IRC log of poiwg on 2010-12-15
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:07:52 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #poiwg
- 13:07:52 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-irc
- 13:07:54 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 13:07:54 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #poiwg
- 13:07:56 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be UW_POI
- 13:07:56 [Zakim]
- "UW_POI" matches UW_POI(POIFF)8:30AM, and UW_POI(POIWG)9:00AM, trackbot
- 13:07:57 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Points of Interest Working Group Teleconference
- 13:07:57 [trackbot]
- Date: 15 December 2010
- 13:15:40 [andy]
- andy has joined #poiwg
- 13:15:52 [andy]
- good morning
- 13:29:24 [alex__]
- alex__ has joined #poiwg
- 13:29:41 [Ronald]
- Ronald has joined #poiwg
- 13:30:29 [alex__]
- *
- 13:31:23 [danbri]
- danbri has joined #poiwg
- 13:32:28 [matt]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Use_Cases Use Cases
- 13:33:11 [Luca]
- Luca has joined #poiwg
- 13:35:11 [matt]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core_Principles Core Principles
- 13:36:56 [JonathanJ]
- JonathanJ has joined #poiwg
- 13:37:50 [JonathanJ]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 13:37:50 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ
- 13:41:22 [matt]
- Topic: Use Case Review
- 13:42:37 [matt]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core_Scope Scope chart
- 13:42:43 [Ronald]
- Alex: is a search for rich content (entrance fee) part of POI or is it a web search
- 13:43:46 [Ronald]
- gary: rich content out of scope
- 13:44:20 [Ronald]
- gary: only add it as extensible, but don't make it part of the POI core. Principle 10
- 13:44:38 [Ronald]
- Alex: how is rich data facilitated
- 13:45:10 [Ronald]
- gary: extension mechanism. it is up to the content provider
- 13:45:56 [Ronald]
- gary: let's go over all use cases and see what's in scope and what is out
- 13:46:36 [Ronald]
- gary: getting really rich content is a specialised effort with high cost
- 13:47:23 [Ronald]
- alex__: all search use cases are out of scope
- 13:48:22 [Ronald]
- gary: historical pricing information is not part of the spec, but extension supports it
- 13:49:06 [andy]
- andy has joined #poiwg
- 13:50:00 [Ronald]
- matt: we should look at one or two use cases and describe how it would be done
- 13:50:32 [Ronald]
- alex__: thinks it is a useful exercise, but not for the F2F
- 13:50:57 [Ronald]
- andy: concerned on why to adopt the standard
- 13:51:14 [Ronald]
- gary: standard does not enforce the business model
- 13:51:30 [Ronald]
- karl: standard helps in aggregating data
- 13:52:23 [Ronald]
- alex__: in an AR browser like Layar will benifit from a standard
- 13:52:43 [Ronald]
- s/benifit/benefit/
- 13:52:59 [matt]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 13:52:59 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html matt
- 13:53:52 [Ronald]
- karl: categorization will be proprietary, but knowing what field contains the category helps in mapping
- 13:54:50 [alex__]
- what is qdos?
- 13:54:50 [Ronald]
- gary: being the first to implement the W3C standard is good for your company
- 13:55:01 [Ronald]
- kudos
- 13:56:06 [Ronald]
- alex__: standardisation will help more people to create content
- 13:56:27 [Ronald]
- alex__: end value seems to lie in the extensibility, but we should not underestimate the power of the core
- 13:56:45 [Ronald]
- karl: separating of the location from the POI is useful
- 13:57:13 [matt]
- [[ I poked around looking for free/cheap YP databases, and I am distressed at how limited the data set is: ID, Categorie, SubCategorie, Name, Address, City, State, Postal Code, Phone, Fax.]]
- 13:57:40 [Ronald]
- gary: every current system embeds the location in the information, and it gave an editorial nightmare
- 13:57:48 [Ronald]
- s/gave/gives/
- 13:58:19 [Ronald]
- gary: POIs are human artifacts and can change, but locations are static
- 13:59:19 [Ronald]
- gary: principles are good, but it will take effort to flesh out the primitives provided in the principles
- 13:59:43 [Ronald]
- gary: we have a skeleton of a draft recommendation, but we have a lot to flesh out to get the draft recommendation
- 14:00:12 [matt]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Terminology Terminology
- 14:00:43 [Gary]
- Gary has joined #poiwg
- 14:00:53 [Ronald]
- matt: lets review terminology page and check if it fits the things we discussed
- 14:01:30 [Ronald]
- gary: should be an action for post F2F to reflect the new reality we defined
- 14:01:53 [Ronald]
- andy: are we done with the use cases
- 14:01:53 [matt]
- ACTION: Gary to scrub wiki and terminology pages to reflect consensus notion of location and place terms
- 14:01:54 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-23 - Scrub wiki and terminology pages to reflect consensus notion of location and place terms [on Gary Gale - due 2010-12-22].
