IRC log of aapi on 2010-03-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:02:37 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aapi
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-aapi-irc
15:02:48 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #aapi
15:02:55 [Andi]
zakim, this will be aapi
15:02:55 [Zakim]
ok, Andi, I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)10:00AM already started
15:03:01 [Andi]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:03:11 [Andi]
rrsagent, make log world
15:03:28 [Andi]
Scribe: Andi
15:03:36 [Andi]
Meeting: AAPI
15:06:35 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly
15:07:50 [Andi]
davidb, Cynthia and I are in the call. Are you coming?
15:07:59 [davidb]
yep! 1 sec
15:09:34 [Zakim]
+[Mozilla]
15:10:01 [davidb]
Zakim, Mozilla has David_Bolter
15:10:01 [Zakim]
+David_Bolter; got it
15:10:17 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
15:12:58 [Andi]
topic: frames/iframes
15:12:59 [Andi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#document-handling_frames
15:13:35 [davidb]
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7120
15:14:10 [davidb]
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7119
15:15:09 [cyns]
cyns has joined #aapi
15:15:40 [davidb]
I created frame tests here http://people.mozilla.com/~dbolter/frames/
15:15:58 [Andi]
some confusion over the terms "inner document accessible" and "outer document accessible"
15:16:06 [Andi]
CS: these seem to be FF terms
15:16:28 [Andi]
CS: frame node is not in the accessibility tree
15:16:44 [Andi]
CS: only the child document is in the accessibility tree
15:17:53 [Andi]
DB: in FF, for frame with no ARIA, FF does expose in accessibility tree
15:18:01 [Andi]
DB: if ARIA, will apply the ARIA to it
15:18:30 [Andi]
DB: in parent document, could set up relationships between the parts of the frame
15:18:55 [Andi]
CS: thinks IE would be resistant to change it but not as resistant as with aria-owns issue
15:19:06 [Andi]
DB: need web authors to tell us what they want
15:19:20 [Andi]
CS: if have ARIA, needs to be in accessibility tree for sure
15:19:29 [Andi]
CS: wonder if we can handle with author advice
15:19:53 [Andi]
CS: put a role on it if ....
15:20:15 [Andi]
CS: if the frame is important to the application, put a role on it
15:20:33 [Andi]
CS: having the frame as opposed to the document, is not always important
15:20:44 [Andi]
DB: yes, this could be a best practice
15:21:01 [Andi]
DB: in order to spend time on this, we need to know who wants us to spend time on it
15:21:23 [Andi]
DB: need to run FF and IE side by side, look at trees and see how they work with AT
15:21:33 [Andi]
DB: have a test file we could use
15:21:49 [Andi]
CS: maybe we can do this at the F2F
15:23:28 [davidb]
http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-trunk/
15:23:44 [davidb]
http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-trunk/firefox-3.7a3pre.en-US.win32.zip
15:24:07 [davidb]
http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-trunk/firefox-3.7a3pre.en-US.win32.installer.exe
15:25:05 [davidb]
release: http://www.mozilla.com/products/download.html?product=firefox-3.6&os=osx&lang=en-US
15:25:19 [davidb]
s/release:/release
15:25:46 [davidb]
oops
15:25:51 [davidb]
http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/personal.html
15:28:16 [Andi]
AS: need to figure out what's different about computing names and descriptions for frames/iframes
15:28:32 [Andi]
CS: there's the child document that makes it different
15:28:44 [Andi]
CS: don't think there's anything different about computing the name
15:29:01 [Andi]
CS: there is a name attribute that acts like title
15:30:32 [Andi]
DB: there are some unique things about inner document accessible
15:31:09 [Andi]
CS: think we're talking about the accessibility tree node that corresponds to the frame or iframe element vs. the accessibility tree node that corresponds to the document that is in the frame or iframe
15:31:14 [Andi]
