14:59:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swxg
14:59:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-swxg-irc
14:59:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:59:46 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #swxg
14:59:48 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7994
14:59:48 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:49 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
14:59:49 <trackbot> Date: 23 June 2010
15:00:15 <DKA> hello all
15:00:30 <tpa> tpa has joined #swxg
15:00:31 <DKA> zakim, who is here?
15:00:31 <Zakim> INC_SWXG()11:00AM has not yet started, DKA
15:00:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see tpa, Zakim, RRSAgent, hhalpin, DKA, cperey, tlr, melvster1, MacTed, tinkster1, trackbot, karl, tinkster
15:00:40 <MacTed> Zakim, this is 7994
15:00:40 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches INC_SWXG()11:00AM
15:00:46 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:00:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see DKA, +1.781.273.aaaa
15:00:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see tpa, Zakim, RRSAgent, hhalpin, DKA, cperey, tlr, melvster1, MacTed, tinkster1, trackbot, karl, tinkster
15:01:03 <MacTed> Zakim, aaaa is OpenLink_Software
15:01:03 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
15:01:03 <MacTed> zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:01:04 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:01:06 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:01:06 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:01:53 <DKA> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/weekly-agenda.html
15:01:57 <petef> petef has joined #SWXG
15:02:00 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:02:07 <hhalpin> Zakim, [IPcaller] is hhalpin
15:02:07 <Zakim> +hhalpin; got it
15:02:15 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's here?
15:02:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see DKA, MacTed (muted), hhalpin
15:02:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see petef, tpa, Zakim, RRSAgent, hhalpin, DKA, cperey, tlr, melvster1, MacTed, tinkster1, trackbot, karl, tinkster
15:02:19 <Zakim> + +1.617.879.aabb
15:02:31 <Zakim> + +1.617.848.aacc
15:02:38 <hhalpin> chair: hhalpin
15:02:50 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe?
15:02:50 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, hhalpin.
15:02:53 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe
15:02:53 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose +1.617.879.aabb
15:02:55 <paul> paul has joined #swxg
15:02:58 <cperey> zakim, aacc is me
15:02:58 <Zakim> +cperey; got it
15:03:16 <DKA> zakim, what is the code?
15:03:16 <Zakim> the conference code is 7994 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), DKA
15:03:30 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe
15:03:30 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose +1.617.879.aabb
15:03:37 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe
15:03:37 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose MacTed (muted)
15:03:49 <petef> I'm not getting the 7994 conference code recognised dialling in to the UK no.
15:03:51 <MacTed> zakim, unmute me
15:03:51 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:03:53 <petef> Any ideas?
15:04:47 <DKA> Chair: Harry
15:04:54 <hhalpin> topic: Convene SWXG WG  meeting of 2010-06-16T15:00-17:00GMT
15:04:59 <hhalpin> scribenick: MacTed
15:05:05 <hhalpin> scribe: MacTed
15:05:08 <Zakim> +??P24
15:05:13 <hhalpin> PROPOSED: to approve minutes from June 16th meeting.
15:05:14 <tpa> Zakim, ??P24 is me
15:05:14 <Zakim> +tpa; got it
15:05:17 <tpa> Zakim, mute me
15:05:17 <Zakim> tpa should now be muted
15:05:18 <DKA> +1
15:05:40 <hhalpin> RESOVLED: approved minutes from June 16th meeting
15:06:04 <MacTed> s/RESOVLED/RESOLVED/
15:06:09 <hhalpin> PROPOSED: Meet again June 30th - topic: final report
15:06:12 <hhalpin> +1
15:06:14 <DKA> +1
15:06:30 <hhalpin> RESOLVED: meeting again June 30th
15:06:34 <hhalpin> topic: final report update
15:06:37 <DKA> Also - sorry but I will have to leave the call today at 16:45 UK time - unavoidable I'm afraid.
15:06:39 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:06:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see DKA, MacTed, hhalpin, +1.617.879.aabb, cperey, tpa (muted)
15:06:45 <paul> and paul
15:07:07 <hhalpin> ACTION: DKA to write introduction.
15:07:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-144 - Write introduction. [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2010-06-30].
15:07:15 <hhalpin> Zakim, paul is aabb
15:07:15 <Zakim> sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named 'paul'
15:07:22 <MacTed> Zakim, aabb is paul
15:07:22 <Zakim> +paul; got it
15:07:36 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReportElementsDiscussion
15:07:45 <cperey> agreed! good goal!
15:07:56 <DKA> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Intro-fodder
15:08:06 <hhalpin> ACTION [CONTINUES]: DKA to write introduction
15:08:06 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - [CONTINUES]
15:08:07 <petef> Could somebody remind me what the US no. is for the conf call?
