Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference -- 18 Aug 2010

<trackbot> Date: 18 August 2010

<mischat> hello

<MacTed> hi, mischa

<bblfish> hi

yes

<hhalpin> trackbot,start meeting

<MacTed> hhalpin - already started...

<bblfish> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/StateOfSocialWeb#Authentication:_from_Passwords_to_WebIds

<bblfish> *waves back*

<mischat> excellent

<mischat> bblfish, it should probably go in here http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport#Identity_Standards

<mischat> :)

<mischat> nope

i can scribe

<mischat> yay

<bblfish> ah ok. Let me see

<hhalpin> scribe: melvster

hhalpin: approve minutes
... any obections?

<mischat> i can update on what I have been up to when ready

<hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2010/08/11-swxg-minutes.html

<hhalpin> APPROVED: http://www.w3.org/2010/08/11-swxg-minutes.html as minutes

mishca: hello
... I put stubs in the technology areas, and think ive listed all the techs we want to talk about

<mischat> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport#Social_Web_Technologies_and_Standards

mishca: some points im not sure about
... google connect

google friend connect

<bblfish> if you refresh I just popped in the section I wrote up on the other page

google friend connect i think has been discontinued

scribe: maybe use facebook connect

<hhalpin> http://openidconnect.com/

scribe: xmpp has been dropped in a few times, and was headed under activity streams, but probably lies all over the place, not sure how to organize it
... gives you uri, authn, ability to send xml ... not quite sure where it leave

hhalpin: lives everywhere just like HTTP
... in general there's some movement, PuSH / Atom and XMPP are two stacks

mischat: ill try and find a place for it
... content standards (tags, reviewing, ratings, like, ogp) and activity standards ... not too sure of the difference
... activity standards, Ostatus, atom, xmpp
... not sure tagging or liking something is any different from activity streams ... not sure how people feel about it

hhalpin: my feeling is that you're right

mischat: maybe use sharing standards

hhalpin: seems a logical separation between profile data, and activity data, e.g. FOAF has profile fields, but maybe not tagging

mischat: there's a whole profile section
... licensing ... i think we should cover CC stuff
... havent discussed data commons

hhalpin: happy to mention items that we havent convered in a telecon

mischat: 2 other subsections ... accessiblity & i18n

hhalpin: accessibility people have a wiki

mischat: i18n ... ask richard aschieda ishida ... thats the name thing
... social technologies and standards ... added in a decentralized social networks list

hhalpin: we have a set of standards, then we have at least 3 interoperable impl.
... we should keep that list in, important for people to know what's going on
... try and list the standards
... ill add personal data spaces

macted: i can add to that section

mischat: can i have some comments on the report as a whole
... dont describe what the social web is
... need a definition?

hhalpin: we do go into this, there's SNS which we call social platforms, but we dont want to limit it to a site, because standards are compatible with browsers, with operating systems, foaf etc.

macted: we did some snippets in the overview

mischat: seemed that we were describing the open social project
... for me it feels like it's talking about the open social API, allowing you to stick an API around a silo, not pitching it at a grand enough vision, we should be talking about data ownership

<bblfish> agree

macted: does kind of say, everyone get your own server out, which assumes everyone wants to be a programmer

mischat: it is possible using current technology, to be part of a distributed social web, e.g. gnu social, onesocialweb ... not sure we go far enough into it

<mischat> exactly

bblfish: important issue, i think thats what the social web is. it's not that everyone has to have their own server, but it should be possible

hhalpin: we shouldnt say that people must have their own server, but that people could, but the most feasible way to achieve this is through standards
... assuming other platforms take up these standards
... need to operate on a level of abstraction that allows both possibilities

mischat: not sure that's clear from the report
... seems to suggest you cant have social functionality without going to a 3rd party

<bblfish> I agree one should have a stronger statement of social web vision

hhalpin: agree, maybe that should go towards the end

<AlexPassant> btw, I'm happy to write something about SMOB and how it uses FOAf, SIOC, etc to enable open social semweb

hhalpin: before introducing examples

+1 smob

bblfish: need to get people's attention at the beginning
... .vision that is strong

<mischat> +1 bblfish

bblfish: not just giving people a feeling we were a committee and no one dared say anything that wasnt quite the air of the moment
... risk being irrelevant

mactad: only so much you can put at the beginning

hhalpin: maybe a few sentences why standards are important, to reference how you run your own server

macted: overview has much of that stuff in it, but not the first senteneces, perhaps a narrative, joe wants to do x, and cant etc ...

