IRC log of RDB2RDF on 2010-02-02
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 17:00:49 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #RDB2RDF
- 17:00:49 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/02-RDB2RDF-irc
- 17:00:51 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 17:00:51 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #RDB2RDF
- 17:00:53 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be 7322733
- 17:00:53 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start now
- 17:00:54 [trackbot]
- Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
- 17:00:54 [trackbot]
- Date: 02 February 2010
- 17:00:57 [mhausenblas]
- Chair: Ahmed
- 17:01:02 [mhausenblas]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Feb/0000.html
- 17:01:07 [mhausenblas]
- Scribenick: mhausenblas
- 17:01:11 [mhausenblas]
- Topic: Admin
- 17:01:12 [angela_UNITN]
- angela_UNITN has joined #RDB2RDF
- 17:01:19 [MacTed]
- Zakim, who's here?
- 17:01:19 [Zakim]
- SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has not yet started, MacTed
- 17:01:20 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see angela_UNITN, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, Ahmed, Seema, Ashok, BenSzekely, mdean, nunolopes, MacTed, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
- 17:01:27 [MacTed]
- Zakim, this is 7322733
- 17:01:29 [Zakim]
- ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM
- 17:01:31 [MacTed]
- Zakim, who's here?
- 17:01:35 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ??P4, hhalpin, OpenLink_Software
- 17:01:41 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see angela_UNITN, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, Ahmed, Seema, Ashok, BenSzekely, mdean, nunolopes, MacTed, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
- 17:01:44 [MacTed]
- Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
- 17:01:46 [Zakim]
- + +1.617.306.aaaa
- 17:01:47 [MacTed]
- Zakim, mute me
- 17:01:50 [Zakim]
- +mhausenblas
- 17:01:50 [ericP]
- Zakim, please dial ericp-office
- 17:01:52 [Zakim]
- +MacTed; got it
- 17:01:56 [Zakim]
- MacTed should now be muted
- 17:02:00 [Zakim]
- ok, ericP; the call is being made
- 17:02:00 [cygri]
- cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
- 17:02:06 [Zakim]
- +Ericp
- 17:02:23 [Zakim]
- +Ashok_Malhotra
- 17:02:25 [mhausenblas]
- regrets+ Marcelo
- 17:02:36 [mhausenblas]
- regrets+ Li Ma
- 17:02:48 [mhausenblas]
- regrets+ Harry
- 17:02:49 [Zakim]
- + +1.512.471.aabb
- 17:02:56 [soeren]
- soeren has joined #RDB2RDF
- 17:03:00 [mhausenblas]
- Zakim, aabb is juansequeda
- 17:03:05 [mhausenblas]
- Zakim, who's here?
- 17:03:07 [Zakim]
- +juansequeda; got it
- 17:03:13 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ??P4, hhalpin, MacTed (muted), +1.617.306.aaaa, mhausenblas, Ericp, Ashok_Malhotra, juansequeda
- 17:03:14 [mhausenblas]
- Zakim, cygri is with mhausenblas
- 17:03:26 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see soeren, cygri, angela_UNITN, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, Ahmed, Seema, Ashok, BenSzekely, mdean, nunolopes, MacTed, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
- 17:03:29 [Zakim]
- +cygri; got it
- 17:03:31 [Zakim]
- + +039046188aacc
- 17:03:31 [BenSzekely]
- +1.617.306.aaaa is me
- 17:03:37 [Zakim]
- + +49.322.22.aadd
- 17:03:38 [nunolopes]
- Zakim, nunolopes is with mhausenblas
- 17:03:51 [Zakim]
- +nunolopes; got it
- 17:03:56 [soeren]
- zakim, aadd is me
- 17:04:03 [Zakim]
- +soeren; got it
- 17:04:13 [angela_UNITN]
- aacc is me
- 17:04:19 [mhausenblas]
- Zakim, who's here?