15:08:17 <hhalpin> [CONTINUES] ACTION: DKA to write introduction
15:08:19 <cperey> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Business-considerations-section-draft 
15:08:25 <DKA> zakim, what is the code?
15:08:25 <Zakim> the conference code is 7994 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), DKA
15:08:33 <petef> Ta
15:08:42 <hhalpin> [CONTINUES] ACTION: PeterF to make picture of landscape.
15:08:52 <hhalpin> Peter - do you have experience making sort of graphics?
15:08:56 <melvster1> struggling to enter the pass code
15:09:44 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:09:45 <hhalpin> [CONTINUES] ACTION: tpa to work on a summary extract of the Social Web current use-cases for part 3 on wiki pages
15:09:55 <petef> zakim, [IPcaller} is me
15:09:55 <Zakim> sorry, petef, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller}'
15:10:04 <petef> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:10:04 <Zakim> +petef; got it
15:10:06 <cperey> :-)
15:10:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:10:25 <tpa> Zakim, unmute me
15:10:25 <Zakim> tpa should no longer be muted
15:10:36 <melvster1> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:10:36 <Zakim> +melvster1; got it
15:10:55 <petef> hhalpin I'm certainly no graphic designer, but 'sort of graphics' maybe.
15:11:15 <hhalpin> wonders if we can recruit Fabien Gandon for some graphics, he did a great job with some earlier W3C work
15:11:20 <tpa> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/RequirementsAndUseCases-WorkArea
15:11:42 <MacTed> tpa: editing use cases as linked; keeping the bulk of what's there
15:12:00 <tpa> Zakim, mute me
15:12:00 <Zakim> tpa should now be muted
15:12:01 <melvster1> hi sorry mic isnt working
15:12:06 <melvster1> can type here ...
15:12:11 <petef> hhalpin I certainly wouldn't take offence if Fabien was able to help
15:12:16 <melvster1> OWF sent out a query about licences and projects ...
15:12:20 <hhalpin> [CONTINUES] ACTION: hhalpin and melvster to write State of the Social Web in 2010
15:12:22 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:12:22 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:12:38 <melvster1> work on etherpad in progress ... http://openetherpad.org/Ea4YsoZGeU
15:13:58 <hhalpin> adding link to etherpad to wiki
15:15:18 <MacTed> ???: backchannel conversation about melding some W3C and OpenWeb Foundation work
15:15:25 <hhalpin> melvster - if you can, add link to etherpad to http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReportElementsDiscussion
15:15:32 <hhalpin> s/???/DKA
15:15:32 <Zakim> + +1.510.931.aadd
15:16:33 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #swxg
15:17:42 <bblfish> hi
15:19:34 <hhalpin> They are separable
15:19:41 <cperey> yes, different groups
15:20:03 <cperey> woo hoo!!
15:21:00 <MacTed> hhalpin - yeah, this is what I meant...  I'm really not good at extracting salience (and dictation is worse)
15:21:10 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:21:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see DKA, MacTed (muted), hhalpin, paul, cperey, tpa (muted), petef, melvster1, +1.510.931.aadd
15:21:42 <hhalpin> scribenick: hhalpin
15:21:54 <hhalpin> bblfish: FOAF+SSL is a misnomer
15:22:00 <hhalpin> ... FOAF is just one nice ontology
15:22:53 <hhalpin> ... we have shown it can tie itself to OpenID and different ID systems
15:23:02 <hhalpin> what about browser support for certificates?
15:23:18 <hhalpin> bblfish: Apple your not allowed to tell
15:23:23 <MacTed> iOS4 is fully released now; we can report whether something works or not
15:23:26 <hhalpin> ... not sure re mobile phones
15:23:44 <hhalpin> ... bug report on chrome and bug report on firefox to fix certificate management
15:24:11 <hhalpin> ... they should be able to change certificate and connection
15:24:46 <hhalpin> paul: lot of work to do to make user experience on login 
15:25:01 <hhalpin> ... even if you stay in domain of browsers
15:25:14 <hhalpin> ... people don't want certificate management, password selection, infocard selection at once
15:25:23 <hhalpin> ... each of these technologies have different user experience
15:25:31 <hhalpin> ... when I look at this way
15:25:41 <hhalpin> ... one wants a standard multi-protocol website discovery document
15:26:07 <hhalpin> ... with a significant work in Kantara
15:26:08 <DKA> This discussion, to me, reinforces the idea that we need to recommend 2 separate efforts / WGs: (1) Social Web Data Model and (2) Social Web Identity
15:26:27 <hhalpin> ... enhancing discovery so a human with a browser can have a significant user experience
15:27:02 <hhalpin> ... in kantara group, we have focussed on this user-experience
15:27:26 <hhalpin> bblfish: I think we are agreeing
15:27:30 <hhalpin> paul: absolute agreement
15:27:50 <hhalpin> ... I believe there will be multi-protocol identification
15:28:05 <hhalpin> bblfish: there is a bug in SSL protocol, not sure when your certificate is being sent
15:28:07 <mischat> mischat has joined #swxg
15:28:10 <hhalpin> ... a real bug that needs to be fixed
15:28:18 <hhalpin> ... that can be tied into user experience
15:30:56 <hhalpin> DKA: lets go further than co-ordination group
15:31:08 <hhalpin> ... there isn't a mechanism for OWF
15:31:14 <hhalpin> ... other than a license
15:31:18 <bblfish> the bug report for chromium http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=29784
15:31:49 <hhalpin> ... hammer out a liason agreement with OWF to participate in joint effort with a chartered W3C WG 
15:32:00 <hhalpin> ... like WHATWG with HTML5.
