IRC log of svg on 2010-09-03
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 09:17:31 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #svg
- 09:17:31 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-irc
- 09:17:33 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 09:17:33 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #svg
- 09:17:35 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
- 09:17:35 [Zakim]
- I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
- 09:17:36 [trackbot]
- Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
- 09:17:36 [trackbot]
- Date: 03 September 2010
- 09:17:51 [ChrisL]
- zakim, remind me in 8 hours to go home
- 09:17:51 [Zakim]
- ok, ChrisL
- 09:23:43 [ChrisL]
- Topic: SVG Vector Effects
- 09:23:47 [Cyril_Concolato]
- Cyril_Concolato has joined #svg
- 09:24:12 [ChrisL]
- http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/vectoreffects/master/SVGVectorEffects.html
- 09:24:13 [Cyril_Concolato]
- scribe: Cyril
- 09:24:30 [ChrisL]
- scribenick: Cyril_Concolato
- 09:24:57 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ChrisL: some examples are not in the spec
- 09:25:14 [Cyril_Concolato]
- when specifying a paint you can use all existing options plus currentFill and currentStroke
- 09:25:39 [Cyril_Concolato]
- you can then stroke a path and the markers with the same stroke
- 09:25:50 [Cyril_Concolato]
- I blew off some editorial comments
- 09:25:58 [Cyril_Concolato]
- everything should be animatable
- 09:26:13 [Cyril_Concolato]
- Doug: we should have a look at all of them
- 09:26:29 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ChrisL: couple of cleanups that I did, the spec has not changed for 2 years
- 09:27:15 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ... the need for DOM came up to get an individual primitive or the whole geomrty
- 09:27:41 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ... but when the effect is used multiple times, we need to discuss how to do that
- 09:27:57 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ED: the same problem exists with gradients
- 09:28:16 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ChrisL: there was a concern that union/intersection are comlex
- 09:28:25 [Cyril_Concolato]
- s/comlex/complex/
- 09:28:49 [Cyril_Concolato]
- anthony: there are expensive
- 09:29:05 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ... I don't know how fast it could be once animated
- 09:29:30 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ChrisL: why do this in the language, why not in the authoring tool
- 09:29:39 [tbah]
- tbah has joined #svg
- 09:29:45 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ... but if it's dynamic it has to be in the client
- 09:29:56 [Cyril_Concolato]
- Doug: for authoring exchanges
- 09:30:21 [shepazu]
- s/for authoring exchanges/also for interchange between authoring tools/
- 09:31:16 [Cyril_Concolato]
- CC: our concern was also complexity but it can be explained in a note
- 09:32:08 [Cyril_Concolato]
- CC: why currentFill and currentStroke are linked with vector effect
- 09:32:18 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ChrisL: it could be added to the main spec
- 09:34:31 [Cyril_Concolato]
- CC: we also think that vector effect can be used for grouping path semantically but we are concerned with the file size increase
- 09:34:50 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ChrisL: if it's a modest increase in file size it should be acceptable
- 09:35:34 [Cyril_Concolato]
- CC: is adding points to SVG a feature related to vector effects
- 09:35:38 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ChrisL: no
- 09:36:02 [ChrisL]
- Its a good idea but no obvious intersection with vector effects
- 09:36:50 [Cyril_Concolato]
- CC: yes but points may be shared between paths
- 09:37:31 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ... and if we want to express that sharing and if we use vector effects to share paths between objects, it might make sense to have points in vector effects
- 09:38:14 [Cyril_Concolato]
- Tav: path along path
- 09:38:20 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ... is it insane ?
- 09:41:56 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ChrisL: having a shape repeated along a path was shown in the mapping requirements
- 09:43:27 [Cyril_Concolato]
- Tav: I can show an example of a object being stretched along a path
- 09:43:33 [tbah]
- Lizard along path http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Paths-LivePathEffects-PatternAlongPath.html
- 09:43:56 [ChrisL]
- and not ties to the subpath positions, like markers are
- 09:44:22 [Cyril_Concolato]
- CC: It could be a way to make variable stroke along a path
- 09:44:42 [ChrisL]
- yes that would be very interesting
- 09:46:04 [Cyril_Concolato]
- Tav: in Inkscape you have a pattern and a path and you can edit them separately
- 09:46:25 [Cyril_Concolato]
- Tav: it would be nice to be able to edit when the positioning of the pattern is active
- 09:47:27 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ChrisL: I want that we agree on any new feature so that I can move on with the spec
- 09:48:00 [Cyril_Concolato]
- CC: we will provide feedback when we have implemented the use of vector effect for our application (superpath)
- 09:48:38 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ED: I don't have the ressources at the moment to work on it
- 09:49:40 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ChrisL: if anyone has an implementation it would help to move the spec along
- 09:51:10 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ChrisL: I'll try to get the spec ready for another draft
- 09:51:27 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ChrisL: the spec does not talk at all about API
- 09:51:35 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ChrisL: how can it be best done ?
- 09:51:55 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ChrisL: a method on each effect or on the filter ?
