IRC log of rdb2rdf on 2011-05-10
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
- 15:29:31 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-irc
- 15:29:33 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 15:29:33 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
- 15:29:35 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be 7322733
- 15:29:35 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
- 15:29:36 [trackbot]
- Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
- 15:29:36 [trackbot]
- Date: 10 May 2011
- 15:29:40 [mhausenblas]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011May/0020.html
- 15:29:43 [mhausenblas]
- Chair: Michael
- 15:29:48 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 15:29:48 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 15:29:55 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 15:31:13 [mhausenblas]
- regrets+ Marcelo
- 15:31:18 [mhausenblas]
- regrets+ Soeren
- 15:52:47 [dmcneil]
- dmcneil has joined #RDB2RDF
- 15:54:25 [alexdeleon]
- alexdeleon has joined #RDB2RDF
- 15:55:35 [dmcneil]
- sure
- 15:55:44 [Ashok]
- Ashok has joined #rdb2rdf
- 15:55:56 [mhausenblas]
- scribenick: dmcneil
- 15:58:16 [Zakim]
- SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
- 15:58:23 [Zakim]
- +alexdeleon
- 15:58:52 [Zakim]
- +mhausenblas
- 15:58:58 [ivan]
- zakim, dial ivan-voip
- 15:59:01 [Zakim]
- ok, ivan; the call is being made
- 15:59:01 [Zakim]
- +Ivan
- 15:59:11 [mhausenblas]
- present+ Alex D
- 15:59:17 [mhausenblas]
- present+ Ivan
- 15:59:21 [mhausenblas]
- present+ Michael
- 15:59:32 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 15:59:32 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 15:59:49 [Zakim]
- +dmcneil
- 16:00:13 [mhausenblas]
- present+ David
- 16:00:28 [Zakim]
- +OpenLink_Software
- 16:00:38 [MacTed]
- Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
- 16:00:38 [Zakim]
- +MacTed; got it
- 16:00:40 [MacTed]
- Zakim, mute me
- 16:00:40 [Zakim]
- MacTed should now be muted
- 16:00:40 [mhausenblas]
- present+ Ted
- 16:00:46 [Zakim]
- +Ashok_Malhotra
- 16:00:48 [cygri]
- cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
- 16:00:51 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 16:00:51 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 16:01:01 [mhausenblas]
- Zakim, cygri is with me
- 16:01:01 [Zakim]
- +cygri; got it
- 16:01:17 [Zakim]
- -alexdeleon
- 16:01:23 [mhausenblas]
- present+ Richard
- 16:01:31 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 16:01:31 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 16:01:43 [mhausenblas]
- present+ Ashok
- 16:01:57 [Zakim]
- +alexdeleon
- 16:02:20 [juansequeda]
- juansequeda has joined #rdb2rdf
- 16:02:23 [Zakim]
- +Ted
- 16:02:41 [Zakim]
- -alexdeleon
- 16:02:42 [mhausenblas]
- regrets+ Boris
- 16:02:53 [Zakim]
- + +575737aaaa
- 16:02:58 [juansequeda]
- Zakim, aaaa is me
- 16:02:58 [Zakim]
- +juansequeda; got it
- 16:03:17 [mhausenblas]
- Zakim, who's here?
- 16:03:17 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see mhausenblas, Ivan, dmcneil, MacTed (muted), Ashok_Malhotra, Ted, juansequeda
- 16:03:19 [Zakim]
- mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri
- 16:03:20 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see juansequeda, cygri, Ashok, alexdeleon, dmcneil, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, ivan, MacTed, LeeF, betehess, iv_an_ru__, trackbot, ericP
- 16:03:24 [mhausenblas]
- present+ Juan
- 16:03:30 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 16:03:30 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 16:03:32 [Seema]
- Seema has joined #rdb2rdf
- 16:03:46 [Zakim]
- +Souri
- 16:03:54 [Zakim]
- -MacTed
- 16:03:56 [mhausenblas]
- present+ Souri
- 16:04:24 [Souri]
- Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
- 16:04:46 [mhausenblas]
- I hope both ericP and betehess can follow on IRC?
- 16:05:05 [Zakim]
- +alexdeleon
- 16:05:20 [Zakim]
- +Seema
- 16:05:23 [mhausenblas]
- present+ Seema
- 16:05:29 [mhausenblas]
- Zakim, who's here?
