17:00:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #RDB2RDF
17:00:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/02-RDB2RDF-irc
17:00:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
17:00:51 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #RDB2RDF
17:00:53 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
17:00:53 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start now
17:00:54 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
17:00:54 <trackbot> Date: 02 February 2010
17:00:57 <mhausenblas> Chair: Ahmed
17:01:02 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Feb/0000.html
17:01:07 <mhausenblas> Scribenick: mhausenblas
17:01:11 <mhausenblas> Topic: Admin
17:01:12 <angela_UNITN> angela_UNITN has joined #RDB2RDF
17:01:19 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
17:01:19 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has not yet started, MacTed
17:01:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see angela_UNITN, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, Ahmed, Seema, Ashok, BenSzekely, mdean, nunolopes, MacTed, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
17:01:27 <MacTed> Zakim, this is 7322733
17:01:29 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM
17:01:31 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
17:01:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, hhalpin, OpenLink_Software
17:01:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see angela_UNITN, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, Ahmed, Seema, Ashok, BenSzekely, mdean, nunolopes, MacTed, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
17:01:44 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
17:01:46 <Zakim> + +1.617.306.aaaa
17:01:47 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
17:01:50 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
17:01:50 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericp-office
17:01:52 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
17:01:56 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
17:02:00 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
17:02:00 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
17:02:06 <Zakim> +Ericp
17:02:23 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
17:02:25 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Marcelo
17:02:36 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Li Ma
17:02:48 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Harry
17:02:49 <Zakim> + +1.512.471.aabb
17:02:56 <soeren> soeren has joined #RDB2RDF
17:03:00 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aabb is juansequeda 
17:03:05 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
17:03:07 <Zakim> +juansequeda; got it
17:03:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, hhalpin, MacTed (muted), +1.617.306.aaaa, mhausenblas, Ericp, Ashok_Malhotra, juansequeda
17:03:14 <mhausenblas> Zakim, cygri  is  with mhausenblas
17:03:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see soeren, cygri, angela_UNITN, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, Ahmed, Seema, Ashok, BenSzekely, mdean, nunolopes, MacTed, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
17:03:29 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
17:03:31 <Zakim> + +039046188aacc
17:03:31 <BenSzekely> +1.617.306.aaaa is me
17:03:37 <Zakim> + +49.322.22.aadd
17:03:38 <nunolopes> Zakim, nunolopes is with mhausenblas
17:03:51 <Zakim> +nunolopes; got it
17:03:56 <soeren> zakim, aadd is me
17:04:03 <Zakim> +soeren; got it
17:04:13 <angela_UNITN> aacc is me
17:04:19 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
17:04:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, hhalpin, MacTed (muted), +1.617.306.aaaa, mhausenblas, Ericp, Ashok_Malhotra, juansequeda, +039046188aacc, soeren
17:04:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see soeren, cygri, angela_UNITN, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, Ahmed, Seema, Ashok, BenSzekely, mdean, nunolopes, MacTed, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
17:04:24 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri, nunolopes
17:05:44 <mhausenblas> Ahmed?
17:06:45 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
17:06:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, hhalpin, MacTed (muted), +1.617.306.aaaa, mhausenblas, Ericp, Ashok_Malhotra, juansequeda, +039046188aacc, soeren
17:06:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see soeren, cygri, angela_UNITN, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, Ahmed, Seema, Ashok, BenSzekely, mdean, nunolopes, MacTed, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
17:06:50 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri, nunolopes
17:07:44 <BenSzekely> *4
17:09:37 <MacTed> Zakim, who's making noise
17:09:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's making noise', MacTed
17:09:44 <MacTed> Zakim, who's making noise?
17:09:55 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P4 (37%), +039046188aacc (20%), +1.617.306.aaaa (85%)
17:11:00 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: accept minutes of previous telecon http://www.w3.org/2010/01/26-RDB2RDF-minutes.html
17:11:23 <ericP> +1
17:11:26 <soeren> +1
17:11:34 <mhausenblas> RESOLUTION: accept minutes of previous telecon http://www.w3.org/2010/01/26-RDB2RDF-minutes.html
17:12:37 <juansequeda> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/GeneratedSQL
17:12:40 <juansequeda> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/PotentialSQLIssues
17:13:03 <ericP> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HCLSIG/RDB2RDF_Use_Cases
17:15:43 <mhausenblas> Topic: work planning
17:16:08 <mhausenblas> ericP: how do we communicate what a mapping does
17:16:24 <mhausenblas> ... here is the input data in relational form and here is the RDF
17:17:01 <mhausenblas> ... so we want to pick a fairly neutral SQL and as an output a Turtle graph
17:17:06 <mhausenblas> ... no NG for now
17:17:51 <mhausenblas> Ahmed: why not use RDF/XML for the output?