- 09:52:35 [Cyril_Concolato]
- DS: having the list of places where an effect is used could be useful for online editors
- 09:52:43 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ChrisL: that could fix the gradient problem
- 09:52:56 [Cyril_Concolato]
- Anthony: didn't we put wording in the spec about that ?
- 09:53:04 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ChrisL: I don't recall
- 09:53:27 [ChrisL]
- s/each effect/each graphical element/
- 09:54:45 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ED: if you have a gradient that use bouding box unit, on the gradient we could have an API to evaluate the gradient on a specific context
- 09:55:53 [shepazu]
- that would allow us to evaluate an effect on an element before it's applied, which could be useful, if it's not too expensive
- 09:56:56 [anthony]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/pservers.html#GradientsIntroduction
- 09:58:59 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ChrisL: the vector effects don't change the stroke
- 09:59:18 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ... I wonder if it would be better to separate the stroke into two halfs
- 09:59:33 [Cyril_Concolato]
- ... inside and outside so that you can manipulate them separately
- 10:00:25 [Cyril_Concolato]
- DS: that should be accessible with a short hand
- 10:01:43 [shepazu]
- it would be nice to have 'stroke-width-inner' and 'stroke-width-outer'
- 10:02:21 [shepazu]
- and shorthands should be added to the VE spec
- 11:10:03 [ed]
- ed has joined #svg
- 11:11:24 [Cyril_Concolato]
- Cyril_Concolato has joined #svg
- 11:12:30 [ed]
- topic: SVG 1.1 Last Call
- 11:12:35 [ChrisL]
- scribenick: tbah
- 11:12:46 [ChrisL]
- Topic: SVG 1.1SE Last Call
- 11:13:59 [ed]
- http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/24
- 11:14:11 [ChrisL]
- http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/DoC/dump.html
- 11:16:18 [ed]
- CL: don't check the file in, gets picked up by tracker and linked to every issue
- 11:17:23 [tbah]
- DS: How do we treat conflicts with other specs? As last call items?
- 11:19:26 [shepazu]
- s/How do we treat conflicts with other specs? As last call items?/what about the issue with SVG pointer-events on the svg root, esp. used in HTML
- 11:19:30 [ChrisL]
- http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/DoC/getxml.html
- 11:24:40 [ed]
- that's ISSUE-2364, right?
- 11:24:54 [ed]
- ISSUE-2364?
- 11:24:54 [trackbot]
- ISSUE-2364 -- SVG 1.1 may be ambiguous about the root element acting as a proximal event target -- raised
- 11:24:54 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2364
- 11:24:56 [tbah]
- ChrisL: Don't close issues for last call or they disappear (XSLT doesn't pick it up).
- 11:25:24 [ChrisL]
- s/dissapear/dissapear from the autogenerated disposition of comments/
- 11:26:23 [ChrisL]
- action-2800?
- 11:26:23 [trackbot]
- ACTION-2800 -- Chris Lilley to send in and track the media type registration for image/svg+xml -- due 2010-06-24 -- OPEN
- 11:26:23 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2800
- 11:29:05 [tbah]
- ChrisL: Received comment that there should have two different media types for svg and compressed svg.
- 11:31:27 [tbah]
- ChrisL/Cyril: But this isn't necessary since it is handled by content headers.
- 11:35:04 [tbah]
- ChrisL: Please look at registration to see how SVG content is handled by clipboards; does it work?
- 11:35:37 [ChrisL]
- Macintosh Universal Type Identifier code:
- 11:35:37 [ChrisL]
- org.w3c.svg conforms to public.image and to public.xml
- 11:35:37 [ChrisL]
- Windows Clipboard Name:
- 11:35:37 [ChrisL]
- "SVG Image"
- 11:35:46 [ChrisL]
- http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/mimereg.html
- 11:37:07 [ChrisL]
- don't know for kde or gnome, do they use internet media type?
- 11:37:56 [ChrisL]
- tracker, status
- 11:38:03 [ChrisL]
- trackbot, status
- 11:38:34 [ChrisL]
- action: tavmjong to investigate Inkscape SVG on clipboard usage
- 11:38:34 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-2833 - Investigate Inkscape SVG on clipboard usage [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2010-09-10].
- 11:40:01 [shepazu]
- http://svg-whiz.com/svg/HideShow.svg
- 11:40:13 [shepazu]
- I copy-pasted that with FF
- 11:46:30 [tbah]
- tav: Inkscape seems to copy as text the svg file... but will investigate further.
- 11:50:41 [tbah]
- DS: It sounds like ChrisL has done due diigence on establihed precedents.
- 11:51:30 [ChrisL]
- Copy and pasting the text is needed, but is separate from copy pasting an image (for example to drop into a dtp program)
- 11:52:32 [shepazu]
- s/It sounds like ChrisL has done due diigence on establihed precedents/It sounds like ChrisL has done due diligence on established precedents
- 11:52:48 [ChrisL]
- I checked what MathML did and looked at some documentation for windows and macosx; did not find good docs for linux gnome, or kde
- 11:53:12 [tbah]
- ED: Is there something to specify if the content is gzipped or not?
- 11:53:46 [ChrisL]
- action-2809?
