EOWG -- 30 Apr 2010

<scribe> Scribe: Doyle

<scribe> ScribeNick: doylesaylor

Training Resource Suite - discuss final drafts

Shawn: We want to make sure that everyone is comfortable with putting this out. The suite is ten years old. Andrew and Shadi have significantly polished the content. Can we replace out there with this new draft.

<shawn> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2010AprJun/0015.html

Shawn: we want to make sure we can do that. Then talk about making any pages today before we replace the old pages. After that whatever other suggestions we want to make. We want to talk about the H1 titles. Any suggestions before we put the draft in place.

Wayne: let's go through it to find any stand out issues. Looks much better.

Shawn: Make sure everyone on the call is comfortable with these? Any concerns or objections?

Doyle: accept

Heather: I accept

Wayne: I accept.
... I can do really careful proof reading this weekend also.

<shadi> RESOLUTION: accept replacing current training resources with the new drafts (and clearly indicate these as drafts) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2010AprJun/0015.html

Shawn: that would be good. We will need on three day training especially. On the first one developing web training overview, the next one presentation modules, thenexample Presentations, and finally example training. How does that work for you? They used to be 'topics'.

Heather: One introduces accessibility, and the other. Which ones are modules? It's not clearly indicated? Module one introduces web accessibility?

Shawn: Module is the idea start here and go to the next. Whereas these are not designed this way. In some situation you might use only module, or another three one and five.

Andrew: yes, you would dip into what is appropriate to the audience at the moment. That is why the topics are grouped that way.

Heather: basically topics listed under the modules. A module compromises several topics, doesn't have to depend on another module. A bigger umbrella to hold it's on content. Topic one under module one is introducing web accessibility. I scroll down and see one point to introducing accessibility.

Andrew: we are mixing out jargon?

Heather: yes that is what I think. sounds like module one is a topic.

Shadi: I was thinking of the mechanical approach. A module is the smallest part to build a presentation. That was the word module conveys. The topic is much more is like a theme. Rather than more encapsulated than module. Look at what we provide, suggestions enclose parts in themselves. That was thought behind it.

Heather: I am used to and modules is the biggest piece of something, and it contains several topics in it. Then sub topics would be in the numbers.

Shawn: Lets look at a numbered item. Web accessibility and older users as an example. Number 14. What would you call this?

Heather: that is topic. Falls into managing accessibility.

Wayne: yes I agree.

<Andrew> andrew too

Shawn: you have 18 topics on this page, what do you recommend when you look at this page, is topics, modules? To say quickly.

Heather: there would be a list of modules and topics in them to pick and choose from.

Andrew: yes.

Shawn: we did not design these as modules. This originally was a long list of topics. We used the WAI structure to break up the list of topics. Useful to call modules? Or best topics?

Heather: what's wrong with it is currently done? Nicely laid out, clear, just to say clearly module one is ...

Shawn: we need to make if that really makes sense. I would not call a module called guidelines and techniques.

Heather: I would completely take out the list of modules.

Shawn: beneficial to call them modules or go back to topics.

Wayne: beneficial to call topics.

Shawn: A concern is that topic is not significantly enough?

Shadi: the word topic in my mind, does not give the sense it is a training entity, more a theme. Fix the sentences that describe it. The first sentence says provides individual topics they can use.

Shawn: Let's do some brainstorming. I come up with unit, component, part element section for topics.

Shadi: Maybe units?

Heather: we don't use units at all because it is math.

Shawn: Subject no, area,

Wayne: I don't see what's wrong with the groupings you have as modules. But change the word introducing access to basic accessibility concepts. The guidelines and techniques is a cohesive unit. I would be comfortable. Teaching how to build a presentation.
... the second one is really big topic, one is a conceptual framework another is getting down to the nuts and bolts, a how to, when do we know we're there? Taken from the web page is a pretty good foundation.

<Andrew> what about 'subject'?

Shawn: what word is going to entice people to come here. Which word would shape what to expect coming here. I have a presentation module page what would they expect to be there. Etc.
... If you told people you have these two pages what would actually make sense to have there.

Andrew: personally topics makes more sense, and modules is more generic.
... subject?

