IRC log of prov-xg on 2010-04-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:01 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/16-prov-xg-irc
14:53:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:53:03 [Zakim]
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14:53:05 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 98765
14:53:05 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
14:53:06 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference
14:53:06 [trackbot]
Date: 16 April 2010
14:53:11 [Yolanda]
Meeting: prov-xg
14:53:19 [Yolanda]
chair: Yolanda Gil
14:53:44 [ppinheir2]
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14:53:49 [Yolanda]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-prov/2010Apr/0011.html
14:54:38 [Yolanda]
Paolo: the slides are too big to make it in the mailing list, so just post the URL
14:54:45 [Yolanda]
I meant Paulo, sorry
14:55:29 [Yolanda]
zakim, who is here?
14:55:29 [Zakim]
INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has not yet started, Yolanda
14:55:30 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ppinheir2, Zakim, RRSAgent, Yolanda, ivan, trackbot
14:56:06 [ppinheir2]
PML presentation: http://trust.utep.edu/2010/PMLProvenance.ppt
14:56:43 [ppinheir2]
PML Presentation: http://trust.utep.edu/2010/PMLProvenance.pdf (PDF version in case someone cannot open the PPT version)
14:58:15 [olaf]
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14:58:30 [DeborahMcG]
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14:59:51 [DeborahMcG]
Hi
15:00:02 [Christine]
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15:00:29 [DeborahMcG]
I am hoping that the pml discussion can be the first of the 2 discussions planned today - will that work?
15:01:01 [Luc]
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15:02:32 [Yogesh]
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15:03:13 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:03:13 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:03:48 [pgroth]
getting some tweets
15:03:56 [Paolo]
it's also all over twitter :-)
15:04:15 [jun]
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15:06:00 [pgroth]
I'll do it
15:06:01 [Paolo]
ok I can do it
15:06:05 [Paolo]
oh, ok
15:06:09 [ppinheir2]
http://trust.utep.edu/2010/PMLProvenance.ppt
15:06:18 [pgroth]
Discussion about PML
15:06:20 [Yolanda]
scribe: pgroth
15:06:42 [Yolanda]
scribenick: pgroth
15:06:57 [Yolanda]
zakim: save agenda
15:07:20 [Yolanda]
zakim, who is here?
15:07:20 [Zakim]
INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has not yet started, Yolanda
15:07:21 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jun, Yogesh, Luc, Christine, olaf, Irini, Paolo, SamCoppens, pgroth, DeborahMcG, ppinheir2, Zakim, RRSAgent, Yolanda, ivan, trackbot
15:07:40 [pgroth]
Paulo: PML started in 2003 and was part of DAML
15:08:31 [pgroth]
Paulo: pml emerged for explaining theorem prover results
15:10:02 [pgroth]
Paulo: PML has expanded beyond theorem prover explanation generalized to provenance
15:12:37 [pgroth]
Slide 3
15:13:41 [pgroth]
Paulo: pml-p module meta-metadata: how do you annotate the trace with information
15:14:00 [pgroth]
Paulo: pml-p is used for provenance
15:14:12 [pgroth]
Slide 4
15:14:46 [ssahoo2]
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15:16:20 [pgroth]
Paulo: important point that PML provenance (PML-P) can be used with any string
15:16:27 [pgroth]
Paulo: not just logical sentences
15:16:34 [pgroth]
Slide 5
15:16:57 [pgroth]
Paulo: use terminology from proof theory, this may cause confusion
15:17:28 [pgroth]
Paulo: inference rules represent any information transformation
15:17:55 [pgroth]
Slide 6
15:18:28 [jcheney]
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15:18:36 [pgroth]
Example of PML to describe provenance of a gif
15:20:03 [pgroth]
Paulo: Justifications consist of multiple inference steps which contain information about the method applied to obtain results
15:20:42 [pgroth]
Paulo: OPM or PML may not be causality graphs (left to another discussion)
15:20:47 [pgroth]
Slide 7
15:21:08 [Yolanda]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:21:08 [Zakim]
sorry, Yolanda, I don't know what conference this is
15:21:28 [pgroth]
Paulo: Provenance needs to capture everything
15:21:28 [Yolanda]
Ivan: why does zakim not recognize the conference? we told him :)
15:21:39 [pgroth]
Slide 8
15:21:55 [pgroth]
Paulo: Provenance needs to also capture manual actions by people
15:22:50 [pgroth]
Slide 9
15:23:05 [pgroth]
Paulo: discussing Probe-It! PML provenance browser
15:23:50 [pgroth]
Slide 10: Going through example
15:25:25 [pgroth]
Paulo: By going through provenance, providing information that was lost to the user when looking at end products in this case an image
15:25:31 [pgroth]
Slide 11
15:25:45 [jcheney]
Can someone re-send the link to the slides? (I was late)
15:25:56 [pgroth]
http://trust.utep.edu/2010/PMLProvenance.ppt
15:26:05 [jcheney]
Thanks!