- 11:53:47 [trackbot]
- ACTION-2809 -- Erik Dahlström to investigate ISSUE-2334 and report back -- due 2010-07-06 -- OPEN
- 11:53:47 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2809
- 11:55:20 [tbah]
- ED: Basically done, will write an email.
- 11:55:31 [ChrisL]
- action-2812?
- 11:55:31 [trackbot]
- ACTION-2812 -- Erik Dahlström to find the test case, commit it and make some proposed wording -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
- 11:55:31 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2812
- 11:56:43 [ChrisL]
- relates to ISSUE-2335 -- Clarify feConvolveMatrix bias property, specificasly the bias attribute
- 11:57:00 [tbah]
- ED: Finding the test case probably not too hard, but will need to check that it does what people want.
- 11:57:22 [ChrisL]
- action-2813?
- 11:57:24 [trackbot]
- ACTION-2813 -- Chris Lilley to propose wording for ISSUE-2336 to say if it is malformed it doesn't have an effect -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
- 11:57:24 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2813
- 11:58:14 [tbah]
- ChrisL: Change checked in, no comment back from commentor.
- 12:00:38 [ChrisL]
- ah, i now see he did agree http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Jul/0081.html
- 12:01:21 [ChrisL]
- action-2814?
- 12:01:21 [trackbot]
- ACTION-2814 -- Anthony Grasso to add wording to the specification to say that the behaviour is unspecified for those cases in ISSUE-2337 -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
- 12:01:21 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2814
- 12:02:13 [tbah]
- Anthony: Still working on it.
- 12:02:24 [ChrisL]
- action-2817?
- 12:02:24 [trackbot]
- ACTION-2817 -- Chris Lilley to add the promised note relating to ISSUE-2340 -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
- 12:02:24 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2817
- 12:02:48 [ChrisL]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010JulSep/0010.html
- 12:03:42 [tbah]
- ChrisL: Made test case, got different results in different implemenations.
- 12:06:54 [ChrisL]
- erik: check animval in the dom to be sure its not cut off at the semicolon
- 12:09:50 [ChrisL]
- <animate keytimes="0s, 2.9s" attributeName="xlink:href" values="../images/linkingCircle-f.svg#svgView(viewBox(120,200,40,40));../images/linkingCircle-f.svg#svgView(viewBox(64,227,72,72))"
- 12:11:30 [tbah]
- ED: Try quote marks.
- 12:11:37 [ChrisL]
- erik: try quote marks around each uri
- 12:11:44 [tbah]
- DS: Is that allowed?
- 12:12:05 [ChrisL]
- <animate keytimes="0s, 2.9s" attributeName="xlink:href" values="'../images/linkingCircle-f.svg#svgView(viewBox(120,200,40,40))';'../images/linkingCircle-f.svg#svgView(viewBox(64,227,72,72))'"
- 12:12:56 [ChrisL]
- sowe would then say that inside quotes, ; is not treated as a smil values list separator
- 12:16:08 [ChrisL]
- erik: you could use url escaping too
- 12:17:59 [ChrisL]
- so %3B would be the escape here
- 12:19:28 [tbah]
- Cryil: Would first split list by ; and then evaluate.
- 12:20:24 [tbah]
- DS: Quoting would be nicer... maybe something for SVG2.
- 12:20:37 [cyril]
- s/Cryil/Cyril/
- 12:20:49 [tbah]
- ChrisL: Will still work on this.
- 12:20:49 [ChrisL]
- ok so I will make a new test, with percent escaping and check in the dom for animval
- 12:21:17 [ChrisL]
- action-2818?
- 12:21:18 [trackbot]
- ACTION-2818 -- Chris Lilley to investigate ISSUE-2341 and look for previous comments -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
- 12:21:18 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2818
- 12:23:39 [tbah]
- Cyril: Propose to copy 1.2Tiny text.
- 12:24:00 [tbah]
- ChrisL: Will do that if no one objects.
- 12:24:03 [ChrisL]
- this text http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/animate.html#complexDistances
- 12:24:58 [ChrisL]
- action-2821?
- 12:25:01 [trackbot]
- ACTION-2821 -- Chris Lilley to update the references section for issue-2344 -- due 2010-07-13 -- OPEN
- 12:25:01 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2821
- 12:26:35 [ChrisL]
- cyril: need to update 'list of' in types section too
- 12:27:15 [tbah]
- ChrisL: Changed and approved.
- 12:27:27 [ChrisL]
- issue is closed, commentor agrees
- 12:28:16 [tbah]
- ED: Need actions for rest of items.
- 12:29:33 [ed]
- ISSUE-2364?
- 12:29:33 [trackbot]
- ISSUE-2364 -- SVG 1.1 may be ambiguous about the root element acting as a proximal event target -- raised
- 12:29:33 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2364
- 12:31:24 [shepazu]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Aug/0011.html
- 12:34:29 [shepazu]
- http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/content.xhtml
- 12:34:41 [shepazu]
- http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/overlap.xhtml
- 12:35:05 [ChrisL]
- (updated disposition of comments at http://www.w3.org/2010/09/SVG1.1SE-LastCall/dump.html )
- 12:36:56 [tbah]
- If you have an SVG plugin in HTML, and you click on a non-existent backround, should the event be passed through?
