14:30:25 RRSAgent has joined #swxg 14:30:25 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/01-swxg-irc 14:30:27 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:30:27 Zakim has joined #swxg 14:30:29 Zakim, this will be 7994 14:30:29 ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()10:30AM scheduled to start now 14:30:30 Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference 14:30:30 Date: 01 September 2010 14:31:01 mmm 14:32:43 Zakim, who's on the phone? 14:32:43 INC_SWXG()10:30AM has not yet started, hhalpin 14:32:45 On IRC I see RRSAgent, hhalpin, mischat, MacTed, oshani, renato, danbri, tlr, FabGandon, karl, AlexPassant, trackbot 14:38:41 Zakim, who's on the phone? 14:38:41 INC_SWXG()10:30AM has not yet started, hhalpin 14:38:42 On IRC I see RRSAgent, hhalpin, mischat, MacTed, oshani, renato, danbri, tlr, FabGandon, karl, AlexPassant, trackbot 14:38:56 zakim, this is SWXG 14:38:56 ok, tlr; that matches INC_SWXG()10:30AM 14:39:02 zakim, who is on the phone 14:39:02 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', tlr 14:39:04 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:39:04 On the phone I see ??P22, ??P16, [Garlik] 14:39:18 Zakim, ??P22 is hhalpin 14:39:18 +hhalpin; got it 14:39:24 Zakim, ??P16 is renato 14:39:24 +renato; got it 14:39:33 Zakim, [Garlik] is mischa 14:39:33 +mischa; got it 14:39:41 chair: hhalpin 14:39:43 zakime, mute me 14:39:45 scribe: mischa 14:39:49 zakim, mute me 14:39:49 sorry, mischat, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 14:40:01 is zakim hosed, or worth trying to dial? 14:40:08 ODRL Website http://odrl.net/ 14:40:12 zakim, call thomas-781 14:40:12 ok, tlr; the call is being made 14:40:13 danbri: call but ask for admin assitance 14:40:13 +Thomas 14:40:19 Renathttp://odrl.net/2.0/WD-ODRL-XML.html 14:40:21 zakim, I am thomas 14:40:21 ok, tlr, I now associate you with Thomas 14:40:23 zakim, mute me 14:40:23 Thomas should now be muted 14:40:28 hhalpin, is asking about ODRL 14:40:31 danbri, zakim seems to have resurrected itself 14:40:36 http://odrl.net/2.0/WD-ODRL-Vocab.html 14:40:43 renato: ODRL was developed around 10 years ago 14:40:45 everything is still kinda XML :) 14:40:54 renato: in the XML world of DRM 14:40:59 http://odrl.net/2.0/DS-ODRL-Model.html 14:41:22 renato: ODRL is for expressing right, trying to abstract away from DRM, it is was intended to be a more general policy language 14:41:49 Which handsets? 14:41:59 I see Nokia and Vodafone... 14:42:03 on the web-pgae 14:42:04 renato: saying that the biggest deployment is actually a DRM based handset 14:42:07 +[IPcaller] 14:42:15 zakim, [IPcaller] is danbri 14:42:15 +danbri; got it 14:42:18 ODRL can also handle creative commons 14:42:30 also, do we have a URI for creative commons? 14:42:30 there are a bunch of working groups 14:42:39 ODRL is going to be a policy language 14:42:43 in version 2.0 14:42:43 Editors draft http://odrl.net/2.0/DS-ODRL-Model-20100831.html 14:43:09 the new model ^^ (updated yesterday), it now based around policies 14:43:14 and not around rights 14:43:36 SN use cases http://odrl.net/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=Social+Networks+Profile 14:43:48 ODRL have been looking at requirement for describing policies for social networking 14:44:12 ^^ trying to express social networking constructs such as "all of my groups" or "all my connections" 14:44:30 DAP? 14:44:32 W3C Privacy Rulesets Editor's Draft 21 April 2010 14:44:39 and how such things would be expressed in a machine-readable manner 14:44:41 http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/privacy-rulesets/ 14:44:47 yes that is a part of DAP 14:45:00 http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/privacy-rulesets/ 14:45:02 Express in ODRL: http://odrl.net/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=W3C+Privacy+Rulesets 14:45:09 the privacy-rulesets work has got some use cases around social networking use cases 14:45:31 ODRL group have mapped the use cases drawn out by the DAP 14:45:42 :) 14:46:13 ODRL are trying to prove that the social networking use cases can be expressed in ODRL 2.0 14:46:23 there is an XML encoding 14:46:25 maybe a RIF encoding? 