hhalpin: we have this in the user stories ... issue is that it gets very long

macted: just a hook to say, joe tries being social on the web, and fails, and gets trapped

hhalpin: what i try to do is saying what sort of things these standards enabled, not saying how bad the situation is now

macted: need something more compelling

<bblfish> we have consensus: the document is huge :-)

macted: huge document, need a compelling thread that takes you through

<AlexPassant> we may introduce that use-case with some current issues (e.g. remembering X passwords, deciding on which website to post pictures / stories / ... in order to reach A or B, etc.)

mischat: would be sad if we didnt talk about a social web without centralization

bblfish: need to make it more prominent

mischat: distributed is not prominent enough

+1 mischat, bblfish ... i think it's a great angle to make the report more unique/readable

bblfish: dont bash, be positive, turn it around and say the social web can be much bigger
... everything connected in one giant network
... make everyone richer

mischat: can i take a stab at that?

hhalpin: go for it
... need a compelling user story, more compelling definition of the social web, and that you can roll your own is an important angle

macted: inclined to say, this makes it possible for new ones to start, without having to reinvent
... e.g. everyone runs email
... how many run their own server?
... open, distributed, how many people do it ... i think you'll find the same with soc net stuff

bblfish: with email you send everyone an email, with phones you call anyone, with the web you can link to anyone, but with an SNS you cant, why cant it be the same?
... when you're on one social network, you cant just link to someone else so that you just link to someone else, email is designed so everyone can have their own server

mischat: can imagine if GNU social was more mature, accounts would come with an email server, or social network server

macted: want to have control over the services

mischat: i can imagine isps doing this, and handing it out as an extra service

bblfish: people working for universities will want that profile

<danbri> just lurking today sorry, but from #social-p2p,

<danbri> <eridu> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15865/diaspora_pres.pdf

<danbri> update on diaspora's progress with ostatus

bblfish: need to say the paragraph in such a way as to make people think they can become part of a bigger thing

hhalpin: im hearing 3 different paragraphs ... need to go through the stub list
... 1. intro (inc. definition of social web + henry's ideas)
... maybe with mischa too

bblfish: may need to cut it down

<hhalpin> ACTION: bblfish and mtuffield to write a new introductory paragraph with definition of social web and case for open-source/business use of standards [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/18-swxg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-161 - And mtuffield to write a new introductory paragraph with definition of social web and case for open-source/business use of standards [on Henry Story - due 2010-08-25].

<MacTed> tthibodeau

bblfish: 2. paragraph user story saying, ' i cant connect to peoples profiles ' ... export data etc.
... aslo in the introduction

<hhalpin> ACTION: thibodeau to add to intro a "user story" of why current approaches don't work. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/18-swxg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-162 - Add to intro a "user story" of why current approaches don't work. [on Ted Thibodeau - due 2010-08-25].

bblfish: what else are we missing?
... maybe semantic microblogging
... maybe go through technology list and assign people to stubs

mischat: how about subsections, e.g. identity subsection ... what about openid connect, xauth etc.
... im happy to take some of these sections
... maybe alex could do sioc foaf vcard profile section ...

<AlexPassant> sounds good

<AlexPassant> yes, but really bad voip so rather typing, sorry

<hhalpin> ACTION: bblfish to flesh out and draft identity section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/18-swxg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-163 - Flesh out and draft identity section [on Henry Story - due 2010-08-25].

<AlexPassant> apassant on W3C

<mischat> AlexPassant: are you on the call ?

<hhalpin> ACTION: apassant to flesh out profile standards [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/18-swxg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-164 - Flesh out profile standards [on Alexandre Passant - due 2010-08-25].

<danbri> re semweb/blogs background,, http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/open_demonstrators/hp-requirements-specification.html might be useful. (and more inhttp://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/intro.html)

mischat: privacy standards?

<AlexPassant> mischat: yes, but got a really bad connection so skype is almost unaudible sorry

mischat: i can do that

hhalpin: a short paragraph for each one

140 characters max :)

<hhalpin> ACTION: mtuffield to privacy section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/18-swxg-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - mtuffield

WebAccessControl

<AlexPassant> re. privacy you can look at some references in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/msnws/papers/trustprivacy.html

<mischat> thanks Alex

hhalpin: get it drafted by end of august, internal review, then public review

probably yes

btw: http://esw.w3.org/WebAccessControl

<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin and melvster to review activity standards [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/18-swxg-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-165 - And melvster to review activity standards [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-08-25].

hhalpin: activity standards ... there's push and pull
... content and activities
... maybe streams is better than activities
... could mail oshani to add references to her work
... licensing issues\

<hhalpin> ACTION: mtuffied to ask oshani over writing up licensing issues for final report. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/18-swxg-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - mtuffied

oshani is on #dig right now ...