15:32:35 <hhalpin> ... and that group would look at overall integration
15:32:55 <hhalpin> ... a real valuable service
15:33:27 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/QA/2010/06/best_place_new_standards.html
15:33:49 <hhalpin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vision-newstd/
15:34:50 <hhalpin> More things like HTML5 more open work, taking work that's already widely implemented - stuff like ActivityStreams and then basically fast-tracking or endorsing 
15:35:58 <hhalpin> upper-end of the standardization stack, there's also a lot with talk of ISO
15:37:24 <cperey> chairs.. understanding what the SWXG will recommend to W3C and getting agreement on that is important, however, the politics are not as important (to me at least). I'd like to have this meeting come back to the process of preparing the final report of the SWXG
15:38:02 <hhalpin> paul: big players are looking at the IP policies and are concerned
15:38:04 <melvster1>  David Rudin (OWF) offered to help
15:38:31 <bblfish> so what would be needed for WebId standaradisation is:
15:38:31 <bblfish> Stage 1: core spec of WebID (foaf+ssl)
15:38:31 <bblfish>  - review of ontology
15:38:31 <bblfish>  - security/IETF review in detail with TLS people, and recommendation to IETF TLS group perhaps.
15:38:31 <bblfish> Stage 2: additional protocols tie in:
15:38:32 <bblfish>  - tie ins with OpenId, o(x)auth, liberty etc.
15:38:34 <bblfish>  - other issues
15:38:36 <bblfish> I think Stage 1, can be done as a sole project
15:38:47 <cperey> gap analysis [GREAT!]  politics... 
15:38:49 <hhalpin> ACTION: DKA to draft bullet points straw-man for gap analysis
15:38:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-145 - Draft bullet points straw-man for gap analysis [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2010-06-30].
15:39:20 <hhalpin> the gap analysis is obviously quite important and a bit under-developed, but as soon as DKA is done we'll move on the rest of the final report
15:40:27 <bblfish> paul who? sorry
15:40:36 <bblfish> ah yes
15:40:37 <bblfish> ok
15:40:46 <hhalpin> paul: next week in Ukraine, will work online
15:41:18 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Business-considerations-section-draft
15:41:25 <hhalpin> cperey: here it is
15:41:29 <hhalpin> ... I welcome feedback
15:41:40 <hhalpin> ... you can also get me a PDF
15:41:53 <hhalpin> ... big economic incentive with the status quo
15:42:02 <hhalpin> ... a case will have to be made
15:42:12 <hhalpin> ... that new standards have to take into economic environment
15:42:16 <hhalpin> ... we need better incentives
15:42:44 <hhalpin> ... next step is micropayments
15:42:55 <hhalpin> ... if we don't have a proper new business model
15:43:14 <melvster1> payswarm / openmarketplace is quite active
15:43:19 <Zakim> -DKA
15:43:39 <hhalpin> ... then they will pay attention to new work
15:43:45 <hhalpin> ... they don't have a preference to technology use
15:43:49 <hhalpin> ... not my role for technology use
15:44:06 <hhalpin> ... a standard approach for micropayments that covers web and mobile user is inevitable
15:44:19 <Zakim> -petef
15:44:20 <hhalpin> ... but we can go beyond proprietary solutions, payswarm is an open source strategy
15:44:20 <petef> I have to leave too, apologies. Hhalpin I'll catch up with you tomorrow or Friday.
15:44:26 <bblfish> micropayments are really important indeed
15:45:42 <hhalpin> ... the existence of a micropayment system
15:45:52 <hhalpin> ReputationDefender comes to mind
15:46:19 <hhalpin> cperey: so abstracting identity management from networks, transportable across networks.