Shawn: subjects, maybe...I wanted to looked in a later page in the examples presentations page, a column that says topic. Really good for that word to match.

Andrew: has to, even if we stay with modules, the H2 list of modules is actually a list of topics organized by modules.

<shawn> Topics for Web Accessibility Presentations and Training

Shawn: I propose this to Topics for Web Accessibility and Training.. Shadi?

Shadi: I can go with that. A full topic for that page, what a short name would be in the left navigation?

Shawn: just topics.

Wayne: that would be fine.

<shawn> ACTION: b4 pub: change <title>& <h1> to Topics for Web Accessibility Presentations and Training (nav : Topics) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/30-eo-minutes.html#action01]

Shawn: let's look at the other titles in H1. Example ...in web accessibility training. Why training instead of workshop?

<shadi> ACTION: check all references to "Topics" vs "Modules" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/30-eo-minutes.html#action02]

Wayne: Either one sounds fine. I don't have a preference there.

Shadi: I thought training was the more general term, and workshop is one style of training.

Shawn: I was thinking presentation is a training. REally the overall thing is training, then presentation is one type, or tutorial.

Shadi: short trainings?

Andrew: collectively they are all example trainings we call shorter ones presentations, and longer ones trainings.

Doyle: I use the words like Andrew.

Shadi: we have an entire presentation somewhere else, and this is called trainings and presentations.

Shawn: Any objections chaning example training to example workshop? (no ojbections)

<shawn> ACTION: b4 pub: change <title>& <h1> to Example Web Accessibility Workshop [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/30-eo-minutes.html#action03]

Shawn: Let's look at the overview page.
... I think we need to look at that in context in relation to the other pages. Wayne and Doyle look at this now?
... we need to look at the whole category under presentation and training, talk about now to discuss now?

Doyle: can we have input?

Shadi: I think to work out a suggestion. This can change in the future to work out on the call is fine then.

<shawn> } Presentations and Training http://www.w3.org/WAI/train.html

<shawn> }} WAI Presentations http://www.w3.org/WAI/presentations/Overview.php

<shawn> }}} Components http://www.w3.org/WAI/presentations/components/

<shawn> }}} Older Users http://www.w3.org/WAI/presentations/ageing/

<shawn> }}} ...

<shawn> }} Developing Presentations and Training [or Material or ?] http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/training/2009/Overview.html

Shawn: I was looking at (see IRC)

<shawn> }}} Topics [or Presentation Modules]

<shawn> }}} Presentation Outlines [or Example Presentations]

<shawn> }}} Workshop Outline [or Example Training]

<shawn> }} Making Presentations Accessible http://www.w3.org/WAI/training/accessible.php

Shawn: one of the things I noted there is a bit of redundency between the current the overview page of this suite, and what we are calling the annotated page, currently called developing training. See IRC is a potential ordering. Leaving that as a secondary level. First level is presentations and trainings, under that WAI training development materail then the three pages would fall under that. Then making presentations accessible.
... that is one organization.

Andrew: works for me. Bringing up one level with three topics at this stage.

Shawn: Shadi can you see that? Just training instead of developing presentations?

Shadi: yes it was, this suggestions makes this work more.

Shawn: when I realize when I look at this, people understanding what they get.

Doyle: works for me.

Wayne: It's ok.

Shawn: it's the wrapping that makes it hard to process.
... maybe make the levels or indicators more significant somehow. Label I or abc. Next. Overall in this section and we say example presentations or example workshops. Would they think that a workshop itself?

Wayne: yes they would jump to that.

Shawn: I wonder if instead saying example... say presentation outlines?

Andrew: that's good shawn! See the context with the other material about that. A real danger then changing to outlines would negate that.

Doyle: works for me.

<shawn> drop action 1

<shadi> # Presentations and Training

<shadi> ## WAI Presentations

<shadi> ### Components

<shadi> ### Older Users

<shadi> ### ...