DB: wonder if S
15:31:36 [Andi]
s/wonder if S/wonder if Steve could do this testing for us/
15:31:56 [Andi]
CS: he'll be at the F2F but not sure if he'll have his testing environment with him
15:32:14 [Andi]
CS: nothing special about the outer frame - says so in the document
15:32:58 [Andi]
CS: could say user agents may/should expose the frame element as an accessibility tree node
15:33:17 [Andi]
CS: role would be pane and name would be calculated normally
15:33:42 [Andi]
CS: inner document has role of pane? it's in the bug - think that's what IE does
15:34:00 [Andi]
treatment of frame or iframe element could go in the mapping table
15:34:53 [Andi]
AS: but we don't have HTML elements in the mapping table - only WAI-ARIA stuff
15:35:23 [Andi]
DB: in FF, inner document name is URL if frame has no name
15:35:40 [Andi]
DB: in FF, if frame does have a name, gets inherited by inner document
15:35:49 [Andi]
CS: in IE, use title of the inner document
15:35:56 [Andi]
DB: not clear what AT wants
15:36:16 [Andi]
CS: could ask AT people
15:36:22 [Andi]
DB: has contacts, will ask
15:36:33 [Andi]
CS: if they don't care, we should take it out
15:37:17 [Andi]
AS: seems like this is a problem for authors to make it work in both FF and IE
15:37:46 [Andi]
CS: can you put a labeledby on the body tag?
15:38:26 [Andi]
CS: in IE, would create a node if labeldby is on it
15:38:49 [Andi]
CS: just need to try it and see how it works
15:39:23 [Andi]
DB: 3rd case in test suite has labeledby
15:39:30 [Andi]
s/labeldby/labeledby/
15:39:49 [Andi]
action: Cynthia to test
15:40:14 [Andi]
CS: first section about outer document accessible seems right
15:40:42 [Andi]
Cynthia will look at computing the accessible name and description
15:40:48 [Andi]
for inner document accessible
15:41:39 [Andi]
CS: "outer document accessible" is "accessibility node for frame elements"
15:41:56 [Andi]
CS: "inner document accessible" is "accessibility node for contained documents"
15:43:01 [Andi]
CS: do these attributes still exist? container-live, container-atomic, container-relevant, and container-busy
15:43:29 [Andi]
DB: these are object attributes, not ARIA attributes
15:46:28 [Andi]
AS: in the state/property mapping table, these are already mapped from the relevant aria properties
15:46:53 [Andi]
DB: allows author of root document to say whether things in the iframe are going to be a live region
15:47:28 [Andi]
DB: gives document author control over what is spoken
15:47:34 [Andi]
CS: scenario should be described here
15:54:53 [davidb]
DB: this is basically about a mashup scenario. where it is usually the nearest parent container with aria-live, aria-atomic, aria-relevant, and aria-busy that decides what object attribute appears on the child for container-live, container-atomic, container-relevant, and container-busy. in the case of a subdocument (via e.g. iframe) the iframe ria-live, aria-atomic, aria-relevant, and aria-busy overrides
15:55:12 [davidb]
DB: this allows the author of the root document to control what gets spoken, for example.
15:56:35 [davidb]
DB: they might include an otherwise polite chat program in an iframe and make it assertive
15:59:15 [Zakim]
-[Mozilla]
15:59:17 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
15:59:18 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
15:59:20 [Zakim]
-Andi_Snow_Weaver
15:59:20 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(AAPI)10:00AM has ended
15:59:22 [Zakim]
Attendees were Andi_Snow_Weaver, Cynthia_Shelly, David_Bolter, Michael_Cooper
16:04:10 [Andi]
zakim, bye
16:04:10 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aapi
16:04:17 [Andi]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-aapi-minutes.html Andi
16:16:19 [Andi]
rrsagent, bye
16:16:19 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-aapi-actions.rdf :
16:16:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Cynthia to test [1]
16:16:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-aapi-irc#T15-39-49