IRC log of aria on 2010-08-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:01:12 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria
19:01:12 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/17-aria-irc
19:01:21 [janina]
zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(ARIA
19:01:21 [Zakim]
ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(Aria)3:00PM already started
19:01:28 [Stevef]
Stevef has joined #aria
19:01:32 [janina]
zakim, call janina
19:01:32 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
19:01:34 [Zakim]
+Janina
19:05:40 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
19:06:37 [Stevef]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/altspecification
19:10:14 [janina]
scribe: janina
19:10:48 [janina]
sf: We need change proposal review by Rich and Cynthia, then
19:11:02 [janina]
sf: there are a few sections that need completion following a discussion among us.
19:12:32 [janina]
sf: Let's start with updated spec doc -- Made mapping changes from notes and memory -- Are they OK?
19:13:10 [janina]
sf: Tried to include everything that had been cited as ommited.
19:13:19 [janina]
cs: What about merging the tables?
19:13:43 [janina]
sf: First table supposed to semantics not overwritable
19:14:36 [Zakim]
+Rich
19:14:57 [richardschwerdtfe]
richardschwerdtfe has joined #aria
19:15:55 [janina]
cs: Seems if we had one big table, it would meet Maciej's complaint that he couldn't find something.
19:16:32 [Stevef]
http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/aria-html5-proposal.html
19:16:52 [Stevef]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5
19:17:26 [cyns]
cyns has joined #aria
19:18:48 [janina]
sf: looking at <aname= -- without an href -- why a restriction?
19:19:11 [janina]
sf: Also added caption. Doesn't seem it should be restricted
19:19:46 [janina]
cs: Text from caption might go into the name, and we should have ARIA on it because someone could make it clickable.
19:20:17 [janina]
sf: put norole for area because it's not rendered
19:20:24 [janina]
cs: area without rhref valid?
19:20:25 [janina]
sf: no
19:20:35 [janina]
cs: what if tabindex?
19:20:37 [janina]
sf: don't know
19:21:01 [janina]
cs: We should treat like span anything without a reason why it shouldn't be overwritten
19:21:26 [janina]
rs: Chaas wants to map area on top of canvas, so why not treat like a div?
19:21:43 [janina]
rs: Is it overwritable?
19:21:49 [Stevef]
If the area element has no href attribute, then the area represented by the element cannot be selected, and the alt attribute must be omitted.
19:21:56 [janina]
sf: No, because not rendered and has no href
19:22:19 [janina]
cs: So how is an area without href conformant?
19:22:34 [janina]
cs: Can live with either way.
19:22:52 [janina]
cs: Prefer default to everything allowed.
19:22:54 [janina]
rs: Agree
19:23:08 [janina]
rs: If applied to canvas, will need aria role
19:23:25 [janina]
sf: OK.
19:23:46 [janina]
sf: Put in "elements without restrictions?"
19:23:51 [janina]
cs: yes
19:23:52 [janina]
rs: yes
19:24:16 [janina]
sf: So do we agree to a single table?
19:24:22 [janina]
cs: Yes, will be easier to read.
19:25:17 [janina]
rs: Yes, as long as it's clear what applies where.
19:26:12 [janina]
sf: Looking now at hgroup ...
19:27:04 [janina]
sf: Overides? Which?
19:27:10 [janina]
cs: Anything. It's a span
19:27:19 [janina]
cs: My default answer, I suspect.
19:27:31 [janina]
sf: But then we need to say why.
19:27:46 [janina]
cs: Unless there's a good reason to limit, don't limit.
19:28:12 [janina]
sf: th element, no column or row header
19:29:19 [janina]
sf: Is it inconsistent with our table guidance?
19:29:29 [janina]
cs: But people repurpose them.
19:29:41 [janina]
sf: difference between changed and additional semantics.
19:29:53 [janina]
sf: This is a clearly defined a11y element to provide info about data tables
19:30:06 [janina]
cs: existed before html had a11y ...
19:30:25 [janina]
sf: But when it's overwritten then you no longer provide a11y info about the table
19:30:47 [janina]
cs: But then what do you do when someone puts a onclick on th--which is common, to sort for instance
19:31:39 [janina]
cs: I could wish aria were additive and not substitutional ...
19:33:07 [janina]
sf: Concerned we shouldn't allow overwrite to turn th into a button, for instance
19:33:17 [janina]
cs: but that's what people do
19:35:09 [janina]
sf: OK, will go with the group consensus, but I can't defend it.
19:38:43 [janina]
sf: So, what can they be overwritten with?
19:38:57 [janina]
rs: We don't prohibit now, right?
19:40:42 [janina]
[Steve not happy with this ...]
19:40:56 [janina]
sf: Most of this has been stable for months ... but now we're saying something different
19:41:09 [janina]
rs: We said we're reviewing the whole thing
19:41:14 [janina]
sf: the parts that are changed
19:41:47 [janina]
cs: Think sf wants help on recent changes ...
19:42:35 [janina]
sf: So what role allowed on table?
19:42:41 [janina]
cs: widgets and presentation, not para
19:42:53 [janina]
sf: But that's what I have!
19:43:19 [janina]
rs: Take from the other direction, what roles should it not support?
19:45:26 [janina]
cs: We need to be consistent in our logic.
19:46:41 [janina]
sf: By that token we should treat href and all struct the same ...
19:46:43 [janina]
rs: yes
19:49:59 [janina]
cs: If we can come up with a rule for these -- It's the one-off's that will get us turned down
19:50:32 [Stevef]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5
19:53:34 [janina]
sf: So, we're talking about incorrect html use, is it better with aria addition, or not?
19:59:03 [janina]
sf: So, we're talking about incorrect html use, is it better with aria addition, or not?[group going through items]
20:02:49 [janina]
sf: People, please review the entire proposal and provide comments, changes, additions ...
20:02:55 [janina]
cs: Can I send you a word doc?
20:02:57 [janina]
sf: yes
20:03:21 [janina]
sf: We didn't finish, so will need another meeting.
20:04:23 [janina]
sf: Don't know what to do with hgroup ...
20:04:33 [janina]
cs: Heading, and refs inside presentation
20:04:39 [janina]
sf: so now this is new
20:05:16 [janina]
cs: There are two things here, logically it should function like a heading
20:05:52 [janina]
sf: But new elements have a history of being misused, so it could be argued we should support best practice.
20:06:19 [janina]
cs: If aria2 allows us to be additive, we will need to make sure we can add that to HTML5.
20:08:01 [janina]
sf: Cynthia, can provide feedback?
20:08:03 [janina]
cs: yes
20:08:09 [janina]
rs: Yes, but not tonight
20:35:53 [Zakim]
-??P1
20:38:24 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
20:41:06 [Zakim]
-Rich
20:41:07 [Zakim]
-Janina
20:41:07 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(Aria)3:00PM has ended
20:41:09 [Zakim]
Attendees were Janina, [Microsoft], Rich
20:42:18 [janina]
zakim, bye
20:42:18 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria
20:42:25 [janina]
rrsagent make log public
20:42:33 [janina]
rrsagent make minutes
20:42:38 [janina]
rrsagent, make log public
20:42:45 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:42:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/08/17-aria-minutes.html janina
20:42:55 [janina]
janina has left #aria