
16:05:05 <Zakim> +alexdeleon
16:05:20 <Zakim> +Seema
16:05:23 <mhausenblas> present+ Seema
16:05:29 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:05:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, Ivan, dmcneil, Ashok_Malhotra, Ted, juansequeda, Souri, alexdeleon, Seema
16:05:32 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri
16:05:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, Seema, juansequeda, cygri, Ashok, alexdeleon, dmcneil, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, ivan, MacTed, LeeF, betehess, iv_an_ru__, trackbot, ericP
16:05:55 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:05:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:06:21 <mhausenblas> Topic: Admin
16:06:28 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: Accept the minutes of last meeting http://www.w3.org/2011/05/03-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:06:30 <dmcneil> michael: start with accepting minutes of last meeting
16:06:52 <dmcneil> RESOLUTION: working group approves minutes of last meeting
16:07:04 <mhausenblas> Topic: LC planning
16:07:51 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:07:59 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:07:59 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:08:04 <MacTed> Zakim, who's making noise?
16:08:05 <Zakim> -alexdeleon
16:08:14 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: mhausenblas (48%), Ashok_Malhotra (23%), juansequeda (44%), MacTed (49%), Ivan (39%), Ted (37%)
16:08:17 <alexdeleon> sorry guys don't what's going on
16:08:37 <Zakim> -Ted
16:08:45 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:08:45 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:08:53 <privera> privera has joined #RDB2RDF
16:08:55 <Zakim> +Ted
16:08:57 <dmcneil> ashok: question 1 about last call planning: when do we need to publish?
16:09:17 <dmcneil> question 2: what does the status need to be in regard to the issues (do they all have to be closed)?
16:09:28 <dmcneil> ivan maybe could talk us through the process
16:09:39 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:09:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, Ivan, dmcneil, Ashok_Malhotra, juansequeda, Souri, Seema, MacTed (muted), Alexandre
16:09:40 <dmcneil> ivan: for last call the point is that all technical issues are closed
16:09:41 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri
16:09:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see privera, Souri, Seema, juansequeda, cygri, Ashok, alexdeleon, dmcneil, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, ivan, MacTed, LeeF, betehess, iv_an_ru__, trackbot, ericP
16:09:45 <Zakim> +??P24
16:09:50 <dmcneil> as soon as we reach that point we can publish LC (last call)
16:10:03 <privera> Zakim, ??P24 is privera
16:10:03 <Zakim> +privera; got it
16:10:04 <dmcneil> ashok: what if we discuss comments at TPAC
16:10:11 <dmcneil> what is the latest we can publish
16:10:13 <privera> Zakim, mute me
16:10:13 <Zakim> privera should now be muted
16:10:37 <dmcneil> michael: we need to be in LC for a couple of weeks before TPAC in order to discuss the comments at TPAC (at our face-to-face meeting)
16:10:48 <dmcneil> we can calculate back from there
16:10:55 <ericP> ivan, 
16:11:01 <mhausenblas> present+ Percy
16:11:19 <ivan> q+
16:11:19 <dmcneil> ashok: if we tentatively agree to publish LC specs on or before Oct 1 that would give us a month
16:11:39 <mhausenblas> ack ivan 
16:11:48 <dmcneil> ivan: i think it would be better to have it earlier
16:11:59 <dmcneil> suppose we receive a large number of LC comments
16:12:00 <mhausenblas> Michael: LC must at least last 3 weeks (http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr#last-call)
16:12:03 <dmcneil> then we would need the time
16:12:16 <dmcneil> the goal of the face-to-face should be to close all last call comments
16:12:23 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Nuno
16:12:28 <dmcneil> so after face-to-face we can publish candidate recommendation
16:12:29 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:12:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:12:44 <dmcneil> if there are many LC comments, there may be too many to resolve at face-to-face
16:13:01 <dmcneil> so if we could publish LC on Sept 1, then we should be able to close everything at face-to-face
16:13:08 <dmcneil> publich candidate recommendation in Nov
16:13:18 <dmcneil> should not be  ahuge problem to get implementations
16:13:25 <dmcneil> then could propose final spec in Feb
16:13:46 <dmcneil> michael: doc says LC period needs a minumum of 3 weeks
16:14:15 <dmcneil> ivan: closing LC requires some administration
16:14:27 <mhausenblas> Michael:
16:14:30 <mhausenblas> [[Duration of the review: The announcement begins a review period that SHOULD last at least three weeks but MAY last longer if the technical report is complex or has significant external dependencies.]]