- 16:05:29 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see mhausenblas, Ivan, dmcneil, Ashok_Malhotra, Ted, juansequeda, Souri, alexdeleon, Seema
- 16:05:32 [Zakim]
- mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri
- 16:05:33 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see Souri, Seema, juansequeda, cygri, Ashok, alexdeleon, dmcneil, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, ivan, MacTed, LeeF, betehess, iv_an_ru__, trackbot, ericP
- 16:05:55 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 16:05:55 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 16:06:21 [mhausenblas]
- Topic: Admin
- 16:06:28 [mhausenblas]
- PROPOSAL: Accept the minutes of last meeting http://www.w3.org/2011/05/03-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
- 16:06:30 [dmcneil]
- michael: start with accepting minutes of last meeting
- 16:06:52 [dmcneil]
- RESOLUTION: working group approves minutes of last meeting
- 16:07:04 [mhausenblas]
- Topic: LC planning
- 16:07:51 [Zakim]
- +OpenLink_Software
- 16:07:59 [MacTed]
- Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
- 16:07:59 [Zakim]
- +MacTed; got it
- 16:08:04 [MacTed]
- Zakim, who's making noise?
- 16:08:05 [Zakim]
- -alexdeleon
- 16:08:14 [Zakim]
- MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: mhausenblas (48%), Ashok_Malhotra (23%), juansequeda (44%), MacTed (49%), Ivan (39%), Ted (37%)
- 16:08:17 [alexdeleon]
- sorry guys don't what's going on
- 16:08:37 [Zakim]
- -Ted
- 16:08:45 [MacTed]
- Zakim, mute me
- 16:08:45 [Zakim]
- MacTed should now be muted
- 16:08:53 [privera]
- privera has joined #RDB2RDF
- 16:08:55 [Zakim]
- +Ted
- 16:08:57 [dmcneil]
- ashok: question 1 about last call planning: when do we need to publish?
- 16:09:17 [dmcneil]
- question 2: what does the status need to be in regard to the issues (do they all have to be closed)?
- 16:09:28 [dmcneil]
- ivan maybe could talk us through the process
- 16:09:39 [mhausenblas]
- Zakim, who's here?
- 16:09:39 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see mhausenblas, Ivan, dmcneil, Ashok_Malhotra, juansequeda, Souri, Seema, MacTed (muted), Alexandre
- 16:09:40 [dmcneil]
- ivan: for last call the point is that all technical issues are closed
- 16:09:41 [Zakim]
- mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri
- 16:09:43 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see privera, Souri, Seema, juansequeda, cygri, Ashok, alexdeleon, dmcneil, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, ivan, MacTed, LeeF, betehess, iv_an_ru__, trackbot, ericP
- 16:09:45 [Zakim]
- +??P24
- 16:09:50 [dmcneil]
- as soon as we reach that point we can publish LC (last call)
- 16:10:03 [privera]
- Zakim, ??P24 is privera
- 16:10:03 [Zakim]
- +privera; got it
- 16:10:04 [dmcneil]
- ashok: what if we discuss comments at TPAC
- 16:10:11 [dmcneil]
- what is the latest we can publish
- 16:10:13 [privera]
- Zakim, mute me
- 16:10:13 [Zakim]
- privera should now be muted
- 16:10:37 [dmcneil]
- michael: we need to be in LC for a couple of weeks before TPAC in order to discuss the comments at TPAC (at our face-to-face meeting)
- 16:10:48 [dmcneil]
- we can calculate back from there
- 16:10:55 [ericP]
- ivan,
- 16:11:01 [mhausenblas]
- present+ Percy
- 16:11:19 [ivan]
- q+
- 16:11:19 [dmcneil]
- ashok: if we tentatively agree to publish LC specs on or before Oct 1 that would give us a month
- 16:11:39 [mhausenblas]
- ack ivan
- 16:11:48 [dmcneil]
- ivan: i think it would be better to have it earlier
- 16:11:59 [dmcneil]
- suppose we receive a large number of LC comments
- 16:12:00 [mhausenblas]
- Michael: LC must at least last 3 weeks (http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr#last-call)
- 16:12:03 [dmcneil]
- then we would need the time
- 16:12:16 [dmcneil]
- the goal of the face-to-face should be to close all last call comments
- 16:12:23 [mhausenblas]
- regrets+ Nuno
- 16:12:28 [dmcneil]
- so after face-to-face we can publish candidate recommendation
- 16:12:29 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 16:12:29 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 16:12:44 [dmcneil]
- if there are many LC comments, there may be too many to resolve at face-to-face
- 16:13:01 [dmcneil]
- so if we could publish LC on Sept 1, then we should be able to close everything at face-to-face
- 16:13:08 [dmcneil]
- publich candidate recommendation in Nov
- 16:13:18 [dmcneil]
- should not be ahuge problem to get implementations
- 16:13:25 [dmcneil]
- then could propose final spec in Feb
- 16:13:46 [dmcneil]
- michael: doc says LC period needs a minumum of 3 weeks
- 16:14:15 [dmcneil]
- ivan: closing LC requires some administration
- 16:14:27 [mhausenblas]
- Michael:
- 16:14:30 [mhausenblas]
- [[Duration of the review: The announcement begins a review period that SHOULD last at least three weeks but MAY last longer if the technical report is complex or has significant external dependencies.]]