17:17:59 <mhausenblas> ericP: maybe Turtle is easier
17:18:08 <mhausenblas> ... for manual editing/reviewing
17:18:36 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:18:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/02-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:18:43 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, make record public
17:19:00 <mhausenblas> ericP: put the tabular, SQL form into the Wiki
17:19:27 <mhausenblas> soeren: for what kind of data you mean SQL? for the TC, etc?
17:21:33 <mhausenblas> q+ to ask about the focus
17:21:50 <mhausenblas> ack me
17:21:50 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask about the focus
17:22:00 <ericP> INSERT INTO People (id, name) VALUES (18, "Bob"), (23, "Sue")
17:23:57 <mhausenblas> ericP: I'm trying to set up a framework to communicate between our TF and HCLS
17:25:03 <mhausenblas> soeren: should be called relational-annotation approach
17:26:54 <mhausenblas> Michael: I see two fundamental approaches - SQL-based mapping and dedicated-language-based mapping
17:27:43 <cygri> q+
17:27:53 <angela> angela has joined #RDB2RDF
17:28:45 <mhausenblas> ack cygri
17:28:58 <juansequeda> q+ 
17:29:22 <mhausenblas> cygri: I'd argue that the relational-annotation approach doesn't work for complex cases without using SQL views
17:30:03 <mhausenblas> soeren: a more direct approach like ericP's might perform better 
17:30:17 <mhausenblas> ... without domain-mappings
17:32:32 <mhausenblas> cygri: relational-annotation approach will require schema modification IMO
17:33:34 <mhausenblas> ... if one uses relational-annotation the without schema modification, the efficiency is very bad at least on MySQL
17:34:01 <mhausenblas> ... this leads to a big problem
17:34:02 <soeren> q+
17:34:12 <mhausenblas> ... we hence need to talk about performance as well
17:34:15 <mhausenblas> queue?
17:35:21 <ericP> cygri's was talking about recent contributions to http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/PotentialSQLIssues (i believe)
17:35:49 <mhausenblas> soeren: performance will drop once you want a domain mapping
17:36:31 <mhausenblas> ack juansequeda 
17:36:48 <mhausenblas> juansequeda: we do need two groups
17:36:57 <mhausenblas> ... question is where the optimisation is done
17:37:29 <mhausenblas> ... in Ultrawrap we change the scheme and let the engine do the rest
17:37:40 <mhausenblas> queue?
17:37:52 <ericP> i'm not convinced that the "schema-less" queries need to be pre-optimized any more than if they do it on the SQL side
17:37:54 <soeren> -q
17:38:03 <Seema> q+
17:38:44 <mhausenblas> ack Seema 
17:39:13 <mhausenblas> Seema: so we have two groups? one modify schema and other non-modify schema?
17:39:14 <ericP> +1 to Seema's characterization
17:39:25 <ericP> at least, that's how i understand it
17:39:42 <mhausenblas> cygri: seems that people think along different lines
17:40:05 <mhausenblas> ... schema-modify vs. non, optimising in the mapping vs. not, etc
17:40:27 <mhausenblas> ... personally I think it doesn't matter. we will end up in two groups
17:40:37 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:40:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/02-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:41:02 <ericP> i think that the distinction based on the language of the rule body is the least controversion
17:41:17 <ericP> s/controversion/controversial/
17:41:44 <mhausenblas> cygri: we should not focus on the question of schema-modify, matter of performance
17:41:58 <mhausenblas> ... rather focus on where the optimisation occurs
17:42:44 <mhausenblas> juansequeda: R2RML is a mapping language so should be independent where the optimisation is done
17:43:08 <mhausenblas> cygri: if done with SQL, one would naturally do the optimisation in the RDBMS
17:43:28 <mhausenblas> ... if done outside, better have something which is easy to parse
17:43:29 <Ashok> Q+
17:43:37 <mhausenblas> ack Ashok 
17:43:40 <ericP> q+ to characterize one language as an RDF language
17:44:02 <mhausenblas> Ashok: cygri, why optimisation focus? 