- 14:02:10 [Ronald]
- alex__: no, let's go over them all
- 14:02:41 [Ronald]
- alex__: location is broader than the current definition, it is any type of attribute to define the location
- 14:03:05 [Ronald]
- alex__: computer vision might be used to detect the an object and use that as the location
- 14:03:22 [Ronald]
- karl: is it a landmark that can be recognized?
- 14:03:47 [Ronald]
- alex__: yes, but we may not care about the location, but we know that the object is in front of the user
- 14:05:20 [Ronald]
- gary: instead of computer vision, can we call it proximity sensor, as that covers much more
- 14:05:38 [matt]
- PROPOSED RESOLUTION: A location may be a number of things, including: wgs84 coords, civic address, a vector with absolute or relative positioning, minimum bounding rectangle, unknown, a 3d model, or (?? computer vision stuff)
- 14:08:27 [Ronald]
- gary: is proximity something we should include? it does not specify the location
- 14:09:17 [Ronald]
- gary: if you just use proximity, you still don't know your location. all you know is that you are close
- 14:12:40 [matt]
- PROPOSED RESOLUTION: A Proximity Sensor is something that determines the location of something else relative to the sensor.
- 14:12:50 [matt]
- Gary: No, it doesn't tell you the location, just distance
- 14:13:04 [matt]
- alex__: That's maybe a technological limitation that you're carying.
- 14:13:08 [matt]
- Gary: I think it's out of scope.
- 14:15:43 [matt]
- matt: I think we are all comfortable with wgs84, even if it is getting updated next year, addresses, a pain in the neck, but understood, going down the list? 3d model? proximity sensor? How do we pick what those are and how we represent them?
- 14:17:09 [matt]
- matt: Can we say something like "proximity" rather than "proximity sensors"? e.g. standardize on "I am within X meters of Foo_POI and Y meters of Bar_POI and Z meters of Bang_POI" -- what those POIs are -- bluetooth sensors, whatever -- is irrelevant.
- 14:17:58 [matt]
- scribe: Matt
- 14:18:34 [matt]
- Gary: With RFID you're saying things like "this parcel is now in this warehouse"
- 14:18:44 [matt]
- Gary: I'm okay with relative location.
- 14:18:49 [Ronald]
- Ronald has joined #poiwg
- 14:19:11 [matt]
- alex__: I don't care, if you open that door.
- 14:20:16 [matt]
- PROPOSED RESOLUTION: A location may be a number of things, including: wgs84 coords, civic address, a vector with absolute or relative positioning, minimum bounding rectangle, unknown, 3d model, TBD relative location spec
- 14:20:28 [matt]
- matt: Is an MBR just two WGS84 coords?
- 14:20:56 [matt]
- Gary: In it's pure form it's a spatial box with minimal information. Always two opposite corners. Using a positioning coordinate system.
- 14:21:21 [matt]
- Gary: In this world it's typically two Cartesian points relative to WGS84.
- 14:21:44 [matt]
- kseiler: The footprint and MBR seem similar, MBR being a subset of footprint.
- 14:22:36 [matt]
- alex__: I was going to flesh out extents for this meeting.
- 14:23:05 [cperey]
- cperey has joined #poiwg
- 14:23:10 [JonathanJ]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 14:23:10 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ
- 14:23:27 [matt]
- alex__: Extent and location are related in that it's you can derive a location from MBR extent.
- 14:23:28 [cperey]
- hello
- 14:23:32 [matt]
- Gary: sometimes it's all you have though.
- 14:23:45 [matt]
- alex__: The breakout may have real value though.
- 14:23:52 [matt]
- Gary: Extent I think is an attribute of location.
- 14:23:57 [cperey]
- dialing into Zakim
- 14:24:25 [matt]
- zakim, dial matt-voip
- 14:24:25 [Zakim]
- sorry, matt, I don't know what conference this is
- 14:24:29 [matt]
- zakim, this is poiff
- 14:24:29 [Zakim]
- ok, matt; that matches UW_POI(POIFF)8:30AM
- 14:24:31 [matt]
- zakim, dial matt-voip
- 14:24:31 [Zakim]
- ok, matt; the call is being made
- 14:24:32 [Zakim]
- + +1.617.848.aaaa
- 14:25:02 [matt]
- zakim, dial matt-voip
- 14:25:02 [Zakim]
- ok, matt; the call is being made
- 14:25:03 [Zakim]
- - +1.617.848.aaaa
- 14:25:03 [Zakim]
- + +1.617.848.aaaa
- 14:25:04 [Zakim]
- +Matt
- 14:25:20 [cperey]
- zakim, I am 617.848.aaaa
- 14:25:20 [Zakim]
- sorry, cperey, I do not see a party named '617.848.aaaa'
- 14:25:27 [matt]
- zakim, aaaa is cperey
- 14:25:27 [Zakim]
- +cperey; got it
- 14:25:36 [matt]
- zakim, who is speaking?