<shadi> ## Developing Presentations and Training

<shadi> ### Topics

<shadi> ### Presentation Outlines [or Example Presentations]

<shadi> ### Workshop Outline [or Example Training]

<shadi> ## Making Presentations Accessible ht

<shawn> ACTION: b4 pub: change <title>& <h1> to Topics for Web Accessibility Presentations and Training (nav : Topics) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/30-eo-minutes.html#action04]

<shawn> ACTION: change all references to "Topics" from "Modules" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/30-eo-minutes.html#action05]

Shawn: For shortening is outline, and the long one still accessibility outllines? Short name is presentation outlines, what is the H1?

Andrew: take the two words off the end.

Shawn: take example off there in the first sentence, and we don't need to emphasize anyway.

Wayne: what about presentation outline?

<Andrew> "Example Web Accessibility Presentations Outlines" or just "Web Accessibility Presentations Outlines" or just "presentation outlines" ??

Shawn: presentation outlines for the short but do we need to web accessibility presentations outlines.

Wayne: flip around use the word for?

Shawn: Web Accessibility Presentation Outline. I'm comfortable with leaving to editors discretion.

Wayne: I am comfortable with that.

Shawn: the advantage is the first word is bullet.

<shawn> b4 pub: change <title>& <h1> to Web Accessibility Presentation Outlines OR "Presentation Outlines for Web Acccessibility" (nav: Presentation Outlines)

<shawn> b4 pub: change <title>& <h1> to Web Accessibility Workshop Outline OR "Workshop Outline for Web Acccessibility" (nav: Workshop Outline)

Shawn: I'm updating in the changelog.

<shawn> ACTION: b4 pub: change <title>& <h1> to Web Accessibility Presentation Outlines OR "Presentation Outlines for Web Acccessibility" (nav: Presentation Outlines) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/30-eo-minutes.html#action06]

<shawn> ACTION: change <title>& <h1> to Web Accessibility Workshop Outline OR "Workshop Outline for Web Acccessibility" (nav: Workshop Outline) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/30-eo-minutes.html#action07]

<shadi> # Presentations and Training

<shadi> ## WAI Presentations

<shadi> ### Components

<shadi> ### Older Users

<shadi> ### ...

<shadi> ## Developing Presentations and Training

<shadi> ### Topics

<shadi> ### Presentation Outlines

<shadi> ### Workshop Outline

<shadi> ## Making Presentations Accessible

Shawn: Shadi put in easier to read outline of the proposed outline. Reads off the levels. The three things at the second level.

Wayne: looks good.

Andrew: yes

Shawn: we tried to limit wrapping, but it does.

Andrew: in the left nav would it add confusion, two types of trainings, presentations, workshops?

Shawn: only if you expand otherwise you wouldn't see it. There is a possibility presentations and trainings would come up to the top level. Enough people think of presentations as a single thing.

Andrew: yes, that was why I put in in the first place.

Shadi: drop trainings and just have presentations make sense.

Wayne: yes it does.

Shawn: developing a work shop, or you are training. Procuring a workshop, I need to get my developers trained, would you click develop presentations?

Shadi: under presentations and trainings?

Shawn: have a little bit longer and inclusive to get people to click on it.

Shadi: making presentations accessible would wrap just as well.

Andrew: that is a short title, yes.

<shadi> # Presentations and Training

<shadi> ## WAI Presentations

<shadi> ### Components

<shadi> ### Older Users

<shadi> ### ...

<shadi> ## Developing Presentations and Training

<shadi> ### Topics

<shadi> ### Presentation Outlines

<shadi> ### Workshop Outline

<shadi> ## Accessible Presentations

shawn: Have pointed to clearly in many places, change to accessible presentations? Comments?
... doesn't connect to the title quite as well.

Andrew: yes, if you think how to make presentation possible, but not advice, if you are looking for advice you might not go there.

Shawn: anything else at this level?
... (nothing) when you were looking through, it would sure be nice to change anything stand out to change? Something problematic before we post it?

Wayne: I haven't seen anything.

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/training/2009/example-workshop.html

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/training/2009/example-workshop.html

Shawn: the next to look at. In the example web accessibility training. Look at the session titles.

<shawn> Session titles - see the Schedule

Andrew: jump to the schedule. The sessions titles are fairly condensed.