- 16:14:38 [mhausenblas]
- from http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr#last-call
- 16:14:59 [dmcneil]
- michael: should we create a wiki page with the timeline and who should do what?
- 16:15:17 [dmcneil]
- ashok: should ask working group if a last call on Sept 1 seems reasonable
- 16:15:23 [Zakim]
- +alexdeleon
- 16:16:00 [dmcneil]
- michael: there are still open issues, "pending review", and "postponed" issues
- 16:16:31 [dmcneil]
- so we would have 3 months to close all of these (+ any new ones)
- 16:16:44 [dmcneil]
- there would be roughly 20+ issues to address
- 16:17:12 [dmcneil]
- ashok: should try and speed up our rate a bit, but think it is possible
- 16:17:26 [dmcneil]
- ivan: let's close some issues today :)
- 16:17:35 [cygri]
- let's clone some editors
- 16:17:49 [dmcneil]
- ashok: i will create a wiki page of LC timeline
- 16:18:00 [mhausenblas]
- ACTION: Ashok to draft Wiki page with LC sprint time line with Sep 2011 LC
- 16:18:00 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-125 - Draft Wiki page with LC sprint time line with Sep 2011 LC [on Ashok Malhotra - due 2011-05-17].
- 16:18:15 [mhausenblas]
- TOPIC: Action Items
- 16:18:18 [dmcneil]
- michael: on to review action items
- 16:18:21 [mhausenblas]
- ACTION-122?
- 16:18:21 [trackbot]
- ACTION-122 -- Alexander de Leon to draft a proposal for ISSUE-18 -- due 2011-05-10 -- OPEN
- 16:18:21 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/122
- 16:18:34 [ivan]
- q+
- 16:18:38 [mhausenblas]
- ack ivan
- 16:19:02 [ivan]
- PROPOSAL: To resolve ISSUE-18 by always requiring use of a URI (or blank
- 16:19:02 [ivan]
- node) to identify the logical table to use for a TriplesMap and
- 16:19:02 [ivan]
- specifying the details about the logical table using either the pair of
- 16:19:02 [ivan]
- properties, rr:tableName and rr:tableOwner, or the property rr:SQLQuery.
- 16:19:03 [mhausenblas]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011May/0023.html
- 16:19:39 [dmcneil]
- ivan: souri sent out email with proposed names for the properties/classes
- 16:20:06 [dmcneil]
- souri: I alligned the names with the "logical table" terminology from the R2RML spec
- 16:20:14 [dmcneil]
- instead of the name "row source"
- 16:20:24 [dmcneil]
- +q
- 16:20:51 [dmcneil]
- souri: URI or blank node
- 16:20:53 [mhausenblas]
- ack dmcneil
- 16:22:01 [dmcneil]
- dmcneil: asks about using the names rr:table to point to a resource of type Table or Query
- 16:22:21 [dmcneil]
- souri: even though the current names are long, prefers them becuase the spec refers to logical tables
- 16:22:33 [dmcneil]
- so it is clearer to have longer versions
- 16:22:44 [dmcneil]
- cygri: given two proposals, I am always for shorter
- 16:23:10 [dmcneil]
- understand concern about being precise, but think that at the end of the day people have to read/write this stuff
- 16:23:14 [Zakim]
- +EricP
- 16:23:19 [MacTed]
- q+
- 16:23:25 [mhausenblas]
- present+ Eric
- 16:23:26 [mhausenblas]
- q?