- 14:25:47 [Zakim]
- matt, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
- 14:25:48 [matt]
- zakim, Matt is POIFF
- 14:25:49 [Zakim]
- +POIFF; got it
- 14:26:09 [matt]
- zakim, POIFF has Karl, Andy, Matt, Ronald, Luca, Jonathan, Gary, Alex
- 14:26:09 [Zakim]
- +Karl, Andy, Matt, Ronald, Luca, Jonathan, Gary, Alex; got it
- 14:26:12 [matt]
- zakim, who is speaking?
- 14:26:28 [Zakim]
- matt, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
- 14:29:23 [cperey]
- +q
- 14:29:38 [cperey]
- yes! I hear you
- 14:29:51 [cperey]
- I was listening!
- 14:30:21 [matt]
- cperey: I sent a message to the list saying it's sometimes absolute and sometimes relative.
- 14:30:24 [matt]
- ack next
- 14:31:16 [cperey]
- location is a point in place. three dimensional world
- 14:31:30 [cperey]
- can be absolute. can be relative and can be inferred
- 14:31:38 [cperey]
- +1 on that last statement
- 14:31:46 [matt]
- alex__: Location is a point in space somewhere with an extent around
- 14:31:49 [cperey]
- technologies which can be used to infer where you are from other data
- 14:31:52 [matt]
- Gary: They can be relative and infered.
- 14:32:06 [cperey]
- used as a feedback cycle to verify the veracity of the data you have received
- 14:32:16 [cperey]
- relative to some frame of reference
- 14:32:32 [cperey]
- but you also have to have explicitly called out so that it is workable
- 14:32:58 [cperey]
- if we start throwing around semantic terms such as relative, we will ignore it. Real world workable
- 14:33:35 [cperey]
- gary says: sure, you could argue that location is a relative system, but include that it includes relative frames of reference to other points, potential, to oursevelves, to a device, or relatie to an adress
- 14:33:42 [matt]
- alex__: We need to codify that it can be relative to things via proximity, or relative like an address, or 100 meters from blue house.
- 14:34:05 [cperey]
- as long as we agree that we have relative frames of reference...
- 14:34:24 [matt]
- alex__: While we're deep in location, let's talk about this notion of where is something.
- 14:34:44 [matt]
- alex__: The driveway to the McDonalds really matters, but some people would argue it's just part of going to McDonalds and it's just extra data.
- 14:34:48 [cperey]
- Karl said (recapping) is this notion of where is something (discussion about driveway to McDonalds) is just a part of something ELSE, the "extra" data
- 14:35:16 [matt]
- alex__: How are we going to codify these things as they get more complex?
- 14:35:32 [matt]
- alex__: I say we associate them with further points of interest.
- 14:35:47 [cperey]
- Alex feels we should go with basic principle that there is no short list...a POI is any place you would want to go
- 14:36:35 [matt]
- PROPOSED RESOLUTION: A location may be a number of things, including: wgs84 coords, civic address, a vector with absolute or relative positioning info, a minimum bounding rectangle, unknown, a 3d model w/wgs84 or TBD relative location spec,
- 14:37:04 [matt]
- Gary: Yesterday I tried to push name into location, but we decided location is where it is, everything else is in this other bag called place
- 14:37:10 [matt]
- s/Gary/Karl/
- 14:37:29 [matt]
- Karl: Place is the bag for everything else: names, locations, ids, etc.
- 14:37:45 [matt]
- alex__: We think this method is maybe how increasing fidelity is dealt with.
- 14:38:11 [matt]
- alex__: It's a bit scary how much data there will be.
- 14:38:20 [matt]
- andy: Didn't we eliminate known or unknown?
- 14:38:27 [matt]
- s/known or//
- 14:38:52 [matt]
- karl: Maybe a business is forming, but has no location yet. Can it have a POI?
- 14:39:55 [matt]
- alex__: There's some semantics on pointers being null, whatever, but what's important here is if Alex's office is contained within the TSRB and it exists as a POI, is it okay that it's location is unspecified further.
- 14:40:38 [matt]
- alex__: Maybe it has no parent and has no location it has little value, but they exist.
- 14:41:16 [matt]
- andy: Example?
- 14:41:27 [matt]
- alex__: A welcome message.
- 14:41:58 [cperey]
- this has a location, I simply don't know where it is at the moment
- 14:42:04 [cperey]
- this was suggestion by Matt
- 14:42:13 [cperey]
- still come back to the loosey goosey of the word POI
- 14:42:15 [matt]
- matt: I think there is value to having an "unknown" location rather than just no location.
- 14:42:38 [cperey]
- place vs. stuff
- 14:43:04 [matt]
- karl: McDonalds a store vs McDonalds as a whole thing. One is a place the other isn't.
- 14:43:36 [matt]
- alex__: My car for instance, I can tell where it is until I'm in a tunnel. Then I could probably guess with low accuracy that I'm still on earth. Place seems a bit rigid.
