IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-05-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:38:47 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/05-html-a11y-minutes.html plh-home

00:50:20 [plh-home]

trackbot, where am I?

00:50:20 [trackbot]

Sorry, plh-home, I don't understand 'trackbot, where am I?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

00:50:30 [plh-home]

action-6?

00:50:30 [trackbot]

ACTION-6 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to address fragments versus entire pages as alternatives with HTML WG members -- due 2010-01-21 -- CLOSED

00:50:30 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/6

01:06:21 [Judy]

Judy has joined #html-a11y

04:09:40 [MikeSmith]

MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y

06:34:59 [MikeSmith]

MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y

14:59:15 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y

14:59:15 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-html-a11y-irc

14:59:17 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

14:59:19 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 2119

14:59:19 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute

14:59:20 [trackbot]

Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

14:59:20 [trackbot]

Date: 06 May 2010

14:59:28 [MikeSmith]

Zakim, call Mike

14:59:28 [Zakim]

ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made

14:59:48 [janina]

zakim, call janina

14:59:48 [Zakim]

ok, janina; the call is being made

15:00:31 [janina]

zakim, drop janina

15:00:31 [Zakim]

sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is

15:00:52 [Ben]

Ben has joined #html-a11y

15:00:54 [oedipus]

zakim, who is here?

15:00:54 [Zakim]

apparently WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM has ended, oedipus

15:00:54 [janina]

zakim, this will be html-a11y

15:00:55 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Ben, RRSAgent, janina, MikeSmith, Marco_Ranon, JF, kliehm, oedipus, MichaelC, Zakim, AllanJ, trackbot

15:00:57 [Zakim]

I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina

15:01:06 [janina]

zakim, call janina

15:01:06 [Zakim]

ok, janina; the call is being made

15:01:16 [MichaelC]

zakim, this is 2119

15:01:16 [Zakim]

ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM

15:01:24 [oedipus]

zakim, who is here?

15:01:26 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper

15:01:28 [Zakim]

On the phone I see John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, Mike, Janina (muted), kliehm, Geoff_Freed, Michael_Cooper

15:01:34 [janina]

zakim, drop janina

15:01:36 [Zakim]

+Marco

15:01:40 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Ben, RRSAgent, janina, MikeSmith, Marco_Ranon, JF, kliehm, oedipus, MichaelC, Zakim, AllanJ, trackbot

15:01:41 [janina]

zakim, call janina

15:01:47 [Zakim]

Janina is being disconnected

15:01:51 [Zakim]

-Janina

15:01:53 [Zakim]

+Matt

15:02:00 [Zakim]

ok, janina; the call is being made

15:02:03 [Zakim]

+Janina

15:02:55 [Zakim]

-Janina

15:03:16 [Ben]

zakim, code?

15:03:17 [Zakim]

+Janina_Sajka

15:03:25 [MikeSmith]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:03:41 [Zakim]

the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Ben

15:03:50 [dboudreau]

dboudreau has joined #html-a11y

15:03:57 [Zakim]

On the phone I see John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, Mike, kliehm (muted), Geoff_Freed, Michael_Cooper, Marco, Matt, Janina_Sajka

15:04:16 [dboudreau]

getting on phone asap, sorry for being late

15:04:28 [Zakim]

+??P6

15:04:43 [Zakim]

+Ben

15:04:52 [MichaelC]

zakim, ??P6 is Cynthia_Shelly

15:04:52 [Zakim]

+Cynthia_Shelly; got it

15:05:06 [cyns]

cyns has joined #html-a11y

15:05:16 [cyns]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

15:05:16 [Zakim]

On the phone I see John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, Mike, kliehm (muted), Geoff_Freed, Michael_Cooper, Marco, Matt, Janina_Sajka, Cynthia_Shelly, Ben

15:05:32 [cyns]

Zakim, Cynthia_Shelly is me

15:05:32 [Zakim]

+cyns; got it

15:05:51 [Zakim]

+Denis_Boudreau

15:06:11 [dboudreau]

merci greg

15:06:17 [Zakim]