14:46:39 people from Koblenz are looking at an RDF and OWL encoding 14:46:51 ORDL think that these are all very important 14:46:59 s/ORDL/ODRL/ 14:47:14 the "plus collation"? 14:47:32 ODRL are looking at ACAP (access control) people 14:47:33 ? 14:47:42 renato: can you clarify those two groups in IRC ? 14:48:04 PLUS Coalition http://www.useplus.com/ 14:48:45 ACAP http://www.the-acap.org/ 14:48:51 http://www.useplus.com/aboutplus/coalition.asp 14:49:08 PLUC Coalition and ACAP (automated content) access protocol -> http://www.the-acap.org/ 14:49:09 ? 14:49:25 hhalpin: asked if you can express payment / monitary obligations 14:49:37 so yes, you can express payments in the ODRL 14:49:54 ODRL is a community/grass roots organisations 14:50:17 the work is undertaken in good will, and lots of momentum this last year 14:50:40 ODRL are thinking that the W3C could be a good place to host the ODRL as a standard for policy language 14:50:42 q+ 14:51:01 q+ 14:51:15 ODRL would like to see an easy way to express policy for web content 14:52:27 w3c had a DRM workshop in 2001, and ODRL was there, and renato feels that now is time that policy/privacy standards need to expressed 14:52:31 oshani has joined #swxg 14:53:00 ack mischa 14:53:00 ODRL has done the work of designing policy/privacy standards, and they feel that they can get the ball rolling quickly 14:53:05 zakim, unmute me 14:53:05 sorry, mischat, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 14:53:15 zakim, unmute me 14:53:15 sorry, mischat, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 14:53:40 Zakim, unmute me 14:53:40 hhalpin was not muted, hhalpin 14:53:46 Zakim, unmute Mischa 14:53:46 mischa was not muted, hhalpin 14:53:48 zakim, unmute mischa 14:53:48 mischa was not muted, mischat 14:56:44 renato: ODRL is talking to OneSocialWeb 14:56:50 an XMPP binding is in planned for one social web 14:57:32 3 concepts : Access Control, Usage Control, Privacy Control 14:57:48 Access Control => authenticate, and then see content 14:58:09 Permission Control => reuse of such data 14:58:17 so policy has a focus on re-use and obligations (i.e. credit, payment) 14:58:28 dom has joined #swxg 14:58:32 Privacy Control => Putting obligations ontop 14:59:00 zakim, mute mischa 14:59:00 mischa should now be muted 14:59:06 (are openid folk joining in 2mins?) 14:59:19 hhalpin: asked what is the next concrete step for ODRL ? 14:59:38 renato: from ODRL's POV they would like a working group 14:59:58 renato: thinks that there is enough expertise 15:00:07 it needs to scoped, not to general 15:00:24 DKA has joined #swxg 15:00:34 re WGs, what's W3C's annual 'active WG' budget? 15:00:54 + +1.415.846.aaaa 15:00:55 RIF 15:00:58 and AIR ? 15:01:13 privacy-rulesets 15:01:16 not privacy-icons 15:01:28 + +1.510.931.aabb 15:01:42 2 ppl joined 15:01:45 +OpenLink_Software 15:01:47 zakim, code? 15:01:47 the conference code is 7994 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), dom 15:01:49 + +1.503.341.aacc 15:01:55 loads of people ! 15:02:04 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:02:04 On the phone I see hhalpin, renato, mischa (muted), Thomas (muted), danbri, +1.415.846.aaaa, +1.510.931.aabb, OpenLink_Software, +1.503.341.aacc 15:02:06 Zakim, aabb is bblfish 15:02:06 +bblfish; got it 15:02:14 Privacy icons paper http://virtualgoods.org/2010/program.html 15:02:18 Zakim, Dick is aaaa 15:02:18 sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named 'Dick' 15:02:18 dratted calendar didn't adjust my start time :-( 15:02:20 I recommend reviewing the workshop report 15:02:22 http://www.w3.org/2010/api-privacy-ws/report.html 15:02:31 Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 15:02:31 +MacTed; got it 15:02:38 +??P17 15:02:41 zakim, ??P17 is me 15:02:41 +dom; got it 15:02:44 renato: thinks that we should be pushing WG 15:02:53 + +1.617.513.aadd 15:02:54 -hhalpin 15:02:57 bye 15:02:59 tlr, does w3c have a figure for how many WGs can run at same time, roughly? 15:03:20 Zakim, who's here? 15:03:20 On the phone I see renato, mischa (muted), Thomas (muted), danbri, +1.415.846.aaaa, bblfish, MacTed, +1.503.341.aacc, dom, +1.617.513.aadd 15:03:22 On IRC I see DKA, dom, Zakim, RRSAgent, hhalpin, mischat, MacTed, danbri, tlr, FabGandon, karl, AlexPassant, trackbot 15:03:29 OpenID Connect and Facebook Connect 15:03:36 manu_ has joined #swxg 15:03:39 Zakim, aaaa is Dick 15:03:39 +Dick; got it 15:03:51 is this OpenID Connect -and- OpenID vNext? 