- 14:44:27 [matt]
- alex__: A person, place, or thing -- there are extremes that make your hair stand up, but there are real things like OnStar trying to find my car, then there are places that might not have a known location.
- 14:45:10 [matt]
- Gary: I don't see why there isn't a way for people to create things from places that we've described here, but I think it's a minimal edge case. So minimal we should move on. No reason you can't do this, I would question why, and if you wanted to, you wouldn't call them places.
- 14:45:17 [cperey]
- NO this is not all about places
- 14:45:40 [cperey]
- that is a negative attitude
- 14:45:46 [cperey]
- on the contrary
- 14:45:53 [cperey]
- AR is very general topic
- 14:46:19 [cperey]
- thank you, Alex
- 14:46:22 [matt]
- Gary: This is the POI working group, so we're about places.
- 14:46:33 [matt]
- matt: I see no reason why we shouldn't be working towards such a thing.
- 14:46:42 [cperey]
- let's not hamstring to the point where people can't use it that way
- 14:46:46 [cperey]
- we're not creating the theory of stuff
- 14:46:53 [matt]
- alex__: Let's not hamstring it so that it can't be done this way.
- 14:46:55 [matt]
- Gary: We're not creating ethereal stuff, we're agreeing on what a place is.
- 14:46:56 [cperey]
- we're creating a workable definition of ...
- 14:47:16 [matt]
- Gary: We agreed on what a place is yesterday.
- 14:47:19 [cperey]
- I didn't see that agreement
- 14:47:20 [matt]
- matt: I think unknown location is still key.
- 14:47:28 [cperey]
- was it sent out to the list?
- 14:47:41 [matt]
- Gary: We have to have temporal and unknown locations sure.
- 14:48:06 [matt]
- Gary: We have to say the location is unspecified/unknown.
- 14:48:48 [matt]
- alex__: I want to make sure the door isn't slammed in the face of these esoteric use cases.
- 14:49:10 [matt]
- andy: I would prefer we didn't say they're esoteric, I think there's far more use cases for stuff than places.
- 14:49:19 [matt]
- Gary: But this isn't the stuff WG.
- 14:49:34 [matt]
- Gary: We're not here building a data model of everything in the world and their relationships.
- 14:50:02 [matt]
- andy: I think the movie poster is a POI and it has an unspecified location.
- 14:50:16 [matt]
- Gary: I'm saying it is too, but it has to explicitly have an unspecified location. If you make it optional --
- 14:50:18 [matt]
- andy: I think that's fine.
- 14:50:28 [matt]
- alex__: The movie poster is in front of you, it is a location.
- 14:50:33 [matt]
- andy: It's just not important.
- 14:50:45 [matt]
- alex__: It is. Someone could walk in front of it and the information goes away.
- 14:51:07 [cperey]
- +q
- 14:51:11 [matt]
- alex__: If you take out where it is, just recognize that there is a movie poster, then go to a website, that's not a POI.
- 14:51:33 [matt]
- alex__: POI is about where it exists in the world.
- 14:51:50 [matt]
- andy: The location advertising use case.
- 14:51:52 [matt]
- ack next
- 14:52:30 [JonathanJ]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 14:52:30 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ
- 14:52:36 [matt]
- cperey: Wanted to suggest that if important things to go to the list please.
- 14:53:23 [cperey]
- thanks matt :-)
- 14:53:24 [matt]
- andy: In location based advertising, pushed info or whatever, those have locations?
- 14:53:35 [matt]
- alex__: They do matter where you are.
- 14:53:44 [cperey]
- this is exciting and I understand 100%
- 14:53:47 [matt]
- alex__: Those are about POIs definitely.
- 14:53:53 [cperey]
- I would rather you SCRIBE
- 14:53:59 [matt]
- karl: What's the point? To drive you to the store front.
- 14:54:02 [cperey]
- than pay attention to me
- 14:54:03 [matt]
- s/front./front?/
- 14:54:17 [matt]
- gary: Geofence advertising is based on position, proximity and your movable point and radius.
- 14:54:55 [matt]
- gary: a geo-fence is not a place, it's a boundary trigger.
- 14:55:25 [matt]
- gary: What we're doing here with place intersects with boundary, and geo-fencing and boundaries intersect on the other side, but doesn't imply that geo advertising is part of place.
- 14:56:53 [matt]
- Gary: You may utilize a place based repository to figure out where the geo boundary occurs, e.g. these POIs for Arbys are here, and the geo-fence is therefore around them.
- 14:57:25 [matt]
- Gary: We said Chicago is a place, but it's an abstraction. I don't think you are going to stop people from creating abstract places with this spec.
- 14:57:54 [matt]
- Gary: But it doesn't mean it's part of geo based advertising. You can setup a fence without knowing the place: just the vector that describes it.