15:47:22 <hhalpin> paul: in identity space the micropayments are not discussed too much
15:47:34 <hhalpin> ... business is mostly around trust/privacy frameworks for personal data
15:47:38 <cperey> +1 trust frameworks 
15:47:41 <hhalpin> ... WEF is starting a whole program here
15:47:48 <hhalpin> ... personal data ecosystems
15:47:49 <cperey> but someone will need to pay for the personal data ecosystem
15:47:59 <cperey> and probably that will be the user
15:48:06 <hhalpin> ... conversations with Berkman Center, Sandy Pentland's "New Deal for Data"
15:48:19 <hhalpin> ... need to established to handle business/privacy aspects in dealing with data
15:48:37 <hhalpin> ... most of conversations have been around trust/policy frameworks
15:48:48 <cperey> I think those frameworks will go only slowly if there are no economic incentives
15:48:53 <cperey> I would like to make sure that the Framework contributions is included in final report or pointed to from the final report http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/SocialWebFrameworks2
15:48:56 <hhalpin> ... auditing, clients
15:49:03 <bblfish> perhaps problem is that people are finding the need to sell data  and flout pricacy requirements because there is no other ways to get money?
15:49:55 <hhalpin> agreed bblfish
15:50:18 <cperey> Status quo preservation is a business imperative
15:50:24 <cperey> +1
15:50:44 <bblfish> ( it would be fun to do some brain storming on how to do micropayments with WebID ).
15:50:51 <cperey> sorry to miss that last meeting
15:51:28 <cperey> it's also mired in legal problems
15:51:43 <cperey> very, very tied up with national economic entities
15:51:47 <hhalpin> very old 
15:51:51 <hhalpin> w3c work on micropayments
15:51:52 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/ECommerce/Micropayments/
15:52:11 <bblfish> would SSL be enough?
15:52:16 <cperey> that's what I've heard as well. But there can be security/authorization service providers
15:52:27 <hhalpin> paul: general feeling is that the level of assurance is too low with OpenID
15:52:37 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/ECommerce/Micropayments/
15:52:58 <cperey> that's why guaranteed identity service providers/management layer is crucial
15:53:00 <hhalpin> paul: the problem is assuring you think your dealing with who you are dealing with, who's been phished
15:53:07 <hhalpin> not sure bblfish
15:53:07 <bblfish> yes, but you don't know that either with credit cards?
15:53:12 <hhalpin> :)
15:53:18 <bblfish> and is it really important for micropayments?
15:53:53 <hhalpin> paul: usa govt requires openID for zero-level, infocards for higher-levels
15:54:20 <melvster1> yes
15:54:28 <melvster1> but mic isnt working ...
15:54:36 <cperey> +1
15:54:48 <cperey> but my section is only 2 pages!
15:54:49 <melvster1> sure
15:54:57 <paul> credit cards work because there's a parallel network (3d secure, etc.) with a business rules, (effectively a trust framework) behind it
15:55:04 <cperey> yes, I would like that. I think that Tim has a good draft
15:55:24 <cperey> sure. Or to make sure that we are on track for first draft of other sections
15:55:41 <hhalpin> FIRST draft by next week
15:56:00 <melvster1> seems ok :)
15:56:22 <hhalpin> tpa - anyone interesting in giving a good review?
15:56:30 <cperey> +1
15:56:32 <hhalpin> ACTION: paul to review cperey's first draft of business section
15:56:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-146 - Review cperey's first draft of business section [on Paul Trevithick - due 2010-06-30].
15:57:11 <cperey> Yep!
15:57:17 <cperey> good to hear!
15:57:21 <paul> apologies that I won't be on next weeks call
15:57:22 <hhalpin> trackbot, end meeting
15:57:22 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:57:22 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been DKA, +1.781.273.aaaa, MacTed, hhalpin, +1.617.879.aabb, +1.617.848.aacc, cperey, tpa, paul, petef, melvster1, +1.510.931.aadd
15:57:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:57:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-swxg-minutes.html trackbot
15:57:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:57:24 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-swxg-actions.rdf :
15:57:24 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DKA to write introduction. [1]
15:57:24 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-swxg-irc#T15-07-07
15:57:24 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DKA to draft bullet points straw-man for gap analysis [2]
15:57:24 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-swxg-irc#T15-38-49
15:57:24 <RRSAgent> ACTION: paul to review cperey's first draft of business section [3]
15:57:24 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-swxg-irc#T15-56-32
15:57:30 <cperey> paul, can you contact me?
15:57:32 <melvster1> thanks harry!
15:57:34 <bblfish> bye
15:57:36 <cperey> thanks!
15:57:37 <Zakim> -paul
15:57:38 <Zakim> -melvster1