15:26:55 [pgroth]
Pointers to examples and tools for PML
15:27:21 [pgroth]
http://Inference-Web.org
15:27:26 [DeborahMcG]
from http://Inference-Web.org
15:27:26 [DeborahMcG]
one can also get to the publication list including the ones paulo sent out
15:28:49 [pgroth]
PML presentation done, questions on PML
15:29:05 [pgroth]
q+
15:29:26 [DeborahMcG]
q+
15:29:42 [Luc]
q+
15:29:54 [Yolanda]
q+
15:30:49 [pgroth]
paul: how can we align vocabularies given the misunderstanding with the logical proof vocabulary
15:31:23 [pgroth]
paulo: writing a technical report with this mapping now. sees a benefit in aligning the vocabularies
15:31:45 [pgroth]
q-
15:31:45 [pgroth]
q_
15:32:15 [pgroth]
deborah: requirements for pml come from a different community than opm
15:32:44 [pgroth]
deborah: alignment should be a priority for this group of pml plus opm
15:33:04 [pgroth]
deborah: bof meeting discussion about alignment
15:33:42 [pgroth]
luc: likes the idea of the tech report
15:34:00 [pgroth]
luc: were you able to do the mapping in pc3
15:34:10 [pgroth]
paulo: yes with limited restrictions
15:34:26 [pgroth]
luc: what about time? can you link dependencies and time?
15:34:31 [DeborahMcG]
there were two independent efforts using PML in the PC3 and both had solutions to the issue
15:35:18 [pgroth]
paulo: we do not enforce constraints but can specify it at different levels
15:36:12 [pgroth]
paulo: no restrictions on what you can write in pml, allow for inconsistencies
15:36:59 [pgroth]
luc: consistency check for causality and time is in opm and is well defined
15:37:21 [pgroth]
paulo: consistency check lies on top of pml, not within pml
15:38:26 [pgroth]
yolanda: missing from PML an articulation from PML about requirements
15:38:43 [pgroth]
yolanda: group would like to see requirements for inference from PML
15:39:38 [pgroth]
yolanda: have not captured use cases that reflect requirements for inference
15:39:54 [pgroth]
yolanda: PML group should share requirements
15:40:21 [pgroth]
yolanda: requirements as use cases
15:40:41 [pgroth]
paulo: should be consolidated as requirements
15:40:47 [DeborahMcG]
http://www.ksl.stanford.edu/KSL_Abstracts/KSL-04-03.html was the first paper that described requirements - not in use case form though.
15:41:14 [pgroth]
paulo: would nice to get some feedback from others
15:41:31 [DeborahMcG]
i am willing to do co-do a use case or a few.
15:41:41 [pgroth]
yolanda: justification and proof use cases would be nice
15:41:58 [pgroth]
Second topic: planning the state of the art
15:42:20 [pgroth]
yolanda: we've been going over technology
15:42:29 [pgroth]
yolanda: has some ideas in organization
15:42:51 [pgroth]
yolanda: task force idea from jun
15:43:07 [pgroth]
yolanda: go around the group and get ideas for organization
15:43:32 [pgroth]
yolanda: more linked to requirements document the better
15:43:43 [pgroth]
going around the call getting ideas
15:43:51 [ppinheir2]
I would like to thank the group for your feedback
15:44:33 [pgroth]
and contributions
15:44:53 [pgroth]
ssahoo2: agree with the proposal would like to be part of the management task force
15:45:19 [pgroth]
paulo: concern about these task force integration
15:45:38 [pgroth]
paulo: but to get things moving agrees
15:46:29 [SamCoppens]
q+
15:47:35 [pgroth]
paul: would like to see connection to technical and user requirements
15:47:58 [pgroth]
paul: contribute to the use part
15:48:16 [pgroth]
but what about requirements!
15:48:17 [pgroth]
:-)
15:48:28 [pgroth]
olaf: makes sense to me
15:48:35 [pgroth]
olaf: join the use task force
15:49:15 [pgroth]
jun: how to organize the meetings, every subgroup have a meeting each week
15:49:28 [koalie]
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15:49:29 [pgroth]
jun: interested in management or use
15:50:28 [Yolanda]
hi Coralie
15:50:38 [Yolanda]
can you see the history of the thread?
15:50:40 [Yolanda]
yes we still do
15:51:03 [Irini]
+1 for james
15:51:03 [koalie]
Zakim, what conferences?
15:51:03 [Zakim]
I see XML_SchemaWG()11:00AM, INC_PROVXG()11:00AM active
15:51:05 [Zakim]
also scheduled at this time are Team_(e-xs)13:30Z, Team_(cssf)14:57Z
15:51:05 [pgroth]
jcheney: another suggestion, thought the state of the art report would come from experts
15:51:22 [pgroth]
jcheney: what would it entail to be on management?
15:51:23 [Paolo]
+1 for James' proposal
15:51:26 [koalie]
Zakim, this is inc_provxg
15:51:26 [Zakim]
ok, koalie; that matches INC_PROVXG()11:00AM
15:51:28 [ppinheir2]
interested in joining the content task force
15:51:42 [pgroth]
jcheney: divide content by expertise
15:51:56 [koalie]
Zakim, who's making noise?
