Warning:
This wiki has been archived and is now read-only.
Chatlog 2011-10-04
From SPARQL Working Group
See original RRSAgent log and preview nicely formatted version.
Please justify/explain all edits to this page, in your "edit summary" text.
13:55:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql 13:55:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-sparql-irc 13:55:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 13:55:52 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql 13:55:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277 13:55:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 13:55:55 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference 13:55:55 <trackbot> Date: 04 October 2011 13:55:56 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL 13:55:56 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 13:56:03 <LeeF> Chair: AxelPolleres 13:56:26 <LeeF> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011OctDec/0010.html 13:56:39 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started 13:56:45 <Zakim> +??P2 13:56:55 <NickH> zakim, ??P2 is me 13:56:55 <Zakim> +NickH; got it 13:57:04 <NickH> zakim, mute me 13:57:04 <Zakim> sorry, NickH, muting is not permitted when only one person is present 13:57:09 <NickH> heh 13:57:14 <kasei> ha 13:57:29 <cbuilara> cbuilara has joined #sparql 13:57:29 <LeeF> why in the world would that be? 13:57:30 <Zakim> +kasei 13:57:36 <NickH> zakim, mute me 13:57:36 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted 13:58:10 <LeeF> Regrets: SteveH, Chimezie 13:59:22 <Zakim> +??P4 13:59:31 <cbuilara> zakim, ??P4 is me 13:59:31 <Zakim> +cbuilara; got it 13:59:42 <Zakim> + +1.781.899.aaaa 13:59:51 <sandro> zakim, aaaa is Sandro 13:59:51 <Zakim> +Sandro; got it 13:59:57 <Zakim> +??P19 14:00:04 <Zakim> +Bernard 14:00:07 <AndyS> zakim, ??P19 is me 14:00:07 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it 14:00:10 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sparql 14:00:18 <AndyS> kasei - not had a chance yet. 14:00:58 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aabb 14:00:58 <kasei> AndyS: ok. i'll try to work through it in more depth 14:01:11 <MattPerry> zakim, aabb is me 14:01:11 <Zakim> +MattPerry; got it 14:01:40 <Zakim> + +1.540.841.aacc 14:02:04 <pgearon> Zakim, aacc is me 14:02:07 <Zakim> +pgearon; got it 14:03:25 <Zakim> + +1.617.553.aadd 14:03:29 <LeeF> zakim, aadd is me 14:03:29 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it 14:03:55 <Zakim> +??P29 14:04:16 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone? 14:04:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see NickH (muted), kasei, cbuilara, Sandro, AndyS, Bernard, MattPerry, pgearon, LeeF, ??P29 14:04:39 <LeeF> zakim, ??P29 is AxelPolleres 14:04:48 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres; got it 14:05:11 <LeeF> zakim, Bernard is Olivier 14:05:11 <Zakim> +Olivier; got it 14:05:13 <bglimm> bglimm has joined #sparql 14:05:50 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011OctDec/0010.html 14:06:18 <kasei> I can 14:06:23 <LeeF> scribenick: kasei 14:06:27 <LeeF> topic: admin 14:06:39 <Zakim> + +49.731.502.aaee 14:06:40 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes from http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-09-27 14:06:56 <bglimm> Zakim, +49.731.502.aaee is me 14:06:56 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it 14:07:00 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me 14:07:00 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted 14:07:08 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes from http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-09-27 14:07:36 <LeeF> Next regular meeting: 2011-10-11 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Sandro) 14:07:45 <Olivier> regrets for next week 14:07:48 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #sparql 14:07:53 <LeeF> next week regrets: axel & olivier 14:08:17 <kasei> topic: liaison with RDF WG 14:08:25 <Olivier> Olivier has joined #sparql 14:08:35 <kasei> AndyS: not much progress... named graphs discussions continue. 