- 14:59:23 [matt]
- alex__: Is it unreasonable to have a Theater District described by this spec to then fire off a coupon?
- 14:59:39 [matt]
- Gary: Yes, but place is not fundamental to the concept of location based advertising. Place is just one tool to define a geofence.
- 15:00:20 [matt]
- alex__: If people use this spec for this, do we need some other construct to achieve that or can they use/abuse POI to do that?
- 15:00:33 [matt]
- Gary: You can create Karl's geofence.
- 15:01:15 [matt]
- Gary: Going back to small granular POIs: we can create a place for this table in this room, and you can say I'm going to derive a geofence from that place. That will fire whenever I'm within a foot of this table. I know it's a place, I know it's extent, I've got a vector that describes it's shape.
- 15:01:58 [matt]
- Gary: Within a meter, it sets off a coupon or whatever. But as an advertiser, I can make a vector trace somehow [walks around table], I don't need the table to create it, the table is just a stepping stone.
- 15:02:16 [matt]
- Gary: One is a tool to create the other.
- 15:03:11 [matt]
- Gary: The point is you can have a geofence without a place.
- 15:03:55 [matt]
- Gary: Most geotargetted advertising looks at say, newspaper press zones and those zones have these zips, and then aggregate those together and make the vector and then target those.
- 15:04:54 [cperey]
- haha!! funny
- 15:05:02 [cperey]
- what has happened?
- 15:05:28 [cperey]
- Hi Matt
- 15:05:36 [cperey]
- can you take me off speaker so I can speak with you?
- 15:14:59 [JonathanJ]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 15:14:59 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ
- 15:19:33 [matt]
- [[Walking through Informational Use Cases]]
- 15:19:44 [matt]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Use_Cases#Informational
- 15:19:48 [matt]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 15:19:48 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html matt
- 15:20:27 [matt]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Use_Cases#Augmented_Reality AR Use Cases
- 15:20:48 [matt]
- alex__: People mention XMPP, but I don't see anything that changes to our data format based on transport.
- 15:20:51 [matt]
- Ronald: Agreed.
- 15:21:11 [matt]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Use_Cases#B2B B2B use cases
- 15:21:35 [matt]
- alex__: Sounds like this is a use case for richer names?
- 15:21:47 [matt]
- Gary: Sounds like a specialization/expansion of the name primitive.
- 15:23:01 [matt]
- Andy: Text strings much have language code.
- 15:23:22 [matt]
- matt: xml:lang?
- 15:23:29 [matt]
- Gary: No, the ISO code.
- 15:24:05 [matt]
- -> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/bcp/bcp47.txt Language codes from IETF
- 15:24:24 [matt]
- Gary: I would say any text field is UTF-8 and the text is an aggregate structure of text and language code.
- 15:25:42 [matt]
- karl: I think we're fleshing out what the name primitive is.
- 15:25:50 [matt]
- karl: I think we should also consider a label.
- 15:26:02 [cperey]
- I like label, but express that as a "trigger"
- 15:26:04 [cperey]
- +q
- 15:26:27 [matt]
- karl: Common name, etc, different names for the same thing.
- 15:26:53 [matt]
- alex__: I was assuming from the get go that name would subsume that. That we don't need another field for that sort of thing.
- 15:26:59 [matt]
- karl: Name consists of a UTF string plus a language code and a label.
- 15:27:20 [matt]
- Gary: Normalized form of the address could be used to populate the name primitive.
- 15:27:36 [cperey]
- is this an IETF classification code topic?
- 15:28:51 [Ronald]
- Ronald has joined #poiwg
- 15:29:01 [cperey]
- I want to wait until I have the floor :-/
- 15:29:11 [matt]
- Gary:180 Lunvaden Straße and 180 Lunvaden Strasse and 180 Lunvaden Str are all the same thing.
- 15:29:44 [matt]
- karl: We need the name, the language code, and then there are all sorts of vanity addresses that exist.
- 15:30:04 [matt]
- ack next
- 15:30:54 [matt]
- Gary: There are all sorts of valid names, maybe we need a textual primitive, a unicode text string together with the language code that is then used.
- 15:31:06 [Gary]
- It's Invalidenstraße by the way :-)
- 15:34:08 [andy]
- andy has joined #poiwg
- 15:35:26 [matt]
- alex__: If a POI establishes that there is something at a location, or somewhere, it has an extent, I might bump into it or say something to it or whatever. So, what defines the interactivity between me and it. A div on a website that's clicked for instance is a trigger. So what's the trigger mechanism between my behavior and POIs?
- 15:35:42 [matt]
- alex__: I think that Christine was saying that there be some linkage between the name/label and triggers.
- 15:35:45 [cperey]
- Yes, I was asking if there
- 15:35:47 [cperey]
- is a connection
- 15:36:03 [JonathanJ]
- we need to consider the I18N(Internationalization) of POI. Ref: http://www.w3.org/International/
- 15:36:16 [cperey]
- but a little bit no!
