IRC log of svg on 2010-09-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

09:17:31 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
09:17:31 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-irc
09:17:33 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
09:17:33 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
09:17:35 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
09:17:35 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
09:17:36 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
09:17:36 [trackbot]
Date: 03 September 2010
09:17:51 [ChrisL]
zakim, remind me in 8 hours to go home
09:17:51 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisL
09:23:43 [ChrisL]
Topic: SVG Vector Effects
09:23:47 [Cyril_Concolato]
Cyril_Concolato has joined #svg
09:24:12 [ChrisL]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/vectoreffects/master/SVGVectorEffects.html
09:24:13 [Cyril_Concolato]
scribe: Cyril
09:24:30 [ChrisL]
scribenick: Cyril_Concolato
09:24:57 [Cyril_Concolato]
ChrisL: some examples are not in the spec
09:25:14 [Cyril_Concolato]
when specifying a paint you can use all existing options plus currentFill and currentStroke
09:25:39 [Cyril_Concolato]
you can then stroke a path and the markers with the same stroke
09:25:50 [Cyril_Concolato]
I blew off some editorial comments
09:25:58 [Cyril_Concolato]
everything should be animatable
09:26:13 [Cyril_Concolato]
Doug: we should have a look at all of them
09:26:29 [Cyril_Concolato]
ChrisL: couple of cleanups that I did, the spec has not changed for 2 years
09:27:15 [Cyril_Concolato]
... the need for DOM came up to get an individual primitive or the whole geomrty
09:27:41 [Cyril_Concolato]
... but when the effect is used multiple times, we need to discuss how to do that
09:27:57 [Cyril_Concolato]
ED: the same problem exists with gradients
09:28:16 [Cyril_Concolato]
ChrisL: there was a concern that union/intersection are comlex
09:28:25 [Cyril_Concolato]
s/comlex/complex/
09:28:49 [Cyril_Concolato]
anthony: there are expensive
09:29:05 [Cyril_Concolato]
... I don't know how fast it could be once animated
09:29:30 [Cyril_Concolato]
ChrisL: why do this in the language, why not in the authoring tool
09:29:39 [tbah]
tbah has joined #svg
09:29:45 [Cyril_Concolato]
... but if it's dynamic it has to be in the client
09:29:56 [Cyril_Concolato]
Doug: for authoring exchanges
09:30:21 [shepazu]
s/for authoring exchanges/also for interchange between authoring tools/
09:31:16 [Cyril_Concolato]
CC: our concern was also complexity but it can be explained in a note
09:32:08 [Cyril_Concolato]
CC: why currentFill and currentStroke are linked with vector effect
09:32:18 [Cyril_Concolato]
ChrisL: it could be added to the main spec
09:34:31 [Cyril_Concolato]
CC: we also think that vector effect can be used for grouping path semantically but we are concerned with the file size increase
09:34:50 [Cyril_Concolato]
ChrisL: if it's a modest increase in file size it should be acceptable
09:35:34 [Cyril_Concolato]
CC: is adding points to SVG a feature related to vector effects
09:35:38 [Cyril_Concolato]
ChrisL: no
09:36:02 [ChrisL]
Its a good idea but no obvious intersection with vector effects
09:36:50 [Cyril_Concolato]
CC: yes but points may be shared between paths
09:37:31 [Cyril_Concolato]
... and if we want to express that sharing and if we use vector effects to share paths between objects, it might make sense to have points in vector effects
09:38:14 [Cyril_Concolato]
Tav: path along path
09:38:20 [Cyril_Concolato]
... is it insane ?
09:41:56 [Cyril_Concolato]
ChrisL: having a shape repeated along a path was shown in the mapping requirements
09:43:27 [Cyril_Concolato]
Tav: I can show an example of a object being stretched along a path
09:43:33 [tbah]
Lizard along path http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Paths-LivePathEffects-PatternAlongPath.html
09:43:56 [ChrisL]
and not ties to the subpath positions, like markers are
09:44:22 [Cyril_Concolato]
CC: It could be a way to make variable stroke along a path
09:44:42 [ChrisL]
yes that would be very interesting
09:46:04 [Cyril_Concolato]
Tav: in Inkscape you have a pattern and a path and you can edit them separately
09:46:25 [Cyril_Concolato]
Tav: it would be nice to be able to edit when the positioning of the pattern is active
09:47:27 [Cyril_Concolato]
ChrisL: I want that we agree on any new feature so that I can move on with the spec
09:48:00 [Cyril_Concolato]
CC: we will provide feedback when we have implemented the use of vector effect for our application (superpath)
09:48:38 [Cyril_Concolato]
ED: I don't have the ressources at the moment to work on it
09:49:40 [Cyril_Concolato]
ChrisL: if anyone has an implementation it would help to move the spec along
09:51:10 [Cyril_Concolato]
ChrisL: I'll try to get the spec ready for another draft
09:51:27 [Cyril_Concolato]
ChrisL: the spec does not talk at all about API
09:51:35 [Cyril_Concolato]
ChrisL: how can it be best done ?
