IRC log of prov-xg on 2009-12-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:48:56 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #prov-xg
14:48:56 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/18-prov-xg-irc
14:48:58 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:48:58 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #prov-xg
14:49:00 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 98765
14:49:00 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:49:01 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference
14:49:01 [trackbot]
Date: 18 December 2009
15:42:07 [ssahoo2]
ssahoo2 has joined #prov-xg
15:49:35 [Irini]
Irini has joined #prov-xg
15:49:50 [Irini]
trackbot, prepare telcon
15:49:52 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:49:54 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 98765
15:49:54 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
15:49:55 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference
15:49:55 [trackbot]
Date: 18 December 2009
15:50:40 [Irini]
zakim, who is here?
15:50:40 [Zakim]
INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has not yet started, Irini
15:50:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Irini, ssahoo2, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot
15:52:01 [YolandaG]
YolandaG has joined #prov-xg
15:52:04 [Irini]
zakim, agenda?
15:52:04 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
15:52:29 [Irini]
agenda+ Welcome, review of agenda (by Yolanda Gil)
15:52:29 [Irini]
Discussion of new batch of use cases (led by Simon Miles and Satya Sahoo)
15:52:29 [Irini]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Domain_Specific_Provenance_1
15:52:29 [Irini]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Domain_Specific_Provenance_2
15:52:30 [Irini]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Use_Case_private_data_use
15:52:30 [Irini]
Coverage of provenance dimensions by current use cases (led by Simon Miles and Yolanda Gil)
15:52:31 [Irini]
Planning for next meeting, agenda and scribe (led by Yolanda Gil)
15:52:34 [Irini]
Review of action items (by scribe)
15:53:05 [Irini]
agenda+ Welcome, review of agenda (by Yolanda Gil)
15:53:17 [Irini]
agenda+ Discussion of new batch of use cases (led by Simon Miles and Satya Sahoo)
15:53:29 [Irini]
agenda+ http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Domain_Specific_Provenance_1
15:53:37 [YolandaG]
Thanks for doing this Irini!!
15:53:40 [Irini]
agenda+ http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Domain_Specific_Provenance_2
15:53:52 [Irini]
agenda+ Coverage of provenance dimensions by current use cases (led by Simon Miles and Yolanda Gil)
15:54:03 [Irini]
agenda+ Planning for next meeting, agenda and scribe (led by Yolanda Gil)
15:54:15 [Irini]
agenda+ Review of action items (by scribe)
15:54:22 [Irini]
zakim, agenda?
15:54:22 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
15:54:23 [Zakim]
1. Welcome, review of agenda (by Yolanda Gil) [from Irini]
15:54:26 [Zakim]
2. Welcome, review of agenda (by Yolanda Gil) [from Irini]
15:54:28 [Zakim]
3. Discussion of new batch of use cases (led by Simon Miles and Satya Sahoo) [from Irini]
15:54:30 [Zakim]
4. http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Domain_Specific_Provenance_1 [from Irini]
15:54:32 [Zakim]
5. http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Domain_Specific_Provenance_2 [from Irini]
15:54:35 [Zakim]
6. Coverage of provenance dimensions by current use cases (led by Simon Miles and Yolanda Gil) [from Irini]
15:54:37 [Zakim]
7. Planning for next meeting, agenda and scribe (led by Yolanda Gil) [from Irini]
15:54:38 [Zakim]
8. Review of action items (by scribe) [from Irini]
15:56:16 [Zakim]
INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has now started
15:56:23 [Zakim]
+Irini
15:56:25 [Irini]
zakim, who is here?
15:56:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Irini
15:56:26 [Zakim]
On IRC I see YolandaG, Irini, ssahoo2, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot
15:56:51 [crunnega]
crunnega has joined #prov-xg
15:57:47 [Zakim]
+??P1
15:57:50 [Luc]
Luc has joined #prov-xg
15:58:10 [Irini]
zakim, +??P1 is Luc
15:58:10 [Zakim]
sorry, Irini, I do not recognize a party named '+??P1'
15:58:16 [olaf]
olaf has joined #prov-xg
15:58:32 [Irini]
zakim, ??P1 is Luc
15:58:32 [Zakim]
+Luc; got it
15:58:42 [Irini]
zakim, who is here?
15:58:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Irini, Luc
15:58:44 [Zakim]
On IRC I see olaf, Luc, crunnega, YolandaG, Irini, ssahoo2, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot
15:58:48 [Zakim]
+Prateek
15:59:17 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:59:17 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:59:18 [Zakim]
+Ivan
15:59:21 [ssahoo2]
zakim, prateek is satya
15:59:22 [Zakim]
+ +1.860.673.aaaa
15:59:22 [Zakim]
+satya; got it
15:59:59 [Zakim]
+Betty
16:00:24 [jcheney]
jcheney has joined #prov-xg
16:00:24 [Luc]
zakim, who is here?
