15:57:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
15:57:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/24-rdb2rdf-irc
15:57:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:57:47 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
15:57:49 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
15:57:49 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
15:57:50 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:57:50 <trackbot> Date: 24 August 2010
15:58:09 <mhausenblas> Chair: Michael
15:58:25 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Aug/0029.html
15:59:07 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:00:13 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
16:00:21 <Zakim> + +3539149aaaa
16:00:33 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaaa is me
16:00:33 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
16:00:41 <boris> boris has joined #RDB2RDF
16:00:41 <mhausenblas> Zakim, nunolopes is with me
16:00:41 <Zakim> +nunolopes; got it
16:00:52 <mhausenblas> Zakim, boris is with me
16:00:52 <Zakim> +boris; got it
16:01:22 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:01:57 <mhausenblas> Zakim, cygri is with me
16:01:57 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
16:02:20 <Zakim> +Souri
16:02:47 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Harry
16:02:55 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Li_Ma
16:03:01 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:03:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/24-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:03:09 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make the logs public, please
16:03:09 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make the logs public', mhausenblas.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:03:15 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make the logs public
16:03:15 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make the logs public', mhausenblas.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:03:52 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make record public
16:03:53 <Angela> Angela has joined #RDB2RDF
16:04:18 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
16:04:18 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
16:04:20 <Zakim> +EricP
16:04:32 <ericP> apologies, cornered in the lunchline
16:05:03 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's around?
16:05:03 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, mhausenblas.
16:05:08 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:05:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, Souri, EricP
16:05:09 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, nunolopes, boris, cygri
16:05:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see Angela, cygri, boris, Souri, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, mhausenblas, nunolopes, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, ericP, trackbot
16:05:37 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Ashok
16:07:00 <mhausenblas> whatz the problem, juansequeda? 
16:07:03 <ericP> juansequeda, via voip?
16:07:13 <juansequeda> says passcode not valid
16:07:29 <iv_an_ru> Divan, following Turkey, instead of a chair
16:07:53 <mhausenblas> hehe, iv_an_ru 
16:07:58 <mhausenblas> juansequeda try +1-617-761-6200
16:08:04 <juansequeda> I am
16:08:29 <juansequeda> last week I had the same problem and I spoke with the operator and that is how I got in. but the operator isn't picking up
16:08:53 <ericP> juansequeda, what's your no?
16:08:58 <ericP> maybe i can conference you
16:09:01 <juansequeda> 512-471-9541
16:09:07 <ericP> (given 20 or so tries)
16:10:20 <mhausenblas> Angela, do you plan to dial in?
16:10:25 <ericP> Zakim, ericP has ericP, juansequeda, dan
16:10:25 <Zakim> +ericP, juansequeda, dan; got it
16:10:28 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:10:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, Souri, EricP
16:10:29 <Zakim> EricP has ericP, juansequeda, dan
16:10:31 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, nunolopes, boris, cygri
16:10:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see Angela, cygri, boris, Souri, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, mhausenblas, nunolopes, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, ericP, trackbot
16:10:51 <Angela> no i can not
16:11:09 <Angela> but I am trying to participate in IRC
16:11:27 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
16:11:36 <Angela> I don't have a phone...and I can not connect through skype
16:11:53 <mhausenblas> too bad Angela, sorry 
16:12:03 <ericP> Angela, got a skype-in no?
16:12:12 <Angela> no
16:12:17 <Angela> anyway do not worry
16:12:21 <mhausenblas> thanks
16:12:26 <mhausenblas> try to follow on IRC
16:12:37 <ericP> the scribe will try to be expository
16:12:39 <mhausenblas> should be no prob with such an excellent scribe ;)
16:12:47 <Angela> :)
16:12:53 <ericP> topic: admin
16:13:09 <ericP> PROPOSED accept minutes of 17 Aug 2010
16:13:16 <juansequeda> +1
16:13:21 <ericP> APPROVED
16:13:52 <ericP> topic: conclude SQL-based comments with cygri
16:14:02 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:14:10 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:14:10 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:14:12 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:14:12 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:14:24 <mhausenblas> Agenda is here: +1-617-761-6200
16:14:29 <mhausenblas> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Aug/0029.html
16:14:48 <ericP> topic: RDB2RDF telecon -- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Aug/0029
16:15:00 <mhausenblas> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Aug/0004.html
16:15:03 <ericP> ericP has changed the topic to: RDB2RDF telecon -- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Aug/0029
16:15:07 <ericP> topic: conclude SQL-based comments with cygri
16:15:22 <ericP> cygri: without knowing what happened last meeting..