- 17:04:19 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ??P4, hhalpin, MacTed (muted), +1.617.306.aaaa, mhausenblas, Ericp, Ashok_Malhotra, juansequeda, +039046188aacc, soeren
- 17:04:22 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see soeren, cygri, angela_UNITN, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, Ahmed, Seema, Ashok, BenSzekely, mdean, nunolopes, MacTed, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
- 17:04:24 [Zakim]
- mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri, nunolopes
- 17:05:44 [mhausenblas]
- Ahmed?
- 17:06:45 [mhausenblas]
- Zakim, who's here?
- 17:06:45 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ??P4, hhalpin, MacTed (muted), +1.617.306.aaaa, mhausenblas, Ericp, Ashok_Malhotra, juansequeda, +039046188aacc, soeren
- 17:06:47 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see soeren, cygri, angela_UNITN, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, Ahmed, Seema, Ashok, BenSzekely, mdean, nunolopes, MacTed, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
- 17:06:50 [Zakim]
- mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri, nunolopes
- 17:07:44 [BenSzekely]
- *4
- 17:09:37 [MacTed]
- Zakim, who's making noise
- 17:09:37 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'who's making noise', MacTed
- 17:09:44 [MacTed]
- Zakim, who's making noise?
- 17:09:55 [Zakim]
- MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P4 (37%), +039046188aacc (20%), +1.617.306.aaaa (85%)
- 17:11:00 [mhausenblas]
- PROPOSAL: accept minutes of previous telecon http://www.w3.org/2010/01/26-RDB2RDF-minutes.html
- 17:11:23 [ericP]
- +1
- 17:11:26 [soeren]
- +1
- 17:11:34 [mhausenblas]
- RESOLUTION: accept minutes of previous telecon http://www.w3.org/2010/01/26-RDB2RDF-minutes.html
- 17:12:37 [juansequeda]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/GeneratedSQL
- 17:12:40 [juansequeda]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/PotentialSQLIssues
- 17:13:03 [ericP]
- http://esw.w3.org/topic/HCLSIG/RDB2RDF_Use_Cases
- 17:15:43 [mhausenblas]
- Topic: work planning
- 17:16:08 [mhausenblas]
- ericP: how do we communicate what a mapping does
- 17:16:24 [mhausenblas]
- ... here is the input data in relational form and here is the RDF
- 17:17:01 [mhausenblas]
- ... so we want to pick a fairly neutral SQL and as an output a Turtle graph
- 17:17:06 [mhausenblas]
- ... no NG for now
- 17:17:51 [mhausenblas]
- Ahmed: why not use RDF/XML for the output?
- 17:17:59 [mhausenblas]
- ericP: maybe Turtle is easier
- 17:18:08 [mhausenblas]
- ... for manual editing/reviewing
- 17:18:36 [mhausenblas]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 17:18:36 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/02-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 17:18:43 [mhausenblas]
- rrsagent, make record public
- 17:19:00 [mhausenblas]
- ericP: put the tabular, SQL form into the Wiki
- 17:19:27 [mhausenblas]
- soeren: for what kind of data you mean SQL? for the TC, etc?
- 17:21:33 [mhausenblas]
- q+ to ask about the focus
- 17:21:50 [mhausenblas]
- ack me
- 17:21:50 [Zakim]
- mhausenblas, you wanted to ask about the focus
- 17:22:00 [ericP]
- INSERT INTO People (id, name) VALUES (18, "Bob"), (23, "Sue")
- 17:23:57 [mhausenblas]
- ericP: I'm trying to set up a framework to communicate between our TF and HCLS
- 17:25:03 [mhausenblas]
- soeren: should be called relational-annotation approach
- 17:26:54 [mhausenblas]
- Michael: I see two fundamental approaches - SQL-based mapping and dedicated-language-based mapping
- 17:27:43 [cygri]
- q+
- 17:27:53 [angela]
- angela has joined #RDB2RDF
- 17:28:45 [mhausenblas]
- ack cygri
- 17:28:58 [juansequeda]
- q+
- 17:29:22 [mhausenblas]
- cygri: I'd argue that the relational-annotation approach doesn't work for complex cases without using SQL views
- 17:30:03 [mhausenblas]
- soeren: a more direct approach like ericP's might perform better
- 17:30:17 [mhausenblas]
- ... without domain-mappings
- 17:32:32 [mhausenblas]
- cygri: relational-annotation approach will require schema modification IMO
- 17:33:34 [mhausenblas]
- ... if one uses relational-annotation the without schema modification, the efficiency is very bad at least on MySQL
- 17:34:01 [mhausenblas]
- ... this leads to a big problem
- 17:34:02 [soeren]
- q+
- 17:34:12 [mhausenblas]
- ... we hence need to talk about performance as well
- 17:34:15 [mhausenblas]
- queue?
