IRC log of forms on 2010-11-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:40:18 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #forms
15:40:18 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/10-forms-irc
15:40:20 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:40:20 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #forms
15:40:22 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
15:40:22 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
15:40:23 [trackbot]
Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
15:40:23 [trackbot]
Date: 10 November 2010
15:56:49 [pfennell]
pfennell has joined #forms
15:58:59 [nick]
nick has joined #forms
15:59:14 [nick]
zakim, code?
15:59:14 [Zakim]
the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), nick
15:59:58 [pfennell]
I'll be on the call in the next five minutes.
16:00:10 [Zakim]
IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
16:00:17 [Zakim]
+??P9
16:00:30 [nick]
zakim, I am ??P9
16:00:30 [Zakim]
+nick; got it
16:00:44 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
16:00:44 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
16:00:45 [Zakim]
+Steven
16:01:35 [Steven]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Nov/0010.html
16:01:53 [Steven]
Regrets: Erik, Uli
16:03:15 [Zakim]
+Leigh_Klotz
16:04:47 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer has joined #forms
16:05:25 [John_Boyer]
zakim, code?
16:05:25 [Zakim]
the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), John_Boyer
16:05:31 [Zakim]
+John_Boyer
16:06:53 [Zakim]
-nick
16:07:10 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:07:21 [nick]
zakim, I'm IPCaller
16:07:21 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'I'm IPCaller', nick
16:07:25 [Steven]
zakim, [IP is nick
16:07:25 [Zakim]
+nick; got it
16:07:39 [Steven]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:40 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Steven, Leigh_Klotz, John_Boyer, nick
16:08:16 [klotz]
zakim, who is choppy?
16:08:16 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, klotz.
16:09:02 [John_Boyer]
bind nodeset="age" constraint=". <= 65"
16:09:16 [John_Boyer]
bind nodeset="age" constraint=". >= 18"
16:10:18 [John_Boyer]
bind nodeset="age" constraint=". >= 18" alert="You must be at least 18"
16:10:30 [John_Boyer]
and similarly alert="you must be less than or equal to 65"
16:11:12 [John_Boyer]
just for illustrative purposes
16:12:03 [Zakim]
+ +44.782.483.aaaa
16:12:22 [Steven]
zakim, aaaa is pfennell
16:12:22 [Zakim]
+pfennell; got it
16:12:27 [John_Boyer]
Nick and Leigh: need a way to separate UI from presentation
16:12:37 [klotz]
<bind nodeset="age" constraint=". &gt;= 65 ""you must be less than or equal to 65 >
16:13:25 [John_Boyer]
Steven: I feel a similar problem with select/select1, where we hardwire esp. values in the UI where they should be in the model
16:14:02 [John_Boyer]
Steven: This is the other direction but similar in that you have to repeat yourself at both UI and model levels
16:14:18 [John_Boyer]
Steven: part of a larger story about separation of model and UI
16:16:04 [John_Boyer]
Leigh: If you had the xforms-invalid event that included the bind ID of the constraint that failed,
16:16:17 [John_Boyer]
Leigh: not necessarily xforms-invalid
16:16:43 [John_Boyer]
John: breaks because alert not tied to xforms-invalid
16:18:45 [John_Boyer]
John: but logical equivalent of css pseudo-class is something we're free to implement as being always correct, and so it can be tied to whether you show the alert
16:20:26 [John_Boyer]
If you go from invalid because of input 17 to invalid because of input 67, then you don't get an xforms-invalid because the UI control goes from invalid to invalid
16:21:20 [John_Boyer]
Steven: that needs fixing
16:25:38 [Steven]
It is a result of us considering invalidity as a monolithic property
16:25:43 [John_Boyer]
John: you could get xforms-invalid with two different context infos, then that would conflict with UI events improvements, which are attempting to eliminate duplicate versions of such events
16:27:25 [John_Boyer]
Leigh: maybe you could use the calculation engine
16:27:39 [John_Boyer]
John: yes that's how I got to using a pseudo MIP syntax
16:27:49 [John_Boyer]
Steven: You mean the attribute on the bind
16:27:51 [John_Boyer]
John: Yes
16:28:47 [John_Boyer]
John: would be nice if you could configure an alert MIP using codes that could be referenced by alert at the UI level
16:29:07 [John_Boyer]
<bind ... constraint="X" alertcode="1"
16:29:20 [John_Boyer]
<bind ... constraint="Y" alertcode="2
16:29:21 [klotz]
<bind id="too_young" constraint="age < 3"><alert bind="too_young">...</>
16:29:37 [John_Boyer]
<input> ... <alert ref=" something that refers to alert codes and makes strings"
16:31:19 [Steven]
<bind constraint=",>17"><alert>Too young!</alert></bind>
16:31:26 [Steven]
s/,/./
16:31:31 [John_Boyer]
Maybe you could say that UI alert ref="X" is a reference to the alert message associated with thenode
16:31:40 [Steven]
Exactly
16:32:15 [John_Boyer]
<bind ... constraint="X"><alert>Broken due to X</alert></bind>
16:32:36 [John_Boyer]
s/.../ref="some node"
16:33:12 [Steven]
<bind ref="age" constraint ". &gt; 17"><alert>Too young</alter></bind>
16:33:21 [John_Boyer]
Steven: <input ref="some node"> automatically gets the alert from above
16:33:27 [Steven]
yes
16:34:36 [John_Boyer]
Nick: But if you want to style it, then it needs to be in the UI
16:34:43 [John_Boyer]
Steven: It is copied to the UI
16:35:29 [John_Boyer]
John: wouldn't this type of alert show up in UI as a pseudo element?