<hhalpin> ACTION: mtuffield to ask oshani over writing up licensing issues for final report. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/18-swxg-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - mtuffield

<mischat> s/mtuffield/mtiffiel/ == (lame name typo)

hhalpin: ill ping richard on i18n

mischat: big section on distributed projects

<AlexPassant> +1 for a list of codebases

i think it's done

in the gnu social wiki

<AlexPassant> we could check FSWS invitees for getting such a list

<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to ping richard ishida over internationalization and track down accessibility [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/08/18-swxg-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-166 - Ping richard ishida over internationalization and track down accessibility [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-08-25].

let me find a link

<AlexPassant> http://federatedsocialweb.net/wiki/FedAll2010/Invitations

one sec

arg ... it's down now ... will find the new one ..

was: http://www.gnu.org/software/social//Project_Comparison

<mischat> thanks melvster

hhalpin: talking about a lightweight process
... more agile
... not tightly scoped
... can be code driven
... evan and chris messina may be interested
... need 3 codebases for ostatus

mischat: conclusions
... need to make a decision on what these are

hhalpin: need core to be synced up
... privacy was too much to focus on, but we need to say something
... data handling workshop, privacy workshop report
... no one was talking about distributed social nets

bblfish: wasnt given time to speak, they were interested in APIs and javascript
... didnt get into the social webby part

<mischat> https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1lQvBDd0unAbV7LfxMp2XoXGm7HGPQX8cQd1cO2vz6iM&hl=en&authkey=CIzAkLEM&pli=1#

<mischat> W3C Workshop on Privacy for Advanced Web APIs

<mischat> ^%^

bblfish: as soon as you have a distributed social web started, you'll have grass roots needs for it

mischat: privacy and security are different things

<bblfish> yes, privacy =/= security

mischat: privacy has to be looked at from the core
... e.g. w3c geo api, which was a failure
... which shows everyone everything
... ietf have a geo priv working group
... if you care about privacy you have to care from the beginning

bblfish: one talk about how privacy isnt access control
... but it does pre suppose access control
... first element in the stack is access control
... we have copyright
... if an agent comes to you
... you find out who it is
... if they say they understand a language
... so ill send you the terms
... else give him the minimum

<mischat> http://www.google.com/images?as_q=forest&hl=en&biw=1041&bih=598&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_sitesearch=&safe=images&as_st=y&tbs=isch:1,iur:fc

<mischat> google images searches which can be used for commercial purposes

hhalpin: can we add that in?

<bblfish> ywa

<bblfish> yes

mischat: use case your own terms of service ... sounds like science fiction?

hhalpin: if these standards existed and were widely deployed, this would be possible ...
... privacy is how you expose your data

bblfish: idea is when you go to a website you have privacy icons in your browser

<mischat> http://www.slideshare.net/azaraskin/mozilla-privacy-icons-project

<mischat> Mozilla Privacy Icons Project ^^

mischat: images from google which have CC usage
... people have no idea what licenses are
... 'in your local web browser'

hhalpin: identity in the browser, has support
... w3c has support from browsers

bblfish: maybe the browser can have a web server
... then webid works automatically

opera unite uses a proxy

you've missed dyn dns too

skype does it all :)

560 million users too

<mischat> SKY-pe ;)

here you go: http://gitorious.org/social/pages/ProjectComparison

<mischat> saw that in the other room

<mischat> :)

harry take a look at that link

<bblfish> thants'a a lot of work on teh plate

<mischat> you should do my scribing

<bblfish> yes, will be going to blogtalk

<bblfish> should be good

<MacTed> grrr... ProjectComparison should be a table... hateful presentation

yes ill send it to you

<bblfish> yes and which servers were using them

one sec

here you go: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AqtcXb4fZGyCdEtNSVJ0LXdvT3dBTHllOTZEbmZFaFE&hl=en#gid=0

<mischat> thanks

<mischat> nice one melvster

i use semantic microbloggin on a daily basis

it's like a twitter / identica client

but you can also subscribe to other semantic microblogs

<mischat> will integrated your table into the report

and pings LOD / Sindice

<AlexPassant> smob still running, I can write about it (how we're using FOAF, SIOC for interop). etc.

it works really well

<AlexPassant> will wirte a paragrph on it

<AlexPassant> that's about distributed architecture

AlexPassant - you might also want to look at the microblog tab in tabulator

<AlexPassant> ok, perfect

<AlexPassant> melvster: ah thanks for the pointer

<hhalpin> trackbot, end meeting

- DRAFT -

Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference

18 Aug 2010

Attendees

Contents

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output