15:03:58 yes 15:04:10 not fb connect, then (as scribed above) 15:04:14 :) 15:04:38 zakim, code? 15:04:38 the conference code is 7994 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu_ 15:04:38 Dick: talking about OpenID vNext 15:04:58 bblfish has joined #swxg 15:05:12 since the OpenID Connect came about, it has then dried up some energy around vNExt 15:05:24 openid mailing lists: http://openid.net/developers/dev-mailing-lists 15:05:30 + +8014aaee 15:05:30 vNext was meant to fix some issues around openid, security 15:05:37 http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo 15:05:37 zakim, I am aaee 15:05:37 +manu_; got it 15:05:52 one of the goals was to allow too into key's/browser based support for openid 15:06:09 Zakim, mute me 15:06:09 MacTed should now be muted 15:06:13 1 discovery, 2 protocol 3 usability 4 attributes 15:06:22 the working has been broken up into ^^ 15:06:36 various people have been interested in various different aspects 15:06:49 zakim, who is making noise ? 15:06:55 +DKA 15:06:58 vNext looked like a lot of work 15:07:00 mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 11 (64%), bblfish (5%), +1.503.341.aacc (79%) 15:07:04 zakim, mute me 15:07:04 DKA should now be muted 15:07:08 so openid connect came around 15:07:39 they noticed that identity alone 15:07:43 was going to cause mass adoption 15:07:49 was NOT 15:08:22 so, it seemed that you needed more than just identity, this can be seen in the adoption of facebook connect 15:09:00 OAuth was never designed to be used by humans 15:09:07 no concept of identity, discovery 15:09:25 OpenID connect includes profile+APIs+identity out of standardized patterns 15:09:26 OpenID Connect, is trying to combine identity, APIs, and profile 15:09:27 information 15:09:34 like we are seeing on the web today 15:10:07 q+ to ask about crypto-backed identity 15:10:20 q+ to ask what you say when people ask if they're 2 technologies in competition 15:10:41 hhalpin: there is this talk of the national id system? which must be heavy security? What is the OpenID's take on this 15:11:11 US gov has a different focus from the european counterparts 15:11:24 the US gov are not talking about issuing identity 15:11:41 there is lots of work by John Bradley (?) 15:12:03 looking at how to make openid profiles more security 15:12:24 openid 2.0 is fairly low on security 15:12:30 there is also work by (?) 15:12:44 using artifact binding 15:12:58 q+ 15:13:23 one of the goals of the OpenID vNext was to move up the security stack 15:13:28 level 2 or something ... 15:14:59 hhalpin: asks about further browser integration, what is the critical path for browser integration ? 15:15:42 Dick: browser integration was a goal of vNext 15:16:12 whereas in OpenID connect, there are API calls, so it is near on impossible to having client based identity support 15:16:20 q? 15:16:27 ack hhalpin 15:16:38 there is still a role for the browser 15:16:57 i.e. what identity are you using at the moment, which sites are you logged in to? 15:17:26 so there are some real problems that need solving in OpenID Connect world 15:17:51 in the browser, but unlike vNext, there is no intention to hold the identity in the browser 15:17:55 http://www.links.org/?p=187 15:18:03 ack manu_ 15:18:03 manu_, you wanted to ask about crypto-backed identity 15:19:13 melvster has joined #swxg 15:19:14 manu_: is confused about what work is being integrated in OpenID Connect? Is there going to be support for digital signatures, or more cryptostuff 15:19:30 s/crypotostuff/ssl for interactions/ 15:19:38 there is going to be ssl support 15:19:46 +??P5 15:19:56 no one has brought use cases for digital signatures 15:20:03 zakim, ??P5 is me 15:20:03 +melvster; got it 15:20:58 the OpenID connect work in collaboration with browser vendors will help make progress towards having broswers which are more aware of identity 15:21:35 manu_: asks if use-cases were presented to the OpenID connect group re: digital signatures 15:21:58 WebID seems to be a bit far off from openid's current intentions 15:22:05 if you want openid connect to do stuff, show up 15:22:05 :) 15:22:12 q+ 15:22:12 q? 15:22:16 ack danbri 15:22:16 danbri, you wanted to ask what you say when people ask if they're 2 technologies in competition 15:22:18 q- 15:22:55 danbri: can you help us talk about OpenID, is it a technology, is a community, it is expertise ? 