- 15:36:22 [matt]
- Gary: Isn't that an application level thing?
- 15:36:28 [matt]
- alex__: It's on the borderline of being out of scope.
- 15:36:41 [cperey]
- if you define a label/extensions, then you have to be able to use the extensions
- 15:36:58 [matt]
- alex__: There's extensions and extensibility for things down the line for AR, but it's not obvious to me that it needs to be built in.
- 15:37:08 [matt]
- Gary: That seems like a business specific specialization.
- 15:37:53 [matt]
- Gary: Does this trigger metadata be part of the place itself? It's one way you'd facilitate discovery of the data based on this, but it is but one of a multitude of business specific specializations. It could almost be a use case.
- 15:38:44 [matt]
- alex__: On one hand it sounds like geofencing. There's information within a POI that would facilitate that, but there is also other information that may help. There's a tacit implication that the discovery will come from things like a geospatial search. The notion of a trigger could get more rich down the line.
- 15:39:03 [matt]
- alex__: Imagine a future where a proximity searched doesn't matter, but what I can see is the search.
- 15:39:07 [matt]
- karl: That's not even the future.
- 15:39:15 [matt]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 15:39:15 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html matt
- 15:39:40 [matt]
- alex__: We should consider whether what we're putting forward can handle that. Right now I'm inclined to say it can.
- 15:40:02 [cperey]
- Matt I need to change phones. I'll hang up and dial back in
- 15:40:03 [matt]
- alex__: If only information a POI has is lat/lng coordinates, you can't do that type of search, but with richer info you can do different types of searches.
- 15:44:16 [Zakim]
- -cperey
- 15:45:36 [cperey]
- OK matt
- 15:45:39 [cperey]
- are you ready?
- 15:45:55 [cperey]
- BTW, I stayed on line and heard the discussion between Alex and Gary
- 15:46:34 [Zakim]
- +cperey
- 15:46:36 [Zakim]
- -cperey
- 15:46:36 [Zakim]
- +cperey
- 15:46:52 [cperey]
- point to someone else for what?
- 15:46:57 [andy]
- andy has joined #poiwg
- 15:47:01 [Ronald]
- address representation
- 15:47:12 [cperey]
- that sounds important for me to have heard
- 15:47:35 [cperey]
- will those standards bodies be at the International AR Standards meeting in Feb?
- 15:47:47 [cperey]
- IETF
- 15:47:56 [cperey]
- they have 50 fields
- 15:48:21 [cperey]
- complicated, GeoLocation WG decided on 12 fields
- 15:51:47 [cperey]
- If I ask for POI and I get back a string, I get the POI from the string, I have to hand it off to a service to do anything with it
- 15:51:57 [cperey]
- if , at that data exchange level, have we created enough?
- 15:52:11 [cperey]
- we (NOkia) have to GeoCode official address and relative addresses
- 15:53:45 [cperey]
- you are telling me rightnow, if I have a normalized text string, there's enough information in that.
- 15:53:59 [cperey]
- there's some service which I can start talking to to get more detailed informatoin (Alex)
- 15:54:10 [cperey]
- is that Karl?
- 15:54:12 [cperey]
- or who?
- 15:54:18 [andy]
- yes
- 15:54:22 [andy]
- karl
- 15:54:31 [cperey]
- Alex: when you say preferred service you mean, what exactly?
- 15:54:58 [cperey]
- Alex: this is a big issue. I have some data. Now I want more, what do I do?
- 15:55:10 [cperey]
- Alex: I got a POI, great, but I really want more...What happens?
- 15:55:24 [cperey]
- Karl: we had it at too high a level. You want URIs for ???
- 15:55:32 [cperey]
- chop chop (can't hear)
- 15:55:44 [cperey]
- who is scribing?
- 15:56:11 [cperey]
- thanks matt
- 15:56:13 [matt]
- karl: I'm trying to get in the spec a URI primitive so that someone can attach a service to a piece of data.
- 15:56:25 [matt]
- alex__: Other bodies must have tackled this issue.
- 15:56:45 [cperey]
- cperey agrees with alex_
- 15:57:02 [matt]
- Gary: Isn't this the same problem as going to the post office and you end up shoe-horning another countries address format into the form? I appreciate the sentiment, but isn't it meaningless except to other implementors who implement it the same way.
- 15:57:21 [matt]
- karl: I was thinking every primitive could have a URI attached to it.
- 15:57:46 [matt]
- karl: All of the primitives have an URI, and then when looking at an address you could use the URI to render that address.
- 15:57:53 [matt]
- karl: (render, geocode, whatever)
- 15:57:54 [JonathanJ]
- +1
- 15:58:13 [matt]
- karl: You give this URI the address and I'll give you a fully extricated location.
- 15:58:29 [matt]
- alex__: I give you a link for say a car, and you could use a URI to find where the car is?
- 15:58:52 [matt]
- karl: It's like the category primitive. You could get more info about it when using the URI.