- 16:23:27 [dmcneil]
- user needs to understand it once, but needs to read/write repeatedly
- 16:23:30 [Ashok]
- regrets+: Nuno
- 16:23:33 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 16:23:33 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 16:23:42 [dmcneil]
- there is no risk of it being confused with another property
- 16:24:13 [dmcneil]
- should be as short as possible as long as they are still unique
- 16:24:41 [Souri]
- David, What was the shorter name you were suggesting?
- 16:24:52 [MacTed]
- Zakim, unmute me
- 16:24:52 [Zakim]
- MacTed should no longer be muted
- 16:24:54 [dmcneil]
- PROPOSAL: use a property named "table" to refer to a resource of type Table or Query
- 16:24:58 [mhausenblas]
- q?
- 16:25:03 [mhausenblas]
- ack MacTed
- 16:25:25 [dmcneil]
- ted: if we are going to use a term of use in this document, then the first time we say "table" and mean "logical table" then we define it at that point
- 16:25:37 [dmcneil]
- this maintains the brevity and the clarity
- 16:25:42 [MacTed]
- Zakim, mute me
- 16:25:42 [Zakim]
- MacTed should now be muted
- 16:25:59 [mhausenblas]
- PROPOSAL: to resolve ISSUE-18 as proposed here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011May/0023.html with the change to use a property named "table" to refer to a resource of type Table or Query
- 16:26:14 [MacTed]
- quick rev...
- 16:27:03 [Souri]
- These are the names now: rr:logicalTable, rr:NamedLogicalTableClass, rr:QueryLogicalTableClass. What would be the new corr names?
- 16:27:08 [MacTed]
- at first use of "table" state that "in this doc, we use `table` to mean `logical table`"
- 16:27:12 [MacTed]
- or some such...
- 16:27:29 [dmcneil]
- new names would be rr:table rr:Table rr:Query
- 16:27:40 [Ashok]
- +1 to Ted's suggestion
- 16:27:41 [alexdeleon]
- q+
- 16:27:48 [mhausenblas]
- ack alexdeleon
- 16:28:17 [dmcneil]
- alex: i like Table and Query, but we were putting Class at the end of all of the type names, will we keep this convention?
- 16:28:26 [Souri]
- so, rr:TableClass and rr:QueryClass?
- 16:28:41 [dmcneil]
- souri: we have used that convention so far
- 16:28:42 [mhausenblas]
- q?
- 16:29:01 [dmcneil]
- cygri: why? because it is a class?
- 16:29:03 [dmcneil]
- souri: yes
- 16:29:30 [dmcneil]
- cygri: what about TriplesMap?
- 16:29:36 [Souri]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/r2rml/#TriplesMapClass_Class
- 16:30:01 [dmcneil]
- michael: if we are in agreement, and just about gettng the names right, can we leave that up to the editors? if the principle modeling is agreed
- 16:30:22 [dmcneil]
- cygri: for consistency all the properties should have a Property suffix?
- 16:30:25 [dmcneil]
- michael: gag
- 16:30:59 [dmcneil]
- souri: I don't mind getting rid of the Class suffix, just should be consistent
- 16:31:27 [dmcneil]
- michael: original proposal with an action for editors to come up with consistent naming for all classes
- 16:31:38 [mhausenblas]
- PROPOSAL: to resolve ISSUE-18 as proposed here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011May/0023.html and the Editors make sure that classes are named consistenly
- 16:32:06 [dmcneil]
- souri: one last question: rr:table and rr:Table could be very confusing
- 16:32:20 [dmcneil]
- michael: let's not waste our telecon time on this
- 16:33:18 [MacTed]
- I agree that names should not differ *solely* by a single character case.
