IRC log of prov-xg on 2009-12-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:48:56 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/18-prov-xg-irc
- 14:48:58 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 14:48:58 [Zakim]
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- 14:49:00 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be 98765
- 14:49:00 [Zakim]
- I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
- 14:49:01 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference
- 14:49:01 [trackbot]
- Date: 18 December 2009
- 15:42:07 [ssahoo2]
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- 15:49:35 [Irini]
- Irini has joined #prov-xg
- 15:49:50 [Irini]
- trackbot, prepare telcon
- 15:49:52 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 15:49:54 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be 98765
- 15:49:54 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
- 15:49:55 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference
- 15:49:55 [trackbot]
- Date: 18 December 2009
- 15:50:40 [Irini]
- zakim, who is here?
- 15:50:40 [Zakim]
- INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has not yet started, Irini
- 15:50:41 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see Irini, ssahoo2, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot
- 15:52:01 [YolandaG]
- YolandaG has joined #prov-xg
- 15:52:04 [Irini]
- zakim, agenda?
- 15:52:04 [Zakim]
- I see nothing on the agenda
- 15:52:29 [Irini]
- agenda+ Welcome, review of agenda (by Yolanda Gil)
- 15:52:29 [Irini]
- Discussion of new batch of use cases (led by Simon Miles and Satya Sahoo)
- 15:52:29 [Irini]
- - http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Domain_Specific_Provenance_1
- 15:52:29 [Irini]
- - http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Domain_Specific_Provenance_2
- 15:52:30 [Irini]
- - http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Use_Case_private_data_use
- 15:52:30 [Irini]
- Coverage of provenance dimensions by current use cases (led by Simon Miles and Yolanda Gil)
- 15:52:31 [Irini]
- Planning for next meeting, agenda and scribe (led by Yolanda Gil)
- 15:52:34 [Irini]
- Review of action items (by scribe)
- 15:53:05 [Irini]
- agenda+ Welcome, review of agenda (by Yolanda Gil)
- 15:53:17 [Irini]
- agenda+ Discussion of new batch of use cases (led by Simon Miles and Satya Sahoo)
- 15:53:29 [Irini]
- agenda+ http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Domain_Specific_Provenance_1
- 15:53:37 [YolandaG]
- Thanks for doing this Irini!!
- 15:53:40 [Irini]
- agenda+ http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Domain_Specific_Provenance_2
- 15:53:52 [Irini]
- agenda+ Coverage of provenance dimensions by current use cases (led by Simon Miles and Yolanda Gil)
- 15:54:03 [Irini]
- agenda+ Planning for next meeting, agenda and scribe (led by Yolanda Gil)
- 15:54:15 [Irini]
- agenda+ Review of action items (by scribe)
- 15:54:22 [Irini]
- zakim, agenda?
- 15:54:22 [Zakim]
- I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
- 15:54:23 [Zakim]
- 1. Welcome, review of agenda (by Yolanda Gil) [from Irini]
- 15:54:26 [Zakim]
- 2. Welcome, review of agenda (by Yolanda Gil) [from Irini]
- 15:54:28 [Zakim]
- 3. Discussion of new batch of use cases (led by Simon Miles and Satya Sahoo) [from Irini]
- 15:54:30 [Zakim]
- 4. http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Domain_Specific_Provenance_1 [from Irini]
- 15:54:32 [Zakim]
- 5. http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Domain_Specific_Provenance_2 [from Irini]
- 15:54:35 [Zakim]
- 6. Coverage of provenance dimensions by current use cases (led by Simon Miles and Yolanda Gil) [from Irini]
- 15:54:37 [Zakim]
- 7. Planning for next meeting, agenda and scribe (led by Yolanda Gil) [from Irini]
- 15:54:38 [Zakim]
- 8. Review of action items (by scribe) [from Irini]
- 15:56:16 [Zakim]
- INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has now started
- 15:56:23 [Zakim]
- +Irini
- 15:56:25 [Irini]
- zakim, who is here?