- 15:59:40 [matt]
- alex__: My hesitancy is similar to my hesitancy to adding timestamps. It's a potential explosion of the data model. I agree whole heartedly with the notion, but I hope we can find a more succinct way than tacking on all over the place.
- 15:59:55 [matt]
- karl: I have the same comment on ID. What is it?
- 15:59:58 [cperey]
- I"m signing off
- 16:00:01 [cperey]
- bye
- 16:00:04 [JonathanJ]
- In Korea, we are developing a spec for one of idea that like the Physical Object Identifier
- 16:00:05 [Zakim]
- -cperey
- 16:00:11 [matt]
- zakim, drop me
- 16:00:11 [Zakim]
- sorry, matt, I do not see a party named 'matt'
- 16:00:15 [matt]
- zakim, drop POIFF
- 16:00:15 [Zakim]
- POIFF is being disconnected
- 16:00:16 [Zakim]
- UW_POI(POIFF)8:30AM has ended
- 16:00:17 [Zakim]
- Attendees were +1.617.848.aaaa, cperey, Karl, Andy, Matt, Ronald, Luca, Jonathan, Gary, Alex
- 16:00:39 [matt]
- zakim, aaaa was cperey
- 16:00:39 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'aaaa was cperey', matt
- 16:00:45 [matt]
- zakim, aaaa is cperey
- 16:00:45 [Zakim]
- sorry, matt, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
- 16:01:19 [matt]
- andy: Would each bit have a uri?
- 16:01:21 [matt]
- karl: Yes.
- 16:01:24 [matt]
- matt: Sounds like RDF.
- 16:01:26 [matt]
- karl: Yes.
- 16:01:37 [matt]
- alex__: We're a bit under-represented for experts in some of this stuff.
- 16:02:44 [matt]
- matt: Lots of participants that will help us. We can also get it out for review...
- 16:02:50 [JonathanJ]
- our idea of Physical Object Identifier, like URN - http://bit.ly/i7DTK4
- 16:02:52 [matt]
- alex__: Tidy this up now?
- 16:14:59 [andy]
- ok
- 16:19:15 [matt]
- Chair: Andy
- 16:19:40 [matt]
- Present: Karl, Andy, Matt, Ronald, Luca, Jonathan, Gary, Alex, Christine
- 16:19:44 [matt]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 16:19:44 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html matt
- 16:20:28 [matt]
- i/Scope chart/Scribe: Ronald/
- 16:20:35 [matt]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 16:20:35 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html matt
- 16:28:41 [matt]
- Topic: Document Drafting
- 16:28:52 [matt]
- andy: The principles are the starting point for now.
- 16:29:02 [matt]
- alex__: Summarize what we've talked about in the principles.
- 16:30:04 [matt]
- matt: There's no fixed format beyond the header, Status of the Document section, ToC and references. I'm happy to work on it in a wiki and then I'll turn it into a spec looking doc.
- 16:30:36 [matt]
- karl: In the full doc, will we have the principles, the use cases, etc?
- 16:30:47 [matt]
- s/etc/data model, etc/
- 16:30:55 [matt]
- andy: Those things, maybe use cases are in there.
- 16:31:32 [matt]
- alex__: What's the name?
- 16:31:49 [matt]
- matt: POI Core Recommendation
- 16:31:56 [matt]
- alex__: And do these have the use cases in them typically?
- 16:32:14 [matt]
- matt: Some times in the doc, sometimes separate Note, sometimes just a web page that's referenced.
- 16:32:23 [matt]
- karl: We can have them, put them in an appendix, whatever.
- 16:32:37 [matt]
- alex__: We can have examples that demonstrate a typical use case that we'd have.
- 16:32:47 [matt]
- alex__: i.e. a typical POI with a wgs84 location, name, etc.
- 16:33:58 [matt]
- Gary: How do we document the data model with examples unless we chose some normalized XML schema that we knock together.
- 16:34:16 [matt]
- alex__: We're not going to XML out an example today.
- 16:35:41 [matt]
- alex__: We agree there's an example section.
- 16:36:17 [andy]
- andy has joined #poiwg
- 16:36:53 [andy]
- minutes will be replaced by live wiki updates
- 16:43:19 [JonathanJ]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 16:43:19 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ
- 17:19:47 [andy]
- andy has joined #poiwg
- 18:04:21 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #poiwg
- 18:23:29 [matt]
- [[Discussion about what serialization we'll have, whether we should rely on XML, IDL, etc, or refer to those in normative appendicies as serializations]]
- 18:27:41 [Ronald]
- \me pong
- 18:28:13 [Ronald]
- s/\me pong//
- 18:33:49 [JonathanJ]
- Demo Link: http://x3dom.org/x3dom/example/flar/x3dom_flar.html
- 18:33:49 [JonathanJ]
- draft of AR Landscape : http://bit.ly/hgjzU7
- 18:33:49 [JonathanJ]
- Today's presentation file: http://www.w3c.or.kr/~hollobit/presentation/20101215-W3C-hollobit-r1.pdf
- 18:53:54 [matt]
- Topic: AR landscape
- 18:54:11 [matt]
- [[Jonathan presents demo and slides]]
- 18:54:24 [matt]
- matt: I think we'd like people to volunteer to help.