- 16:33:57 [ivan]
- +1 to close the issue 18
- 16:33:57 [dmcneil]
- souri: editors will take a look at the names and propose something in email
- 16:34:00 [alexdeleon]
- +1
- 16:34:02 [dmcneil]
- +1
- 16:34:03 [cygri]
- +1
- 16:34:20 [betehess]
- +1
- 16:34:22 [dmcneil]
- RESOLUTION: working group resolves ISSUE-18 as proposed here
- 16:34:56 [dmcneil]
- souri: rr:subjectMap is a property, so that may be why we added Class at the ends of the class names
- 16:35:00 [mhausenblas]
- ACTION: Souri to implement ISSUE-18 resolution and make sure that all class and property names are meaningful
- 16:35:01 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-126 - Implement ISSUE-18 resolution and make sure that all class and property names are meaningful [on Souripriya Das - due 2011-05-17].
- 16:35:25 [dmcneil]
- ACTION-123
- 16:35:27 [mhausenblas]
- ACTION-123?
- 16:35:27 [trackbot]
- ACTION-123 -- Souripriya Das to implement decision re ISSUE-25 -- due 2011-05-10 -- OPEN
- 16:35:27 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/123
- 16:35:50 [mhausenblas]
- ACTION-124?
- 16:35:50 [trackbot]
- ACTION-124 -- Seema Sundara to implement decision re ISSUE-29 (bNodes identifier and URI expressions be of string types) -- due 2011-05-10 -- OPEN
- 16:35:50 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/124
- 16:35:52 [dmcneil]
- souri: not done yet
- 16:36:08 [dmcneil]
- seema: not done yet
- 16:36:14 [dmcneil]
- michael: on to open issues
- 16:36:15 [mhausenblas]
- TOPIC: Open issues
- 16:36:20 [mhausenblas]
- ISSUE-32?
- 16:36:20 [trackbot]
- ISSUE-32 -- Remove the use of curly braces in joinCondition -- open
- 16:36:20 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/32
- 16:37:51 [cygri]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/r2rml/#RefObjectMapClass_joinCondition_Property
- 16:37:52 [dmcneil]
- cygri: this is in the spec
- 16:38:00 [cygri]
- {childAlias.}deptno = {parentAlias.}deptno
- 16:38:09 [cygri]
- {childAlias}.deptno = {parentAlias}.deptno
- 16:38:15 [cygri]
- childAlias.deptno = parentAlias.deptno
- 16:38:37 [ivan]
- q+
- 16:38:44 [dmcneil]
- cygri: these are the options
- 16:38:47 [mhausenblas]
- ack ivan
- 16:38:57 [dmcneil]
- ivan: what was the original reason for {}
- 16:39:13 [dmcneil]
- souri: so it is easy to replace them with the alias for the parent/child tables
- 16:39:21 [dmcneil]
- souri: trying to avoid parsing
- 16:39:40 [dmcneil]
- cygri: what about case when join covers multiple columns
- 16:39:56 [dmcneil]
- souri: join condition could be a compound expression with AND, etc.
- 16:40:27 [mhausenblas]
- q?
- 16:40:37 [Zakim]
- -alexdeleon
- 16:40:42 [dmcneil]
- cygri: so if we remove {} then there could be a clash with a table named childAlias
- 16:40:50 [dmcneil]
- michael: what is simplest solution
- 16:41:12 [dmcneil]
- cygri: to not allow arbitrary expressions but to only allow simple equality checks
- 16:41:19 [dmcneil]
- if there were multiple columns to join on
- 16:41:26 [dmcneil]
- then there would be multiple values of the join property
- 16:41:29 [cygri]
- "childAlias.col1=parentAlias.col1", "childAlias.col2=parentAlias.col2"
- 16:41:39 [Ashok]
- q+
- 16:41:46 [mhausenblas]
- ack Ashok
- 16:41:47 [dmcneil]
- +1 to what richard just said
- 16:42:04 [dmcneil]
- ashok: questions about allowing SQL here
- 16:42:08 [cygri]
- another option: "col1=>col1", "col2=>col2"
- 16:42:18 [dmcneil]
- end up specifying what parts of SQL can and cannot be used, would rather not do this
- 16:42:28 [dmcneil]
- SQL is SQL, use whatever you want
- 16:42:37 [dmcneil]
- eric: doesn't that break use-cases for pushing queries down
- 16:42:53 [dmcneil]
- e.g. someone is unnecessarily using vendor extensions to declare part of a view
- 16:42:53 [mhausenblas]
- s/end up specifying/Ashok: end up specifying
- 16:42:58 [MacTed]
- Zakim, unmute me
- 16:42:58 [Zakim]
- MacTed should no longer be muted
- 16:43:04 [mhausenblas]
- s/SQL is SQL/Ashok: SQL is SQL
- 16:43:07 [mhausenblas]
- q?