- 15:56:25 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Irini
- 15:56:26 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see YolandaG, Irini, ssahoo2, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot
- 15:56:51 [crunnega]
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- 15:57:47 [Zakim]
- +??P1
- 15:57:50 [Luc]
- Luc has joined #prov-xg
- 15:58:10 [Irini]
- zakim, +??P1 is Luc
- 15:58:10 [Zakim]
- sorry, Irini, I do not recognize a party named '+??P1'
- 15:58:16 [olaf]
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- 15:58:32 [Irini]
- zakim, ??P1 is Luc
- 15:58:32 [Zakim]
- +Luc; got it
- 15:58:42 [Irini]
- zakim, who is here?
- 15:58:42 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Irini, Luc
- 15:58:44 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see olaf, Luc, crunnega, YolandaG, Irini, ssahoo2, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot
- 15:58:48 [Zakim]
- +Prateek
- 15:59:17 [ivan]
- zakim, dial ivan-voip
- 15:59:17 [Zakim]
- ok, ivan; the call is being made
- 15:59:18 [Zakim]
- +Ivan
- 15:59:21 [ssahoo2]
- zakim, prateek is satya
- 15:59:22 [Zakim]
- + +1.860.673.aaaa
- 15:59:22 [Zakim]
- +satya; got it
- 15:59:59 [Zakim]
- +Betty
- 16:00:24 [jcheney]
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- 16:00:24 [Luc]
- zakim, who is here?
- 16:00:24 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Irini, Luc, satya, Ivan, +1.860.673.aaaa, Betty
- 16:00:25 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see jcheney, olaf, Luc, crunnega, YolandaG, Irini, ssahoo2, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot
- 16:00:36 [Zakim]
- +Jerry_Hobbs
- 16:00:41 [mccuskej]
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- 16:00:46 [crunnega]
- Christine on the phone too
- 16:00:48 [YolandaG]
- zakim, Jerry_Hobbs is really me
- 16:00:48 [Zakim]
- +YolandaG; got it
- 16:01:11 [Zakim]
- + +49.308.937.aabb
- 16:01:32 [mccuskej]
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- 16:02:01 [JimM]
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- 16:02:08 [Zakim]
- +??P11
- 16:02:34 [jcheney]
- zakim, ??P11 is really me
- 16:02:34 [Zakim]
- +jcheney; got it
- 16:02:56 [olaf]
- zakim, aabb is olaf
- 16:02:56 [Zakim]
- +olaf; got it
- 16:02:59 [Zakim]
- +??P12
- 16:03:10 [Irini]
- yolanda: Look at the provenance dimensions and use cases and how to organize the use cases and provenance dimensions
- 16:03:37 [Zakim]
- + +1.217.417.aacc
- 16:03:40 [Irini]
- Satya will be covering 2 use cases
- 16:03:46 [Irini]
- Biomedical one.
- 16:03:57 [ssahoo2]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Domain_Specific_Provenance_2
- 16:04:29 [mccuskej]
- same here
- 16:04:51 [afreitas]
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- 16:05:09 [mccuskej]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 16:05:09 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Irini, Luc, satya, Ivan, +1.860.673.aaaa, Betty, YolandaG, olaf, jcheney, ??P12, +1.217.417.aacc
- 16:05:25 [Irini]
- Use case inspired from experiments. Combine data from different sources and databases
- 16:05:37 [Irini]
- Manual Extraction and NLP techniques
- 16:05:40 [mccuskej]
- zakim, +1.860.673.aaaa is really me
- 16:05:40 [Zakim]
- +mccuskej; got it
- 16:05:51 [Irini]
- Basic issue is whether a particular instrument has been used.
- 16:05:54 [JimM]
- zakim, ??P12 is really me
- 16:05:54 [Zakim]
- +JimM; got it
- 16:06:17 [Irini]
- Interpretatioon query and experimentation results.
