16:58:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #RDB2RDF
16:58:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/01/26-RDB2RDF-irc
16:58:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:58:25 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #RDB2RDF
16:58:27 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
16:58:27 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
16:58:28 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:58:28 <trackbot> Date: 26 January 2010
16:58:31 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
16:58:38 <Zakim> +??P10
16:58:58 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Jan/0047.html
16:59:09 <Zakim> +??P15
16:59:09 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:59:13 <Zakim> + +1.512.471.aaaa
16:59:18 <mhausenblas> Chair: Ahmed 
16:59:23 <mhausenblas> scribenick: whalb 
16:59:27 <Zakim> +whalb
16:59:30 <Marcelo> Marcelo has joined #rdb2rdf
17:00:13 <nunolopes> nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF
17:00:14 <Zakim> +??P24
17:00:39 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
17:00:51 <Zakim> +hhalpin
17:01:05 <soeren> soeren has joined #RDB2RDF
17:01:14 <Zakim> + +49.322.222.0.aabb
17:02:04 <soeren> zakim, aabb is soeren
17:02:05 <Zakim> +soeren; got it
17:02:07 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
17:02:11 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
17:02:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P10, ??P15, +1.512.471.aaaa, whalb, ??P24, mhausenblas, hhalpin, soeren
17:02:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see cygri, soeren, nunolopes, Marcelo, Souri, Zakim, RRSAgent, li_ma, Ahmed, Seema, whalb, juansequeda, mhausenblas, hhalpin, MacTed, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
17:02:21 <mhausenblas> cygri is with mhausenblas 
17:02:34 <mhausenblas> Zakim, cygri is with mhausenblas 
17:02:35 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
17:02:53 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:02:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/26-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:03:05 <Zakim> +??P38
17:03:11 <mhausenblas> zakim, make logs public
17:03:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make logs public', mhausenblas
17:03:17 <hhalpin> Zakim, ??P38 is hhalpin 
17:03:17 <Zakim> +hhalpin; got it
17:03:23 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:03:55 <Zakim> + +035385271aacc
17:04:15 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aacc is nunolopes 
17:04:15 <Zakim> +nunolopes; got it
17:04:44 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
17:05:05 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
17:05:05 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
17:05:08 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
17:05:08 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
17:05:39 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Angela
17:06:05 <whalb> topic: roll call
17:06:21 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Ben
17:06:59 <whalb> topic: approve minutes
17:07:14 <whalb> http://www.w3.org/2010/01/19-RDB2RDF-minutes.html
17:07:17 <mhausenblas> +1
17:07:18 <Ahmed> +1
17:07:28 <mhausenblas> ACTION-18?
17:07:28 <trackbot> ACTION-18 -- Harry Halpin to update web-page and schedule -- due 2010-01-19 -- OPEN
17:07:28 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/18
17:07:33 <mhausenblas> close ACTION-18
17:07:33 <trackbot> ACTION-18 Update web-page and schedule closed
17:07:40 <mhausenblas> ACTION-19?
17:07:40 <trackbot> ACTION-19 -- Harry Halpin to put Souri's draft into a WBS poll and notify the WG -- due 2010-01-19 -- OPEN
17:07:40 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/19
17:07:43 <Zakim> +??P5
17:08:10 <hhalpin> will ping souri re e-mail.
17:08:21 <hhalpin> which part of the draft in particular?
17:08:26 <Souri> We have put a write-up (including an XML syntax) on the wiki
17:08:27 <hhalpin> send me the URI
17:08:32 <hhalpin> (looking)
17:08:42 <Souri> under Working docs
17:09:26 <mhausenblas> ACTION-20?
17:09:26 <trackbot> ACTION-20 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Linked_Data_Principles to say 'MUST allow to..." -- due 2010-01-26 -- OPEN
17:09:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/20
17:09:36 <mhausenblas> close ACTION-20
17:09:36 <trackbot> ACTION-20 Update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Linked_Data_Principles to say 'MUST allow to..." closed
17:09:44 <mhausenblas> ACTION-21
17:09:50 <mhausenblas> close ACTION-21
17:09:50 <trackbot> ACTION-21 Update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Well-known_Entities to reflect discussion (3 cases) closed
17:09:58 <mhausenblas> ACTION-22?
17:09:58 <trackbot> ACTION-22 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to add Ahmed's plan to the Wiki -- due 2010-01-26 -- OPEN
17:09:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/22
17:10:06 <mhausenblas> close ACTION-22
17:10:08 <trackbot> ACTION-22 Add Ahmed's plan to the Wiki closed
17:10:15 <mhausenblas> ACTION-23
17:10:17 <mhausenblas> ACTION-23?