16:15:27 <ericP> ... i expected:
16:15:31 <ericP> ... .. uri templates
16:15:46 <ericP> ... .. multiple maps for a single class
16:16:28 <ericP> ... .. refer to table instead of query or view (where you don't need a query-created view)
16:17:23 <ericP> ... .. allow queries instead of column names (e.g. in view def, you want only tuples with a given value for an attribute)
16:17:44 <ericP> Souri: some discussion based upon cygri's comments
16:18:00 <ericP> ... 3.1, makes sense, but URI templates isn't a standard yet
16:18:29 <ericP> mhausenblas: if we use it, it will likely become an RFC
16:19:11 <ericP> cygri: trivial matter, /foo/{attribute}/bar (in d2r, we used "@@"s)
16:19:31 <ericP> Souri: the pattern should translate to a SQL expression
16:19:57 <ericP> cygri: just a concatonation?
16:21:53 <ericP> Souri: we should consider automatic derivation of the inverse expression
16:22:02 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
16:22:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/24-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:22:29 <ericP> Souri, per comment 3.2
16:23:03 <ericP> Souri: per comment 3.2, we're talking about a viewmaps V1, V2, and i want them to be in the same class
16:23:30 <ericP> ... that's an important requirement. we could define a superclass of C1 C2
16:23:34 <mhausenblas> Michael: note re URI templates - let's use http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gregorio-uritemplate as the URI (will always point to the latest version)
16:24:08 <ericP> cygri: i think we're coflating two things:
16:24:56 <ericP> ... .. i want to map staff and student to foaf:Person, i don't want to have to create new OWL classes for my:Staff and my:Person
16:26:49 <ericP> Souri: it's like you want to hide the implied class from the generated schema
16:27:13 <ericP> ... we could have instead compound class maps
16:28:15 <ericP> cygri: that seems more complicated than just allowing one to map staff and student to foaf:Person
16:28:57 <ericP> ericP: i think is a usability trade-off: simplicity of model vs. simplicty of user interface
16:29:06 <ericP> mhausenblas: how much has this come up?
16:29:24 <ericP> cygri: if you're mapping 50 tables, i expect it to come up at least once
16:29:59 <ericP> Souri: for performance reasons, i want to be able to specify C1 (my:staff)
16:30:11 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:30:11 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:30:17 <ericP> cygri: what's executed in the database will be the same
16:30:52 <ericP> Souri: for foaf:Person, yes, but my requirement is to be able to restrict to myfoaf:StaffPerson
16:31:25 <ericP> cygri: but that's a modeling issue. the model must be aware when they map lots of stuff to a common base class
16:32:29 <ericP> ... frequently, i don't want to expose the schema of the database
16:33:06 <ericP> q+ to paint a query in which the common base class doesn't cost anything
16:33:25 <mhausenblas> q+ to talk about test cases
16:34:03 <ericP> Souri: if i define V1 and V2, there is a utility to have them distinguishable
16:34:19 <MacTed> q+ to suggest both plans are fine as options, but need clear declaration of what the trade-offs are
16:34:25 <mhausenblas> ack ericP 
16:34:25 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to paint a query in which the common base class doesn't cost anything
16:34:45 <ericP> juansequeda: from DI of the 90s (Simms), each table becomes a class
16:36:10 <Souri> q+
16:37:11 <mhausenblas> ack me
16:37:11 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to talk about test cases
16:37:15 <Souri> what if the two "sub" classes have shared attributes?