15:23:01 maybe to be blunt, do we see OpenID Connect subsuming OpenID? 15:23:32 openid is all of the above? 15:23:47 q+ 15:24:01 do you see OpenID becoming an umbrella for similar technologies in this space 15:24:18 ack bblfish 15:24:41 answer: well if you should up, then the openid may be interested in what you have to say ? 15:24:53 bblfish: asks how WebID and OpenID are different ? 15:25:38 the client side certificates UI needs improving? 15:26:10 bblfish: WebID is doing something similar to OpenID, both are looking at giving universal identity 15:26:44 bblfish: asks why they aren't merging, and why isn't there enough information sharing 15:26:51 between to the two communities 15:28:02 The initial Yadis was based on FOAF 15:28:35 mmm, openid chap thinks that WebID is just an Identity provider, whereas the interesting part of OpenID is the extensions 15:28:57 mischat: sorry, who's speaking? 15:29:09 thanks 15:29:20 ack hhalpin 15:29:58 hhalpin: so OpenID vNext is being subsumed by OpenID Connect, are there plans to merge these? 15:30:15 hhalpin: are there parts of OpenID Connect that are up in the air ? 15:30:30 signing requests and responses is still up in the air 15:30:35 signing requests and responces are up in the air 15:31:18 hhalpin: is openid connect going to suffice the needs of ecommerce and the gov initiatives 15:31:19 ? 15:31:36 answer: no these aren't out main focus 15:32:02 We play to join OpenID Connect group to drive the ecommerce use cases 15:32:17 it would be a shame to ignore those use cases when designing OpenID Connect. 15:32:27 s/We play/We plan/ 15:33:05 (was that dick speaking, the 'should'?) 15:33:13 david says that identity work in the browser is somethign which the W3C "should" 15:33:39 Perhaps we can liason between WebID community and OpenID Connect community to ensure good cross-pollination of ideas. 15:34:05 all of this work in the identity in the browser stuff mozilla 15:34:54 question on relation to xauth/oauth? 15:34:57 q+ to state that we'll join OpenID Connect 15:35:04 ack manu_ 15:35:04 manu_, you wanted to state that we'll join OpenID Connect 15:35:12 FabGandon has joined #swxg 15:35:35 manu: stated that they will join the openid connect group 15:35:57 15th 15:36:05 ? 15:36:06 yup 15:36:10 September! :) 15:36:11 doh 15:36:27 Telecon: 15th of Sept with Aza "identity in the browser" 15:36:28 and their privacy icons stuff too 15:37:25 8am 15:37:29 3:00 PM 15:37:54 http://permatime.com/UTC/2010-09-01/15:00 15:38:27 was the question on oauth/xauth 15:38:28 zakim, unmute me 15:38:28 Thomas should no longer be muted 15:38:32 -Dick 15:38:34 Thanks to both Dick Hardt and David Recordon for speaking with us... 15:38:54 - +1.503.341.aacc 15:39:10 (re helping organize - yes, but only after mid-oct) 15:40:20 -dom 15:40:38 thanks for the invite to listen in to SWXG and Harry :) - appreciate it, will follow up via e-mail, etc. 15:40:39 http://www.w3.org/2010/08/25-swxg-minutes.html 15:40:47 Approve minutes? 15:40:52 +1 15:40:54 +1 15:40:57 +1 (not that it counts :)) 15:40:58 (not that I was there...) 15:41:24 http://www.w3.org/2010/08/25-swxg-minutes.html are approved. 15:41:26 -manu_ 15:41:34 bye 15:41:45 manu_ has left #swxg 15:42:30 IIW East re DC 15:42:42 paul: meeting in washington next week to talk about Infocard people 15:42:43 infocard foundation will be there. 15:43:39 paul: the browser should be in full control of the release of attributes 15:44:45 paul: to talk about the infocard/identity work? 15:44:59 hhalpin: that may help us decide what to ask the browser vendors 15:45:07 zakim, unmute mischa 15:45:07 mischa should no longer be muted 15:45:08 (are Mozilla 'vendors'?) 15:45:10 the WebID community should put together something we would like from the Browser vendors too 15:45:27 agenda for next will be Paul of infocards/higgins 15:45:38 ACTION: hhalpin to ask sandro to attend IIW East 15:45:38 Created ACTION-171 - Ask sandro to attend IIW East [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-09-08]. 