15:02:37 RRSAgent has joined #aapi 15:02:37 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-aapi-irc 15:02:48 Zakim has joined #aapi 15:02:55 zakim, this will be aapi 15:02:55 ok, Andi, I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)10:00AM already started 15:03:01 rrsagent, make logs public 15:03:11 rrsagent, make log world 15:03:28 Scribe: Andi 15:03:36 Meeting: AAPI 15:06:35 +Cynthia_Shelly 15:07:50 davidb, Cynthia and I are in the call. Are you coming? 15:07:59 yep! 1 sec 15:09:34 +[Mozilla] 15:10:01 Zakim, Mozilla has David_Bolter 15:10:01 +David_Bolter; got it 15:10:17 +Michael_Cooper 15:12:58 topic: frames/iframes 15:12:59 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#document-handling_frames 15:13:35 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7120 15:14:10 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7119 15:15:09 cyns has joined #aapi 15:15:40 I created frame tests here http://people.mozilla.com/~dbolter/frames/ 15:15:58 some confusion over the terms "inner document accessible" and "outer document accessible" 15:16:06 CS: these seem to be FF terms 15:16:28 CS: frame node is not in the accessibility tree 15:16:44 CS: only the child document is in the accessibility tree 15:17:53 DB: in FF, for frame with no ARIA, FF does expose in accessibility tree 15:18:01 DB: if ARIA, will apply the ARIA to it 15:18:30 DB: in parent document, could set up relationships between the parts of the frame 15:18:55 CS: thinks IE would be resistant to change it but not as resistant as with aria-owns issue 15:19:06 DB: need web authors to tell us what they want 15:19:20 CS: if have ARIA, needs to be in accessibility tree for sure 15:19:29 CS: wonder if we can handle with author advice 15:19:53 CS: put a role on it if .... 15:20:15 CS: if the frame is important to the application, put a role on it 15:20:33 CS: having the frame as opposed to the document, is not always important 15:20:44 DB: yes, this could be a best practice 15:21:01 DB: in order to spend time on this, we need to know who wants us to spend time on it 15:21:23 DB: need to run FF and IE side by side, look at trees and see how they work with AT 15:21:33 DB: have a test file we could use 15:21:49 CS: maybe we can do this at the F2F 15:23:28 http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-trunk/ 15:23:44 http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-trunk/firefox-3.7a3pre.en-US.win32.zip 15:24:07 http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-trunk/firefox-3.7a3pre.en-US.win32.installer.exe 15:25:05 release: http://www.mozilla.com/products/download.html?product=firefox-3.6&os=osx&lang=en-US 15:25:19 s/release:/release 15:25:46 oops 15:25:51 http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/personal.html 15:28:16 AS: need to figure out what's different about computing names and descriptions for frames/iframes 15:28:32 CS: there's the child document that makes it different 15:28:44 CS: don't think there's anything different about computing the name 15:29:01 CS: there is a name attribute that acts like title 15:30:32 DB: there are some unique things about inner document accessible 15:31:09 CS: think we're talking about the accessibility tree node that corresponds to the frame or iframe element vs. the accessibility tree node that corresponds to the document that is in the frame or iframe 15:31:14 DB: wonder if S 15:31:36 s/wonder if S/wonder if Steve could do this testing for us/ 15:31:56 CS: he'll be at the F2F but not sure if he'll have his testing environment with him 15:32:14 CS: nothing special about the outer frame - says so in the document 15:32:58 CS: could say user agents may/should expose the frame element as an accessibility tree node 15:33:17 CS: role would be pane and name would be calculated normally 15:33:42 CS: inner document has role of pane? it's in the bug - think that's what IE does 15:34:00 treatment of frame or iframe element could go in the mapping table 15:34:53 AS: but we don't have HTML elements in the mapping table - only WAI-ARIA stuff 15:35:23 DB: in FF, inner document name is URL if frame has no name 15:35:40 DB: in FF, if frame does have a name, gets inherited by inner document 15:35:49 CS: in IE, use title of the inner document 15:35:56 DB: not clear what AT wants 15:36:16 CS: could ask AT people 15:36:22 DB: has contacts, will ask 15:36:33 CS: if they don't care, we should take it out 15:37:17 AS: seems like this is a problem for authors to make it work in both FF and IE 15:37:46 CS: can you put a labeledby on the body tag? 15:38:26 CS: in IE, would create a node if labeldby is on it 15:38:49 CS: just need to try it and see how it works 15:39:23 DB: 3rd case in test suite has labeledby 15:39:30 s/labeldby/labeledby/ 15:39:49 action: Cynthia to test 15:40:14 CS: first section about outer document accessible seems right 15:40:42 Cynthia will look at computing the accessible name and description 15:40:48 for inner document accessible 15:41:39 CS: "outer document accessible" is "accessibility node for frame elements" 15:41:56 CS: "inner document accessible" is "accessibility node for contained documents" 15:43:01 CS: do these attributes still exist? container-live, container-atomic, container-relevant, and container-busy 15:43:29 DB: these are object attributes, not ARIA attributes 15:46:28 AS: in the state/property mapping table, these are already mapped from the relevant aria properties 15:46:53 DB: allows author of root document to say whether things in the iframe are going to be a live region 15:47:28 DB: gives document author control over what is spoken 15:47:34 CS: scenario should be described here 15:54:53 DB: this is basically about a mashup scenario. where it is usually the nearest parent container with aria-live, aria-atomic, aria-relevant, and aria-busy that decides what object attribute appears on the child for container-live, container-atomic, container-relevant, and container-busy. in the case of a subdocument (via e.g. iframe) the iframe ria-live, aria-atomic, aria-relevant, and aria-busy overrides 15:55:12 DB: this allows the author of the root document to control what gets spoken, for example. 15:56:35 DB: they might include an otherwise polite chat program in an iframe and make it assertive 15:59:15 -[Mozilla] 15:59:17 -Cynthia_Shelly 15:59:18 -Michael_Cooper 15:59:20 -Andi_Snow_Weaver 15:59:20 WAI_PFWG(AAPI)10:00AM has ended 15:59:22 Attendees were Andi_Snow_Weaver, Cynthia_Shelly, David_Bolter, Michael_Cooper 16:04:10 zakim, bye 16:04:10 Zakim has left #aapi 16:04:17 rrsagent, make minutes 16:04:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-aapi-minutes.html Andi 16:16:19 rrsagent, bye 16:16:19 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-aapi-actions.rdf : 16:16:19 ACTION: Cynthia to test [1] 16:16:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-aapi-irc#T15-39-49