+Rich

15:06:22 [MikeSmith]

agenda+ ARIA integration

15:06:36 [richardschwerdtfe]

richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y

15:06:38 [MikeSmith]

agenda+ Media TF status

15:06:44 [MikeSmith]

agenda+ Canvas status

15:07:11 [MikeSmith]

agenda+ table summarry

15:07:23 [MikeSmith]

s/summarry/summary/

15:07:52 [MikeSmith]

agenda+ bugzilla a11y bug summaries

15:08:33 [MikeSmith]

agenda+ review of open bugs

15:09:02 [mattmay]

mattmay has joined #html-a11y

15:09:23 [mattmay]

scribe: mattmay

15:10:05 [MikeSmith]

zakim, take up item 12

15:10:05 [Zakim]

agendum 12. "table summarry" taken up [from MikeSmith]

15:10:19 [janina]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0054.html

15:10:41 [MichaelC]

drop item 4

15:10:44 [MichaelC]

drop item 5

15:10:47 [MichaelC]

drop item 6

15:10:48 [MichaelC]

drop item 7

15:10:50 [MichaelC]

drop item 8

15:10:53 [mattmay]

janina: Last week we discussed putting in a baseline on @summary for LC

15:11:51 [oedipus]

hixie reply: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0055.html

15:11:57 [oedipus]

JOC reply: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0065.html

15:12:03 [oedipus]

GJR reply: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0069.html

15:12:08 [mattmay]

janina: We wanted to come up with a human-generated solution to meet the deadline. We can start voting.

15:12:15 [MikeSmith]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0054.html CFC re ISSUE-32 "Table-Summary" (e-mail message from Janina)

15:12:22 [MikeSmith]

RRSAgent, make minutes

15:12:22 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith

15:12:58 [mhakkinen]

mhakkinen has joined #html-a11y

15:14:07 [Zakim]

+Mark_Hakkinen

15:14:20 [mattmay]

MikeSmith: We have an objection from Ian. Nothing novel.

15:14:48 [janina]

The HTML-A11Y Task Force supports the change proposal at

15:14:48 [janina]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Summary_Change_Proposal_Nov_18,_2009

15:14:48 [janina]

to reinstate table summary as conforming and not +obsolete. We adopt

15:14:48 [janina]

this recommendation even as we continue engineering work on possible

15:14:48 [janina]

enhancements to table summary. However,+any enhancements we might

15:14:49 [janina]

propose would only elaborate on this proposal and, most particularly,

15:14:51 [janina]

would not remove the support +for author provided text as has been

15:14:53 [janina]

present in HTML4. Thus this recommendation serves as our baseline of

15:14:55 [janina]

table summary support.

15:14:56 [MikeSmith]

-> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Summary_Change_Proposal_Nov_18,_2009 Summary Change Proposal Nov 18, 2009

15:15:08 [oedipus]

from GJR reply to hixie: "given the fact that those who actually use and benefit from summary are demanding that -- in the absence of a superior mechanism -- @summary should be retained for now as it was defined in HTML4, how can your theoretical and highly speculative objections override a user need?"

15:15:49 [Zakim]

+Eric

15:15:57 [mattmay]

MikeSmith: Consensus in the TF is that we don't want @summary to be obsolete.

15:16:10 [oedipus]

GJR plus 1 to @summary conforming and NOT obsolete

15:16:12 [mattmay]

janina: We want it to be conforming, and the words are in the resolution.

15:16:13 [dboudreau]

+1

15:16:18 [eric_carlson]

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15:16:45 [mattmay]

janina: We're going to move forward from this baseline. Trying to help HTML WG reach LC.

15:16:47 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Table

15:17:01 [MikeSmith]

RRSAgent, make minutes

15:17:01 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith

15:17:06 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Table_Summary

15:17:20 [mattmay]

cyns: Same CP I put forward in November: go back to HTML 4 status quo, get rid of validator warning.

15:17:42 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/summary_element

15:17:46 [mattmay]

cyns: Seems like the easiest thing to do is put it back while we move forward.

15:18:47 [mattmay]

MikeSmith: I think it's in the hands of the WG chairs from here.