- 12:37:07 [tbah]
- Cyril: Answer: No.
- 12:37:53 [shepazu]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/interact.html#PointerEvents
- 12:38:39 [ChrisL]
- s/If/DS: If/
- 12:39:27 [ChrisL]
- s/No/It can refuse to handle the event and pass it back to the system, so the containing application will handle it/
- 12:42:37 [anthony]
- Scribe: Anthony
- 12:42:46 [anthony]
- ScribeNick: anthony
- 12:43:10 [anthony]
- DS: Now all browsers are consistent for referenced content
- 12:43:17 [anthony]
- ... they violate the SVG spec
- 12:43:24 [anthony]
- ED: The point about the reference object
- 12:44:06 [anthony]
- ... The behaviour would be hard to change
- 12:44:15 [anthony]
- ... and violate some security protocols
- 12:44:28 [anthony]
- CC: Looking at overlap.xhtml
- 12:44:34 [anthony]
- ... when you click on inline
- 12:44:40 [anthony]
- ... on the bottom
- 12:44:47 [anthony]
- ... you get two events
- 12:44:50 [anthony]
- DS: Look at the code
- 12:44:54 [anthony]
- ... it's a single event
- 12:44:59 [anthony]
- ... but two boxes
- 12:45:05 [anthony]
- ... on question is does the event bubble
- 12:45:16 [anthony]
- ... bubbles for an inline case
- 12:45:22 [anthony]
- ED: It's never bubbled between documents
- 12:45:51 [anthony]
- CC: I think the inline case is correctly implemented
- 12:45:53 [anthony]
- DS: No
- 12:45:59 [anthony]
- ... it's not in FireFox
- 12:46:09 [anthony]
- AG: Want it to be consistent
- 12:46:21 [anthony]
- DS: Click the background
- 12:46:25 [anthony]
- ... which is incorrect
- 12:46:46 [anthony]
- ED: I'd assume that the click goes through transparent areas
- 12:46:56 [anthony]
- CC: We need to agree on behaviours and see if it's correct in the spec
- 12:47:06 [anthony]
- DS: Need to look at use cases and interpretations
- 12:47:35 [anthony]
- ... so, the argument was raised that treading SVG like a <div> since it has dimensions if you clicked inside that <div>
- 12:47:39 [anthony]
- ... it dispatches the event
- 12:47:51 [anthony]
- CC: Even with transparent background?
- 12:47:52 [anthony]
- DS: Yes
- 12:48:04 [anthony]
- ... so question is have to establish what the default is
- 12:48:08 [anthony]
- ... and how do you change it
- 12:48:38 [anthony]
- ED: We had something like FireFox
- 12:48:46 [anthony]
- ... but we asked to change it
- 12:48:59 [anthony]
- CC: Have to be consistent with SVG in HTML and SVG in SVG
- 12:49:04 [anthony]
- DS: We need to look at the spec
- 12:49:18 [anthony]
- ... currently, Opera and Webkit behave one way with inline SVG
- 12:49:27 [anthony]
- ... the SVG root does not intercept events
- 12:49:53 [anthony]
- ... it passes them through
- 12:50:37 [anthony]
- CC: Nothing happens in the SVG context
- 12:50:41 [anthony]
- ... regards to this event
- 12:50:48 [anthony]
- DS: SVG spec is moderately clear on this
- 12:51:18 [shepazu]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/interact.html#UIEventProcessing
- 12:51:29 [anthony]
- CC: IE9 is doing as Opera is doing
- 12:51:44 [anthony]
- DS: I would prefer that inline and referenced SVG behaved the same way
- 12:51:52 [anthony]
- ED: Changing that now
- 12:51:56 [anthony]
- ... would be bad for SVG in general
- 12:52:08 [anthony]
- ... people have come to expect certain behaviour
- 12:59:07 [anthony]
- All: [16.5 Read through Processing order for user interface events]
- 13:00:05 [anthony]
- DS: Clarify that this section is about hit testing and not propagation
- 13:00:13 [anthony]
- ED: Would be better if there was a graph here
- 13:00:32 [anthony]
- DS: Problem with the section is it confuses hit testing, event propagation and order of processing
- 13:01:35 [anthony]
- ED: It's trying to describe a flowchart or something
- 13:02:10 [anthony]
- DS: Doesn't talk about things like selecting graphics elements
- 13:03:13 [anthony]
- ... when SVG was written we didn't talk about default view or window
- 13:03:36 [anthony]
- ED: How would you change this?
- 13:03:42 [anthony]
- DS: Instead of processing order
- 13:03:48 [anthony]
- ... I would break it down to a section on hit testing
- 13:04:04 [anthony]
- CC: Something has been hit? something not hit?