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/training/2009/example-workshop.html#agenda

Andrew: reads through the examples in training one.
... sessions three days of sessions.

Wayne: a good course outline.

Liam: one question, a Q and A session built into the individual sessions?

Andrew: yes
... doesn't explicitly say, but the important points says to clarify the points with the audience.

Liam: keep the Q and A but deal with the other sessions questions.

Shawn: we should come up with the proper training term. Do an activity?
... some way to set it? there is an instructional design technique. What they have learned set in their heads.

Wayne: something summary and discussion.

Liam: difference between a Q and A at the end and a recapping. A Q and A can go off in all sorts of directions and have the Q and A followed by a recap.

Shawn: Andrew throughout the three days?

Andrew: Yes in each session. Like a question of how the earlier connects.

Shadi: a general Q and A at the end or a purpose or to summarize and repeat? More structured than an open session.

<shawn> ACTION: (can be later) change "Workshop review and Q&A" to something along the lines of recap of cirtical points, getting it to stick in your brain, like "firing" pottery, putting it all together, (maybe ask Heather what's the training term for this :) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/30-eo-minutes.html#action08]

Shawn: I like to have everyone write down what is the most important thing to get out of this workshop, or implement for their job, or the most surprising. Writing down gives them they learned in the last three days. Gives me a chance to summarize and comment on. to summarize the important points. Here are the points I want them to walk away with. A word for the end of the training session?

Wayne: like putting it all together.

Shawn: brainstorm or leave for editors to play with?

Doyle: give to editors.

Andrew: I'm getting the message there. I can work on.

Shawn: what else about session at the title level? When i read visual page design I stumbled on that.

Shadi: why?

Shawn: makes sense but the word visual???

Shadi: presentation and CSS?

Shawn: maybe yes.

Wayne: I think visual page design, with the semantics, and now with the CSS. The concept and meanings is not tied up in the visual part of the page. When you develop the page for the majority audience. I think that is the heart of it. You will do visual page design, and better do with CSS

Shawn: how about we say visual design instead of page design.

<shawn> Accessible visual design and CSS

Shawn: you have accessible page design and CSS. Accessibile visual design and CSS. That was what is missing. For consistency, instead of multi-media, change to accessible multi-media.

Andrew: I tried at one point, but the explaining breaks the design

Shadi: The issue why we didn't do the multi-media in the same style, there is so much more in multi-media, we wanted to explicitly say what we were doing in that session.

Shawn: in a workshop even if you didn't go into a lot of details but you would point to them.

Shadi: not in this session.

Shawn: when will you talk about other aspects of multi-media.

Shadi: some of that aspects go in scripting for example.

Shawn: which?

Shadi: accessible media players.

Shawn: if you were doing in session 4, sitting there for 45 minutes. You wouldn't mention that? Say something like we'll talk about in detail under scripting?

Shadi: depends on the audience, sometimes I know the organization would have multi-media I would give a half hour at most. In other sessions about lighting, speak into the camera. Understanding all that.

Shawn: the learning objectives are a little broad. I would vote for having a consistent there for accessible multi-meda at whatever level is appropriate for that session.

<shawn> action (can be later): Multimedia transcripts and captioning -> Accessible multimedia

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say visual design - zen flexibility

Wayne: I would think about the audience and I would shrink one section and the target audience is broad enough.

Andrew: fair enough.

shawn: going back to the visual design one. The fundamental point is some come from the print world. Used to control the exact shading the precise layout, the web is different to define a flexible web presentation. Can we include that point somehow under day 2 section two.

Wayne: under learning objectives? Ok

Shawn: I would like to have there somehow if people don't object.

Andrew: we have partly under text page layout.

<shadi> "discuss the adaptibility of the Web and differences to print media"

Shawn: under learning objectives?

<shawn> enbrace the flexibility of the web for visual design

Wayne: that might be a good idea. something about the web is not paper.

Andrew: yes

Doyle: nice idea

Wayne: a learning objective understanding the difference between the web and print media.

Shadi: trying to target content authors.

<shawn> ACTION: under Day 2 - Session 2 - see notes in minutes on adaptability, flexibility web design versus print - maybe learning objective &/or outline point [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/30-eo-minutes.html#action09]

Shawn: maybe both learn the objective and an outline point.