09:51:55 [Cyril_Concolato]
ChrisL: a method on each effect or on the filter ?
09:52:35 [Cyril_Concolato]
DS: having the list of places where an effect is used could be useful for online editors
09:52:43 [Cyril_Concolato]
ChrisL: that could fix the gradient problem
09:52:56 [Cyril_Concolato]
Anthony: didn't we put wording in the spec about that ?
09:53:04 [Cyril_Concolato]
ChrisL: I don't recall
09:53:27 [ChrisL]
s/each effect/each graphical element/
09:54:45 [Cyril_Concolato]
ED: if you have a gradient that use bouding box unit, on the gradient we could have an API to evaluate the gradient on a specific context
09:55:53 [shepazu]
that would allow us to evaluate an effect on an element before it's applied, which could be useful, if it's not too expensive
09:56:56 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/pservers.html#GradientsIntroduction
09:58:59 [Cyril_Concolato]
ChrisL: the vector effects don't change the stroke
09:59:18 [Cyril_Concolato]
... I wonder if it would be better to separate the stroke into two halfs
09:59:33 [Cyril_Concolato]
... inside and outside so that you can manipulate them separately
10:00:25 [Cyril_Concolato]
DS: that should be accessible with a short hand
10:01:43 [shepazu]
it would be nice to have 'stroke-width-inner' and 'stroke-width-outer'
10:02:21 [shepazu]
and shorthands should be added to the VE spec
11:10:03 [ed]
ed has joined #svg
11:11:24 [Cyril_Concolato]
Cyril_Concolato has joined #svg
11:12:30 [ed]
topic: SVG 1.1 Last Call
11:12:35 [ChrisL]
scribenick: tbah
11:12:46 [ChrisL]
Topic: SVG 1.1SE Last Call
11:13:59 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/24
11:14:11 [ChrisL]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/DoC/dump.html
11:16:18 [ed]
CL: don't check the file in, gets picked up by tracker and linked to every issue
11:17:23 [tbah]
DS: How do we treat conflicts with other specs? As last call items?
11:19:26 [shepazu]
s/How do we treat conflicts with other specs? As last call items?/what about the issue with SVG pointer-events on the svg root, esp. used in HTML
11:19:30 [ChrisL]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/DoC/getxml.html
11:24:40 [ed]
that's ISSUE-2364, right?
11:24:54 [ed]
ISSUE-2364?
11:24:54 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2364 -- SVG 1.1 may be ambiguous about the root element acting as a proximal event target -- raised
11:24:54 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2364
11:24:56 [tbah]
ChrisL: Don't close issues for last call or they disappear (XSLT doesn't pick it up).
11:25:24 [ChrisL]
s/dissapear/dissapear from the autogenerated disposition of comments/
11:26:23 [ChrisL]
action-2800?
11:26:23 [trackbot]
ACTION-2800 -- Chris Lilley to send in and track the media type registration for image/svg+xml -- due 2010-06-24 -- OPEN
11:26:23 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2800
11:29:05 [tbah]
ChrisL: Received comment that there should have two different media types for svg and compressed svg.
11:31:27 [tbah]
ChrisL/Cyril: But this isn't necessary since it is handled by content headers.
11:35:04 [tbah]
ChrisL: Please look at registration to see how SVG content is handled by clipboards; does it work?
11:35:37 [ChrisL]
Macintosh Universal Type Identifier code:
11:35:37 [ChrisL]
org.w3c.svg conforms to public.image and to public.xml
11:35:37 [ChrisL]
Windows Clipboard Name:
11:35:37 [ChrisL]
"SVG Image"
11:35:46 [ChrisL]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/mimereg.html
11:37:07 [ChrisL]
don't know for kde or gnome, do they use internet media type?
11:37:56 [ChrisL]
tracker, status
11:38:03 [ChrisL]
trackbot, status
11:38:34 [ChrisL]
action: tavmjong to investigate Inkscape SVG on clipboard usage
11:38:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2833 - Investigate Inkscape SVG on clipboard usage [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2010-09-10].
11:40:01 [shepazu]
http://svg-whiz.com/svg/HideShow.svg
11:40:13 [shepazu]
I copy-pasted that with FF
11:46:30 [tbah]
tav: Inkscape seems to copy as text the svg file... but will investigate further.
11:50:41 [tbah]
DS: It sounds like ChrisL has done due diigence on establihed precedents.