14:08:59 <kasei> ... been waiting on concensus on discussion on RDF Datasets 14:09:11 <kasei> ... until entire framework is resolved, wouldn't want to make changes. 14:09:29 <kasei> ... we're not at a point yet where we have to decide. 14:09:37 <kasei> LeeF: I don't think the current wording is a problem. 14:09:48 <kasei> ... hasn't caused problems with implementors. 14:10:07 <LeeF> topic: string functions 14:10:28 <kasei> LeeF: continuing dicussion from Jeen's comment on motivation for string functions 14:10:36 <kasei> ... 1- vs. 0-indexed functions 14:10:47 <kasei> ... trying to decide why we don't have an index function 14:11:01 <kasei> ... substring-before and substring-after handle same use cases 14:11:13 <kasei> ... Andy proposed adding substring-before, substring-after, and replace functions. 14:11:21 <kasei> ... some support for that. 14:11:35 <kasei> ... questions: some other functions from RIF. should we include them? 14:11:48 <kasei> ... also from greg regarding unicode. 14:11:56 <AndyS> q+ to ask Axel about fn:string-join 14:12:31 <LeeF> kasei: if we ground these functions in the XSD definitions of substring before and substring after, i looked at the definition and wasn't sure i could implement them 14:12:42 <AndyS> q+ to say without "collation" as with other functions. 14:12:45 <LeeF> ... seemed like it required deep understanding of lots of specs to do the pattern matching properly 14:13:05 <LeeF> AndyS: We could add without the versions with collation 14:13:11 <kasei> AndyS: i think we'd add them without the collation. we haven't adopted collation forms of other functions in the past. 14:13:37 <kasei> ... implemented in ~3 lines of java. nothing unusual going on. 14:13:51 <AxelPolleres> fine without collation (ie, standard codepoint collation always)? 14:14:29 <kasei> AxelPolleres: those functions have two variants. with and without collation. 14:14:38 <kasei> ... proposal here is to adopt the non-collation versions? 14:14:43 <kasei> AndyS: yes 14:15:11 <AndyS> ack me 14:15:11 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask Axel about fn:string-join and to say without "collation" as with other functions. 14:15:13 <kasei> LeeF: other functions: string-join, some stuff about IRIs 14:15:25 <kasei> AxelPolleres: IRI to URI 14:15:46 <kasei> AndyS: why do you want to add str-join? what's the difference over what we've already got? 14:15:54 <kasei> AxelPolleres: I had overlooked it. 14:16:07 <kasei> AxelPolleres: str-join isn't the same as concat. adding a separator. 14:16:29 <kasei> ... we didn't have sequences in RIF. arbitrary number of parameters with a separator. 14:16:38 <kasei> AndyS: you can write the same thing with concat. 14:16:49 <kasei> ... arbitrary length list is really fixed by syntax 14:17:22 <Zakim> -cbuilara 14:17:24 <kasei> LeeF: what about the other functions? 14:17:47 <kasei> AxelPolleres: should go through them since we have them in RIF. 14:18:47 <LeeF> LeeF: what is the IRI to URI function all about? 14:18:55 <LeeF> AxelPolleres: opeates on strings and converts from URIs to IRIs 14:18:57 <kasei> ah. fixed. thanks LeeF. 14:19:03 <Zakim> +??P10 14:19:15 <AndyS> And it's not reversible? No uri to iri function in RIF? 14:19:16 <cbuilara_> cbuilara_ has joined #sparql 14:19:40 <kasei> AxelPolleres: third function is escape-html-uri 14:19:51 <kasei> ... comes from xpath/xquery functions. 14:20:06 <kasei> ... escapes non-printable characters 14:20:20 <kasei> ... for use in attribute values. 14:20:26 <Zakim> -??P10 14:20:40 <kasei> LeeF: we didn't set out trying to match RIF functions. haven't heard from anybody asking for these functions. 14:20:44 <kasei> ... inclined to leave them out. 14:20:46 <Zakim> +??P10 14:20:49 <cbuilara_> zakim, ??P10 is me 14:20:49 <Zakim> +cbuilara_; got it 14:20:59 <kasei> AxelPolleres: that's fine. 14:21:24 <kasei> AndyS: seems troublesome to have one-way functions. 