- 16:43:14 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 16:43:14 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 16:43:35 [dmcneil]
- ted: vendor extensions cannot be stopped
- 16:43:55 [dmcneil]
- eric: can we get useful work done if we start parsing something but it has vendor extensions?
- 16:44:05 [dmcneil]
- ted: good product will do everything for $$$
- 16:44:21 [dmcneil]
- ashok: i was not talking about vendor extensions, but merely restricting SQL
- 16:44:47 [dmcneil]
- dmcneil: he means only allowing a subset of SQL in this property
- 16:44:51 [dmcneil]
- (i think)
- 16:45:50 [dmcneil]
- cygri: what we are doing with this join condition is making an explicit that a FK is to be used
- 16:45:59 [dmcneil]
- to join two tables
- 16:46:03 [dmcneil]
- where tables are logical tables
- 16:46:14 [dmcneil]
- but this only works if the FK constraint holds
- 16:46:53 [dmcneil]
- constraining the SQL here makes some sense becuase we are just doing a FK join, not a general cosntraint
- 16:46:57 [Souri]
- agree with Richard
- 16:47:13 [dmcneil]
- michael: ashok - do you have a concrete proposal?
- 16:47:21 [dmcneil]
- ashok: proposal is to allow full SQL syntax
- 16:47:32 [dmcneil]
- otherwise we need to document what you can and cannot do
- 16:47:37 [dmcneil]
- which is confusing
- 16:47:46 [dmcneil]
- also, not sure what we are buying with this
- 16:48:01 [dmcneil]
- but we can write complicated parsers
- 16:48:51 [dmcneil]
- cygri: the reason this is wierd is because we have a literal with something that looks like SQL, but really we didn't want to break the entire thing down into RDF
- 16:49:01 [dmcneil]
- proper way would be to model it as many triples in RDF
- 16:49:22 [Souri]
- if we limit to equality checks only, then conceptually, it could be a list of ordered pairs (for pure referential constrains, that is sufficient)
- 16:49:31 [dmcneil]
- instead of that we just use micro-syntax borrowed from SQL here
- 16:49:37 [cygri]
- rr:joinChild "parentID"; rr:joinParent "ID";
- 16:49:40 [dmcneil]
- maybe we should just bite the bullet and use RDF
- 16:50:15 [mhausenblas]
- q?
- 16:50:50 [cygri]
- rr:joinChild ("parentID1", "parentID2"); rr:joinParent ("ID1", "ID2);
- 16:50:57 [dmcneil]
- souri: could be a list of ordered pairs, the current spec is more flexible than this, but is it needed?
- 16:51:57 [dmcneil]
- michael: stepping back a bit, on ISSUE-32, are we ready to provide a proposal to resolve it with what richard proposed?
- 16:52:27 [dmcneil]
- cygri: i will volunteer to take an action to write a proposal to the list
- 16:52:37 [mhausenblas]
- ACTION: Richard to write up a proposal to resolve ISSUE-32 based on today's discussion
- 16:52:37 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-127 - Write up a proposal to resolve ISSUE-32 based on today's discussion [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-05-17].
- 16:53:00 [mhausenblas]
- ISSUE-34?
- 16:53:00 [trackbot]
- ISSUE-34 -- R2RML terminology: addressing vendor-specific names like "owner" -- open
- 16:53:00 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/34
- 16:53:38 [dmcneil]
- souri: this is about finding a non-vendor-specific term
- 16:54:13 [dmcneil]
- cygri: this requires looking into SQL spec to see what term is used there (that is one way of resolving it)
- 16:55:44 [mhausenblas]
- ISSUE-35?
- 16:55:44 [trackbot]
- ISSUE-35 -- Case sensitivity of SQL identifiers -- open
- 16:55:44 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/35
- 16:56:46 [dmcneil]
- dmcneil: r2rml should treat identifiers as db does
- 16:56:49 [dmcneil]
- ashok: i agree
- 16:56:49 [MacTed]
- which locks the R2RML you write today onto the DB engine you use today?