17:10:17 <trackbot> ACTION-23 -- Richard Cyganiak to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/LinkedDataAspects#Provenance re today's discussion -- due 2010-01-26 -- OPEN
17:10:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/23
17:10:18 <Seema> Souri I will follow up with you on this
17:11:19 <whalb> ahmed: main topic is how we continue forward, give an outline and set direction
17:12:02 <hhalpin> sounds good to me
17:12:11 <whalb> topic: R2RML Mapping aspects
17:12:26 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:12:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/26-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:12:33 <whalb> ahmed: two sub-teams, another team for linked data needed
17:12:42 <hhalpin> well, sort of.
17:12:47 <hhalpin> q+
17:12:59 <whalb> soeren: no further linked data group needed, included in both other sub-teams
17:13:24 <whalb> ahmed: wants linked data area to be covered anyway
17:13:41 <whalb> ... need more people commited to sub-teams
17:14:00 <whalb> ... how are we going to proceed?
17:14:03 <hhalpin> +1 status reports
17:14:06 <Souri> This was the URL: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/RDB-to-RDF_mapping:_A_SQL-based_Approach
17:14:18 <whalb> ... are teams going to give status reports of e.g. 15mins?
17:14:25 <whalb> ... how are we going to show progress?
17:14:30 <mhausenblas> ack hhalpin
17:15:46 <hhalpin> http://neurocommons.org/page/Common_Naming_Project
17:15:54 <hhalpin> http://www.okkam.org/
17:16:02 <hhalpin> http://linkeddata.org/
17:16:27 <whalb> hhalpin: suggest that each group has a member dealing with the different aspects of linked data, etc.
17:17:02 <hhalpin> i'd also suggest that we have a session with the HCLS group
17:17:06 <whalb> mhausenblas: we should focus on mapping stuff in the first phase, other members supporting both teams re. linked data
17:17:20 <hhalpin> as they have interaction for NeuroCommons Common Naming Project
17:17:54 <whalb> ... whenever there is a need from one of the groups to get some input on linked data topics the experts should chime in
17:18:12 <hhalpin> ericP? 
17:18:20 <hhalpin> He's the staff contact for HCLS
17:18:27 <whalb> hhalpin: also input from the life science domain, probalby from ericp
17:19:19 <mhausenblas> ACTION: ericP to take care of the HCLS statement
17:19:19 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ericP
17:19:36 <hhalpin> hmm
17:19:38 <hhalpin> let me look
17:20:29 <Zakim> +EricP
17:20:31 <whalb> soeren: two proposals: oracle created one and soeren tried to distill another one, wanted to align efforts
17:20:44 <whalb> ... not yet talked to each of the other groups
17:21:08 <whalb> ... suggestions for possible syntax of the mapping:
17:21:15 <soeren> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/R2RML_SQL_View_Annotation
17:21:38 <whalb> ... called SQL View Annotation, intention is to add syntax for mapping language
17:22:54 <whalb> ... syntax: db conn needs to be established, namespaces + prefixes
17:23:16 <whalb> ... two distinguished namespaces: base namespace for creating data instance items
17:23:26 <whalb> ... optional schema namespace: properties, classes
17:23:47 <whalb> ... could be overwritten by custom definitions
17:24:07 <whalb> ... table definition is the core, most important part
17:24:49 <whalb> ... R2RMap current single syntactical element, first parameter basically a relation identifier
17:25:07 <whalb> ... second element: path used to create linked data entity identifiers
17:25:20 <whalb> ... additional parameters are optional
17:25:50 <whalb> ... third element: reference to a class (rdfs, owl) used to make instances of this specific clas (optional parameter)
17:26:19 <whalb> ... remaining parameters: definitions for each of the columns in the relation (from param1)
17:26:45 <whalb> ... they are all optional
17:27:02 <whalb> ... if omitted the column name is used for creating identifiers
17:27:24 <whalb> ... syntax is inspired by triplify
17:27:50 <mhausenblas> q+ to note on Test Cases
17:28:19 <whalb> ... additional issues: user defined output processing functions, static metadata, attribute-value tables, named graphs,
17:28:46 <whalb> ... update logs, provenance (triplify approach could also be applied here)
17:29:07 <whalb> ... a lot of work already done on how to tackle these issues
17:29:35 <whalb> ... core is r2rmap syntax
17:29:48 <whalb> ... as a staring point that can be refined later on
17:30:20 <mhausenblas> ack me
17:30:20 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to note on Test Cases
17:30:22 <whalb> mhausenblas: start thinking about test cases: specify sample input and output
17:31:03 <whalb> ... ideally a set of test cases is created/made available
17:31:39 <whalb> ahmed: alignment with ashok?