Wayne: where to fit for the authors.

Liam: visual design or perceptual design?

Shadi: the second one but nobody knows how to say that.

Liam: interesting little area to pursue.

<shawn> ACTION: skim minutes for actions that didn't get recorded here because shawn didn't type them correctly :-) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/30-eo-minutes.html#action10]

Doyle: I like that.

Wayne: the WCAG committee doesn't recognize you can change the visual design to x level. I think this is as good as we can do now. Not a generally or is out of the scope of most people.

Shawn: wouldn't you say the WCAG intended you to be able to change stuff, but not at a specific enough level?

Wayne: I don't think they intended such flexibility. Important to be there. In the design world for sighted people to think about another kinds of interfaces.

<shawn> percievable design and css

Liam: that is why people have understanding an alternative text. An aesthetic independent of the sight modality.

<Liam> there is an aesthetic that is independent of the sensory modality of perception

<shawn> wayne: plastic design

<Liam> wayne: plastic content

Liam: I like plastic design concept. The idea of stuff you can deform.

Wayne: rubber sheet geometry!

Liam: you need an aesthetic with a certain flexibility. Throw into a different word press and it still means the same thing.

<Liam> goo aesthetics

Shadi: I agree but I need to ask, is this the place to tackle the issue? Before publication?

Liam: I think these thoughts are interesting but should not delay publication anyway.

<shawn> PERCEPTUAL DESIGN

Shawn: we need to stop thinking in terms of visual design and think of perceptual design.

<Andrew> ... and flexible aesthetics

Shawn: What else for changing now? To look at for the next level of changes.

Liam: did we capture the bit about a committment to action?

Andrew: nice to put in. What do you come away with?

Wayne: this is really nice!!!
... I could teach this course. How I would stick into a three or four week web class. A good outline.

Shawn: what else for now? A discrete chunk?

Shadi: I think it is fine for now. The next stage to put online, with a few changes we discussed today. Then launch broader and more detailed from the group.

Shawn: one audience point you wanted to discuss?

Shadi: no, corporate make that more generic specific?

Andrew: use public relations or is that more organization specific. How to capture generically?

Shadi: I was thinking stakeholders there. Jargony term but better than more technical developers

Andrew: they are different from the marketing staff.

Shawn: swap around for all three days for web site developers, and day two more people, and one for everyone. Figuring out the different audiences. Give them a list of types of people those are.

Andrew: anyone with a responsibility for the web.

Shawn: even more.

Doyle: there would be a lot of staff that would not be directly involved.

<shadi> # Website developers and application programmers

<shadi> # Web authors and visual designers (day 1 & 2 only)

<shadi> # Managers and others involved with web (day 1 only)

Shawn: a market manager not directly responsible.

Doyle: someone with a disability might want to be a part of that.

Shawn: leave to editors discretion.

Doyle: Shadi's list works for me.

ShadI: I appreciate there are many with less direct roles but what is there about that is related to the presentation.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say need to include the blaa, blaas

Liam: front end engineers. How technically interested. Depends upon how interested they were.

Shawn: I think we need the list to be long. Ideally for day one. Anyone besides the janitor. Everyone to buy into accessibility. People pigeon hole it too much. To encourage more people to see that is their responsibility.

<Andrew> # Managers and others involved with the organisations web (day 1 only)

<shadi> ----

<shadi> # Website developers and application programmers

<shadi> # Web authors and visual designers (day 1 & 2)

<shadi> # Project managers and decision makers (day 1)

<shadi> # Anyone interested in web accessibility (day 1)

Wayne: when I look at all 23 campuses, on our campus, community relations, where web content is discussed. Very interesting where the web lives. In terms of broadness interesting.

Shawn: still need to have a list, and others involved in the web, pick the top few that common or often missed and include in there.

Andrew: marketing, corporate policy?

Shawn: standards conformance, get people to brainstorm who we would want to come, basically the point of the bullet think broadly about who might benefit from this. If these people attended.

<Andrew> ... legal and policy; coroporate comms, public relations; marketing dept; ...