- 18:54:40 [matt]
- Ronald: I can fill in some information about the European offerings.
- 18:54:43 [matt]
- alex__: I can contribute too.
- 18:55:12 [matt]
- alex__: The AR Tagging struck me as specific.
- 18:55:28 [matt]
- alex__: You could imagine AR balloons, or new construction, or a tweet over your head.
- 18:55:36 [matt]
- s/AR Tag/Air Tag/
- 18:55:47 [matt]
- alex__: Maybe something a bit more generic than Air Tagging, like "user generated content"
- 18:55:54 [matt]
- alex__: Addressing user interaction -- UI is a big issue.
- 18:56:26 [matt]
- alex__: Some capabilities discovery needed -- processing power to run FLAR type stuff.
- 18:56:54 [matt]
- alex__: I would point you at a paper we submitted to ISMAR that wasn't accepted. I can send that to you.
- 18:57:17 [matt]
- alex__: I think it is valuable for someone to survey the existing technologies.
- 18:57:27 [matt]
- alex__: Not a big list: feature tracking, marker tracking, GPS tracking.
- 18:57:38 [matt]
- Ronald: What does it support on those levels?
- 18:58:06 [matt]
- alex__: That's useful, but to me the interesting part is how people author this? How do they describe what they want to do? Is it interoperable?
- 18:58:47 [matt]
- alex__: We need AR to become something like the Web, where I can put up content and people will be able to consume it.
- 18:58:56 [matt]
- Ronald: I think the survey should focus on those aspects.
- 18:59:13 [matt]
- Ronald: I'm not sure how FLAR or marker based AR fits in. Are you going to put them all into one class?
- 18:59:31 [matt]
- Ronald: Or are you really targeting the platforms, the browsers, those with lots of content?
- 19:00:03 [matt]
- alex__: When I saw the demo at the AR Standards workshop it was on a handheld. The X3D stuff seems oriented towards making this work on mobile devices.
- 19:00:25 [matt]
- alex__: A lot of the conversation with Khronos involved low level device protocols.
- 19:00:43 [matt]
- alex__: Nokia had a camera spec, etc.
- 19:01:00 [matt]
- alex__: There is this whole stack from low level to high.
- 19:01:12 [matt]
- Ronald: Important for us to look at these initiatives.
- 19:01:23 [matt]
- Ronald: There's lots of platforms that would benefit from such a standard.
- 19:01:49 [matt]
- alex__: When we're looking at AR here, are we talking mobile or desktop?
- 19:01:54 [matt]
- JonathanJ: No, AR on the Web
- 19:04:19 [matt]
- alex__: Standardization will be coming from the mobile direction, rather than HMDs, desktops, etc.
- 19:04:26 [matt]
- Ronald: Agreed, and we'd definitely help support this.
- 19:05:37 [matt]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 19:05:37 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html matt
- 19:06:00 [Ronald]
- Ronald has joined #poiwg
- 19:06:27 [matt]
- Topic: Next Steps
- 19:06:35 [Luca]
- Luca has joined #poiwg
- 19:06:52 [matt]
- andy: Next teleconference is 5 January.
- 19:06:54 [matt]
- andy: Next face to face location?
- 19:06:58 [matt]
- andy: Western Europe?
- 19:07:38 [matt]
- Gary: I could look at hosting in Berlin.
- 19:07:57 [matt]
- matt: Just want to establish that next TPAC is November in North America, do we want to do some rotation?
- 19:08:15 [matt]
- andy: Maybe first week of April?
- 19:08:55 [matt]
- ACTION: Andy to propose next F2F April in Berlin
- 19:08:56 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-24 - Propose next F2F April in Berlin [on Andrew Braun - due 2010-12-22].
- 19:11:00 [matt]
- matt: Sounds like we'll meet at TPAC.
- 19:11:14 [matt]
- gary: I think if we meet again in March we'll be pretty much there and ready to close in November.
- 19:11:19 [matt]
- s/gary/Karl/
- 19:11:57 [matt]
- Gary: One in Berlin in March/April, another in November in N. America, and maybe survey the mailing list for one in between with the summer vacation caveat.
- 19:12:58 [matt]
- Gary: Maybe get people to detail their commitments, so we can narrow down dates, e.g. Nokia World, Web 2.0, etc.
- 19:13:23 [matt]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 19:13:23 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html matt
- 19:14:49 [matt]
- Andy: Meeting Adjourned!
- 19:14:54 [matt]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 19:14:54 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/15-poiwg-minutes.html matt