- 17:35:21 [ericP]
- cygri's was talking about recent contributions to http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/PotentialSQLIssues (i believe)
- 17:35:49 [mhausenblas]
- soeren: performance will drop once you want a domain mapping
- 17:36:31 [mhausenblas]
- ack juansequeda
- 17:36:48 [mhausenblas]
- juansequeda: we do need two groups
- 17:36:57 [mhausenblas]
- ... question is where the optimisation is done
- 17:37:29 [mhausenblas]
- ... in Ultrawrap we change the scheme and let the engine do the rest
- 17:37:40 [mhausenblas]
- queue?
- 17:37:52 [ericP]
- i'm not convinced that the "schema-less" queries need to be pre-optimized any more than if they do it on the SQL side
- 17:37:54 [soeren]
- -q
- 17:38:03 [Seema]
- q+
- 17:38:44 [mhausenblas]
- ack Seema
- 17:39:13 [mhausenblas]
- Seema: so we have two groups? one modify schema and other non-modify schema?
- 17:39:14 [ericP]
- +1 to Seema's characterization
- 17:39:25 [ericP]
- at least, that's how i understand it
- 17:39:42 [mhausenblas]
- cygri: seems that people think along different lines
- 17:40:05 [mhausenblas]
- ... schema-modify vs. non, optimising in the mapping vs. not, etc
- 17:40:27 [mhausenblas]
- ... personally I think it doesn't matter. we will end up in two groups
- 17:40:37 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 17:40:37 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/02-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 17:41:02 [ericP]
- i think that the distinction based on the language of the rule body is the least controversion
- 17:41:17 [ericP]
- s/controversion/controversial/
- 17:41:44 [mhausenblas]
- cygri: we should not focus on the question of schema-modify, matter of performance
- 17:41:58 [mhausenblas]
- ... rather focus on where the optimisation occurs
- 17:42:44 [mhausenblas]
- juansequeda: R2RML is a mapping language so should be independent where the optimisation is done
- 17:43:08 [mhausenblas]
- cygri: if done with SQL, one would naturally do the optimisation in the RDBMS
- 17:43:28 [mhausenblas]
- ... if done outside, better have something which is easy to parse
- 17:43:29 [Ashok]
- Q+
- 17:43:37 [mhausenblas]
- ack Ashok
- 17:43:40 [ericP]
- q+ to characterize one language as an RDF language
- 17:44:02 [mhausenblas]
- Ashok: cygri, why optimisation focus?
- 17:44:24 [mhausenblas]
- ... no need to duplicate the work done in the past 30y
- 17:44:39 [mhausenblas]
- cygri: in case of MySQl, for instance this is a problem
- 17:45:07 [ericP]
- q-
- 17:45:13 [mhausenblas]
- Ahmed: we come from the use cases
- 17:45:35 [mhausenblas]
- ... there are cases where it is not possible to change the schema
- 17:45:39 [mhausenblas]
- queue?
- 17:46:40 [mhausenblas]
- Ahmed: any mapping language we come up with needs to support all use cases
- 17:47:32 [mhausenblas]
- Ashok: my question is simply - why are we speaking about changing the schema?