Shadi: Yes, I am convinced. I suggest for now. When collect this input it will take awhile to come up , my suggestion first ...authors and visual designers in day two, anyone interested in web accessible as a compromise now?

<shawn> # Website developers and application programmers (day 1, 2, & 3)

<shawn> # Web authors and visual designers (day 1 & 2)

<shawn> # Project managers, public relations, [@@], and others (day 1)

Wayne: I think Sharron and I could come up with a good list right away. When you have very skilled clerical people, pretty much marketing, institutional community relations group, you have legal. When you pitch to an organization that you mean these people.
... if you just say web you will get developers and maybe their managers. The first time they send their web developers and managers. We have a first day where we concentrate on managers and content makers. Just web it will attract just techies.

Andrew: there is a general agreement to be inclusive. Until we put a list together are we happy to publish this, before it is finalized?

Wayne: I think publishing is a good idea.

<Andrew> ... community relations; standards development;

Shawn: I would like to have three bullets. This is a draft the last bullet be.

Shadi: I prefer to not have at at's. sometimes you need to have a specific audiences the three primary audiences you ought to have.

Andrew: I think a real key audience is the PR people who own the web.

Liam: and they need a good story.

<Andrew> oops - phone hung up of its own accord

Shadi: when someone puts together a training. Someone to address project managers, regardless of what department they sign the bills have them as a separate group.
... that is why we decided how we decided.

<shawn> # All 3 days: Website developers and application programmers

<shawn> # Days 1 and 2: Web authors and visual designers

<shawn> # Day 1: Project managers and decision makers; and others impacted by the website: public relations, marketing, policy and any others

Shadi: I'm not comparing who is more important but some doing trainings would look for who signs the bills. Project managers is pretty neutral from where they come.

Doyle: shawn's version sounds good to me.

Shadi: to have those three bullets there as Shawn suggested and then have a text of several people who would additionally benefit from the training.

<shawn> [Shawn notes we also need to address the "Target audience: " section for each Sesion description ]

Andrew: it can go on, but hopefully limited to three lines.

Shawn: define the target audience in three points. One is web site developer, two, three is the broad thing. A simple bullet point, simple heading dash, and a long list. Use the short phrase after that.

Shadi: I assume the others are not target audience. I don't mean they are not important.

Andrew: I was thinking you are quite right policiy makers and project managers.

Wayne: maybe project is tool small. I mean area manager or decision managers.

<shawn> area manager, executive staff, division manager

Andrew: managers and decision makers.

<shawn> decision influencers

Wayne: that would be good. Indicate that lots of managers need to come to that.

Shawn: include decision influencer.

Liam: no one would think of themselves as influencing. They are decision makers.

Shawn: we have some ideas, this does not be fixed by Monday. We want to keep at the top of list to do. I think we have a good idea for the next edit. If you have time Andrew, based on what settle in IRC.

Wayne: I noticed when we have all these audiences coming in, the ones who sent their technical managers move more slowly.

Liam: yes that is a strategic thing.

Wayne: might for a separate paper.

<shawn> ACTION: (b4 would be nice, but can be after) tweak "Target audience:" in Workshop page, see IRC/minutes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/30-eo-minutes.html#action11]

Shawn: or notes for a blog. Anything else?

Andrew: tidying up thank you.

Shawn: pages to look at next week? copy edit before an detailed look next week?

Shadi: I think the group could get started at looking at it.

Shawn: in any case we'll let you guys know. Editors may have more changes but any changes are welcome at this point. It is settled into significantly stable over all.

<Liam> good perceptual design :)

Andrew: thank you for the feedback today.

Wayne: I'll do the note clean up.
... my student file project, we are doing dynamic web stuff. They are doing WAI ARIA this week. They will turn out part of the grade to insert WAI ARIA, but not easy to teach right now. They are happy now. They think they are cool.

<shawn> w3c site uses this at http://www.w3.org/TR/#tr_Accessibility__All_

<shawn> also before & after demo

- DRAFT -

EOWG

30 Apr 2010

Attendees

Contents

Training Resource Suite - discuss final drafts

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output