15:20:06 [oedipus]

proposed RESOLUTION: The HTML-A11Y Task Force supports the change proposal at http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Summary_Change_Proposal_Nov_18,_2009 to reinstate table summary as conforming and not +obsolete. We adopt this recommendation even as we continue engineering work on possible enhancements to table summary. However,+any enhancements we might propose would only elaborate on this proposal and, most particularly, would not remove the support +for au

15:20:13 [oedipus]

GJR plus 1

15:20:49 [oedipus]

Proposed Res continued: "Thus this recommendation serves as our baseline of table summary support."

15:20:58 [JF]

+1 to Resolution

15:21:07 [dboudreau]

in favor as well

15:21:11 [mattmay]

+1

15:21:12 [Marco_Ranon]

+1 to Resolution

15:21:19 [kliehm]

+1

15:23:30 [janina]

The HTML-A11Y Task Force supports the change proposal at

15:23:30 [janina]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Summary_Change_Proposal_Nov_18,_2009

15:23:30 [janina]

to reinstate table summary as conforming and not +obsolete. We adopt

15:23:30 [janina]

this recommendation even as we continue engineering work on possible

15:23:30 [janina]

enhancements to table summary. However,+any enhancements we might

15:23:31 [janina]

propose would only elaborate on this proposal and, most particularly,

15:23:32 [oedipus]

proposed res: proposed RESOLUTION: The HTML-A11Y TF supports the change proposal at http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Summary_Change_Proposal_Nov_18,_2009 to reinstate table summary as conforming and not +obsolete. We adopt this recommendation even as we continue engineering work on possible enhancements to table summary.Thus this recommendation serves as our baseline of table summary support.

15:23:33 [janina]

would not remove the support +for author provided text as has been

15:23:35 [janina]

present in HTML4. Thus this recommendation serves as our baseline of

15:23:37 [janina]

table summary support.

15:24:30 [mattmay]

RESOLUTION: The HTML-A11Y Task Force supports the change proposal at http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Summary_Change_Proposal_Nov_18,_2009 to reinstate table summary as conforming and not obsolete. We adopt this recommendation even as we continue engineering work on possible enhancements to table summary.

15:24:50 [Stevef]

Stevef has joined #html-a11y

15:25:06 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:25:15 [mattmay]

RESOLUTION: However, any enhancements we might propose would only elaborate on this proposal and, most particularly, would not remove the support for author-provided text as has been present in HTML4. Thus this recommendation serves as our baseline of table summary support.

15:25:29 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:25:33 [oedipus]

chair: Mike_Smith

15:25:49 [MikeSmith]

agenda?

15:25:58 [Stevef]

zakim, IPcaller is SteveF

15:26:01 [Zakim]

+SteveF; got it

15:26:04 [oedipus]

regrets+ Laura_Carlson, Sylvia_Pfiefer

15:26:14 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:26:27 [MikeSmith]

Zakim, take up item 9

15:26:27 [Zakim]

agendum 9. "ARIA integration" taken up [from MikeSmith]

15:27:09 [mattmay]

Stevef: Aiming to finish by the end of June.

15:27:47 [mattmay]

MikeSmith: Anything blocking this?

15:27:50 [mattmay]

richardschwerdtfe: no.

15:29:39 [oedipus]

steveF, i will post the proposed appendix to the alt advice doc on the wiki for others with strong opinions to comment upon

15:29:44 [mattmay]

cyns: We've identified work items.

15:30:03 [Zakim]

+Jim_Allan

15:30:08 [Stevef]

oedipus:ok thanks

15:30:23 [mattmay]

janina: There's a 90-minute telecon for this item, Tuesdays at 1900Z.

15:31:03 [MikeSmith]

this is for issue 85

15:32:30 [MikeSmith]

zakim, take up item 11

15:32:30 [Zakim]

agendum 11. "Canvas status" taken up [from MikeSmith]

15:33:09 [mattmay]

MikeSmith: Still haven't gotten feedback on our proposal. It's in the WG chairs' hands.

15:34:01 [mattmay]

MikeSmith: Also need to process imagemaps proposal.