11:51:30 [ChrisL]
Copy and pasting the text is needed, but is separate from copy pasting an image (for example to drop into a dtp program)
11:52:32 [shepazu]
s/It sounds like ChrisL has done due diigence on establihed precedents/It sounds like ChrisL has done due diligence on established precedents
11:52:48 [ChrisL]
I checked what MathML did and looked at some documentation for windows and macosx; did not find good docs for linux gnome, or kde
11:53:12 [tbah]
ED: Is there something to specify if the content is gzipped or not?
11:53:46 [ChrisL]
action-2809?
11:53:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-2809 -- Erik Dahlström to investigate ISSUE-2334 and report back -- due 2010-07-06 -- OPEN
11:53:47 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2809
11:55:20 [tbah]
ED: Basically done, will write an email.
11:55:31 [ChrisL]
action-2812?
11:55:31 [trackbot]
ACTION-2812 -- Erik Dahlström to find the test case, commit it and make some proposed wording -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
11:55:31 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2812
11:56:43 [ChrisL]
relates to ISSUE-2335 -- Clarify feConvolveMatrix bias property, specificasly the bias attribute
11:57:00 [tbah]
ED: Finding the test case probably not too hard, but will need to check that it does what people want.
11:57:22 [ChrisL]
action-2813?
11:57:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-2813 -- Chris Lilley to propose wording for ISSUE-2336 to say if it is malformed it doesn't have an effect -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
11:57:24 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2813
11:58:14 [tbah]
ChrisL: Change checked in, no comment back from commentor.
12:00:38 [ChrisL]
ah, i now see he did agree http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Jul/0081.html
12:01:21 [ChrisL]
action-2814?
12:01:21 [trackbot]
ACTION-2814 -- Anthony Grasso to add wording to the specification to say that the behaviour is unspecified for those cases in ISSUE-2337 -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
12:01:21 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2814
12:02:13 [tbah]
Anthony: Still working on it.
12:02:24 [ChrisL]
action-2817?
12:02:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-2817 -- Chris Lilley to add the promised note relating to ISSUE-2340 -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
12:02:24 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2817
12:02:48 [ChrisL]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010JulSep/0010.html
12:03:42 [tbah]
ChrisL: Made test case, got different results in different implemenations.
12:06:54 [ChrisL]
erik: check animval in the dom to be sure its not cut off at the semicolon
12:09:50 [ChrisL]
<animate keytimes="0s, 2.9s" attributeName="xlink:href" values="../images/linkingCircle-f.svg#svgView(viewBox(120,200,40,40));../images/linkingCircle-f.svg#svgView(viewBox(64,227,72,72))"
12:11:30 [tbah]
ED: Try quote marks.
12:11:37 [ChrisL]
erik: try quote marks around each uri
12:11:44 [tbah]
DS: Is that allowed?
12:12:05 [ChrisL]
<animate keytimes="0s, 2.9s" attributeName="xlink:href" values="'../images/linkingCircle-f.svg#svgView(viewBox(120,200,40,40))';'../images/linkingCircle-f.svg#svgView(viewBox(64,227,72,72))'"
12:12:56 [ChrisL]
sowe would then say that inside quotes, ; is not treated as a smil values list separator
12:16:08 [ChrisL]
erik: you could use url escaping too
12:17:59 [ChrisL]
so %3B would be the escape here
12:19:28 [tbah]
Cryil: Would first split list by ; and then evaluate.
12:20:24 [tbah]
DS: Quoting would be nicer... maybe something for SVG2.
12:20:37 [cyril]
s/Cryil/Cyril/
12:20:49 [tbah]
ChrisL: Will still work on this.
12:20:49 [ChrisL]
ok so I will make a new test, with percent escaping and check in the dom for animval
12:21:17 [ChrisL]
action-2818?
12:21:18 [trackbot]
ACTION-2818 -- Chris Lilley to investigate ISSUE-2341 and look for previous comments -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
12:21:18 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2818
12:23:39 [tbah]
Cyril: Propose to copy 1.2Tiny text.
12:24:00 [tbah]
ChrisL: Will do that if no one objects.
12:24:03 [ChrisL]
this text http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/animate.html#complexDistances
12:24:58 [ChrisL]
action-2821?
12:25:01 [trackbot]
ACTION-2821 -- Chris Lilley to update the references section for issue-2344 -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
12:25:01 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2821
12:26:35 [ChrisL]
cyril: need to update 'list of' in types section too
12:27:15 [tbah]
ChrisL: Changed and approved.
12:27:27 [ChrisL]
issue is closed, commentor agrees
12:28:16 [tbah]
ED: Need actions for rest of items.
12:29:33 [ed]
ISSUE-2364?