16:37:33 <mhausenblas> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Aug/0034.html
16:38:00 <Souri> what I am saying I guess translates to allowing "compound" classes
16:38:16 <ericP> Souri, i think in any scenario you come up with, there will be some distinguishing characteristic in a realistic query
16:38:33 <cygri> +1 ericP
16:38:53 <ericP> mhausenblas: once we have a concrete spec, we can see how hard is the work implied by these trade-offs
16:38:55 <mhausenblas> q?
16:38:59 <mhausenblas> ack MacTed 
16:38:59 <Zakim> MacTed, you wanted to suggest both plans are fine as options, but need clear declaration of what the trade-offs are
16:39:00 <Souri> but, eric, in my query I may not be interested in the distinguishing characterstics
16:39:13 <ericP> ... so we shoudl work on queries, tables, expected results
16:39:34 <ericP> MacTed: the trade-off is a cost-benifit trade-off
16:39:39 <mhausenblas> Michael: we should start to collect TC (input RDB/output RDF) ASAP
16:39:59 <ericP> ... do we know all the characteristics when we do the mapping?
16:40:11 <mhausenblas> q?
16:40:16 <mhausenblas> ack Souri 
16:40:42 <ericP> ... either demanding C1 and C2, or only C imposes on the user
16:41:39 <ericP> Souri: it seems conceptually simpler to define unions on class maps
16:41:47 <ericP> cygri: i think this compounds viewmaps
16:42:10 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
16:42:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/24-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:42:23 <ericP> ... saying this class can be populated from V1 and v2 is no simpler than saying that T1 and T2 are both Cs
16:42:38 <ericP> ... it's a question of how to expose on the surface
16:43:38 <ericP> ... { T1 a C . T2 a C . } is simpler and i don't think that demanding C1 and C2 is justified
16:44:33 <ericP> Souri: if V1 is an unexposed classmap, i can update that later
16:45:10 <ericP> cygri: but in { T1 a C . T2 a C . }, i can just s/T1 a C/T1 a C1/ when i discover i want to distinguish them
16:45:37 <ericP> ... unexposed classmaps would imply a extra feature in the language
16:46:03 <ericP> ... there are situations where a T doesn't map to any C
16:46:39 <ericP> ... we discovered this during d2r use, so we removed the requirement that a "classmap" imply a class
16:46:46 <ericP> ... so it really shouldn't be called a classmap
16:46:54 <ericP> +1 to cygri
16:47:31 <ericP> cygri: you have a view, and each row maps to triples makes more sense than structuring things around classes
16:48:05 <juansequeda> cygri: can you remind me while people do not want to create a class?
16:48:16 <ericP> ACTION: Souri to summarize the unionable classmap discussion in email
16:48:16 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Souri
16:48:23 <cygri> juansequeda: creating owl:sameAs triples from a DB
16:48:50 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:48:50 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:49:06 <ericP> Souri: per comment 3.3, agreed
16:49:32 <ericP> cygri: if you can use URItemplates, then this [the feature in comment 3.3] becomes possible
16:49:56 <ericP> Souri: per comment 3.4 (constant value for a property)...
16:50:09 <juansequeda> cygri: so if I have in one source that #juan rdf:type foaf:person and if my info is in a database, all you would want is to say #student123 owl:sameas #juan and not have that #student123 rdf:type ex:Person or even #student123 rdf:type foaf:person ?
16:50:35 <ericP> ... it makes sense, but how do we expose it in RDFS? owl:onProperty , owl:hasValue?
16:52:01 <ericP> cygri: example: E t -> { x :worksFor :Acme }
16:52:35 <ericP> topic: SQL injection
16:52:47 <mhausenblas> q?
16:52:52 <Souri> q?
