IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-06-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:58:31 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:58:31 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-html-a11y-irc
21:58:33 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
21:58:33 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-a11y
21:58:35 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
21:58:35 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
21:58:36 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
21:58:36 [trackbot]
Date: 02 June 2010
21:58:47 [MichaelC]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0008.html
21:58:51 [MichaelC]
chair: John_Foliot
21:59:05 [janina]
janina has joined #html-a11y
21:59:26 [janina]
zakim, call janina
21:59:26 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
21:59:29 [MichaelC]
regrets: Markku_Hakkinen, Geoff_Freed, Laura_Carlson
22:00:30 [MichaelC]
zakim, this is 2119
22:00:30 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM
22:00:38 [MichaelC]
zakim, who's on the phone?
22:00:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.650.862.aaaa, +1.408.307.aabb, Janina, Michael_Cooper
22:01:01 [MichaelC]
zakim, aaaa is John_Foliot
22:01:01 [Zakim]
+John_Foliot; got it
22:01:06 [MichaelC]
zakim, aabb is Eric_Carlson
22:01:06 [Zakim]
+Eric_Carlson; got it
22:01:28 [mkobayas]
mkobayas has joined #html-a11y
22:01:41 [Zakim]
+ +0154558aacc
22:03:54 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
22:04:11 [Zakim]
+Judy
22:04:37 [Judy]
Judy has joined #html-a11y
22:04:37 [MichaelC]
zakim, aacc is Sean_Hayes
22:04:37 [Zakim]
+Sean_Hayes; got it
22:04:38 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike
22:04:38 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
22:04:40 [Zakim]
+Mike
22:05:00 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, Mike is me
22:05:00 [Zakim]
+MikeSmith; got it
22:05:21 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, mute me
22:05:21 [Zakim]
MikeSmith should now be muted
22:06:21 [janina]
scribe: janina
22:06:44 [janina]
john: let's start with open actions review
22:07:28 [janina]
john: judy's actions?
22:08:06 [janina]
judy: have been working on a comparison to iso, seems orthogonal
22:08:42 [janina]
judy: will post my conclusions
22:09:50 [janina]
judy: so complete on iso comparison, but not on checking with other key individuals
22:10:36 [janina]
judy: also unsure how to engage external people effectively without overwhelming them
22:11:22 [janina]
judy: while action wasn't recroded, i did some work on the disability language in the doc, and will still complete that
22:11:54 [janina]
john: is frank here?
22:11:57 [janina]
[silence]
22:13:01 [janina]
zakim, next topic
22:13:01 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'next topic', janina
22:13:15 [janina]
topic: requirements document review
22:13:56 [janina]
john: john: not sure how to break our log jam and move forward
22:14:40 [janina]
john: much media will be pushed via the net, whether via specialized ua, or a general browser, our doc is important
22:15:06 [Zakim]
+ +61.3.986.4.aadd
22:15:19 [janina]
john: we don't have the luxury to continue debating the doc, though
22:15:51 [janina]
john: our survey was to make sure our doc is complete
22:16:08 [janina]
john: think going through the doc detail by detail is premature
22:16:30 [janina]
eric: perhaps i misunderstood what our purpose was in these requirements
22:16:30 [MichaelC]
zakim, aadd is Kenny_Johar
22:16:30 [Zakim]
+Kenny_Johar; got it
22:16:47 [janina]
eric: i understood that these would be required of any ua that implemented html5 media
22:17:33 [janina]
john: my understanding, from the a11y side, is to fully participate in consumption of this media
22:17:39 [janina]
q!
22:17:42 [janina]
q+
22:17:52 [MikeSmith]
I think other implementors are liking to view requirements in the same way that Eric just described -- as implementation requirements
22:18:32 [janina]
john: for instance, sign-language differs from country to country
22:18:45 [Sean]
Sean has joined #html-a11y
22:19:21 [janina]
john: it'll be a tricky balancing
22:19:47 [janina]
shawn: i think a lot of our requirements aren't technically difficult
22:19:54 [janina]
ack s
22:20:29 [janina]
eric: not so sure
22:21:23 [janina]
eric: hard to decode on small platform
22:21:30 [janina]
shawn: but there are other ways to achieve this
22:25:38 [janina]
janina: we need it in the spec so that it can be covered
22:25:59 [Judy]
q+
22:26:05 [janina]
eric: but, even on the desktop smil2 is lots of work
22:26:18 [janina]
eric: so not necessarily easy to do
22:26:43 [janina]
eric: are these rfc2119 musts?