16:14:38 <mhausenblas> from http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr#last-call
16:14:59 <dmcneil> michael: should we create a wiki page with the timeline and who should do what?
16:15:17 <dmcneil> ashok: should ask working group if a last call on Sept 1 seems reasonable
16:15:23 <Zakim> +alexdeleon
16:16:00 <dmcneil> michael: there are still open issues, "pending review", and "postponed" issues
16:16:31 <dmcneil> so we would have 3 months to close all of these (+ any new ones)
16:16:44 <dmcneil> there would be roughly 20+ issues to address
16:17:12 <dmcneil> ashok: should try and speed up our rate a bit, but think it is possible
16:17:26 <dmcneil> ivan: let's close some issues today :)
16:17:35 <cygri> let's clone some editors
16:17:49 <dmcneil> ashok: i will create a wiki page of LC timeline
16:18:00 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Ashok to draft Wiki page with LC sprint time line with Sep 2011 LC
16:18:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-125 - Draft Wiki page with LC sprint time line with Sep 2011 LC [on Ashok Malhotra - due 2011-05-17].
16:18:15 <mhausenblas> TOPIC: Action Items
16:18:18 <dmcneil> michael: on to review action items
16:18:21 <mhausenblas> ACTION-122?
16:18:21 <trackbot> ACTION-122 -- Alexander de Leon to draft a proposal for ISSUE-18 -- due 2011-05-10 -- OPEN
16:18:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/122
16:18:34 <ivan> q+
16:18:38 <mhausenblas> ack ivan
16:19:02 <ivan> PROPOSAL: To resolve ISSUE-18 by always requiring use of a URI (or blank 
16:19:02 <ivan> node) to identify the logical table to use for a TriplesMap and 
16:19:02 <ivan> specifying the details about the logical table using either the pair of 
16:19:02 <ivan> properties, rr:tableName and rr:tableOwner, or the property rr:SQLQuery.
16:19:03 <mhausenblas> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011May/0023.html
16:19:39 <dmcneil> ivan: souri sent out email with proposed names for the properties/classes
16:20:06 <dmcneil> souri: I alligned the names with the "logical table" terminology from the R2RML spec
16:20:14 <dmcneil> instead of the name "row source"
16:20:24 <dmcneil> +q
16:20:51 <dmcneil> souri: URI or blank node
16:20:53 <mhausenblas> ack dmcneil
16:22:01 <dmcneil> dmcneil: asks about using the names rr:table to point to a resource of type Table or Query
16:22:21 <dmcneil> souri: even though the current names are long, prefers them becuase the spec refers to logical tables
16:22:33 <dmcneil> so it is clearer to have longer versions
16:22:44 <dmcneil> cygri: given two proposals, I am always for shorter
16:23:10 <dmcneil> understand concern about being precise, but think that at the end of the day people have to read/write this stuff
16:23:14 <Zakim> +EricP
16:23:19 <MacTed> q+
16:23:25 <mhausenblas> present+ Eric
16:23:26 <mhausenblas> q?
16:23:27 <dmcneil> user needs to understand it once, but needs to read/write repeatedly
16:23:30 <Ashok> regrets+: Nuno
16:23:33 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:23:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:23:42 <dmcneil> there is no risk of it being confused with another property
16:24:13 <dmcneil> should be as short as possible as long as they are still unique
16:24:41 <Souri> David, What was the shorter name you were suggesting?
16:24:52 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:24:52 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:24:54 <dmcneil> PROPOSAL: use a property named "table" to refer to a resource of type Table or Query
16:24:58 <mhausenblas> q?
16:25:03 <mhausenblas> ack MacTed 
16:25:25 <dmcneil> ted: if we are going to use a term of use in this document, then the first time we say "table" and mean "logical table" then we define it at that point
16:25:37 <dmcneil> this maintains the brevity and the clarity
16:25:42 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:25:42 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:25:59 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: to resolve ISSUE-18 as proposed here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011May/0023.html with the change to use a property named "table" to refer to a resource of type Table or Query
16:26:14 <MacTed> quick rev...