15:46:23 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport#Privacy_and_Privacy_Standards 15:47:40 mischat: we should get together on IRC 15:47:44 on skype I mean 15:47:49 either or henry 15:48:01 only 1 i know of :) 15:48:13 (I have been very busy last week on confs to W3C and Galway conf) 15:48:32 ACTION: DKA to shorten too long use-cases and see if he can reference in SWAT test cases. 15:48:32 Created ACTION-172 - Shorten too long use-cases and see if he can reference in SWAT test cases. [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2010-09-08]. 15:48:39 yeah i have notice henry :) we can pick a time tomorrow perhaps ? to decide what to do bblfish ? 15:48:58 tomorrow is good 15:49:19 ACTION: mischa to diaspora to talk about being included in final report (interoperable code-basess agreed to SWAT tests?). 15:49:19 Created ACTION-173 - Diaspora to talk about being included in final report (interoperable code-basess agreed to SWAT tests?). [on Mischa Tuffield - due 2010-09-08]. 15:49:36 ACTION: [CONTINUES] bblfish and mischa to write a new introductory paragraph with definition of social web and case for open-source/business use of standards. 15:49:36 Sorry, couldn't find user - [CONTINUES] 15:49:41 Zakim, unmute me 15:49:41 MacTed should no longer be muted 15:50:01 ACTION [CONTINUES]: Add to intro a "user story" of why current approaches don't work. 15:50:01 Sorry, couldn't find user - [CONTINUES] 15:50:03 bblfish: tomorrow grab me on skype, and we can discuss 15:50:23 ACTION: [DONE] hhalpin to set up HTML5/Interaction domain telecon before Sept. 15:50:23 Sorry, couldn't find user - [DONE] 15:50:36 ACTION: [CLOSE] bblfish (and paul maybe?) flesh out and draft identity section. 15:50:36 Sorry, couldn't find user - [CLOSE] 15:50:51 ACTION [DONE]: bblfish (and paul maybe?) flesh out and draft identity section. 15:50:51 Sorry, couldn't find user - [DONE] 15:52:15 bblfish: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport#Profile_Standards 15:52:20 q 15:52:22 ACTION: alexpassant to flesh out of profile section 15:52:22 q+ 15:52:22 Created ACTION-174 - Flesh out of profile section [on Alexandre Passant - due 2010-09-08]. 15:52:25 ack tlr 15:52:32 there's a subset of poco that's v close to vcard 15:52:42 but the schema also has all opensocial attribs 15:52:54 Could we get a convergence story that includes FOAF? 15:52:59 http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-contacts-api-20100121/ 15:53:23 i'll ping 15:53:26 Zakim, mute me 15:53:26 MacTed should now be muted 15:53:30 happy to track consensus in the foaf schema 15:53:46 ACTION [CONTINUES]: hhalpin and melvster to review activity standards 15:53:46 Sorry, couldn't find user - [CONTINUES] 15:54:07 I am happy to take this section 15:54:12 "Decentralised Social Networking Projects " 15:54:18 ACTION: [DONE] venezia to do mobile paragraph 15:54:18 Sorry, couldn't find user - [DONE] 15:54:26 ACTION [DONE]: venezia to do mobile paragraph 15:54:26 Sorry, couldn't find user - [DONE] 15:54:28 am also "Content Standards" 15:55:07 ACTION: mischa to give a good draft of content section 15:55:07 Created ACTION-175 - Give a good draft of content section [on Mischa Tuffield - due 2010-09-08]. 15:55:40 ACTION: hhalpin to work on strategy document 15:55:40 Created ACTION-176 - Work on strategy document [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-09-08]. 15:56:15 Meeting Adjourned 15:56:18 -bblfish 15:56:21 bye 15:57:06 WebGL 15:57:09 FabGandon has joined #swxg 15:57:20 Zakim, meeting adjourned 15:57:20 I don't understand 'meeting adjourned', hhalpin 15:57:25 trackbot, meeting adjourned 15:57:25 Sorry, hhalpin, I don't understand 'trackbot, meeting adjourned'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help 15:57:25 -danbri 15:57:34 -mischa 15:57:35 trackbot, end meeting 15:57:35 Zakim, list attendees 15:57:35 As of this point the attendees have been hhalpin, renato, mischa, Thomas, danbri, +1.415.846.aaaa, +1.510.931.aabb, +1.503.341.aacc, bblfish, MacTed, dom, +1.617.513.aadd, Dick, 15:57:36 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 15:57:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/01-swxg-minutes.html trackbot 15:57:37