12:29:33 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2364 -- SVG 1.1 may be ambiguous about the root element acting as a proximal event target -- raised
12:29:33 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2364
12:31:24 [shepazu]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Aug/0011.html
12:34:29 [shepazu]
http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/content.xhtml
12:34:41 [shepazu]
http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/overlap.xhtml
12:35:05 [ChrisL]
(updated disposition of comments at http://www.w3.org/2010/09/SVG1.1SE-LastCall/dump.html )
12:36:56 [tbah]
If you have an SVG plugin in HTML, and you click on a non-existent backround, should the event be passed through?
12:37:07 [tbah]
Cyril: Answer: No.
12:37:53 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/interact.html#PointerEvents
12:38:39 [ChrisL]
s/If/DS: If/
12:39:27 [ChrisL]
s/No/It can refuse to handle the event and pass it back to the system, so the containing application will handle it/
12:42:37 [anthony]
Scribe: Anthony
12:42:46 [anthony]
ScribeNick: anthony
12:43:10 [anthony]
DS: Now all browsers are consistent for referenced content
12:43:17 [anthony]
... they violate the SVG spec
12:43:24 [anthony]
ED: The point about the reference object
12:44:06 [anthony]
... The behaviour would be hard to change
12:44:15 [anthony]
... and violate some security protocols
12:44:28 [anthony]
CC: Looking at overlap.xhtml
12:44:34 [anthony]
... when you click on inline
12:44:40 [anthony]
... on the bottom
12:44:47 [anthony]
... you get two events
12:44:50 [anthony]
DS: Look at the code
12:44:54 [anthony]
... it's a single event
12:44:59 [anthony]
... but two boxes
12:45:05 [anthony]
... on question is does the event bubble
12:45:16 [anthony]
... bubbles for an inline case
12:45:22 [anthony]
ED: It's never bubbled between documents
12:45:51 [anthony]
CC: I think the inline case is correctly implemented
12:45:53 [anthony]
DS: No
12:45:59 [anthony]
... it's not in FireFox
12:46:09 [anthony]
AG: Want it to be consistent
12:46:21 [anthony]
DS: Click the background
12:46:25 [anthony]
... which is incorrect
12:46:46 [anthony]
ED: I'd assume that the click goes through transparent areas
12:46:56 [anthony]
CC: We need to agree on behaviours and see if it's correct in the spec
12:47:06 [anthony]
DS: Need to look at use cases and interpretations
12:47:35 [anthony]
... so, the argument was raised that treading SVG like a <div> since it has dimensions if you clicked inside that <div>
12:47:39 [anthony]
... it dispatches the event
12:47:51 [anthony]
CC: Even with transparent background?
12:47:52 [anthony]
DS: Yes
12:48:04 [anthony]
... so question is have to establish what the default is
12:48:08 [anthony]
... and how do you change it
12:48:38 [anthony]
ED: We had something like FireFox
12:48:46 [anthony]
... but we asked to change it
12:48:59 [anthony]
CC: Have to be consistent with SVG in HTML and SVG in SVG
12:49:04 [anthony]
DS: We need to look at the spec
12:49:18 [anthony]
... currently, Opera and Webkit behave one way with inline SVG
12:49:27 [anthony]
... the SVG root does not intercept events
12:49:53 [anthony]
... it passes them through
12:50:37 [anthony]
CC: Nothing happens in the SVG context
12:50:41 [anthony]
... regards to this event
12:50:48 [anthony]
DS: SVG spec is moderately clear on this
12:51:18 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/interact.html#UIEventProcessing
12:51:29 [anthony]
CC: IE9 is doing as Opera is doing
12:51:44 [anthony]
DS: I would prefer that inline and referenced SVG behaved the same way
12:51:52 [anthony]
ED: Changing that now
12:51:56 [anthony]
... would be bad for SVG in general
12:52:08 [anthony]
... people have come to expect certain behaviour
12:59:07 [anthony]
All: [16.5 Read through Processing order for user interface events]
13:00:05 [anthony]
DS: Clarify that this section is about hit testing and not propagation
13:00:13 [anthony]
ED: Would be better if there was a graph here
13:00:32 [anthony]
DS: Problem with the section is it confuses hit testing, event propagation and order of processing
13:01:35 [anthony]
ED: It's trying to describe a flowchart or something
13:02:10 [anthony]
DS: Doesn't talk about things like selecting graphics elements
13:03:13 [anthony]
... when SVG was written we didn't talk about default view or window
13:03:36 [anthony]
ED: How would you change this?
13:03:42 [anthony]
DS: Instead of processing order
13:03:48 [anthony]
... I would break it down to a section on hit testing
13:04:04 [anthony]
CC: Something has been hit? something not hit?