22:26:47 [Judy]
q+ to say that's why we separated out what the user needs vs how they can be technically achieved, so we wouldn't go into that
22:27:21 [janina]
shawn: not necessarily that we need smil, but that we need the ability to do these things
22:27:44 [janina]
judy: we specifically separated user needs to avoid this conundrum
22:27:53 [janina]
eric: but we need to discuss what is required
22:27:58 [janina]
judy: absolutely agree
22:28:01 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, unmute me
22:28:01 [Zakim]
MikeSmith should no longer be muted
22:28:52 [janina]
eric: my concern is that 'requirement' rfc2119 'must' on the user agent
22:29:31 [janina]
john: i think everyone here is realistic
22:29:46 [janina]
john: we should remember the concept of "graceful degradation"
22:30:49 [janina]
john: yes, going back to the described video example, it's a balancing thing here too
22:32:07 [janina]
john: some kind of switching mechanism may be needed between a generalized broser and a more specialized player ua
22:33:12 [MikeSmith]
q+ what we ultimately need in regard to the spec is a specific (sub)set of requirements for HTML UAs
22:33:14 [janina]
janina: it's a question of what html5 wants to be, if a rich media platform, all these requirements will be needed somewhere, though probably almost never on any individual content item
22:33:16 [MikeSmith]
q+ to say what we ultimately need in regard to the spec is a specific (sub)set of requirements for HTML UAs
22:33:39 [janina]
ack ja
22:33:48 [janina]
ack ju
22:33:48 [Zakim]
Judy, you wanted to say that's why we separated out what the user needs vs how they can be technically achieved, so we wouldn't go into that
22:34:23 [janina]
judy: we keep hearing the question of whether we need to prioritize these
22:34:57 [janina]
judy: should we discuss prioritization?
22:35:15 [janina]
john: also my question in some ways
22:35:42 [Judy]
q+
22:36:09 [janina]
john: a bit disappointed in so few responses
22:36:25 [Judy]
q+ to then ask whether there are things that we could do with the call today that would help people get through their surveys more easily
22:36:31 [Judy]
ack M
22:36:31 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to say what we ultimately need in regard to the spec is a specific (sub)set of requirements for HTML UAs
22:36:52 [janina]
mike: i think eric's response will be typical of browser developers
22:37:10 [janina]
mike: the spec provides conformance criteria
22:37:53 [janina]
mike: if there are requirements on something other than browsers, then it's not about html
22:38:34 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, mute me
22:38:34 [Zakim]
MikeSmith should now be muted
22:39:45 [janina]
janina: i can support rfc2119 should, but the spec needs to comprehend most of these because the intent seems to be a full gammut of media hosted via html
22:40:27 [janina]
john: so our experience to date has been that addons and plugins may play something launched from the browser
22:42:13 [janina]
john: expect the browser will be more limited janina: not sure that browser may need to drive it all
22:43:08 [Judy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
22:43:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Janina, Michael_Cooper, Sean_Hayes, Judy, MikeSmith (muted), Kenny_Johar
22:43:32 [janina]
judy: want to raise a different point ...
22:43:39 [MichaelC]
q?
22:43:56 [janina]
judy: want to come back to the question of what will help move forward
22:44:27 [janina]
judy: only one person on this call has filled out the survey, so can we ask a new deadline for survey?
22:45:31 [janina]
john: so, is this a wrong understanding of where we're headed?
22:45:34 [janina]
eric: what?
22:46:21 [janina]
john: html
22:47:06 [janina]
john: is should language overly onorous
22:47:34 [janina]
eric: seems we want interoperable content on the web, so a spec that all user agents that most people use will implement
22:48:01 [janina]
eric; so description of any feature in the spec needs to be so well described that it will be implemented consistently
22:48:37 [janina]
shawn: but it's about how we capture author intent, not how user agents provide it
22:48:52 [janina]
shawn: roughly the same way sounds ok, but not exactly the same way my competitor does
22:49:27 [janina]
eric: so spec doesn't say how to do some thing, but what it should do
22:49:38 [janina]
eric: so external file format needs specification
22:50:01 [janina]
john: so, eric, you mentioned multiple audio streams unsupportable on some devices today
22:50:36 [janina]
john: so maybe not today, but who knows about a year from now? I recall touch interfaces were experimental just a few years ago
22:51:45 [janina]
john: we just don't want today's device limitations constrain our specification of what's needed
22:52:08 [janina]
shawn: so there's an issue of balance between providing the data in a form that something can be done with it
22:52:22 [janina]
shawn: so that's authoring--give the data in a usable way
22:52:28 [janina]
shawn: the must of what the content supports
22:52:34 [janina]
shawn: and the should of what the ua does
22:52:41 [janina]
shawn: we need to capture the musts
22:52:46 [janina]
john: agree
22:52:49 [janina]
janina well said
22:53:23 [janina]
john: do we have agreement of where to go with this?