15:52:07 [Zakim]
koalie, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:52:17 [pgroth]
yolanda: preference not to split the topics by technology
15:53:04 [koalie]
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15:53:08 [Irini]
+q
15:53:16 [pgroth]
sam: ok with the task force division
15:53:27 [Yogesh]
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15:53:35 [pgroth]
sam: would be on the content or use task force
15:53:46 [pgroth]
Paolo?
15:54:23 [pgroth]
paolo: concerned that the task force structure to much splitting
15:54:38 [pgroth]
paolo: not sure he would want to commit to a particular group
15:55:30 [pgroth]
paolo: there are state of the art surveys already
15:55:34 [pgroth]
paolo: can we use those?
15:56:03 [pgroth]
luc: i don't understand the split between three task forces
15:56:09 [pgroth]
luc: what do we want to produce?
15:56:23 [pgroth]
luc: agree with paolo problem with integration
15:56:40 [pgroth]
luc: expertise in technologies and not in specific facets of provenance
15:57:22 [pgroth]
luc: what would be useful is a matrix: technologies | requirements
15:57:42 [pgroth]
luc: how does each technology match each requirements
15:57:51 [ppinheir2]
q+
15:58:12 [SamCoppens]
q-
15:58:46 [pgroth]
luc: division in task force is not very useful until we identify what we produce
15:58:58 [pgroth]
irini: agree with james, paolo and luc
15:59:24 [pgroth]
irini: cannot understand how dividing the task force on the dimensions will help
15:59:52 [pgroth]
irini: divide along expertise lines
16:01:06 [pgroth]
christine it's bad...
16:01:27 [Christine]
I'll type instead. Please continue conversation.
16:01:43 [Yolanda]
ok thanks
16:01:50 [Yogesh]
Wonder if I'm visible in the user list....got skipped when going round the table :)
16:02:05 [pgroth]
yogesh?
16:02:17 [pgroth]
Yolanda: worried about splitting the group
16:02:29 [Paolo]
@yogesh -- you weren't until a little while ago -- shout! :-)
16:02:41 [pgroth]
Yolanda: worried about not capturing the synergies
16:02:52 [ppinheir2]
i have a proposal
16:02:54 [pgroth]
Yolanda: structure along the requirements we had
16:03:15 [pgroth]
Yolanda: we have had a nice flow
16:03:32 [pgroth]
Yolanda: matrix technology vs. requirements
16:03:38 [pgroth]
is a good idea
16:04:14 [pgroth]
Yolanda: the reason to split the document is to divide the work
16:04:21 [pgroth]
Yolanda: we need to start writing and producing
16:04:36 [Christine]
Given that my background is law/policy, I am probably most useful helping to ensure that the report is accessible to people outside the provenance field, particularly regarding provenance use; our definition of provenance etc.
16:04:47 [Yogesh]
I like the splitup of the topics...But I'd like to get a better idea or even outline of what the 'state of the art' looks like...feel I'd fit into the 'management' taskforce
16:05:08 [pgroth]
Can we not have both
16:05:09 [pgroth]
?
16:05:36 [pgroth]
So organize by dimensions: but have contributions from experts
16:06:09 [Paolo]
hopefully we'll continue this on the list?
16:06:16 [pgroth]
+1
16:06:32 [pgroth]
Yolanda: cover this topic next week
16:07:01 [pgroth]
go with the mailing list I think
16:07:24 [ivan]
zakim, drop me
16:07:24 [Zakim]
Ivan is being disconnected
16:07:26 [Zakim]
-Ivan
16:07:27 [Zakim]
- +1.706.461.aahh
16:07:38 [Zakim]
-Yolanda
16:07:40 [Zakim]
- +1.915.747.aaaa
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- +1.540.449.aaee
16:07:41 [Zakim]
- +30281039aacc
16:07:42 [Zakim]
-??P18
16:07:43 [Zakim]
-Luc
16:07:44 [Zakim]
- +49.308.937.aadd
16:07:45 [Zakim]
- +41.22.807.aabb
16:07:45 [Zakim]
-??P10
16:07:47 [Zakim]
-??P14
16:07:49 [Zakim]
-SamCoppens
16:08:03 [pgroth]
rrsagent, set log public
16:08:10 [pgroth]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:08:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/16-prov-xg-minutes.html pgroth
16:08:22 [pgroth]
trackbot, end telcon
16:08:22 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:08:22 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +1.915.747.aaaa, Yolanda, SamCoppens, +41.22.807.aabb, +30281039aacc, Luc, +49.308.937.aadd, +1.540.449.aaee, +1.518.763.aaff, Ivan,
16:08:23 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:08:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/16-prov-xg-minutes.html trackbot
16:08:24 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:08:24 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
16:08:26 [Zakim]
... +1.862.659.aagg, +1.706.461.aahh