13:04:14 [anthony]
DS: Yes, if something hit. Go through and process actions
13:04:21 [anthony]
... If it has not been hit
13:04:26 [anthony]
... give a context menu
13:04:34 [anthony]
ED: Would be nice to have an SVG graph
13:04:45 [anthony]
... down the side
13:04:51 [anthony]
... that matches the text
13:05:09 [anthony]
AG: I agree, much easier to read and implement
13:06:27 [anthony]
ED: It's pretty clear what needs to be done
13:07:08 [anthony]
DS: So we are going to do this in SVG 1.1 Full 2nd edition
13:07:17 [anthony]
CC: We have this text in Tiny 1.2
13:07:29 [anthony]
DS: We pulled out the part on pseudo classes
13:07:49 [anthony]
CC: Has this other bit - 13.8 Event dispatching
13:07:52 [anthony]
ED: It's different
13:07:59 [anthony]
... but might need an errata on Tiny 1.2
13:09:09 [anthony]
ACTION: Doug to Clarify section 16.5 Processing order for user interface events relating to problems in ISSUE-2364
13:09:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2834 - Clarify section 16.5 Processing order for user interface events relating to problems in ISSUE-2364 [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-10].
13:09:18 [anthony]
CC: What about key events?
13:09:24 [anthony]
DS: That's another matter
13:09:35 [anthony]
... that's why saying this is about hit testing is relevant
13:09:52 [anthony]
CC: That's a whole different discussion. But at some point someone should investigate this
13:10:19 [anthony]
DS: ED you're saying for security reasons, you're not going to allow events to pass through in an iFrame
13:10:26 [anthony]
... It's the same in object
13:10:31 [anthony]
... and if you change the one
13:10:36 [anthony]
... people would expect the other to change
13:11:01 [anthony]
ED: If you have an <img> element it's like a static image with no script and no events
13:11:08 [anthony]
... so it's the HTML you're getting events on
13:11:16 [anthony]
DS: Do you treat image and object the same?
13:11:21 [anthony]
ED: No
13:11:36 [anthony]
ED: I assume object, embed and iframe behave the same
13:11:42 [anthony]
... embed not so much
13:11:56 [anthony]
... object and iframe is mostly the same I think
13:12:26 [anthony]
CC: What about SVG <image>
13:12:33 [anthony]
ED: It's defined in the spec
13:12:42 [anthony]
... but should behave the way as <img>
13:12:52 [anthony]
DS: I understand why are you doing this
13:13:00 [anthony]
... but for content creation it's a pain
13:13:21 [anthony]
... say you have some SVG and you want to click through on the element and where there isn't SVG content you
13:13:25 [anthony]
... want to get to the HTML
13:13:41 [anthony]
ED: So you if you have transparency you get the HTML?
13:13:52 [anthony]
... Does the same thing happen for PNG?
13:13:59 [anthony]
... So we treat it the same
13:14:06 [anthony]
DS: I'm talking for object here
13:14:12 [anthony]
ED: Not sure we are talking about the same thing
13:14:22 [anthony]
DS: Look at my example
13:17:59 [anthony]
...We need to have a larger discussion about clicking through the transparent content would be a problem
13:19:40 [anthony]
AG: This would be a good thing to discuss at TPAC
13:20:56 [anthony]
CC: When the SVG is in the document it's behaviour is the same as a <div>
13:21:19 [anthony]
DS: I'm saying for the inline case
13:22:04 [anthony]
... Maybe this needs to happen during a telcon
13:22:30 [anthony]
... because we want all browsers to have the correct behaviour
13:24:23 [anthony]
ED: There might be use cases the other way
13:24:37 [anthony]
... not just having events go through
13:24:57 [anthony]
DS: I said you set pointerEvents to all
13:25:34 [anthony]
... as I suggested
13:26:41 [anthony]
ED: I just think this is something that goes beyond SVG content
13:27:42 [anthony]
CL: Could probably put that wording in the integration spec
13:29:04 [anthony]
DS: A quick test that mouse move on an empty SVG document intercepts i.e. the root dispatches the event
13:29:26 [anthony]
... All the modern browsers I tested
13:29:54 [anthony]
... this is contrary to ASV and seems to be contrary to the spec
13:30:03 [anthony]
... but is consistent with HTML
14:05:10 [anthony]
ACTION: Doug to Add a table to the integration document about the embedded and inline SVG with regards to pointer events on the SVG root
14:05:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2835 - Add a table to the integration document about the embedded and inline SVG with regards to pointer events on the SVG root [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-10].
14:05:24 [anthony]
ISSUE-2363?