17:44:24 <mhausenblas> ... no need to duplicate the work done in the past 30y
17:44:39 <mhausenblas> cygri: in case of MySQl, for instance this is a problem
17:45:07 <ericP> q-
17:45:13 <mhausenblas> Ahmed: we come from the use cases
17:45:35 <mhausenblas> ... there are cases where it is not possible to change the schema
17:45:39 <mhausenblas> queue?
17:46:40 <mhausenblas> Ahmed: any mapping language we come up with needs to support all use cases
17:47:32 <mhausenblas> Ashok: my question is simply - why are we speaking about changing the schema?
17:47:41 <mhausenblas> Ahmed: because of the views
17:48:04 <mhausenblas> Ashok: so you're talking about creating views. IMO this is not changing the schema
17:48:18 <mhausenblas> Ahmed: well, maybe read-only, but still a change
17:48:39 <mhausenblas> Ahmed: we have such scenarios in-house
17:48:52 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:48:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/02-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:49:11 <mhausenblas> Ashok: but the views don't need to be stored, just executed, right?
17:49:16 <mhausenblas> Ahmed: correct
17:49:40 <mhausenblas> ... but some engines, such as MySQL have issues with it
17:49:48 <mhausenblas> queue
17:49:51 <mhausenblas> queue?
17:50:08 <mhausenblas> cygri: agree, that was a nice summary
17:50:21 <mhausenblas> cygri: re issues, see http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/PotentialSQLIssues
17:50:37 <mhausenblas> ... has examples in there where we have problems
17:50:59 <mhausenblas> Ahmed: if MySQL is limited re this, we might need another approach
17:51:02 <ericP> q?
17:52:02 <mhausenblas> juansequeda: SQLServer has no problem with it
17:52:56 <mhausenblas> cygri: at least for D2RQ it is true that MySQL is very often used
17:53:11 <mhausenblas> ... so needs to work with it reasonable well
17:53:51 <mhausenblas> cygri: as long as I can rewrite the query myself to deal with the specific weaknesses of the target
17:54:01 <mhausenblas> ... I guess it's doable
17:54:12 <ericP> cygri, wouldn't it be easier in the long run to fix the database's optimizer? (half joking)
17:54:27 <mhausenblas> cygri:  but shouldn't show up in the mapping lanuage
17:54:52 <mhausenblas> ... in D2RQ the mapping is broken down onto class/prop level
17:54:57 <juansequeda> ericP: we told our students to implement merge join for mysql
17:55:25 <ericP> cool, nice to see open source improvements
17:56:15 <juansequeda> oops, i meant coma
17:56:32 <mhausenblas> s/ericP: we /ericP, we
17:56:38 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:56:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/02-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:57:00 <mhausenblas> Ahmed: gotta go soon
17:57:17 <mhausenblas> ... continue next week
17:57:55 <mhausenblas> [adjourned]
17:57:57 <Zakim> -??P4
17:57:59 <Zakim> -hhalpin
17:58:00 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
17:58:02 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
17:58:02 <Zakim> -soeren
17:58:03 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:58:04 <mhausenblas> zakim, list attendees
17:58:05 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been hhalpin, +1.617.306.aaaa, mhausenblas, MacTed, Ericp, Ashok_Malhotra, +1.512.471.aabb, juansequeda, cygri, +039046188aacc, +49.322.22.aadd,
17:58:07 <Zakim> -juansequeda
17:58:07 <Zakim> ... nunolopes, soeren
17:58:09 <Zakim> - +1.617.306.aaaa
17:58:16 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:58:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/02-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:58:18 <Zakim> - +039046188aacc
17:58:51 <mhausenblas> zakim, bye
17:58:51 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were hhalpin, +1.617.306.aaaa, mhausenblas, MacTed, Ericp, Ashok_Malhotra, +1.512.471.aabb, juansequeda, cygri, +039046188aacc,
17:58:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdb2rdf
17:58:54 <Zakim> ... +49.322.22.aadd, nunolopes, soeren
17:59:01 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, bye
17:59:01 <RRSAgent> I see no action items