- 13:04:14 [anthony]
- DS: Yes, if something hit. Go through and process actions
- 13:04:21 [anthony]
- ... If it has not been hit
- 13:04:26 [anthony]
- ... give a context menu
- 13:04:34 [anthony]
- ED: Would be nice to have an SVG graph
- 13:04:45 [anthony]
- ... down the side
- 13:04:51 [anthony]
- ... that matches the text
- 13:05:09 [anthony]
- AG: I agree, much easier to read and implement
- 13:06:27 [anthony]
- ED: It's pretty clear what needs to be done
- 13:07:08 [anthony]
- DS: So we are going to do this in SVG 1.1 Full 2nd edition
- 13:07:17 [anthony]
- CC: We have this text in Tiny 1.2
- 13:07:29 [anthony]
- DS: We pulled out the part on pseudo classes
- 13:07:49 [anthony]
- CC: Has this other bit - 13.8 Event dispatching
- 13:07:52 [anthony]
- ED: It's different
- 13:07:59 [anthony]
- ... but might need an errata on Tiny 1.2
- 13:09:09 [anthony]
- ACTION: Doug to Clarify section 16.5 Processing order for user interface events relating to problems in ISSUE-2364
- 13:09:09 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-2834 - Clarify section 16.5 Processing order for user interface events relating to problems in ISSUE-2364 [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-10].
- 13:09:18 [anthony]
- CC: What about key events?
- 13:09:24 [anthony]
- DS: That's another matter
- 13:09:35 [anthony]
- ... that's why saying this is about hit testing is relevant
- 13:09:52 [anthony]
- CC: That's a whole different discussion. But at some point someone should investigate this
- 13:10:19 [anthony]
- DS: ED you're saying for security reasons, you're not going to allow events to pass through in an iFrame
- 13:10:26 [anthony]
- ... It's the same in object
- 13:10:31 [anthony]
- ... and if you change the one
- 13:10:36 [anthony]
- ... people would expect the other to change
- 13:11:01 [anthony]
- ED: If you have an <img> element it's like a static image with no script and no events
- 13:11:08 [anthony]
- ... so it's the HTML you're getting events on
- 13:11:16 [anthony]
- DS: Do you treat image and object the same?
- 13:11:21 [anthony]
- ED: No
- 13:11:36 [anthony]
- ED: I assume object, embed and iframe behave the same
- 13:11:42 [anthony]
- ... embed not so much
- 13:11:56 [anthony]
- ... object and iframe is mostly the same I think
- 13:12:26 [anthony]
- CC: What about SVG <image>
- 13:12:33 [anthony]
- ED: It's defined in the spec
- 13:12:42 [anthony]
- ... but should behave the way as <img>
- 13:12:52 [anthony]
- DS: I understand why are you doing this
- 13:13:00 [anthony]
- ... but for content creation it's a pain
- 13:13:21 [anthony]
- ... say you have some SVG and you want to click through on the element and where there isn't SVG content you
- 13:13:25 [anthony]
- ... want to get to the HTML
- 13:13:41 [anthony]
- ED: So you if you have transparency you get the HTML?
- 13:13:52 [anthony]
- ... Does the same thing happen for PNG?
- 13:13:59 [anthony]
- ... So we treat it the same
- 13:14:06 [anthony]
- DS: I'm talking for object here
- 13:14:12 [anthony]
- ED: Not sure we are talking about the same thing
- 13:14:22 [anthony]
- DS: Look at my example
- 13:17:59 [anthony]
- ...We need to have a larger discussion about clicking through the transparent content would be a problem
- 13:19:40 [anthony]
- AG: This would be a good thing to discuss at TPAC
- 13:20:56 [anthony]
- CC: When the SVG is in the document it's behaviour is the same as a <div>
- 13:21:19 [anthony]
- DS: I'm saying for the inline case
- 13:22:04 [anthony]
- ... Maybe this needs to happen during a telcon
- 13:22:30 [anthony]
- ... because we want all browsers to have the correct behaviour
- 13:24:23 [anthony]
- ED: There might be use cases the other way
- 13:24:37 [anthony]
- ... not just having events go through
- 13:24:57 [anthony]
- DS: I said you set pointerEvents to all
- 13:25:34 [anthony]
- ... as I suggested
- 13:26:41 [anthony]
- ED: I just think this is something that goes beyond SVG content
- 13:27:42 [anthony]
- CL: Could probably put that wording in the integration spec
- 13:29:04 [anthony]
- DS: A quick test that mouse move on an empty SVG document intercepts i.e. the root dispatches the event
- 13:29:26 [anthony]
- ... All the modern browsers I tested
- 13:29:54 [anthony]
- ... this is contrary to ASV and seems to be contrary to the spec
- 13:30:03 [anthony]
- ... but is consistent with HTML
- 14:05:10 [anthony]
- ACTION: Doug to Add a table to the integration document about the embedded and inline SVG with regards to pointer events on the SVG root
- 14:05:11 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-2835 - Add a table to the integration document about the embedded and inline SVG with regards to pointer events on the SVG root [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-10].
- 14:05:24 [anthony]
- ISSUE-2363?
- 14:05:24 [trackbot]
- ISSUE-2363 -- Last Call Comment: Reconcile 'stroke' presentation attributes on <image> -- raised
- 14:05:24 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2363
- 14:05:46 [anthony]
- ED: I think Cameron and me have responded to this on the list
- 14:05:51 [anthony]
- ... saying what we have now in the spec
- 14:06:12 [anthony]
- ... is a lot better than what was in previous 1.1 spec
- 14:06:29 [anthony]
- ... so in the previous 1.1 spec we had DTD to say what attributes where on each element
- 14:06:45 [anthony]
- ... so now have something that can be expanded and is more readable and made it more clear
- 14:06:52 [anthony]
- ... that presentation attributes can be specified anywhere
- 14:07:05 [anthony]
- ... even if they don't apply to it
- 14:07:26 [anthony]
- CL: So specified and applied to are distinguished?