15:34:14 [mattmay]

MikeSmith: Need to form a concrete imagemap CP

15:35:18 [mattmay]

MikeSmith: Feedback to the chairs by 27 May. Would like chaals to have a proposal by 13 May.

15:36:15 [Zakim]

-Jim_Allan

15:36:43 [mattmay]

richardschwerdtfe: On focus caret, proposal was sent out on 11 Apr. Didn't get a response. Asked Apple, Mozilla and MS directly. Talked with Frank, David Bolter, made edits, submitted this week. Need feedback from Apple/MS.

15:36:44 [Zakim]

+Jim_Allan

15:36:45 [oedipus]

Rich's Draft Revisons to Canvas 2D Context API (11 April 2010) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0121.html

15:37:10 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/att-0121/2dcontext10-Apr-11.html

15:37:29 [mattmay]

richardschwerdtfe: We want to deliver the poll by 24 May, final proposal by 3 June.

15:38:00 [oedipus]

caret tracking and focus query from Rich on Canvas: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0025.html

15:38:09 [mattmay]

richardschwerdtfe: Not sure how we're going to map the caret on OS X. There's a gap on Linux, but we can get that corrected in Linux Foundation.

15:38:24 [Zakim]

-Mark_Hakkinen

15:38:46 [Zakim]

-Ben

15:38:47 [oedipus]

rich, eric offered to talk to maciej on focus and caret issues

15:39:08 [Zakim]

+Ben

15:39:13 [Stevef]

+

15:39:26 [mattmay]

eric_carlson: I will talk to Maciej.

15:40:07 [oedipus]

s/with Frank, David/with Frank Olivier, David/

15:40:36 [richardschwerdtfe]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010AprJun/0021.html

15:40:59 [Zakim]

+Mark_Hakkinen

15:41:27 [oedipus]

rich, 13 may is what mike said earlier

15:42:28 [oedipus]

dbolter reply to RichS' specific questions: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0338.html

15:42:40 [Stevef]

q+

15:43:03 [oedipus]

frank olivier's initial feedback to RichS: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0296.html

15:43:12 [MikeSmith]

agenda?

15:43:18 [MikeSmith]

ack Stevef

15:43:29 [MikeSmith]

zakim, drop item 12

15:43:29 [Zakim]

agendum 12, table summarry, dropped

15:43:33 [MikeSmith]

zakim, drop item 11

15:43:33 [Zakim]

agendum 11, Canvas status, dropped

15:43:36 [MikeSmith]

zakim, drop item 9

15:43:36 [Zakim]

agendum 9, ARIA integration, dropped

15:44:24 [mattmay]

Stevef: I've been asking about how to get the alt document published as FPWD, but no answers.

15:44:47 [MikeSmith]

Topic: Steve Faulkner needs feedback on taking the alt-techniques document to FPWD

15:45:08 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

15:46:28 [mattmay]

MikeSmith: I'll figure it out. Shouldn't be objections to publishing.

15:46:40 [mattmay]

Stevef: The objection may be that there is normative advice.

15:47:14 [mattmay]

Stevef: Shouldn't be a blocker, because neither it nor the HTML draft text has consensus.

15:47:36 [oedipus]

could file bugs against html5 after alt advice published as public draft

15:49:15 [JF]

Media Subgroup minutes of May 5: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0056.html

15:49:30 [JF]

Accessibility Requirements of Media: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Accessibility_Requirements_of_Media

15:49:32 [MikeSmith]

zakim, take up item 10

15:49:32 [Zakim]

agendum 10. "Media TF status" taken up [from MikeSmith]

15:50:02 [MikeSmith]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0056.html Media Subgroup minutes of May 5

15:50:13 [mattmay]

JF: We need to formalize our accessibility requirements. Need a clear and concise working plan.

15:50:23 [MikeSmith]

-> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Accessibility_Requirements_of_Media Accessibility Requirements of Media

15:50:27 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Sub-Group

15:50:50 [mattmay]

JF: We need lots of eyes on this. Log into wiki to add comments.

15:51:46 [mattmay]

JF: Timed Text is an issue.