- 16:06:52 [Irini]
- Types of data: curated data with high quality. But, data from prediction algorithms does not have the same quality as the human curated data.
- 16:07:24 [Aleksey]
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- 16:07:41 [Irini]
- Examples/Sets of Goals in the Use case: exhanging data between groups, essential to understand the process and the instruments used.
- 16:08:03 [Irini]
- Get administrative data (instruments etc.)
- 16:08:14 [lkagal]
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- 16:08:19 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 16:08:57 [Zakim]
- +Marisol
- 16:09:02 [Irini]
- Standard queries in provenance scenario to be answered.
- 16:09:23 [Irini]
- Important to add information that is important to understand and interpret results
- 16:09:28 [lkagal]
- zakim, +Marisol is me
- 16:09:28 [Zakim]
- sorry, lkagal, I do not recognize a party named '+Marisol'
- 16:09:36 [YolandaG]
- q+
- 16:09:39 [jcheney]
- q+
- 16:09:46 [Irini]
- Storing and querying efficiently provenance information is a big issue
- 16:10:14 [Irini]
- yolanda:
- 16:10:57 [Irini]
- yolanda thinks that a general problem is the presence of experimental data and with no provenance such data has a limited use.
- 16:11:09 [lkagal]
- zakim, Marisol is me
- 16:11:09 [Zakim]
- +lkagal; got it
- 16:11:40 [Irini]
- Question: how do we capture and represent provenance information to be used later on.
- 16:12:20 [Irini]
- yolanda thinks that there is a more general problem that is important.
- 16:13:11 [Irini]
- yolanda's question: in terms of provenance does it mean that there is a provenance query engine that searches the web that will be looking for all experimental data with provenance and it will return these results?
- 16:13:52 [Irini]
- satya's answer: information is linked to the experimental results and the results are tracked back (provenance within a lab)
- 16:14:27 [JimM]
- a way to register to get updates to prov would address this - a trackback service
- 16:14:35 [Irini]
- yolanda: what happens in a data exchange or data integration scenario? what is the scale?
- 16:14:59 [Irini]
- Satya: scale of provenance information increases
- 16:15:33 [JimM]
- (there was an IEEE Escience 2009 presentation doing this for citations)
- 16:15:40 [Irini]
- James: results in social sciences used in policy decisions.
- 16:16:11 [Irini]
- James: do they exist regulations that must be satisfied in the biomedicine domain?
- 16:16:37 [JimM]
- Pharma and analytical chemistry labs would be under FDA and other regulations
- 16:16:43 [Irini]
- Satya: no legal requirements except the fact that journals want to have the dataset used in the papers published
- 16:17:17 [Irini]
- Yolanda: good practices exist but not in the form of regulations
- 16:17:56 [JimM]
- legally acceptable records were an interest expressed via censa.org in the context of e-notebooks
- 16:18:17 [Irini]
- Satya: argument from the community is that they want to maximize the publications before releasing the dataset
- 16:18:34 [Irini]
- Yolanda: another argument is that it is too much work to capture all the information
- 16:19:19 [Irini]
- Yolanda: as a group can we facilitate and production of provenance information?
- 16:19:32 [Irini]
- Satya: 2nd Use case
- 16:19:40 [Irini]
- Use Case from Paolo.
- 16:20:04 [Irini]
- They want to enhance the provenance information from a workflow enviromnent
- 16:21:19 [Irini]
- highlight from the use case domain specific metadata for provenance
- 16:21:32 [Irini]
- provenance trail from workflow must be extended with provenance annotations
- 16:22:09 [Irini]
- specific challenge how to best to associate unstructured provenance with domain specific provenance.