16:00:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Irini, Luc, satya, Ivan, +1.860.673.aaaa, Betty
16:00:25 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jcheney, olaf, Luc, crunnega, YolandaG, Irini, ssahoo2, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot
16:00:36 [Zakim]
+Jerry_Hobbs
16:00:41 [mccuskej]
mccuskej has joined #prov-xg
16:00:46 [crunnega]
Christine on the phone too
16:00:48 [YolandaG]
zakim, Jerry_Hobbs is really me
16:00:48 [Zakim]
+YolandaG; got it
16:01:11 [Zakim]
+ +49.308.937.aabb
16:01:32 [mccuskej]
mccuskej has joined #prov-xg
16:02:01 [JimM]
JimM has joined #prov-xg
16:02:08 [Zakim]
+??P11
16:02:34 [jcheney]
zakim, ??P11 is really me
16:02:34 [Zakim]
+jcheney; got it
16:02:56 [olaf]
zakim, aabb is olaf
16:02:56 [Zakim]
+olaf; got it
16:02:59 [Zakim]
+??P12
16:03:10 [Irini]
yolanda: Look at the provenance dimensions and use cases and how to organize the use cases and provenance dimensions
16:03:37 [Zakim]
+ +1.217.417.aacc
16:03:40 [Irini]
Satya will be covering 2 use cases
16:03:46 [Irini]
Biomedical one.
16:03:57 [ssahoo2]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Domain_Specific_Provenance_2
16:04:29 [mccuskej]
same here
16:04:51 [afreitas]
afreitas has joined #prov-xg
16:05:09 [mccuskej]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Irini, Luc, satya, Ivan, +1.860.673.aaaa, Betty, YolandaG, olaf, jcheney, ??P12, +1.217.417.aacc
16:05:25 [Irini]
Use case inspired from experiments. Combine data from different sources and databases
16:05:37 [Irini]
Manual Extraction and NLP techniques
16:05:40 [mccuskej]
zakim, +1.860.673.aaaa is really me
16:05:40 [Zakim]
+mccuskej; got it
16:05:51 [Irini]
Basic issue is whether a particular instrument has been used.
16:05:54 [JimM]
zakim, ??P12 is really me
16:05:54 [Zakim]
+JimM; got it
16:06:17 [Irini]
Interpretatioon query and experimentation results.
16:06:52 [Irini]
Types of data: curated data with high quality. But, data from prediction algorithms does not have the same quality as the human curated data.
16:07:24 [Aleksey]
Aleksey has joined #prov-xg
16:07:41 [Irini]
Examples/Sets of Goals in the Use case: exhanging data between groups, essential to understand the process and the instruments used.
16:08:03 [Irini]
Get administrative data (instruments etc.)
16:08:14 [lkagal]
lkagal has joined #prov-xg
16:08:19 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:08:57 [Zakim]
+Marisol
16:09:02 [Irini]
Standard queries in provenance scenario to be answered.
16:09:23 [Irini]
Important to add information that is important to understand and interpret results
16:09:28 [lkagal]
zakim, +Marisol is me
16:09:28 [Zakim]
sorry, lkagal, I do not recognize a party named '+Marisol'
16:09:36 [YolandaG]
q+
16:09:39 [jcheney]
q+
16:09:46 [Irini]
Storing and querying efficiently provenance information is a big issue
16:10:14 [Irini]
yolanda:
16:10:57 [Irini]
yolanda thinks that a general problem is the presence of experimental data and with no provenance such data has a limited use.
16:11:09 [lkagal]
zakim, Marisol is me
16:11:09 [Zakim]
+lkagal; got it
16:11:40 [Irini]
Question: how do we capture and represent provenance information to be used later on.
16:12:20 [Irini]
yolanda thinks that there is a more general problem that is important.
16:13:11 [Irini]
yolanda's question: in terms of provenance does it mean that there is a provenance query engine that searches the web that will be looking for all experimental data with provenance and it will return these results?
16:13:52 [Irini]
satya's answer: information is linked to the experimental results and the results are tracked back (provenance within a lab)
16:14:27 [JimM]
a way to register to get updates to prov would address this - a trackback service
16:14:35 [Irini]
yolanda: what happens in a data exchange or data integration scenario? what is the scale?
16:14:59 [Irini]
Satya: scale of provenance information increases
16:15:33 [JimM]
(there was an IEEE Escience 2009 presentation doing this for citations)
16:15:40 [Irini]
James: results in social sciences used in policy decisions.
16:16:11 [Irini]
James: do they exist regulations that must be satisfied in the biomedicine domain?