16:27:03 <Souri> These are the names now: rr:logicalTable, rr:NamedLogicalTableClass, rr:QueryLogicalTableClass. What would be the new corr names?
16:27:08 <MacTed> at first use of "table" state that "in this doc, we use `table` to mean `logical table`"
16:27:12 <MacTed> or some such...
16:27:29 <dmcneil> new names would be rr:table rr:Table rr:Query
16:27:40 <Ashok> +1 to Ted's suggestion
16:27:41 <alexdeleon> q+
16:27:48 <mhausenblas> ack alexdeleon 
16:28:17 <dmcneil> alex: i like Table and Query, but we were putting Class at the end of all of the type names, will we keep this convention?
16:28:26 <Souri> so, rr:TableClass and rr:QueryClass?
16:28:41 <dmcneil> souri: we have used that convention so far
16:28:42 <mhausenblas> q?
16:29:01 <dmcneil> cygri: why? because it is a class?
16:29:03 <dmcneil> souri: yes
16:29:30 <dmcneil> cygri: what about TriplesMap?
16:29:36 <Souri> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/r2rml/#TriplesMapClass_Class
16:30:01 <dmcneil> michael: if we are in agreement, and just about gettng the names right, can we leave that up to the editors? if the principle modeling is agreed
16:30:22 <dmcneil> cygri: for consistency all the properties should have a Property suffix?
16:30:25 <dmcneil> michael: gag
16:30:59 <dmcneil> souri: I don't mind getting rid of the Class suffix, just should be consistent
16:31:27 <dmcneil> michael: original proposal with an action for editors to come up with consistent naming for all classes
16:31:38 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: to resolve ISSUE-18 as proposed here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011May/0023.html and the Editors make sure that classes are named consistenly
16:32:06 <dmcneil> souri: one last question: rr:table and rr:Table could be very confusing
16:32:20 <dmcneil> michael: let's not waste our telecon time on this
16:33:18 <MacTed> I agree that names should not differ *solely* by a single character case.
16:33:57 <ivan> +1 to close the issue 18
16:33:57 <dmcneil> souri: editors will take a look at the names and propose something in email
16:34:00 <alexdeleon> +1
16:34:02 <dmcneil> +1
16:34:03 <cygri> +1
16:34:20 <betehess> +1
16:34:22 <dmcneil> RESOLUTION: working group resolves ISSUE-18 as proposed here
16:34:56 <dmcneil> souri: rr:subjectMap is a property, so that may be why we added Class at the ends of the class names
16:35:00 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Souri to implement ISSUE-18 resolution and make sure that all class and property names are meaningful
16:35:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-126 - Implement ISSUE-18 resolution and make sure that all class and property names are meaningful [on Souripriya Das - due 2011-05-17].
16:35:25 <dmcneil> ACTION-123
16:35:27 <mhausenblas> ACTION-123?
16:35:27 <trackbot> ACTION-123 -- Souripriya Das to implement decision re ISSUE-25 -- due 2011-05-10 -- OPEN
16:35:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/123
16:35:50 <mhausenblas> ACTION-124?
16:35:50 <trackbot> ACTION-124 -- Seema Sundara to implement decision re ISSUE-29 (bNodes identifier and URI expressions be of string types) -- due 2011-05-10 -- OPEN
16:35:50 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/124
16:35:52 <dmcneil> souri: not done yet
16:36:08 <dmcneil> seema: not done yet
16:36:14 <dmcneil> michael: on to open issues
16:36:15 <mhausenblas> TOPIC: Open issues
16:36:20 <mhausenblas> ISSUE-32?
16:36:20 <trackbot> ISSUE-32 -- Remove the use of curly braces in joinCondition -- open
16:36:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/32
16:37:51 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/r2rml/#RefObjectMapClass_joinCondition_Property
16:37:52 <dmcneil> cygri: this is in the spec
16:38:00 <cygri> {childAlias.}deptno = {parentAlias.}deptno
16:38:09 <cygri> {childAlias}.deptno = {parentAlias}.deptno
16:38:15 <cygri> childAlias.deptno = parentAlias.deptno
16:38:37 <ivan> q+
16:38:44 <dmcneil> cygri: these are the options
16:38:47 <mhausenblas> ack ivan
16:38:57 <dmcneil> ivan: what was the original reason for {}
16:39:13 <dmcneil> souri: so it is easy to replace them with the alias for the parent/child tables
16:39:21 <dmcneil> souri: trying to avoid parsing
16:39:40 <dmcneil> cygri: what about case when join covers multiple columns
16:39:56 <dmcneil> souri: join condition could be a compound expression with AND, etc.