14:05:24 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2363 -- Last Call Comment: Reconcile 'stroke' presentation attributes on <image> -- raised
14:05:24 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2363
14:05:46 [anthony]
ED: I think Cameron and me have responded to this on the list
14:05:51 [anthony]
... saying what we have now in the spec
14:06:12 [anthony]
... is a lot better than what was in previous 1.1 spec
14:06:29 [anthony]
... so in the previous 1.1 spec we had DTD to say what attributes where on each element
14:06:45 [anthony]
... so now have something that can be expanded and is more readable and made it more clear
14:06:52 [anthony]
... that presentation attributes can be specified anywhere
14:07:05 [anthony]
... even if they don't apply to it
14:07:26 [anthony]
CL: So specified and applied to are distinguished?
14:07:29 [anthony]
ED: Yes
14:07:36 [anthony]
CL: Therefore we should reject the comment
14:07:49 [ed]
s/apply to it/apply to the element it's specified on/
14:08:00 [anthony]
... because it's a no change required
14:08:36 [anthony]
CL: The issue was raised by Doug
14:10:05 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/masking.html#ObjectAndGroupOpacityProperties
14:10:07 [anthony]
DS: Please show me where it's specified
14:10:11 [anthony]
ED: That's one example
14:10:17 [anthony]
... it clearly says applies to
14:10:27 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/struct.html#ImageElement
14:10:27 [anthony]
DS: However if you go to here
14:10:43 [anthony]
DS: And you click on the, presentation attributes, it lists it
14:10:48 [anthony]
CL: That's right
14:10:51 [anthony]
... exactly
14:10:55 [anthony]
... it doesn't apply to it
14:11:16 [anthony]
DS: I was talking to someone on IRC and they were trying to do this
14:11:23 [anthony]
... (stroke image element)
14:11:33 [anthony]
... and they go to the presentation attributes they can set on the elemnt
14:11:44 [anthony]
s/elemnt/element/
14:11:59 [anthony]
DS: I think we should change the spec to things that have an effect on the element
14:12:08 [anthony]
CL: So it's currently done the other way
14:12:14 [anthony]
... for each property it says what it applies to
14:12:26 [anthony]
... this is an argument we've had since the entire life time on the SVG
14:13:02 [anthony]
... then others say somethings should be set only on an element only
14:13:14 [anthony]
... in some cases things would be disallowed because when children
14:13:22 [anthony]
... were placed in the element
14:13:29 [anthony]
... sometimes things apply
14:13:49 [anthony]
DS: Maybe it's the choice on how fine grain things are categorised
14:14:06 [anthony]
CL: This is going against a decision that was made 2 -3 years ago
14:14:11 [anthony]
... it's a huge change
14:14:15 [anthony]
... to be doing this
14:14:18 [anthony]
DS: Let's be clear
14:14:22 [anthony]
... we all agree it is confusing
14:14:28 [anthony]
CL: It could be confusing
14:14:32 [anthony]
ED: In some cases yes
14:14:44 [anthony]
DS: It has been proven to be confusing to some people
14:14:47 [anthony]
... including me
14:15:33 [anthony]
CL: Presentation attributes are in the form of properties
14:15:52 [tbah]
tbah has joined #svg
14:16:00 [anthony]
CC: As an implementer it reads well
14:16:03 [anthony]
... as an author
14:16:06 [anthony]
... it probably doesn't
14:16:13 [anthony]
... what matters at least someone can be confused
14:16:21 [anthony]
ED: What are you suggesting?
14:16:22 [tbah]
tbah has joined #svg
14:16:34 [anthony]
DS: Is it work the extra time to do this, to change it
14:16:41 [anthony]
CL: Change how?
14:17:05 [anthony]
DS: So, maybe in this case if we wanted to do the minimum work if it could some how be styled differently
14:17:09 [anthony]
... if it has an effect an element
14:17:15 [anthony]
ED: Yes, that would be nice
14:17:18 [anthony]
... make them bold
14:17:23 [anthony]
... if they applied to the element
14:17:31 [anthony]
CC: As long as it is editorial
14:17:38 [anthony]
CL: It will be editorial
14:17:57 [anthony]
... with all the presentation attributes it is a link which takes you to the definition
14:18:07 [anthony]
DS: How is this generated?
14:18:16 [anthony]
ED: It's generated from the XML, IDL
14:19:32 [anthony]
CL: Another thing we could do to make the spec better
14:19:43 [anthony]
... is to say the difference between applies to and specified on
14:20:35 [anthony]
CC: Adding the new sentence you said will help
14:20:44 [anthony]
... but changing the style and linking to that
14:20:49 [anthony]
... would at least give a hint that it's not that simple
14:21:02 [anthony]
... having it in bold would say would it apply
14:21:11 [anthony]
... it's precise and it's clear
14:21:16 [anthony]
... but it doesn't speak to most of the people
14:21:29 [anthony]
ED: My objection is don't we have that sentence somewhere?