16:35:50 [John_Boyer]
Nick: yes but you'd also need to be able to get it in the error summary
16:36:19 [John_Boyer]
John: Yes, this is where we'd need to issue an xforms-invalid for an invalid control because the reason changed
16:36:46 [John_Boyer]
Nick: Putting just text is insufficient due to translation needs
16:36:59 [John_Boyer]
John: you could put a ref on the alert in the bind
16:37:04 [klotz]
<repeat nodeset="invalidity-reasons('age')
16:37:33 [John_Boyer]
Nick: Can you use an output with mediatype text/html in the alert in the bind?
16:38:29 [John_Boyer]
John: I don't have a problem with it because we already do this in the message action
16:39:59 [John_Boyer]
ACTION: John to add the constraint-sensitive alert issue described above to the wiki in Category XForms 1.2 as an issue, with links from UI events and multiple MIPs
16:40:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-647 - Add the constraint-sensitive alert issue described above to the wiki in Category XForms 1.2 as an issue, with links from UI events and multiple MIPs [on John Boyer - due 2010-11-17].
16:40:08 [Steven]
Topic: Spec
16:40:24 [Steven]
trackbot, status?
16:40:53 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_1.1_in_Wiki
16:41:04 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/Test/XForms1.2/Overview.html
16:41:11 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff?doc1=http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/&doc2=http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/Test/XForms1.2/Overview.html
16:42:09 [John_Boyer]
Steven: a number of groups have been asking how we did the spec in the wiki, so I'll have to report to HCG
16:42:11 [nick]
* No section nr. in section references
16:42:11 [nick]
* [] is no longer part of link for references
16:42:11 [nick]
* missing <p> -> less spacing
16:42:24 [John_Boyer]
Steven: diff doesn't show 100% of changes
16:43:19 [John_Boyer]
Steven: section numbers are hard to add and examples are all showing up as diffs
16:45:00 [John_Boyer]
Steven: so other than a few minor issues, the spec is ready to go and we need to decide what our next steps are
16:45:21 [John_Boyer]
Steven: we've talked about refactoring the spec, for example
16:45:56 [John_Boyer]
Nick: group, switch, repeat, and functions look straightforward
16:46:10 [John_Boyer]
John: submission is more or less a module too
16:46:38 [John_Boyer]
John: a couple of functions are module-specific
16:48:15 [John_Boyer]
Nick: they can be moved to their respective modules, but the functions module is still a good idea for most of them
16:49:25 [Steven]
Type card-number is related to is-card-number
16:49:50 [John_Boyer]
Steven: In some cases, the function is linked to a datatype, e.g. is-card-number() is related to the card-number datatype, so maybe it should go in a datatypes module?
16:49:54 [Steven]
SO the questions is, are datatypes and functions seperable
16:50:02 [Steven]
s/SO/So/
16:50:07 [Steven]
s/questions/question/
16:50:14 [John_Boyer]
Steven: we have a lot of date manipulation functions as well
16:50:44 [Steven]
So maybe things like that should be brought together
16:51:23 [John_Boyer]
John: how would we indicate what constitutes the whole of XForms 1.2?
16:51:42 [John_Boyer]
Steven: collect the chapters together, perhaps by reference?
16:51:52 [John_Boyer]
s/?/
16:52:05 [John_Boyer]
John: other than by reference, isn't that what we have now?
16:55:05 [nick]
what about http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/The_XForms_Dialog_Module, http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/The_XForms_Transform_Function_Module do we merge them in to the XForms spec?
16:57:14 [John_Boyer]
John: these chapters are largely separable, but the last 10% is really hard, from our prior experience
16:57:23 [John_Boyer]
John: I think we could leave it separate so we can start to figure out what we can live with in terms of a separate module that references to the rest of the spec.
16:57:32 [John_Boyer]
Leigh: I like the lazy authoring approach.
16:58:44 [John_Boyer]
ACTION: Steven to create the XForms 1.2 page in the wiki as the basis from which to work
16:58:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-648 - Create the XForms 1.2 page in the wiki as the basis from which to work [on Steven Pemberton - due 2010-11-17].
16:59:13 [John_Boyer]
John: we could use the 1.1 page as the basis for creating 1.1 second edition with diffs for errata
16:59:36 [Zakim]
-Steven
16:59:37 [Zakim]
-Leigh_Klotz
16:59:37 [Zakim]
-pfennell
16:59:38 [Zakim]
-John_Boyer
16:59:46 [Zakim]
-nick
16:59:47 [Zakim]
IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
16:59:48 [Zakim]
Attendees were nick, Steven, Leigh_Klotz, John_Boyer, [IPcaller], +44.782.483.aaaa, pfennell
16:59:56 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/10-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
17:00:17 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, bye
17:00:17 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/10-forms-actions.rdf :
17:00:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: John to add the constraint-sensitive alert issue described above to the wiki in Category XForms 1.2 as an issue, with links from UI events and multiple MIPs [1]
17:00:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/10-forms-irc#T16-39-59
17:00:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven to create the XForms 1.2 page in the wiki as the basis from which to work [2]
17:00:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/10-forms-irc#T16-58-44