14:21:33 <kasei> ... string-join isn't the same as the F&O function. 14:21:39 <kasei> ... does RIF define it to be the same as F&O? 14:22:25 <kasei> AxelPolleres: defines in terms of string-join by converting args (minus the separator) to a sequence 14:22:43 <Zakim> -cbuilara_ 14:22:46 <kasei> LeeF: I'm not hearing anybody advocating for it. 14:22:50 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Include STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE in SPARQL 1.1 Query (only the versions without collations) 14:23:07 <kasei> q+ 14:23:11 <LeeF> ack kasei 14:23:36 <LeeF> kasei: should we discuss whether this works with language literals and datatype literals? 14:24:20 <LeeF> see http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#func-starts 14:24:32 <kasei> AndyS: roughly, if the arguments are the same, you can match them. otherwise you can't. 14:25:11 <kasei> AndyS: does STR() implicitly on the args. 14:25:17 <kasei> LeeF: they return strings, though. 14:25:38 <kasei> AndyS: wold have to think about it. either it's a plain string, or it's the same as the input string. 14:25:58 <kasei> LeeF: inclination would be to have the result be the same as the input. 14:26:35 <AndyS> and consistency with CONTAINS 14:26:38 <Zakim> +??P10 14:26:44 <cbuilara_> zakim, ??P10 is me 14:26:44 <Zakim> +cbuilara_; got it 14:27:05 <kasei> LeeF: what does SUBSTR do? returns language tags? 14:27:13 <kasei> AndyS: yes, returns same form as principle argument. 14:27:19 <kasei> LeeF: so should do the same thing as SUBSTR. 14:28:13 <kasei> +1 14:28:18 <AxelPolleres> +1 14:28:22 <LeeF> (to the proposal above) 14:28:34 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Include STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE in SPARQL 1.1 Query (only the versions without collations) 14:29:03 <kasei> AndyS: will somebody do the tests? 14:29:04 <AndyS> ACTION AndyS Draft text for STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE 14:29:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-537 - Draft text for STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-10-11]. 14:29:32 <kasei> I can do the tests 14:29:45 <LeeF> ACTION: greg to write tests for STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE 14:29:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-538 - Write tests for STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE [on Gregory Williams - due 2011-10-11]. 14:30:16 <kasei> LeeF: this should be enough to reply to Jeen? 14:30:23 <kasei> AndyS: for the first part. haven't dealt with hash functions yet. 14:30:45 <kasei> LeeF: based on last week's discussion, we have concensus on keeping string functions 1-indexed. 14:31:11 <kasei> topic: hash functions 14:31:34 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JulSep/0314.html 14:31:37 <kasei> LeeF: Andy listed 3 proposals in email. 14:31:57 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JulSep/0320.html 14:32:32 <kasei> ... proposal 5 in that link was based on what xml digital signature group includes. 14:32:48 <kasei> ... discussion on whether MD5 should be included due to security concerns. 14:32:57 <kasei> sandro: xml dig sig group does not include MD5 14:33:15 <AndyS> Who actively supports any SHA2-isms? 14:33:30 <sandro> "who" in what sense? 14:33:39 <kasei> LeeF: variables on proposals being whether we include MD5, whether we include 3 variants of SHA2 14:33:41 <AndyS> "who" = WG member 14:34:06 <kasei> ... proposal 5 is what's in the draft now but without SHA-224(?) 14:34:17 <sandro> +1 SHA2 14:34:29 <pgearon> +q 14:34:48 <LeeF> ack pgearon 14:35:15 <kasei> pgearon: agree MD5 isn't secure, but run into use cases with legacy mysql code using MD5. convenient to be able to talk to those systems. 