17:32:06 <whalb> soeren: contacted ashok/oracle, waiting for responses
17:32:53 <whalb> ... discussion will take 2-3 more weeks
17:33:19 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:33:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/26-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:33:21 <Souri> Soren, not sure if you got our email from Friday -- we wanted to find out times that would be convenient to you
17:33:26 <whalb> ahmed: two teams working together, is there a need for a leader of the sub-teams?
17:33:39 <whalb> ... responsible for communication, coordination, not a technical leader
17:34:13 <whalb> mhausenblas: person in charge should also have reporting responsibility
17:35:01 <whalb> ahmed: any volunteers or suggestions?
17:35:49 <whalb> orri: we should do something that substantially relies on sql
17:36:49 <whalb> ... fine with something that's compatible to sql views as long as it works out in the end
17:37:51 <Souri> Did anyone get a chance to review the XML syntax we had posted last week? (special case simplification with auto-mapping is always possible)
17:38:47 <hhalpin> q+
17:39:21 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's making noise?
17:39:31 <Zakim> hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P15 (9%), soeren (14%)
17:39:48 <hhalpin> For soundness and completeness, I would defer to Marcelo or at least have him go over the draft :)
17:40:50 <Marcelo> sure, I can do it :-)
17:43:03 <hhalpin> ericP: I think it's left stuff to specify mapping SPARQL to SQL
17:43:13 <mhausenblas> scribenick: hhalpin 
17:43:19 <hhalpin> soeren: but SPARQL constructs are very limited in expressivity
17:43:36 <hhalpin> soeren: assigning results of a computation to a new variable
17:43:44 <hhalpin> soeren: build a string by concating 2 others
17:43:56 <hhalpin> soeren: i.e. firstname+lastname concat for a URI
17:44:01 <soeren> hhalpin, its richard
17:44:01 <hhalpin> ericP: can't do that.
17:44:14 <hhalpin> s/soeren/cygri
17:44:25 <hhalpin> cygri: And we are not sure about SPARQL 1.1
17:44:50 <hhalpin> ... we will have use-cases outside of SPARQL construct
17:44:58 <hhalpin> ... this will require a bit of work
17:45:04 <hhalpin> ... if it is possible
17:45:08 <hhalpin> ericP: understood
17:45:31 <hhalpin> orri: it would seem to me
17:45:44 <hhalpin> ... that we need to things in sql
17:45:48 <[1]whalb> [1]whalb has joined #RDB2RDF
17:45:53 <hhalpin> ... but we should take sparql 1.1 as a given
17:46:09 <hhalpin> ericP: but the point remains
17:46:10 <[1]whalb> * sorry, got disconnected
17:46:12 <hhalpin> ... that a bit of sql
17:46:23 <hhalpin> ... the commonality is still more expressive than even sparql 1.1
17:46:35 <hhalpin> ... what do we save about this use-cases?
17:46:50 <hhalpin> Ahmed: the main issue with SQL view
17:46:59 <hhalpin> ... is you have to "touch" the database
17:47:03 <whalb> soeren: disagrees
17:47:14 <whalb> ... no need to touch the database
17:47:17 <Souri> I disagree
17:47:29 <whalb> cygri: several database problems with horrible performance
17:48:01 <Souri> agree with Soren
17:48:10 <whalb> soeren: customised mapping approach still could be done, optimised subqueries will be faster
17:48:19 <whalb> orri: sql dbs will be fine
17:48:48 <whalb> ... query gets unusual when mapping sparql to sql
17:48:54 <whalb> ... in prinicple should be fine
17:49:35 <mhausenblas> scribenick: whalb 
17:49:51 <whalb> cygri: sparql to sql translation is hard for the user to optimise
17:51:03 <whalb> ?: manipulation can be done on internal representations
17:51:29 <whalb> cygri: you can use base tables if that is all you need
17:51:38 <juansequeda> yes
17:51:40 <MacTed> Zakim, who's making noise?