- 16:22:27 [JimM]
- the key issue with annotaions is that they need to be part of the account structure, i.e. they are things being asserted
- 16:22:58 [JimM]
- q+
- 16:23:17 [Irini]
- Satya: workflow based infrastructure associated with the domain specific vocabularies
- 16:23:41 [Irini]
- can domain specific ontologies be used to annotate the trail of workflow process?
- 16:23:41 [Luc]
- q+
- 16:24:00 [jcheney]
- q-
- 16:24:48 [Irini]
- JimM: we need to be able to have an assertion structure for provenance metadata
- 16:25:45 [Irini]
- JimM: in a provenance discussion we need to deal with named graphs, reasoning, in order to be able to answer questions related to implicit information
- 16:26:03 [Irini]
- +q
- 16:28:14 [Irini]
- JimM: we need to be able to make assertions across sources
- 16:28:58 [Irini]
- Luc: not sure he would describe those as a provenance use case. To Luc, a provenance use case should solve a query of the user.
- 16:29:29 [Irini]
- Luc: the use cases state that the users want to just query the provenance but not why.
- 16:30:34 [Irini]
- Luc: 2nd Use case: not a functional requirement for provenance
- 16:31:41 [Irini]
- Luc: Use case should not be defined in terms of provenance
- 16:32:27 [mccuskej]
- +q
- 16:33:36 [YolandaG]
- q-
- 16:33:46 [YolandaG]
- -q
- 16:34:06 [YolandaG]
- -q JimM
- 16:34:12 [YolandaG]
- -q Luc
- 16:34:39 [JimM]
- i'd be curious to hear more about why named graphs are insufficient...
- 16:36:06 [ivan]
- q+
- 16:36:59 [ivan]
- q-
- 16:37:39 [Irini]
- -Irini
- 16:37:59 [ivan]
- I guess this is the paper Irini referred to: Fundulaki, Irini, Vassilis Christophides, Giorgos Flouris, and Panagiotis Pediaditis. "On Explicit Provenance Management in RDF/S Graphs." In First Workshop on the theory and practice of provenance, TaPP'09, San Francisco, CA, James Cheney. San Francisco, CA, 2009. http://www.usenix.org/events/tapp09/tech/full_papers/pediaditis/pediaditis_html/.
- 16:38:13 [Irini]
- Yes, thanks Ivan.
- 16:39:48 [mccuskej]
- q-
- 16:40:03 [Irini]
- Satya: 3rd Use case
- 16:40:14 [Luc]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Use_Case_private_data_use
- 16:40:28 [Irini]
- Luc; 3rd USe Case [ Use of private data]
- 16:41:13 [Irini]
- Regulations for the use of private data, data protection acts
- 16:41:51 [Irini]
- the use case refers to the provenance dimensions for accountability
- 16:42:13 [Irini]
- processes use information compatible with rules/regulations
- 16:42:25 [Irini]
- able to audit systems that process private information.
- 16:42:47 [Irini]
- check whether the use of data was legal
- 16:43:09 [Irini]
- whether the colleciton of data was lawful
- 16:44:24 [Zakim]
- -[IPcaller]
- 16:45:08 [Irini]
- the problems with the scenario:metadata representation (all possible notions: tasks, obligations, etc.)
- 16:45:13 [Irini]
- for this SW technologies
- 16:45:58 [Irini]
- another problem: provenance management: processing has to be documented so there is the need for a common documentation and provenance models (interoperability issue)
- 16:46:15 [Irini]
- auditing the provenance in order to perform the auditing task
- 16:46:27 [JimM]
- q+
- 16:46:30 [Irini]
- the results of the audit can be trusted if the provenance can be trusted
- 16:46:32 [Irini]
- -Irini
- 16:46:34 [Irini]
- -q
- 16:46:50 [YolandaG]
- q+
- 16:46:51 [Irini]
- cryptography hashes as part of provenance
- 16:47:10 [Irini]
- checking the provenance against rules and this is a provenance use issue
- 16:47:15 [crunnega]
- +q
- 16:48:24 [Irini]
- JimM: the audit can be done only if provenance is reconstructed
- 16:48:45 [Irini]
- trail is going to be broken by the different playes
- 16:48:47 [Irini]
- players
- 16:48:54 [Irini]
- zakim, who is making noise?
