IRC log of aapi on 2010-03-09
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 15:02:37 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #aapi
- 15:02:37 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-aapi-irc
- 15:02:48 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #aapi
- 15:02:55 [Andi]
- zakim, this will be aapi
- 15:02:55 [Zakim]
- ok, Andi, I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)10:00AM already started
- 15:03:01 [Andi]
- rrsagent, make logs public
- 15:03:11 [Andi]
- rrsagent, make log world
- 15:03:28 [Andi]
- Scribe: Andi
- 15:03:36 [Andi]
- Meeting: AAPI
- 15:06:35 [Zakim]
- +Cynthia_Shelly
- 15:07:50 [Andi]
- davidb, Cynthia and I are in the call. Are you coming?
- 15:07:59 [davidb]
- yep! 1 sec
- 15:09:34 [Zakim]
- +[Mozilla]
- 15:10:01 [davidb]
- Zakim, Mozilla has David_Bolter
- 15:10:01 [Zakim]
- +David_Bolter; got it
- 15:10:17 [Zakim]
- +Michael_Cooper
- 15:12:58 [Andi]
- topic: frames/iframes
- 15:12:59 [Andi]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#document-handling_frames
- 15:13:35 [davidb]
- http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7120
- 15:14:10 [davidb]
- http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7119
- 15:15:09 [cyns]
- cyns has joined #aapi
- 15:15:40 [davidb]
- I created frame tests here http://people.mozilla.com/~dbolter/frames/
- 15:15:58 [Andi]
- some confusion over the terms "inner document accessible" and "outer document accessible"
- 15:16:06 [Andi]
- CS: these seem to be FF terms
- 15:16:28 [Andi]
- CS: frame node is not in the accessibility tree
- 15:16:44 [Andi]
- CS: only the child document is in the accessibility tree
- 15:17:53 [Andi]
- DB: in FF, for frame with no ARIA, FF does expose in accessibility tree
- 15:18:01 [Andi]
- DB: if ARIA, will apply the ARIA to it
- 15:18:30 [Andi]
- DB: in parent document, could set up relationships between the parts of the frame
- 15:18:55 [Andi]
- CS: thinks IE would be resistant to change it but not as resistant as with aria-owns issue
- 15:19:06 [Andi]
- DB: need web authors to tell us what they want
- 15:19:20 [Andi]
- CS: if have ARIA, needs to be in accessibility tree for sure
- 15:19:29 [Andi]
- CS: wonder if we can handle with author advice
- 15:19:53 [Andi]
- CS: put a role on it if ....
- 15:20:15 [Andi]
- CS: if the frame is important to the application, put a role on it
- 15:20:33 [Andi]
- CS: having the frame as opposed to the document, is not always important
- 15:20:44 [Andi]
- DB: yes, this could be a best practice
- 15:21:01 [Andi]
- DB: in order to spend time on this, we need to know who wants us to spend time on it
- 15:21:23 [Andi]
- DB: need to run FF and IE side by side, look at trees and see how they work with AT
- 15:21:33 [Andi]
- DB: have a test file we could use
- 15:21:49 [Andi]
- CS: maybe we can do this at the F2F
- 15:23:28 [davidb]
- http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-trunk/
- 15:23:44 [davidb]
- http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-trunk/firefox-3.7a3pre.en-US.win32.zip
- 15:24:07 [davidb]
- http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-trunk/firefox-3.7a3pre.en-US.win32.installer.exe
- 15:25:05 [davidb]
- release: http://www.mozilla.com/products/download.html?product=firefox-3.6&os=osx&lang=en-US
- 15:25:19 [davidb]
- s/release:/release
- 15:25:46 [davidb]
- oops
- 15:25:51 [davidb]
- http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/personal.html
- 15:28:16 [Andi]
- AS: need to figure out what's different about computing names and descriptions for frames/iframes
- 15:28:32 [Andi]
- CS: there's the child document that makes it different
- 15:28:44 [Andi]
- CS: don't think there's anything different about computing the name
- 15:29:01 [Andi]
- CS: there is a name attribute that acts like title
- 15:30:32 [Andi]
- DB: there are some unique things about inner document accessible
- 15:31:09 [Andi]
- CS: think we're talking about the accessibility tree node that corresponds to the frame or iframe element vs. the accessibility tree node that corresponds to the document that is in the frame or iframe
- 15:31:14 [Andi]
- DB: wonder if S
- 15:31:36 [Andi]