16:40:27 <mhausenblas> q?
16:40:37 <Zakim> -alexdeleon
16:40:42 <dmcneil> cygri: so if we remove {} then there could be a clash with a table named childAlias
16:40:50 <dmcneil> michael: what is simplest solution
16:41:12 <dmcneil> cygri: to not allow arbitrary expressions but to only allow simple equality checks
16:41:19 <dmcneil> if there were multiple columns to join on
16:41:26 <dmcneil> then there would be multiple values of the join property
16:41:29 <cygri> "childAlias.col1=parentAlias.col1", "childAlias.col2=parentAlias.col2"
16:41:39 <Ashok> q+
16:41:46 <mhausenblas> ack Ashok 
16:41:47 <dmcneil> +1 to what richard just said
16:42:04 <dmcneil> ashok: questions about allowing SQL here
16:42:08 <cygri> another option: "col1=>col1", "col2=>col2"
16:42:18 <dmcneil> end up specifying what parts of SQL can and cannot be used, would rather not do this
16:42:28 <dmcneil> SQL is SQL, use whatever you want
16:42:37 <dmcneil> eric: doesn't that break use-cases for pushing queries down
16:42:53 <dmcneil> e.g. someone is unnecessarily using vendor extensions to declare part of a view
16:42:53 <mhausenblas> s/end up specifying/Ashok: end up specifying
16:42:58 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:42:58 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:43:04 <mhausenblas> s/SQL is SQL/Ashok: SQL is SQL
16:43:07 <mhausenblas> q?
16:43:14 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:43:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:43:35 <dmcneil> ted: vendor extensions cannot be stopped
16:43:55 <dmcneil> eric: can we get useful work done if we start parsing something but it has vendor extensions?
16:44:05 <dmcneil> ted: good product will do everything for $$$
16:44:21 <dmcneil> ashok: i was not talking about vendor extensions, but merely restricting SQL
16:44:47 <dmcneil> dmcneil: he means only allowing a subset of SQL in this property
16:44:51 <dmcneil> (i think)
16:45:50 <dmcneil> cygri: what we are doing with this join condition is making an explicit that a FK is to be used
16:45:59 <dmcneil> to join two tables
16:46:03 <dmcneil> where tables are logical tables
16:46:14 <dmcneil> but this only works if the FK constraint holds
16:46:53 <dmcneil> constraining the SQL here makes some sense becuase we are just doing a FK join, not a general cosntraint
16:46:57 <Souri> agree with Richard
16:47:13 <dmcneil> michael: ashok - do you have a concrete proposal?
16:47:21 <dmcneil> ashok: proposal is to allow full SQL syntax
16:47:32 <dmcneil> otherwise we need to document what you can and cannot do
16:47:37 <dmcneil> which is confusing
16:47:46 <dmcneil> also, not sure what we are buying with this
16:48:01 <dmcneil> but we can write complicated parsers
16:48:51 <dmcneil> cygri: the reason this is wierd is because we have a literal with something that looks like SQL, but really we didn't want to break the entire thing down into RDF
16:49:01 <dmcneil> proper way would be to model it as many triples in RDF
16:49:22 <Souri> if we limit to equality checks only, then conceptually, it could be a list of ordered pairs (for pure referential constrains, that is sufficient)
16:49:31 <dmcneil> instead of that we just use micro-syntax borrowed from SQL here
16:49:37 <cygri> rr:joinChild "parentID"; rr:joinParent "ID";
16:49:40 <dmcneil> maybe we should just bite the bullet and use RDF
16:50:15 <mhausenblas> q?
16:50:50 <cygri> rr:joinChild ("parentID1", "parentID2"); rr:joinParent ("ID1", "ID2);
16:50:57 <dmcneil> souri: could be a list of ordered pairs, the current spec is more flexible than this, but is it needed?