- 14:07:29 [anthony]
- ED: Yes
- 14:07:36 [anthony]
- CL: Therefore we should reject the comment
- 14:07:49 [ed]
- s/apply to it/apply to the element it's specified on/
- 14:08:00 [anthony]
- ... because it's a no change required
- 14:08:36 [anthony]
- CL: The issue was raised by Doug
- 14:10:05 [ed]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/masking.html#ObjectAndGroupOpacityProperties
- 14:10:07 [anthony]
- DS: Please show me where it's specified
- 14:10:11 [anthony]
- ED: That's one example
- 14:10:17 [anthony]
- ... it clearly says applies to
- 14:10:27 [shepazu]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/struct.html#ImageElement
- 14:10:27 [anthony]
- DS: However if you go to here
- 14:10:43 [anthony]
- DS: And you click on the, presentation attributes, it lists it
- 14:10:48 [anthony]
- CL: That's right
- 14:10:51 [anthony]
- ... exactly
- 14:10:55 [anthony]
- ... it doesn't apply to it
- 14:11:16 [anthony]
- DS: I was talking to someone on IRC and they were trying to do this
- 14:11:23 [anthony]
- ... (stroke image element)
- 14:11:33 [anthony]
- ... and they go to the presentation attributes they can set on the elemnt
- 14:11:44 [anthony]
- s/elemnt/element/
- 14:11:59 [anthony]
- DS: I think we should change the spec to things that have an effect on the element
- 14:12:08 [anthony]
- CL: So it's currently done the other way
- 14:12:14 [anthony]
- ... for each property it says what it applies to
- 14:12:26 [anthony]
- ... this is an argument we've had since the entire life time on the SVG
- 14:13:02 [anthony]
- ... then others say somethings should be set only on an element only
- 14:13:14 [anthony]
- ... in some cases things would be disallowed because when children
- 14:13:22 [anthony]
- ... were placed in the element
- 14:13:29 [anthony]
- ... sometimes things apply
- 14:13:49 [anthony]
- DS: Maybe it's the choice on how fine grain things are categorised
- 14:14:06 [anthony]
- CL: This is going against a decision that was made 2 -3 years ago
- 14:14:11 [anthony]
- ... it's a huge change
- 14:14:15 [anthony]
- ... to be doing this
- 14:14:18 [anthony]
- DS: Let's be clear
- 14:14:22 [anthony]
- ... we all agree it is confusing
- 14:14:28 [anthony]
- CL: It could be confusing
- 14:14:32 [anthony]
- ED: In some cases yes
- 14:14:44 [anthony]
- DS: It has been proven to be confusing to some people
- 14:14:47 [anthony]
- ... including me
- 14:15:33 [anthony]
- CL: Presentation attributes are in the form of properties
- 14:15:52 [tbah]
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- 14:16:00 [anthony]
- CC: As an implementer it reads well
- 14:16:03 [anthony]
- ... as an author
- 14:16:06 [anthony]
- ... it probably doesn't
- 14:16:13 [anthony]
- ... what matters at least someone can be confused
- 14:16:21 [anthony]
- ED: What are you suggesting?
- 14:16:22 [tbah]
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- 14:16:34 [anthony]
- DS: Is it work the extra time to do this, to change it
- 14:16:41 [anthony]
- CL: Change how?
- 14:17:05 [anthony]
- DS: So, maybe in this case if we wanted to do the minimum work if it could some how be styled differently
- 14:17:09 [anthony]
- ... if it has an effect an element
- 14:17:15 [anthony]
- ED: Yes, that would be nice
- 14:17:18 [anthony]
- ... make them bold
- 14:17:23 [anthony]
- ... if they applied to the element
- 14:17:31 [anthony]
- CC: As long as it is editorial
- 14:17:38 [anthony]
- CL: It will be editorial
- 14:17:57 [anthony]
- ... with all the presentation attributes it is a link which takes you to the definition
- 14:18:07 [anthony]
- DS: How is this generated?
- 14:18:16 [anthony]
- ED: It's generated from the XML, IDL
- 14:19:32 [anthony]
- CL: Another thing we could do to make the spec better
- 14:19:43 [anthony]
- ... is to say the difference between applies to and specified on
- 14:20:35 [anthony]
- CC: Adding the new sentence you said will help
- 14:20:44 [anthony]
- ... but changing the style and linking to that
- 14:20:49 [anthony]
- ... would at least give a hint that it's not that simple
- 14:21:02 [anthony]
- ... having it in bold would say would it apply
- 14:21:11 [anthony]
- ... it's precise and it's clear
- 14:21:16 [anthony]
- ... but it doesn't speak to most of the people
- 14:21:29 [anthony]
- ED: My objection is don't we have that sentence somewhere?