- s/wonder if S/wonder if Steve could do this testing for us/
- 15:31:56 [Andi]
- CS: he'll be at the F2F but not sure if he'll have his testing environment with him
- 15:32:14 [Andi]
- CS: nothing special about the outer frame - says so in the document
- 15:32:58 [Andi]
- CS: could say user agents may/should expose the frame element as an accessibility tree node
- 15:33:17 [Andi]
- CS: role would be pane and name would be calculated normally
- 15:33:42 [Andi]
- CS: inner document has role of pane? it's in the bug - think that's what IE does
- 15:34:00 [Andi]
- treatment of frame or iframe element could go in the mapping table
- 15:34:53 [Andi]
- AS: but we don't have HTML elements in the mapping table - only WAI-ARIA stuff
- 15:35:23 [Andi]
- DB: in FF, inner document name is URL if frame has no name
- 15:35:40 [Andi]
- DB: in FF, if frame does have a name, gets inherited by inner document
- 15:35:49 [Andi]
- CS: in IE, use title of the inner document
- 15:35:56 [Andi]
- DB: not clear what AT wants
- 15:36:16 [Andi]
- CS: could ask AT people
- 15:36:22 [Andi]
- DB: has contacts, will ask
- 15:36:33 [Andi]
- CS: if they don't care, we should take it out
- 15:37:17 [Andi]
- AS: seems like this is a problem for authors to make it work in both FF and IE
- 15:37:46 [Andi]
- CS: can you put a labeledby on the body tag?
- 15:38:26 [Andi]
- CS: in IE, would create a node if labeldby is on it
- 15:38:49 [Andi]
- CS: just need to try it and see how it works
- 15:39:23 [Andi]
- DB: 3rd case in test suite has labeledby
- 15:39:30 [Andi]
- s/labeldby/labeledby/
- 15:39:49 [Andi]
- action: Cynthia to test
- 15:40:14 [Andi]
- CS: first section about outer document accessible seems right
- 15:40:42 [Andi]
- Cynthia will look at computing the accessible name and description
- 15:40:48 [Andi]
- for inner document accessible
- 15:41:39 [Andi]
- CS: "outer document accessible" is "accessibility node for frame elements"
- 15:41:56 [Andi]
- CS: "inner document accessible" is "accessibility node for contained documents"
- 15:43:01 [Andi]
- CS: do these attributes still exist? container-live, container-atomic, container-relevant, and container-busy
- 15:43:29 [Andi]
- DB: these are object attributes, not ARIA attributes
- 15:46:28 [Andi]
- AS: in the state/property mapping table, these are already mapped from the relevant aria properties
- 15:46:53 [Andi]
- DB: allows author of root document to say whether things in the iframe are going to be a live region
- 15:47:28 [Andi]
- DB: gives document author control over what is spoken
- 15:47:34 [Andi]
- CS: scenario should be described here
- 15:54:53 [davidb]
- DB: this is basically about a mashup scenario. where it is usually the nearest parent container with aria-live, aria-atomic, aria-relevant, and aria-busy that decides what object attribute appears on the child for container-live, container-atomic, container-relevant, and container-busy. in the case of a subdocument (via e.g. iframe) the iframe ria-live, aria-atomic, aria-relevant, and aria-busy overrides
- 15:55:12 [davidb]
- DB: this allows the author of the root document to control what gets spoken, for example.
- 15:56:35 [davidb]
- DB: they might include an otherwise polite chat program in an iframe and make it assertive
- 15:59:15 [Zakim]
- -[Mozilla]
- 15:59:17 [Zakim]
- -Cynthia_Shelly
- 15:59:18 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 15:59:20 [Zakim]
- -Andi_Snow_Weaver
- 15:59:20 [Zakim]
- WAI_PFWG(AAPI)10:00AM has ended
- 15:59:22 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Andi_Snow_Weaver, Cynthia_Shelly, David_Bolter, Michael_Cooper
- 16:04:10 [Andi]
- zakim, bye
- 16:04:10 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #aapi
- 16:04:17 [Andi]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:04:17 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-aapi-minutes.html Andi
- 16:16:19 [Andi]
- rrsagent, bye
- 16:16:19 [RRSAgent]
- I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-aapi-actions.rdf :
- 16:16:19 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Cynthia to test [1]
- 16:16:19 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-aapi-irc#T15-39-49