16:51:57 <dmcneil> michael: stepping back a bit, on ISSUE-32, are we ready to provide a proposal to resolve it with what richard proposed?
16:52:27 <dmcneil> cygri: i will volunteer to take an action to write a proposal to the list
16:52:37 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Richard to write up a proposal to resolve ISSUE-32 based on today's discussion
16:52:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-127 - Write up a proposal to resolve ISSUE-32 based on today's discussion [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-05-17].
16:53:00 <mhausenblas> ISSUE-34?
16:53:00 <trackbot> ISSUE-34 -- R2RML terminology: addressing vendor-specific names like "owner" -- open
16:53:00 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/34
16:53:38 <dmcneil> souri: this is about finding a non-vendor-specific term
16:54:13 <dmcneil> cygri: this requires looking into SQL spec to see what term is used there (that is one way of resolving it)
16:55:44 <mhausenblas> ISSUE-35?
16:55:44 <trackbot> ISSUE-35 -- Case sensitivity of SQL identifiers -- open
16:55:44 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/35
16:56:46 <dmcneil> dmcneil: r2rml should treat identifiers as db does
16:56:49 <dmcneil> ashok: i agree
16:56:49 <MacTed> which locks the R2RML you write today onto the DB engine you use today?
16:57:06 <dmcneil> cygri: mysql, by default they are not case sensitive, but special quotes makes them case sensitive
16:57:07 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:57:07 <Zakim> MacTed was not muted, MacTed
16:57:18 <dmcneil> souri: same in Oracle, "" makes them case sensitive
16:57:38 <dmcneil> cygri: would you use "" in R2RML?
16:57:40 <mhausenblas> q?
16:58:06 <dmcneil> ted: the quote character changes with engine, whether they exist changes with engine, canonical case changes with engine
16:58:29 <dmcneil> in most cases the engine will convert all identifiers to a canonical case until quote chars appear
16:58:40 <dmcneil> it is very hard to have a simple answer: do it this way
16:58:58 <dmcneil> this is why apps are written to universal APIs which translate to db specific manner
16:59:09 <Souri> q+
16:59:11 <dmcneil> by saying R2ML must match the engine we doom the implementors
16:59:26 <betehess>  /me is more and more worried that R2RML won't be portable but tied to the underlying DB that is used. let's imagine if HTML was defined this way
16:59:32 <dmcneil> did we decide on full or core SQL?
17:00:11 <dmcneil> cygri: if you don't use pure SQL then you are not doing R2RML any more (?)
17:00:30 <mhausenblas> ack Souri 
17:00:50 <cygri> MacTed: see http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/r2rml/#sql-conformance
17:00:56 <cygri> this is ISSUE-22
17:01:08 <dmcneil> souri: if user uses camel case, then we propagate that directly to database, up to db to interpret
17:01:14 <dmcneil> +q
17:01:23 <dmcneil> -q
17:01:33 <mhausenblas> q?
17:02:01 <mhausenblas> Michael: we MUST specify what SQL we're targeting - will take an action to update the UCR doc http://www.w3.org/TR/rdb2rdf-ucr/
17:02:01 <dmcneil> ted: oracle turns the identifiers to all caps unless they are quoted
17:02:33 <dmcneil> ted: could treat it as case insensitive unless it is quoted then treat it as case sensistive
17:03:09 <dmcneil> cygri: would you put the quotes in the Turtle representation of the mapping?
17:03:21 <Ashok> Do DB2 and SQLServer have the same rules re. identifiers?
17:03:44 <dmcneil> ted: user needs to add quotes to make it case sensitive
17:03:51 <dmcneil> if the engine fails then they need to change it
17:04:02 <dmcneil> cygri: in R2RML there are several places where values are column names
17:04:26 <dmcneil> ted: if those values are not quoted delimited then they are case insensitive
17:04:34 <cygri> rr:table "\"ThisIsQuotedTableName\"";
17:04:37 <dmcneil> the issue also has to do with sepcial chars, not just casing
17:04:37 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Hausenblas to find the resolution re what SQL and SPARQL we address and make this explicit core requirements in the UCR document
17:04:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-128 - Find the resolution re what SQL and SPARQL we address and make this explicit core requirements in the UCR document [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2011-05-17].