14:21:38 [anthony]
... styling?
14:21:51 [anthony]
... I would not want to have two sentence that say two different things about the same topic
14:21:57 [anthony]
DS: There is a sentence here in styling
14:22:01 [anthony]
... two links away
14:22:32 [anthony]
ED: Specificity of 0 is in there 6.4
14:22:35 [shepazu]
[[
14:22:43 [shepazu]
For user agents that support CSS, the presentation attributes must be translated to corresponding CSS style rules according to rules described in Precedence of non-CSS presentational hints ([CSS2], section 6.4.4), with the additional clarification that the presentation attributes are conceptually inserted into a new author style sheet which is the first in the author style sheet collection. The presentation attributes thus will participate in the CSS2 cascade
14:22:43 [shepazu]
]]
14:23:06 [anthony]
CL: The section on presentation attributes could have it in there
14:23:14 [anthony]
DS: That would be two links away
14:23:15 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/intro.html#TermPresentationAttribute
14:23:21 [anthony]
... could have it here so that it's one link away
14:24:48 [anthony]
DS: Could say "Note not all presentation attributes specified on an element will apply to the element. For a list of elements that a property applies to see... blah"
14:26:33 [anthony]
... how hard would it be style them bold or normal?
14:26:39 [anthony]
ED: I think that would be a bit of work
14:26:48 [anthony]
... I don't think we have a list or things
14:26:58 [anthony]
... adding the sentences here would be less work
14:27:21 [anthony]
DS: In SVG 2. I would like us to re examine if we can have a stroke around the edge of an image?
14:27:28 [anthony]
CL: Wouldn't that be a border?
14:27:54 [anthony]
DS: Depends on if we allow padding around it and borders have different properties to borders
14:29:09 [anthony]
ACTION: Chris to Include the above disclaimer about the applicability of presentation attributes on elements
14:29:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2836 - Include the above disclaimer about the applicability of presentation attributes on elements [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-09-10].
14:29:47 [anthony]
Topic: SVG 1.1 2nd Edition Candidate Recommendation
14:35:08 [tbah]
tbah has joined #svg
14:38:45 [cyril]
cyril has joined #svg
15:12:03 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
15:12:15 [anthony]
back from break
15:14:13 [anthony]
DS: First we need to agree on the set of tests that make up the SVG 1.1 2nd edition test suite
15:16:00 [anthony]
CL: Previously, the action of building the test suit generated all the files to do the testing
15:16:20 [f1lt3r]
f1lt3r has joined #svg
15:16:32 [anthony]
AG: I believe the reporting stuff is working
15:16:54 [anthony]
ACTION: Anthony to Check if report generation for the test suite is working and report back
15:16:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2837 - Check if report generation for the test suite is working and report back [on Anthony Grasso - due 2010-09-10].
15:17:32 [anthony]
AG: So the way the test suite generation scripts work is you have a list of tests and every component in the test suite
15:17:42 [anthony]
... is generated according to that list
15:20:39 [anthony]
DS: For all the tests we don't have results on, each implementer can run the tests and report back to us
15:25:14 [anthony]
ACTION: Doug to Run the tests on Safari on Mac
15:25:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2838 - Run the tests on Safari on Mac [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-10].
15:25:31 [anthony]
ACTION: Chris to Run the tests on Firefox on Windows
15:25:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2839 - Run the tests on Firefox on Windows [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-09-10].
15:26:01 [anthony]
ACTION: Erik to Run the tests on Opera
15:26:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2840 - Run the tests on Opera [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-09-10].
15:26:35 [anthony]
ACTION: Cyril to Run the tests on GPac
15:26:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2841 - Run the tests on GPac [on Cyril Concolato - due 2010-09-10].
15:26:50 [anthony]
ACTION: Tav to Run the tests on Inkscape
15:26:50 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Tav
15:27:12 [anthony]
ACTION: Tavmjong to Run the tests on Inkscape
15:27:12 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2842 - Run the tests on Inkscape [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2010-09-10].
15:33:41 [anthony]
Topics: Connectors
15:34:08 [anthony]
CL: So that was news to me that you could make a complex path going through a few points
15:36:18 [anthony]
TB: We have a sophisticated routing than what's proposed. But because the path between objects can be enhanced
15:36:29 [anthony]
... we wouldn't be losing anything that's already in inkscape
15:39:00 [anthony]
DS: [Demo's current connectors implementation]
15:43:02 [anthony]
... Connector goes from centroid to centroid
15:44:14 [anthony]
AG: This could be difficult to calculate
15:44:26 [anthony]
... particularly if you're clipping parts of an object out
15:44:45 [anthony]
CL: Why not the center of the bounding box?