- 14:21:38 [anthony]
- ... styling?
- 14:21:51 [anthony]
- ... I would not want to have two sentence that say two different things about the same topic
- 14:21:57 [anthony]
- DS: There is a sentence here in styling
- 14:22:01 [anthony]
- ... two links away
- 14:22:32 [anthony]
- ED: Specificity of 0 is in there 6.4
- 14:22:35 [shepazu]
- [[
- 14:22:43 [shepazu]
- For user agents that support CSS, the presentation attributes must be translated to corresponding CSS style rules according to rules described in Precedence of non-CSS presentational hints ([CSS2], section 6.4.4), with the additional clarification that the presentation attributes are conceptually inserted into a new author style sheet which is the first in the author style sheet collection. The presentation attributes thus will participate in the CSS2 cascade
- 14:22:43 [shepazu]
- ]]
- 14:23:06 [anthony]
- CL: The section on presentation attributes could have it in there
- 14:23:14 [anthony]
- DS: That would be two links away
- 14:23:15 [shepazu]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/intro.html#TermPresentationAttribute
- 14:23:21 [anthony]
- ... could have it here so that it's one link away
- 14:24:48 [anthony]
- DS: Could say "Note not all presentation attributes specified on an element will apply to the element. For a list of elements that a property applies to see... blah"
- 14:26:33 [anthony]
- ... how hard would it be style them bold or normal?
- 14:26:39 [anthony]
- ED: I think that would be a bit of work
- 14:26:48 [anthony]
- ... I don't think we have a list or things
- 14:26:58 [anthony]
- ... adding the sentences here would be less work
- 14:27:21 [anthony]
- DS: In SVG 2. I would like us to re examine if we can have a stroke around the edge of an image?
- 14:27:28 [anthony]
- CL: Wouldn't that be a border?
- 14:27:54 [anthony]
- DS: Depends on if we allow padding around it and borders have different properties to borders
- 14:29:09 [anthony]
- ACTION: Chris to Include the above disclaimer about the applicability of presentation attributes on elements
- 14:29:09 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-2836 - Include the above disclaimer about the applicability of presentation attributes on elements [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-09-10].
- 14:29:47 [anthony]
- Topic: SVG 1.1 2nd Edition Candidate Recommendation
- 14:35:08 [tbah]
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- 14:38:45 [cyril]
- cyril has joined #svg
- 15:12:03 [ChrisL]
- ChrisL has joined #svg
- 15:12:15 [anthony]
- back from break
- 15:14:13 [anthony]
- DS: First we need to agree on the set of tests that make up the SVG 1.1 2nd edition test suite
- 15:16:00 [anthony]
- CL: Previously, the action of building the test suit generated all the files to do the testing
- 15:16:20 [f1lt3r]
- f1lt3r has joined #svg
- 15:16:32 [anthony]
- AG: I believe the reporting stuff is working
- 15:16:54 [anthony]
- ACTION: Anthony to Check if report generation for the test suite is working and report back
- 15:16:54 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-2837 - Check if report generation for the test suite is working and report back [on Anthony Grasso - due 2010-09-10].
- 15:17:32 [anthony]
- AG: So the way the test suite generation scripts work is you have a list of tests and every component in the test suite
- 15:17:42 [anthony]
- ... is generated according to that list
- 15:20:39 [anthony]
- DS: For all the tests we don't have results on, each implementer can run the tests and report back to us
- 15:25:14 [anthony]
- ACTION: Doug to Run the tests on Safari on Mac
- 15:25:14 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-2838 - Run the tests on Safari on Mac [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-09-10].
- 15:25:31 [anthony]
- ACTION: Chris to Run the tests on Firefox on Windows
- 15:25:32 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-2839 - Run the tests on Firefox on Windows [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-09-10].
- 15:26:01 [anthony]
- ACTION: Erik to Run the tests on Opera
- 15:26:01 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-2840 - Run the tests on Opera [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-09-10].
- 15:26:35 [anthony]
- ACTION: Cyril to Run the tests on GPac
- 15:26:36 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-2841 - Run the tests on GPac [on Cyril Concolato - due 2010-09-10].
- 15:26:50 [anthony]
- ACTION: Tav to Run the tests on Inkscape
- 15:26:50 [trackbot]
- Sorry, couldn't find user - Tav
- 15:27:12 [anthony]
- ACTION: Tavmjong to Run the tests on Inkscape
- 15:27:12 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-2842 - Run the tests on Inkscape [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2010-09-10].
- 15:33:41 [anthony]
- Topics: Connectors
- 15:34:08 [anthony]
- CL: So that was news to me that you could make a complex path going through a few points
- 15:36:18 [anthony]
- TB: We have a sophisticated routing than what's proposed. But because the path between objects can be enhanced
- 15:36:29 [anthony]
- ... we wouldn't be losing anything that's already in inkscape
- 15:39:00 [anthony]
- DS: [Demo's current connectors implementation]
- 15:43:02 [anthony]
- ... Connector goes from centroid to centroid
- 15:44:14 [anthony]
- AG: This could be difficult to calculate
- 15:44:26 [anthony]
- ... particularly if you're clipping parts of an object out
- 15:44:45 [anthony]
- CL: Why not the center of the bounding box?
