IRC log of aapi on 2011-05-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:07:44 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #aapi

14:07:44 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/05-aapi-irc

14:07:54 [Andi]

rrsagent, make logs public

14:08:02 [Andi]

rrsagent, make log world

14:08:11 [Andi]

scribe: Andi

14:08:13 [Zakim]

+Cynthia_Shelly

14:08:39 [Andi]

zakim, +1.512.423.aaaa is Andi_Snow-Weaver

14:08:39 [Zakim]

+Andi_Snow-Weaver; got it

14:08:54 [Andi]

zakim, [Mozilla] is David_Bolter

14:08:54 [Zakim]

+David_Bolter; got it

14:09:39 [Andi]

topic: aria-activedescendant

14:10:14 [Andi]

DB: hard problem to talk about live

14:10:23 [Andi]

CS: think it's too complicated to do in e-mail

14:12:39 [Andi]

topic: bug 9656

14:14:27 [Andi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#presentation

14:16:35 [Andi]

DB: if aria-labelledby points to an element with role="presentation", is that an author error?

14:16:53 [Andi]

CS: no, seems similar to display none

14:17:13 [Andi]

DB: to me "presentation" means visual but not meaningful

14:17:35 [Andi]

zakim, mute me

14:17:35 [Zakim]

Andi_Snow-Weaver should now be muted

14:17:44 [Andi]

CS: maybe it is bad practice

14:17:53 [Andi]

DB: want to understand how people are using it

14:18:13 [Andi]

CS: not sure if it is, may just be something that came from a comment

14:18:31 [Andi]

CS: label for with display none on it is used fairly regularly

14:19:00 [Andi]

CS: aria-label is better for that but label for with display none is better for backward compatibility

14:20:18 [Andi]

zakim, unmute me

14:20:18 [Zakim]

Andi_Snow-Weaver should no longer be muted

14:21:06 [Andi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_additional_nd

14:22:28 [Andi]

zakim, mute me

14:22:28 [Zakim]

Andi_Snow-Weaver should now be muted

14:23:00 [Andi]

AS: name calculation doesn't say anything about not using aria-labelledby elements if they have role presentation

14:23:07 [Andi]

zakim, unmute me

14:23:07 [Zakim]

Andi_Snow-Weaver should no longer be muted

14:23:42 [Andi]

zakim, mute me

14:23:42 [Zakim]

Andi_Snow-Weaver should now be muted

14:24:13 [Andi]

AS: if using the accessibility tree for the calculation, the aria-labelledby element won't be there unless it is focusable

14:24:26 [Andi]

FF uses the accessibility tree, IE uses the DOM

14:24:53 [Andi]

zakim, unmute me

14:24:53 [Zakim]

Andi_Snow-Weaver should no longer be muted

14:25:40 [Andi]

AS: so FF won't find it in the accessibility tree unless it's focusable

14:26:08 [Andi]

DB: FF may use accessibility tree & DOM tree

14:27:20 [Andi]

DB: what does role="presentation" mean?

14:27:41 [Andi]

CS: to me it means turn it into a <div>

14:27:49 [Andi]

zakim, mute me

14:27:49 [Zakim]

Andi_Snow-Weaver should now be muted

14:28:26 [Andi]

chair: Cynthia_Shelly

14:30:01 [Andi]

DB: spec is confusing here "may be used to provide for an accessible fallback in older browsers that do not support WAI-ARIA."

14:31:03 [Andi]

CS: use case of menu being created with <ul> and <li>s that contain links

14:31:29 [Andi]

CS: <ul> gets role of menu, link gets role of menuitem, <li> gets role of presentation

14:32:24 [Andi]

DB: feels like an author error to me

14:32:39 [Andi]

CS: could put editorial note asking for feedback on valid use cases

14:33:22 [Andi]

DB: what about aria-labelledby that's pointing to something in a table with role presentation

14:33:48 [Andi]

zakim, unmute me

14:33:48 [Zakim]

Andi_Snow-Weaver should no longer be muted

14:34:14 [Andi]

AS: layout table sounds like a likely scenario

14:34:46 [Andi]

zakim, mute me

14:34:46 [Zakim]

Andi_Snow-Weaver should now be muted

14:35:08 [Andi]

DB: need to find out how people are using it

14:35:48 [Andi]

zakim, unmute me

14:35:48 [Zakim]

Andi_Snow-Weaver should no longer be muted

14:38:19 [Andi]

AS: if not changing the spec, can lower priority and won't impact Last Call or ARIA CR

14:38:39 [Andi]

AS: can ask James this morning what Safari is doing

14:39:07 [Andi]

CS: confirmed that IE ignores role presentation

14:39:34 [Andi]

CS: in the name calculation

14:40:18 [Zakim]

-Andi_Snow-Weaver

14:41:57 [Zakim]

-David_Bolter

14:41:59 [Zakim]

-Cynthia_Shelly

14:41:59 [Zakim]

WAI_PFWG(AAPI)10:00AM has ended

14:42:01 [Zakim]

Attendees were Cynthia_Shelly, Andi_Snow-Weaver, David_Bolter

15:13:46 [Andi]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:13:46 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/05-aapi-minutes.html Andi

15:13:51 [Andi]

zakim, bye

15:13:51 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #aapi

16:02:14 [MichaelC_SJO]

MichaelC_SJO has joined #aapi