14:35:28 <kasei> ... would like to support inclusion of MD5 14:35:37 <MattPerry> Oracle Database supports MD4, MD5 and SHA1 14:36:01 <kasei> sandro: should include some note about MD5 not being secure w.r.t. cryptography, but included for non-crypto uses. 14:36:28 <kasei> LeeF: easiest proposal is to remove SHA224. small change, addresses comment, mesh well with existing practice. 14:36:31 <AndyS> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD5#Security "severe compromised" (for security) 14:36:59 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Remove SHA224 from SPARQL 1.1 Query; add text noting that MD5 shouldnot be used for cryptographic applications 14:37:05 <sandro> +1 14:37:05 <AndyS> Only 2^24.1 ops -> easy! 14:37:06 <kasei> +1 14:37:12 <AndyS> +1 14:37:25 <AxelPolleres> +1 14:37:28 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Remove SHA224 from SPARQL 1.1 Query; add text noting that MD5 shouldnot be used for cryptographic applications 14:38:04 <AndyS> ACTION AndyS Remove SHA224 from rq25; respond to JB-7 14:38:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-539 - Remove SHA224 from rq25; respond to JB-7 [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-10-11]. 14:38:35 <AxelPolleres> q+ to ask about richard's comment 14:38:48 <kasei> topic: comments 14:39:03 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres 14:39:03 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask about richard's comment 14:39:27 <kasei> AxelPolleres: what do people think about adding clarifying wording w.r.t. RDF datasets? 14:39:42 <kasei> LeeF: discussed earlier about waiting on RDF WG's discussion about datasets. 14:39:52 <AndyS> +1 to wait ; happy to improve text .... once 14:39:59 <kasei> LeeF: hold off on replying to Richard 14:40:14 <Zakim> -NickH 14:40:26 <AndyS> Owner for this comment? 14:40:32 <LeeF> close ACTION-527 14:40:32 <trackbot> ACTION-527 Let us know where the impl report code is in git and to put the generated report file somewhere in our CVS space closed 14:40:48 <kasei> topic: actions 14:40:52 <AxelPolleres> AndyS, I can take the comment. 14:41:11 <AndyS> Cool - do you want to add to wiki/Comments? 14:41:26 <kasei> AxelPolleres: would Matt and Andy be able to review document before last call? 14:41:26 <MattPerry> sure 14:41:48 <kasei> AndyS: should be able to take a look 14:41:53 <AndyS> Yes ( how much change?) 14:42:01 <LeeF> ACTION: Matthew to review the overview document after Axel sends a go-ahead 14:42:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-540 - Review the overview document after Axel sends a go-ahead [on Matthew Perry - due 2011-10-11]. 14:42:06 <LeeF> ACTION: Andy to review the overview document after Axel sends a go-ahead 14:42:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-541 - Review the overview document after Axel sends a go-ahead [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-10-11]. 14:43:22 <bglimm> How will be at ISWC? 14:43:28 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me 14:43:28 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted 14:43:36 <AxelPolleres> will be there 14:43:37 <kasei> I will 14:43:41 <AndyS> I will be at ISWC 14:43:46 <bglimm> I will 14:43:52 <AndyS> SPARQL tutorial ... 14:44:08 <MattPerry> bye 14:44:09 <Zakim> -LeeF 14:44:11 <MattPerry> \quit 14:44:13 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres 14:44:15 <Zakim> -MattPerry 14:44:15 <Zakim> -pgearon 14:44:16 <Zakim> -Olivier 14:44:17 <Zakim> -bglimm 14:44:19 <Zakim> -cbuilara_ 14:44:22 <Zakim> -Sandro 14:44:29 <Zakim> -kasei 14:44:34 <AndyS> I'll fix the tests for (removal of) SHA224 14:44:37 <Zakim> -AndyS 14:44:38 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended 14:44:40 <Zakim> Attendees were NickH, kasei, cbuilara, +1.781.899.aaaa, Sandro, AndyS, +1.603.897.aabb, MattPerry, +1.540.841.aacc, pgearon, +1.617.553.aadd, LeeF, AxelPolleres, Olivier, bglimm, 14:44:42 <Zakim> ... cbuilara_ 14:44:50 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000243