15:52:23 [mattmay]

janina: There was significant concern, particularly among developers, that spec language is being introduced for media that is not based on input that is being processed for the HTML WG.

15:53:20 [mattmay]

janina: There was a concern that this is not W3C process.

15:53:33 [MikeSmith]

q?

15:53:35 [oedipus]

q?

15:53:38 [mattmay]

janina: There was no objection to raising this to the WG.

15:54:14 [mattmay]

Geoff: Assuming you're talking about WebSRT. It occurred to me that I don't know who Ian is or his role.

15:54:27 [mattmay]

Geoff: Why is he allowed to do this without consensus?

15:54:57 [dboudreau]

grabbong a pop corn and a coke.. this will be interestong

15:56:07 [oedipus]

aside from editing HTML5, hixie also edits CSS 2.1 and XUL amongst others

15:56:13 [mattmay]

janina: WHATWG process allows Ian to commit changes to HTML5 spec independently. So far, nobody has stepped up to edit pieces of it.

15:56:24 [MikeSmith]

-> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html HTML Working Group Decision Policy

15:57:53 [mattmay]

MikeSmith: HTML WG has done something unique: it's documented a decision policy that puts some authority in the hand of the editors. They have a measure of authority to author spec text in an editor's draft, then to put the obligation on people to object and produce change proposals.

15:57:54 [mattmay]

q+

15:58:10 [MikeSmith]

ack mattmay

15:58:26 [JF]

+1 to matt

15:58:50 [oedipus]

geoff, WHAT WG is located (surprisingly) at http://www.whatwg.org/

15:59:20 [oedipus]

MM: voices objections about antagonism which seems to be part of the HTML WG dysfunction

15:59:22 [oedipus]

plus 1

16:00:23 [mattmay]

JF: This was deliberately provocative. There was lots of discussion of DFXP/SRT, the results of which showed that we were all on the same page. Some grudging acceptance of getting SRT out the door, but also DFXP. Then, to have the WHATWG throw something like WebSRT.

16:00:34 [mattmay]

JF: I think the chairs need to do something to stop this process.

16:00:37 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus

16:01:57 [mattmay]

MikeSmith: We need to discuss this with the chairs. Once it's in the spec, it increases the work we have to do to make further changes.

16:03:04 [MikeSmith]

q?

16:03:34 [oedipus]

also being implemented by fiat despite w3c boilerplate disclaimers on instability of spec in development

16:03:43 [mattmay]

Stevef: This has already been discussed on Ajaxian as "the captioning standard for HTML5". Going to be hard to extract.

16:03:54 [JF]

the text in question: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/video.html#websrt

16:04:54 [Laura]

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16:04:55 [Zakim]

-SteveF

16:05:08 [dboudreau]

take care all

16:05:12 [MikeSmith]

Zakim, drop Mike

16:05:15 [Marco_Ranon]

bye

16:05:16 [AllanJ]

AllanJ has left #html-a11y

16:05:22 [MikeSmith]

RRSAgent, make minutes

16:05:22 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith

16:05:59 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #html-a11y

16:06:03 [MichaelC]

zakim, this is 2119

16:06:03 [Zakim]

sorry, MichaelC, I do not see a conference named '2119' in progress or scheduled at this time

16:06:08 [Ben]

Ben has left #html-a11y

16:06:22 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #html-a11y

16:06:35 [janina]

janina has left #html-a11y

16:08:36 [MichaelC]

present: John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, Mike, kliehm (muted), Geoff_Freed, Michael_Cooper, Marco, Matt, Janina_Sajka, Cynthia_Shelly, Ben, Denis_Boudreau, Rich, Mark_Hakkinen, Eric, SteveF, Jim_Allan

16:09:04 [MichaelC]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:09:04 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-html-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC

16:09:33 [MichaelC]

present- kliehm_(muted)

16:09:36 [MichaelC]

present+ kliehm

16:09:46 [MichaelC]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:09:46 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/06-html-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC

16:11:15 [richardschwerdtfe]

richardschwerdtfe has left #html-a11y

16:42:10 [eric_carlson]

eric_carlson has left #html-a11y