- 16:48:58 [crunnega]
- There may be a business advantage in being able to reassure customers that their priviacy policies and practices can be verified
- 16:49:05 [Zakim]
- Irini, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luc (4%)
- 16:49:39 [ssahoo2]
- q+
- 16:50:19 [Irini]
- provenace could give some hints on the problem but not explanation of what has happened.
- 16:50:46 [Zakim]
- -mccuskej
- 16:51:29 [Irini]
- partial provenance could nail down where the leak has hasppened
- 16:51:42 [Irini]
- (from JimM)
- 16:52:52 [Irini]
- Yolanda thinks is very controvercial to create a use case to highlight compliance
- 16:53:47 [Irini]
- Luc; the primary dimension is accountability which is not necessarily compliance.
- 16:54:04 [JimM]
- q+
- 16:54:19 [Irini]
- Do not want to enforce compliance just be able to have accountability
- 16:54:52 [Irini]
- A different use case: compliance to processes
- 16:55:27 [pgroth]
- pgroth has joined #prov-xg
- 16:56:18 [Irini]
- crunnega: number of use case scenarios for privacy that could use provenance
- 16:58:01 [Irini]
- Personal Data/Private Data equivalent terms.
- 16:58:12 [crunnega]
- q-
- 16:58:16 [jcheney]
- = confidential data?
- 16:58:19 [YolandaG]
- q-
- 16:59:34 [ssahoo2]
- q-
- 16:59:40 [Irini]
- Yolanda takes the floor:
- 16:59:41 [JimM]
- q-
- 17:00:00 [Irini]
- Yolanda plans to talk to Simon to go through provenance dimensions and use cases
- 17:00:20 [Irini]
- Invitation to members to join and see the coverage of use cases
- 17:00:30 [Irini]
- Missing half of the expected set
- 17:01:52 [Irini]
- F2F meeting: most popular venue WWW, 2nd Meeting in NYC
- 17:01:52 [YolandaG]
- http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43897/FindingTimeforF2F/results
- 17:02:39 [Irini]
- Considering both venues WWW, IPAW
- 17:03:34 [mccuskej]
- I can't log into that page.
- 17:03:36 [JimM]
- +1 for two mtgs
- 17:03:43 [Irini]
- Possibility to join on phone.
- 17:04:18 [ivan]
- i do
- 17:06:22 [Irini]
- end of April will be reasonable. IPAW could be a good idea.
- 17:06:39 [Irini]
- Next Meeting, January 8th
- 17:07:05 [Zakim]
- -satya
- 17:07:07 [Zakim]
- -JimM
- 17:07:07 [Zakim]
- - +1.217.417.aacc
- 17:07:08 [Zakim]
- -olaf
- 17:07:08 [Zakim]
- -lkagal
- 17:07:10 [Zakim]
- -Irini
- 17:07:10 [Zakim]
- -Betty
- 17:07:11 [Zakim]
- -jcheney
- 17:07:12 [Zakim]
- -Ivan
- 17:07:17 [lkagal]
- lkagal has left #prov-xg
- 17:07:18 [mccuskej]
- mccuskej has left #prov-xg
- 17:07:33 [Zakim]
- -Luc
- 17:07:51 [Irini]
- trackbot, end telcon
- 17:07:51 [trackbot]
- Zakim, list attendees
- 17:07:51 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been Irini, Luc, Ivan, satya, Betty, YolandaG, +49.308.937.aabb, jcheney, olaf, +1.217.417.aacc, mccuskej, JimM, [IPcaller], lkagal
- 17:07:52 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 17:07:52 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/18-prov-xg-minutes.html trackbot
- 17:07:53 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 17:07:53 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items