- 15:45:35 [cyril]
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- 15:48:23 [anthony]
- DS: Different possible syntax for point
- 15:48:32 [anthony]
- ... if you're looking at the bounding box of the parent
- 15:48:50 [anthony]
- ... it'd be useful to allow a percentage of the parent bounding box
- 15:49:41 [anthony]
- ... A port has a specific role of point
- 15:49:49 [anthony]
- ... it is a child of a shape
- 15:50:07 [anthony]
- ... point is a non rendering element
- 15:50:15 [anthony]
- ... you can style it with a marker
- 15:50:23 [anthony]
- CL: Effectively it's a zero length line
- 15:51:32 [anthony]
- DS: Each node being linked to has a port that will be preferential to where connection is made
- 15:51:54 [anthony]
- ... it will always go to the nearest between two ports
- 15:51:59 [anthony]
- TB: Can you specify
- 15:52:40 [anthony]
- ... the port?
- 16:02:13 [anthony]
- DS: Yes
- 16:02:37 [anthony]
- ... I've got a sample implementation and done some work on this
- 16:02:49 [anthony]
- ... I want to know if we agree to work on this
- 16:03:34 [anthony]
- CL: Do we agree that this is the direction we should go in?
- 16:03:52 [anthony]
- CC: How would you add it, if you were to add it?
- 16:04:00 [anthony]
- ... a separate module?
- 16:04:03 [anthony]
- DS: Yes
- 16:04:09 [anthony]
- ... I'd intend for it to be part of SVG 2
- 16:04:52 [anthony]
- ... we've had a level of requests for this
- 16:05:00 [anthony]
- TB: We've had requests for this as well
- 16:05:55 [anthony]
- DS: This is a common case I've seen again and again
- 16:06:23 [anthony]
- ED: Not convinced yet
- 16:06:41 [anthony]
- DS: This is does not add, drag and drop, it does not add routing
- 16:07:04 [anthony]
- ED: Does it add any dependencies that you need to resolve?
- 16:07:16 [anthony]
- DS: There are very well defined dependencies
- 16:07:24 [anthony]
- ... when a shape is moved
- 16:07:31 [anthony]
- ... the connection changes
- 16:07:45 [anthony]
- ED: We have to track a lot of dependencies already
- 16:07:51 [anthony]
- ... the less we need to do the faster it will be
- 16:08:01 [anthony]
- ... the graph of dependencies grows
- 16:08:11 [anthony]
- ... you can do this in script
- 16:08:18 [anthony]
- ... just not convinced
- 16:08:21 [anthony]
- DS: Yes, you're right
- 16:08:39 [anthony]
- ... it's a common use case that is not easy to do in script
- 16:08:53 [anthony]
- ... it doesn't establish the semantics and behaviour
- 16:09:44 [anthony]
- ... I think it is a compelling feature that makes SVG very attractive for use
- 16:10:49 [anthony]
- CC: You could do the opposite
- 16:10:52 [anthony]
- ... and say this is a line
- 16:11:00 [anthony]
- ... and this is connector
- 16:11:05 [anthony]
- ... and then put a marker on it
- 16:11:24 [anthony]
- ... This could also be done with Cameron's constraints
- 16:11:48 [anthony]
- DS: This is a subsection of constraints. Gives people a lot of power to build things in SVG
- 16:12:07 [anthony]
- ... getting the connector for free gives people something accessible
- 16:12:39 [anthony]
- ... and graphics like this will not be accessible without this
- 16:12:48 [anthony]
- CC: Couldn't you do this with a line
- 16:12:53 [anthony]
- ... and give it a role of connector?
- 16:13:15 [anthony]
- DS: Yes, but it doesn't give the author any reason to do this
- 16:14:23 [anthony]
- ED: Why does it have to be in SVG?
- 16:14:27 [anthony]
- ... why not stand alone?
- 16:14:31 [anthony]
- ... in a completely different spec
- 16:14:38 [anthony]
- ... used in other languages
- 16:14:44 [anthony]
- DS: What other languages?
- 16:14:52 [anthony]
- ED: Connect this div to another div
- 16:14:59 [anthony]
- DS: But that is not a visual language
- 16:15:03 [anthony]
- ... SVG is a visual language
- 16:17:21 [anthony]
- ... this would pretty much the highest thing we would have at this level
- 16:17:39 [anthony]
- CC: There are two parts the rendering constraints and the semantics
- 16:18:13 [anthony]
- ... I think we can have either the semantics or the constraints
- 16:22:11 [anthony]
- CL: So I think that he is arguing
- 16:22:19 [anthony]
- ... that use <path> instead of <connector>
- 16:22:22 [anthony]
- ... point is fine
- 16:23:35 [anthony]
- ED: We should close for the day
- 16:23:41 [anthony]
- ... and continue discussion later
- 16:24:32 [anthony]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 16:24:32 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/03-svg-minutes.html anthony
- 16:24:39 [anthony]
- Zakim, bye
- 16:24:39 [Zakim]
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- 17:17:52 [Zakim]
- ChrisL, you asked to be reminded at this time to go home
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