- 16:57:06 [dmcneil]
- cygri: mysql, by default they are not case sensitive, but special quotes makes them case sensitive
- 16:57:07 [MacTed]
- Zakim, unmute me
- 16:57:07 [Zakim]
- MacTed was not muted, MacTed
- 16:57:18 [dmcneil]
- souri: same in Oracle, "" makes them case sensitive
- 16:57:38 [dmcneil]
- cygri: would you use "" in R2RML?
- 16:57:40 [mhausenblas]
- q?
- 16:58:06 [dmcneil]
- ted: the quote character changes with engine, whether they exist changes with engine, canonical case changes with engine
- 16:58:29 [dmcneil]
- in most cases the engine will convert all identifiers to a canonical case until quote chars appear
- 16:58:40 [dmcneil]
- it is very hard to have a simple answer: do it this way
- 16:58:58 [dmcneil]
- this is why apps are written to universal APIs which translate to db specific manner
- 16:59:09 [Souri]
- q+
- 16:59:11 [dmcneil]
- by saying R2ML must match the engine we doom the implementors
- 16:59:26 [betehess]
- /me is more and more worried that R2RML won't be portable but tied to the underlying DB that is used. let's imagine if HTML was defined this way
- 16:59:32 [dmcneil]
- did we decide on full or core SQL?
- 17:00:11 [dmcneil]
- cygri: if you don't use pure SQL then you are not doing R2RML any more (?)
- 17:00:30 [mhausenblas]
- ack Souri
- 17:00:50 [cygri]
- MacTed: see http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/r2rml/#sql-conformance
- 17:00:56 [cygri]
- this is ISSUE-22
- 17:01:08 [dmcneil]
- souri: if user uses camel case, then we propagate that directly to database, up to db to interpret
- 17:01:14 [dmcneil]
- +q
- 17:01:23 [dmcneil]
- -q
- 17:01:33 [mhausenblas]
- q?
- 17:02:01 [mhausenblas]
- Michael: we MUST specify what SQL we're targeting - will take an action to update the UCR doc http://www.w3.org/TR/rdb2rdf-ucr/
- 17:02:01 [dmcneil]
- ted: oracle turns the identifiers to all caps unless they are quoted
- 17:02:33 [dmcneil]
- ted: could treat it as case insensitive unless it is quoted then treat it as case sensistive
- 17:03:09 [dmcneil]
- cygri: would you put the quotes in the Turtle representation of the mapping?
- 17:03:21 [Ashok]
- Do DB2 and SQLServer have the same rules re. identifiers?
- 17:03:44 [dmcneil]
- ted: user needs to add quotes to make it case sensitive
- 17:03:51 [dmcneil]
- if the engine fails then they need to change it
- 17:04:02 [dmcneil]
- cygri: in R2RML there are several places where values are column names
- 17:04:26 [dmcneil]
- ted: if those values are not quoted delimited then they are case insensitive
- 17:04:34 [cygri]
- rr:table "\"ThisIsQuotedTableName\"";
- 17:04:37 [dmcneil]
- the issue also has to do with sepcial chars, not just casing
- 17:04:37 [mhausenblas]
- ACTION: Hausenblas to find the resolution re what SQL and SPARQL we address and make this explicit core requirements in the UCR document
- 17:04:38 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-128 - Find the resolution re what SQL and SPARQL we address and make this explicit core requirements in the UCR document [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2011-05-17].
- 17:04:56 [mhausenblas]
- q?
- 17:05:01 [dmcneil]
- cygri: SQL and Turtle quoting are mixed together, but that is the price to pay
- 17:06:23 [dmcneil]
- cygri: in D2R quotes are not used, up to the implementation to figure it out, but doesn't work really well
- 17:06:35 [dmcneil]
- ted's proposal is really ugly but might be right
- 17:07:18 [dmcneil]
- souri: identifiers could also include special characters
- 17:07:20 [mhausenblas]
- q?
- 17:07:33 [dmcneil]
- that was one of the motivations for {}
- 17:08:01 [dmcneil]
- column names can have a space in them
- 17:08:44 [cygri]
- PROPOSAL: SQL identifiers in R2RML are case insensitive by default, and become case sensitive when enclosed in the DB engine's quote character. This should be noted in the spec as something we seek feedback on.