22:53:23 [Judy]
q+
22:53:29 [janina]
silence -- taken as ascent
22:53:48 [janina]
john: so, judy ...
22:53:50 [Judy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
22:53:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Janina, Michael_Cooper, Sean_Hayes, Judy, MikeSmith (muted), Kenny_Johar
22:55:00 [janina]
judy: i expect so few have completed the form because there's so much to do in completing it
22:55:21 [janina]
shawn: will do, but want weekend
22:55:43 [janina]
janina: ditto
22:55:49 [janina]
kenny: end of today
22:56:01 [janina]
john: by monday
22:56:25 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, unmute me
22:56:25 [Zakim]
MikeSmith should no longer be muted
22:56:35 [janina]
mike: don't plan to respond
22:56:45 [janina]
michael: don't feel qualified on this
22:56:54 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, mute me
22:56:54 [Zakim]
MikeSmith should now be muted
22:56:56 [janina]
judy: monday is better for me
22:57:55 [janina]
john: so can we extend this until monday?
22:58:18 [janina]
john: and we need to send around another explanation that we want to capture user requirements
22:58:33 [Judy]
+1 to accept input via email as well
22:59:06 [janina]
janina: extend to 23:59 boston time
22:59:15 [janina]
s/time/time monday/
22:59:33 [janina]
john: so we should have more complete results next wednesday
23:00:33 [Judy]
janina: not sure that's the correct breakdown
23:00:53 [Judy]
...Sean Hayes helped us understand constaints around the authored requirements
23:00:58 [Zakim]
-Kenny_Johar
23:01:02 [Judy]
...the must part might be on what the spec provides
23:01:15 [Judy]
...maybe the should are what the user agent can do
23:02:03 [Judy]
...if this is going to be a media platform, then we don't want the breakdown to be 'we can do text descriptions but we can't provide for audio description tracks"
23:03:16 [Judy]
Janina: if you don't have a way to support how you implement something in the spec then you're nowhere
23:06:09 [janina]
janina: i'm not clear that prioritizing these is the right way to go
23:08:49 [JF]
Janina: if HTML5 is to become the platform for media, then we need to ensure that we have a means to capture all of these requirements, alternatives and requirements specified
23:09:36 [janina]
john: don't disagree, but wonder whether we should start with author or 'must and should'
23:09:51 [janina]
john: think the latter because of what the engineers are saying
23:10:33 [janina]
john: think we should start with user agent requirements
23:11:25 [janina]
john: if our user reqs doc is more or less complete, i suggest our next discussion is ua requirements
23:12:46 [Judy]
q+
23:15:54 [Judy]
q-
23:17:00 [JF]
Sean: next step is to turn user requirements to tech requirements
23:17:35 [JF]
Eric: next step is to get clarification of some of the user requirements
23:17:42 [JF]
Sean: agrees with Eric
23:17:58 [janina]
shawn: next step is to turn these into tech reqs, then to decide what's on content and what's on ua
23:18:16 [janina]
eric: think we first need to agree on the user reqs
23:20:26 [janina]
john: so that should be our agenda for next week--item by item discussion and sign off
23:20:59 [janina]
john: any other business, questions for now?
23:21:20 [janina]
john: thanks to everyone!
23:21:21 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop me
23:21:21 [Zakim]
MikeSmith is being disconnected
23:21:22 [Zakim]
-MikeSmith
23:21:23 [Zakim]
-Sean_Hayes
23:21:26 [Zakim]
-John_Foliot
23:21:27 [Zakim]
-Eric_Carlson
23:21:27 [Zakim]
-Judy
23:21:27 [janina]
zakim, bye
23:21:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
23:21:28 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.650.862.aaaa, Janina, +1.408.307.aabb, Michael_Cooper, John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, +0154558aacc, Judy, Sean_Hayes, MikeSmith,
23:21:31 [Zakim]
... +61.3.986.4.aadd, Kenny_Johar
23:21:34 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:21:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-html-a11y-minutes.html janina