17:51:47 <mhausenblas> s/?:/Dan:
17:51:51 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: mhausenblas (100%), soeren (43%)
17:52:07 <whalb> ... need to rely on optimiser in database if complex query
17:52:27 <whalb> ... not same effort as doing optimisation on other side
17:52:48 <whalb> ahmed: subqueries not a problem
17:53:07 <whalb> ... problem is at the end you get sql datatypes
17:53:25 <whalb> cygri: not a problem, soeren's syntax proposal covers that basically
17:53:54 <whalb> ... can be easily done outside db
17:54:17 <whalb> ahmed: why classify this approach as sql view
17:54:34 <whalb> ... translating sql data outside the db
17:54:51 <whalb> soeren: there is need for a mapping engine finally
17:55:03 <whalb> ... sql (view) annotation approach
17:55:17 <whalb> ... sql engine already does mapping from sql data to data
17:55:35 <whalb> ahmed: disagrees, you get back sql datatypes  if mapping is done outside
17:55:45 <whalb> ... why call this approach sql view mapping
17:56:25 <whalb> cygri: sql output is turned into rdf triples
17:56:38 <whalb> ... transforming to sql view is done inside db
17:57:00 <ericP> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Jan/att-0050/RDB2RDFTest.scala SPARQL queries tranlated to SQL
17:57:07 <Souri> The SQLdefString is the one that is employed directly against the host db (i.e., the data source)
17:57:11 <whalb> ... transformation from three col sql result is simple work done outside
17:57:19 <whalb> ... mapping is inside the db
17:57:49 <whalb> ahmed: view is defined term in sql world
17:58:09 <whalb> ... would not call that approach sql view, misuse of terminology
17:58:18 <hhalpin> We can call it something else I imagine...
17:59:01 <whalb> orri: column is the predicate on the row, multi-col views ok
17:59:41 <whalb> ahmed: sql view means that data is updated automatically
17:59:53 <sdas2> sdas2 has joined #rdb2rdf
18:00:02 <Zakim> -??P5
18:00:36 <whalb> ... the last mentioned approach does not need any special optimisation
18:00:38 <sdas2> sdas2 has joined #rdb2rdf
18:01:11 <whalb> cygri: still a problem for specific db systems, e.g. mysql
18:01:35 <whalb> ... simple looking queries can perform poorly
18:01:46 <mhausenblas> we need to wrap up soon, we're on the top of the hour
18:02:05 <whalb> ahmed: which subqueries do not perfom well?
18:02:28 <whalb> ... mysql usually only has drawbacks in transactions, updates, ...
18:02:36 <whalb> ... difference if change in db is needed or not
18:02:41 <whalb> ... we need to support both cases
18:03:17 <Seema> Oracle presentation covers both "db" and "no db" cases
18:03:18 <hhalpin> hmmm...
18:03:40 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
18:03:49 <whalb> ... interested to get to know difficult subqueries for mysql
18:04:19 <whalb> soeren: question seems not to be important
18:04:27 <whalb> ... there are some issues with every db
18:04:40 <ericP> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Jan/att-0050/RDB2RDFTest.scala
18:04:43 <whalb> ... but there has been spent a lot of time on db development
18:05:12 <whalb> ericp: interested if those sql queries could make troubles
18:05:29 <hhalpin> i think we can continue for a bit till discussion ends
18:05:39 <whalb> ahmed: subquery is no issue at any level
18:05:55 <whalb> ... problem is the optimiser for specific types of queries
18:05:55 <mhausenblas> I'd love to see a write-up of today's discussion :)
18:08:06 <whalb> ahmed: create a list of typical queries generated from sparql to sql to figure out the difficult ones
18:08:12 <mhausenblas> Michael: I like today's discussion - eventually we start to disagree
18:09:55 <whalb> ... start collecting cases on the wiki
18:10:24 <whalb> ericp: sql generated from rdb2rdf translations, sql that is a "show stopper"
18:11:00 <whalb> ahmed: would like to see an approach that does not touch the db
18:11:01 <ericP> GeneratedSQL and PotentialSQLIssues
18:11:04 <mhausenblas> thanks to ericP for kicking-off the Wiki stuff
18:11:32 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:11:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/26-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
18:11:37 <whalb> souri: oracle presentation mentioned that in the case db is not touched
18:12:01 <mhausenblas> Zakim, list attendees
18:12:01 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.512.471.aaaa, whalb, mhausenblas, hhalpin, +49.322.222.0.aabb, soeren, cygri, +035385271aacc, nunolopes, MacTed, EricP
18:12:04 <Zakim> -soeren
18:12:04 <Zakim> -??P10
18:12:05 <Zakim> -EricP
18:12:05 <Zakim> -hhalpin
18:12:07 <Zakim> -whalb
18:12:07 <Zakim> -MacTed
18:12:08 <Zakim> -??P15
18:12:09 <Zakim> -??P24
18:12:27 <Zakim> -hhalpin.a
18:12:28 <Ahmed> Bye.
18:12:29 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
18:12:31 <hhalpin> bye
18:12:31 <Zakim> - +1.512.471.aaaa
18:12:35 <mhausenblas> adjourned
18:12:42 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:12:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/01/26-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
18:12:59 <Zakim> -nunolopes
18:13:01 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has ended
18:13:02 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.512.471.aaaa, whalb, mhausenblas, hhalpin, +49.322.222.0.aabb, soeren, cygri, +035385271aacc, nunolopes, MacTed, EricP
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