- 17:09:18 [MacTed]
- s/DB engine's quote character/R2RML delimiter (TBD)/
- 17:09:31 [dmcneil]
- PROPOSAL: SQL identifiers in R2RML are either case sensitive or insensitive (configurable) and become case sensitive when enclosed in an R2RML specified quote character
- 17:09:59 [Zakim]
- -Ivan
- 17:10:02 [dmcneil]
- ashok: does this agree with the SQL standard?
- 17:10:03 [Zakim]
- -Alexandre
- 17:10:10 [dmcneil]
- cygri: I think it matches what Oracle allows
- 17:10:14 [MacTed]
- "double-quote" is implementation specific
- 17:10:20 [dmcneil]
- would be good to double-check the spec
- 17:10:46 [dmcneil]
- ashok: I can find out about DB2 and SQL-Server
- 17:11:12 [dmcneil]
- ted: this should not be based on the engines, but should be based on the spec
- 17:11:43 [mhausenblas]
- ACTION: Ashok to check re DB2 and SQL-Server for ISSUE-35 (case sensitivity of SQL identifiers)
- 17:11:43 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-129 - Check re DB2 and SQL-Server for ISSUE-35 (case sensitivity of SQL identifiers) [on Ashok Malhotra - due 2011-05-17].
- 17:11:46 [dmcneil]
- ted: don't use db engines quote character because it is variable, there is a db call to get it, can be overriden by an app
- 17:12:08 [dmcneil]
- cygri: simplest case is to pass the queries as-is on to the engine
- 17:12:16 [dmcneil]
- ted: then let them get an error if it fails
- 17:12:25 [dmcneil]
- cygri: but simplest implementation should work
- 17:12:27 [dmcneil]
- +q
- 17:13:04 [mhausenblas]
- q?
- 17:13:20 [mhausenblas]
- ack dmcneil
- 17:14:01 [Souri]
- Another option: Could we prescribe a syntax for specifying case-sensitive column names in R2RML? Then we translate the mapping based upon the input and the target SQL engine.
- 17:14:16 [Zakim]
- -EricP
- 17:14:17 [Zakim]
- -dmcneil
- 17:14:17 [Zakim]
- -Ashok_Malhotra
- 17:14:18 [Zakim]
- -mhausenblas
- 17:14:18 [Zakim]
- -Seema
- 17:14:19 [Zakim]
- -MacTed
- 17:14:19 [Zakim]
- -Souri
- 17:14:21 [Zakim]
- -privera
- 17:14:21 [mhausenblas]
- [meeting adjourned]
- 17:14:25 [Zakim]
- -juansequeda
- 17:14:27 [Zakim]
- SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has ended
- 17:14:29 [Zakim]
- Attendees were alexdeleon, mhausenblas, Ivan, dmcneil, MacTed, Ashok_Malhotra, cygri, +575737aaaa, juansequeda, Souri, Seema, Alexandre, privera, EricP
- 17:16:13 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 17:16:13 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 17:19:13 [mhausenblas]
- trackbot, end telecon
- 17:19:13 [trackbot]
- Zakim, list attendees
- 17:19:13 [Zakim]
- sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
- 17:19:14 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 17:19:14 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-minutes.html trackbot
- 17:19:15 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 17:19:15 [RRSAgent]
- I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-actions.rdf :
- 17:19:15 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Ashok to draft Wiki page with LC sprint time line with Sep 2011 LC [1]
- 17:19:15 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-18-00
- 17:19:15 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Souri to implement ISSUE-18 resolution and make sure that all class and property names are meaningful [2]
- 17:19:15 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-35-00
- 17:19:15 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Richard to write up a proposal to resolve ISSUE-32 based on today's discussion [3]
- 17:19:15 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-52-37
- 17:19:15 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Hausenblas to find the resolution re what SQL and SPARQL we address and make this explicit core requirements in the UCR document [4]
- 17:19:15 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-irc#T17-04-37-1
- 17:19:15 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Ashok to check re DB2 and SQL-Server for ISSUE-35 (case sensitivity of SQL identifiers) [5]
- 17:19:15 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-rdb2rdf-irc#T17-11-43