17:04:56 <mhausenblas> q?
17:05:01 <dmcneil> cygri: SQL and Turtle quoting are mixed together, but that is the price to pay
17:06:23 <dmcneil> cygri: in D2R quotes are not used, up to the implementation to figure it out, but doesn't work really well
17:06:35 <dmcneil> ted's proposal is really ugly but might be right
17:07:18 <dmcneil> souri: identifiers could also include special characters
17:07:20 <mhausenblas> q?
17:07:33 <dmcneil> that was one of the motivations for {}
17:08:01 <dmcneil> column names can have a space in them
17:08:44 <cygri> PROPOSAL: SQL identifiers in R2RML are case insensitive by default, and become case sensitive when enclosed in the DB engine's quote character. This should be noted in the spec as something we seek feedback on.
17:09:18 <MacTed> s/DB engine's quote character/R2RML delimiter (TBD)/
17:09:31 <dmcneil> PROPOSAL: SQL identifiers in R2RML are either case sensitive or insensitive (configurable) and become case sensitive when enclosed in an R2RML specified quote character
17:09:59 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:10:02 <dmcneil> ashok: does this agree with the SQL standard?
17:10:03 <Zakim> -Alexandre
17:10:10 <dmcneil> cygri: I think it matches what Oracle allows
17:10:14 <MacTed> "double-quote" is implementation specific
17:10:20 <dmcneil> would be good to double-check the spec
17:10:46 <dmcneil> ashok: I can find out about DB2 and SQL-Server
17:11:12 <dmcneil> ted: this should not be based on the engines, but should be based on the spec
17:11:43 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Ashok to check re DB2 and SQL-Server for ISSUE-35 (case sensitivity of SQL identifiers)
17:11:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-129 - Check re DB2 and SQL-Server for ISSUE-35 (case sensitivity of SQL identifiers) [on Ashok Malhotra - due 2011-05-17].
17:11:46 <dmcneil> ted: don't use db engines quote character because it is variable, there is a db call to get it, can be overriden by an app
17:12:08 <dmcneil> cygri: simplest case is to pass the queries as-is on to the engine
17:12:16 <dmcneil> ted: then let them get an error if it fails
17:12:25 <dmcneil> cygri: but simplest implementation should work
17:12:27 <dmcneil> +q
17:13:04 <mhausenblas> q?
17:13:20 <mhausenblas> ack dmcneil
17:14:01 <Souri> Another option: Could we prescribe a syntax for specifying case-sensitive column names in R2RML? Then we translate the mapping based upon the input and the target SQL engine.
17:14:16 <Zakim> -EricP
17:14:17 <Zakim> -dmcneil
17:14:17 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
17:14:18 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
17:14:18 <Zakim> -Seema
17:14:19 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:14:19 <Zakim> -Souri
17:14:21 <Zakim> -privera
17:14:21 <mhausenblas> [meeting adjourned]
17:14:25 <Zakim> -juansequeda
17:14:27 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has ended
17:14:29 <Zakim> Attendees were alexdeleon, mhausenblas, Ivan, dmcneil, MacTed, Ashok_Malhotra, cygri, +575737aaaa, juansequeda, Souri, Seema, Alexandre, privera, EricP
17:16:13 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:16:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:19:13 <mhausenblas> trackbot, end telecon
17:19:13 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:19:13 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
17:19:14 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:19:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html trackbot
17:19:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:19:15 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-actions.rdf :
17:19:15 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ashok to draft Wiki page with LC sprint time line with Sep 2011 LC [1]
17:19:15 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-18-00
17:19:15 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Souri to implement ISSUE-18 resolution and make sure that all class and property names are meaningful [2]
17:19:15 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-35-00
17:19:15 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Richard to write up a proposal to resolve ISSUE-32 based on today's discussion [3]
17:19:15 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-52-37
17:19:15 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Hausenblas to find the resolution re what SQL and SPARQL we address and make this explicit core requirements in the UCR document [4]
17:19:15 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-irc#T17-04-37-1
17:19:15 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ashok to check re DB2 and SQL-Server for ISSUE-35 (case sensitivity of SQL identifiers) [5]
17:19:15 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-irc#T17-11-43