16:52:59 <ericP> cygri: confused by this in the previous minutes
16:53:29 <ericP> Souri: came up because, a referential constraint, it's always equality
16:53:49 <ericP> ... i simplified and said *all* we need is the equijoin condition
16:55:03 <ericP> ... if the mapping contains ("a.b=c.d"), you could be injecting some malicious code
16:55:18 <ericP> ... but we can address that by parsing the constraints
16:55:48 <ericP> ericP thinks this is a non-issue; that we face homogenous injection vulnerability throughout r2ml
16:56:35 <ericP> Topic: Revised proposal from Souri
16:56:44 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Example_of_SQL-based_RDB2RDF_Mapping:_Revision_1
16:56:57 <Souri> XML Schema Revision 1: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/An_XML_Schema_for_SQL-based_RDB2RDF_Mapping_%28Revision_1%29
16:57:16 <ericP> cygri: in d2rq, you right down the join condition, but we need to know the direction of the foreign key constraint
16:57:21 <ericP> Souri: that has to be there
16:57:32 <Souri> example revision 1: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Example_of_SQL-based_RDB2RDF_Mapping:_Revision_1
16:58:07 <ericP> ... in the example, we have child and parent, so we can derive the alias for substitution
16:59:19 <Souri> <EquiJoinCondition>       <ExpressionPair FirstExpression="<child>.deptno" SecondExpression="<parent>.deptno" />      </EquiJoinCondition>
16:59:36 <ericP> mhausenblas: postponing remaining topics for next meeting
16:59:44 <ericP> topic: test cases
16:59:54 <ericP> mhausenblas: harry sent mail about test cases
17:00:16 <ericP> ... we need someone to collect, document and package test cases
17:00:48 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:00:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/24-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:00:50 <ericP> ... (i've done it in two previous WGs; essential work)
17:00:56 <ericP> ADJOURNED
17:01:01 <ericP> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:01:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/24-rdb2rdf-minutes.html ericP
17:01:11 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, list attendees
17:01:11 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendees', mhausenblas.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:01:28 <mhausenblas> Zakim, list attendees
17:01:28 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +3539149aaaa, mhausenblas, nunolopes, boris, cygri, Souri, ericP, juansequeda, dan, MacTed
17:01:41 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
17:01:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, Souri, EricP, MacTed (muted)
17:01:42 <Zakim> EricP has ericP, juansequeda, dan
17:01:44 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, nunolopes, boris, cygri
17:01:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see Angela, cygri, boris, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, ericP, trackbot
17:01:52 <Zakim> -Souri
17:02:21 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, list attendees
17:02:21 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendees', mhausenblas.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:02:25 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:02:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/24-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:03:51 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
17:03:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, EricP, MacTed (muted)
17:03:52 <Zakim> EricP has ericP, juansequeda, dan
17:03:53 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, nunolopes, boris, cygri
17:03:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see cygri, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru, ericP, trackbot
17:04:02 <mhausenblas> ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
17:04:08 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:04:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/24-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:04:40 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/directGraph/#alg
17:06:21 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:06:32 <juansequeda> ericP: once you got this down, we need to start emailing about putting both our stuff together
17:06:40 <ericP> agreed
17:08:09 <juansequeda> I have some stuff here: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Default_Mapping
17:08:28 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/directGraph/#emp-addr
17:22:35 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
17:46:13 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
18:08:43 <ericP> http://swobjects.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/swobjects/branches/sparql11/tests/healthCare/lists-notBound/db-hl7.rq?revision=1184&view=markup
18:11:46 <ericP> http://swobjects.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/swobjects/branches/sparql11/tests/test_QueryMap.cpp?revision=1211&view=markup#l479
18:12:35 <ericP> http://swobjects.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/swobjects/branches/sparql11/tests/healthCare/lists-notBound/db.rq
18:12:48 <ericP> http://swobjects.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/swobjects/branches/sparql11/tests/healthCare/lists-notBound/hl7.rq
18:13:11 <ericP> http://swobjects.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/swobjects/branches/sparql11/tests/healthCare/lists-notBound/db.sql
18:33:25 <Zakim> -EricP
18:33:26 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
18:33:26 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has ended
18:33:28 <Zakim> Attendees were +3539149aaaa, mhausenblas, nunolopes, boris, cygri, Souri, ericP, juansequeda, dan, MacTed
18:36:51 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
19:27:16 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdb2rdf
20:00:58 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
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