- 17:47:41 [mhausenblas]
- Ahmed: because of the views
- 17:48:04 [mhausenblas]
- Ashok: so you're talking about creating views. IMO this is not changing the schema
- 17:48:18 [mhausenblas]
- Ahmed: well, maybe read-only, but still a change
- 17:48:39 [mhausenblas]
- Ahmed: we have such scenarios in-house
- 17:48:52 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 17:48:52 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/02-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 17:49:11 [mhausenblas]
- Ashok: but the views don't need to be stored, just executed, right?
- 17:49:16 [mhausenblas]
- Ahmed: correct
- 17:49:40 [mhausenblas]
- ... but some engines, such as MySQL have issues with it
- 17:49:48 [mhausenblas]
- queue
- 17:49:51 [mhausenblas]
- queue?
- 17:50:08 [mhausenblas]
- cygri: agree, that was a nice summary
- 17:50:21 [mhausenblas]
- cygri: re issues, see http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/PotentialSQLIssues
- 17:50:37 [mhausenblas]
- ... has examples in there where we have problems
- 17:50:59 [mhausenblas]
- Ahmed: if MySQL is limited re this, we might need another approach
- 17:51:02 [ericP]
- q?
- 17:52:02 [mhausenblas]
- juansequeda: SQLServer has no problem with it
- 17:52:56 [mhausenblas]
- cygri: at least for D2RQ it is true that MySQL is very often used
- 17:53:11 [mhausenblas]
- ... so needs to work with it reasonable well
- 17:53:51 [mhausenblas]
- cygri: as long as I can rewrite the query myself to deal with the specific weaknesses of the target
- 17:54:01 [mhausenblas]
- ... I guess it's doable
- 17:54:12 [ericP]
- cygri, wouldn't it be easier in the long run to fix the database's optimizer? (half joking)
- 17:54:27 [mhausenblas]
- cygri: but shouldn't show up in the mapping lanuage
- 17:54:52 [mhausenblas]
- ... in D2RQ the mapping is broken down onto class/prop level
- 17:54:57 [juansequeda]
- ericP: we told our students to implement merge join for mysql
- 17:55:25 [ericP]
- cool, nice to see open source improvements
- 17:56:15 [juansequeda]
- oops, i meant coma
- 17:56:32 [mhausenblas]
- s/ericP: we /ericP, we
- 17:56:38 [mhausenblas]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 17:56:38 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/02-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 17:57:00 [mhausenblas]
- Ahmed: gotta go soon
- 17:57:17 [mhausenblas]
- ... continue next week
- 17:57:55 [mhausenblas]
- [adjourned]
- 17:57:57 [Zakim]
- -??P4
- 17:57:59 [Zakim]
- -hhalpin
- 17:58:00 [Zakim]
- -mhausenblas
- 17:58:02 [Zakim]
- -Ashok_Malhotra
- 17:58:02 [Zakim]
- -soeren
- 17:58:03 [Zakim]
- -MacTed
- 17:58:04 [mhausenblas]
- zakim, list attendees
- 17:58:05 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been hhalpin, +1.617.306.aaaa, mhausenblas, MacTed, Ericp, Ashok_Malhotra, +1.512.471.aabb, juansequeda, cygri, +039046188aacc, +49.322.22.aadd,
- 17:58:07 [Zakim]
- -juansequeda
- 17:58:07 [Zakim]
- ... nunolopes, soeren
- 17:58:09 [Zakim]
- - +1.617.306.aaaa
- 17:58:16 [mhausenblas]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 17:58:16 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/02-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
- 17:58:18 [Zakim]
- - +039046188aacc
- 17:58:51 [mhausenblas]
- zakim, bye
- 17:58:51 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees were hhalpin, +1.617.306.aaaa, mhausenblas, MacTed, Ericp, Ashok_Malhotra, +1.512.471.aabb, juansequeda, cygri, +039046188aacc,
- 17:58:51 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #rdb2rdf
- 17:58:54 [Zakim]
- ... +49.322.22.aadd, nunolopes, soeren
- 17:59:01 [mhausenblas]
- rrsagent, bye
- 17:59:01 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items