15:45:35 [cyril]
cyril has joined #svg
15:48:23 [anthony]
DS: Different possible syntax for point
15:48:32 [anthony]
... if you're looking at the bounding box of the parent
15:48:50 [anthony]
... it'd be useful to allow a percentage of the parent bounding box
15:49:41 [anthony]
... A port has a specific role of point
15:49:49 [anthony]
... it is a child of a shape
15:50:07 [anthony]
... point is a non rendering element
15:50:15 [anthony]
... you can style it with a marker
15:50:23 [anthony]
CL: Effectively it's a zero length line
15:51:32 [anthony]
DS: Each node being linked to has a port that will be preferential to where connection is made
15:51:54 [anthony]
... it will always go to the nearest between two ports
15:51:59 [anthony]
TB: Can you specify
15:52:40 [anthony]
... the port?
16:02:13 [anthony]
DS: Yes
16:02:37 [anthony]
... I've got a sample implementation and done some work on this
16:02:49 [anthony]
... I want to know if we agree to work on this
16:03:34 [anthony]
CL: Do we agree that this is the direction we should go in?
16:03:52 [anthony]
CC: How would you add it, if you were to add it?
16:04:00 [anthony]
... a separate module?
16:04:03 [anthony]
DS: Yes
16:04:09 [anthony]
... I'd intend for it to be part of SVG 2
16:04:52 [anthony]
... we've had a level of requests for this
16:05:00 [anthony]
TB: We've had requests for this as well
16:05:55 [anthony]
DS: This is a common case I've seen again and again
16:06:23 [anthony]
ED: Not convinced yet
16:06:41 [anthony]
DS: This is does not add, drag and drop, it does not add routing
16:07:04 [anthony]
ED: Does it add any dependencies that you need to resolve?
16:07:16 [anthony]
DS: There are very well defined dependencies
16:07:24 [anthony]
... when a shape is moved
16:07:31 [anthony]
... the connection changes
16:07:45 [anthony]
ED: We have to track a lot of dependencies already
16:07:51 [anthony]
... the less we need to do the faster it will be
16:08:01 [anthony]
... the graph of dependencies grows
16:08:11 [anthony]
... you can do this in script
16:08:18 [anthony]
... just not convinced
16:08:21 [anthony]
DS: Yes, you're right
16:08:39 [anthony]
... it's a common use case that is not easy to do in script
16:08:53 [anthony]
... it doesn't establish the semantics and behaviour
16:09:44 [anthony]
... I think it is a compelling feature that makes SVG very attractive for use
16:10:49 [anthony]
CC: You could do the opposite
16:10:52 [anthony]
... and say this is a line
16:11:00 [anthony]
... and this is connector
16:11:05 [anthony]
... and then put a marker on it
16:11:24 [anthony]
... This could also be done with Cameron's constraints
16:11:48 [anthony]
DS: This is a subsection of constraints. Gives people a lot of power to build things in SVG
16:12:07 [anthony]
... getting the connector for free gives people something accessible
16:12:39 [anthony]
... and graphics like this will not be accessible without this
16:12:48 [anthony]
CC: Couldn't you do this with a line
16:12:53 [anthony]
... and give it a role of connector?
16:13:15 [anthony]
DS: Yes, but it doesn't give the author any reason to do this
16:14:23 [anthony]
ED: Why does it have to be in SVG?
16:14:27 [anthony]
... why not stand alone?
16:14:31 [anthony]
... in a completely different spec
16:14:38 [anthony]
... used in other languages
16:14:44 [anthony]
DS: What other languages?
16:14:52 [anthony]
ED: Connect this div to another div
16:14:59 [anthony]
DS: But that is not a visual language
16:15:03 [anthony]
... SVG is a visual language
16:17:21 [anthony]
... this would pretty much the highest thing we would have at this level
16:17:39 [anthony]
CC: There are two parts the rendering constraints and the semantics
16:18:13 [anthony]
... I think we can have either the semantics or the constraints
16:22:11 [anthony]
CL: So I think that he is arguing
16:22:19 [anthony]
... that use <path> instead of <connector>
16:22:22 [anthony]
... point is fine
16:23:35 [anthony]
ED: We should close for the day
16:23:41 [anthony]
... and continue discussion later
16:24:32 [anthony]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:24:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html anthony
16:24:39 [anthony]
Zakim, bye
16:24:39 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg
17:17:52 [Zakim]
ChrisL, you asked to be reminded at this time to go home
19:14:35 [cyril]
cyril has joined #svg
19:19:49 [f1lt3r]
f1lt3r has joined #svg