16:16:37 [JimM]
Pharma and analytical chemistry labs would be under FDA and other regulations
16:16:43 [Irini]
Satya: no legal requirements except the fact that journals want to have the dataset used in the papers published
16:17:17 [Irini]
Yolanda: good practices exist but not in the form of regulations
16:17:56 [JimM]
legally acceptable records were an interest expressed via censa.org in the context of e-notebooks
16:18:17 [Irini]
Satya: argument from the community is that they want to maximize the publications before releasing the dataset
16:18:34 [Irini]
Yolanda: another argument is that it is too much work to capture all the information
16:19:19 [Irini]
Yolanda: as a group can we facilitate and production of provenance information?
16:19:32 [Irini]
Satya: 2nd Use case
16:19:40 [Irini]
Use Case from Paolo.
16:20:04 [Irini]
They want to enhance the provenance information from a workflow enviromnent
16:21:19 [Irini]
highlight from the use case domain specific metadata for provenance
16:21:32 [Irini]
provenance trail from workflow must be extended with provenance annotations
16:22:09 [Irini]
specific challenge how to best to associate unstructured provenance with domain specific provenance.
16:22:27 [JimM]
the key issue with annotaions is that they need to be part of the account structure, i.e. they are things being asserted
16:22:58 [JimM]
q+
16:23:17 [Irini]
Satya: workflow based infrastructure associated with the domain specific vocabularies
16:23:41 [Irini]
can domain specific ontologies be used to annotate the trail of workflow process?
16:23:41 [Luc]
q+
16:24:00 [jcheney]
q-
16:24:48 [Irini]
JimM: we need to be able to have an assertion structure for provenance metadata
16:25:45 [Irini]
JimM: in a provenance discussion we need to deal with named graphs, reasoning, in order to be able to answer questions related to implicit information
16:26:03 [Irini]
+q
16:28:14 [Irini]
JimM: we need to be able to make assertions across sources
16:28:58 [Irini]
Luc: not sure he would describe those as a provenance use case. To Luc, a provenance use case should solve a query of the user.
16:29:29 [Irini]
Luc: the use cases state that the users want to just query the provenance but not why.
16:30:34 [Irini]
Luc: 2nd Use case: not a functional requirement for provenance
16:31:41 [Irini]
Luc: Use case should not be defined in terms of provenance
16:32:27 [mccuskej]
+q
16:33:36 [YolandaG]
q-
16:33:46 [YolandaG]
-q
16:34:06 [YolandaG]
-q JimM
16:34:12 [YolandaG]
-q Luc
16:34:39 [JimM]
i'd be curious to hear more about why named graphs are insufficient...
16:36:06 [ivan]
q+
16:36:59 [ivan]
q-
16:37:39 [Irini]
-Irini
16:37:59 [ivan]
I guess this is the paper Irini referred to: Fundulaki, Irini, Vassilis Christophides, Giorgos Flouris, and Panagiotis Pediaditis. "On Explicit Provenance Management in RDF/S Graphs." In First Workshop on the theory and practice of provenance, TaPP'09, San Francisco, CA, James Cheney. San Francisco, CA, 2009. http://www.usenix.org/events/tapp09/tech/full_papers/pediaditis/pediaditis_html/.
16:38:13 [Irini]
Yes, thanks Ivan.
16:39:48 [mccuskej]
q-
16:40:03 [Irini]
Satya: 3rd Use case
16:40:14 [Luc]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Use_Case_private_data_use
16:40:28 [Irini]
Luc; 3rd USe Case [ Use of private data]
16:41:13 [Irini]
Regulations for the use of private data, data protection acts
16:41:51 [Irini]
the use case refers to the provenance dimensions for accountability
16:42:13 [Irini]
processes use information compatible with rules/regulations
16:42:25 [Irini]
able to audit systems that process private information.
16:42:47 [Irini]
check whether the use of data was legal
16:43:09 [Irini]
whether the colleciton of data was lawful
16:44:24 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
16:45:08 [Irini]
the problems with the scenario:metadata representation (all possible notions: tasks, obligations, etc.)
16:45:13 [Irini]
for this SW technologies
16:45:58 [Irini]
another problem: provenance management: processing has to be documented so there is the need for a common documentation and provenance models (interoperability issue)
16:46:15 [Irini]
auditing the provenance in order to perform the auditing task
16:46:27 [JimM]
q+
16:46:30 [Irini]
the results of the audit can be trusted if the provenance can be trusted
16:46:32 [Irini]
-Irini
16:46:34 [Irini]
-q
16:46:50 [YolandaG]
q+
16:46:51 [Irini]
cryptography hashes as part of provenance
16:47:10 [Irini]
checking the provenance against rules and this is a provenance use issue
16:47:15 [crunnega]
+q
16:48:24 [Irini]
JimM: the audit can be done only if provenance is reconstructed
16:48:45 [Irini]
trail is going to be broken by the different playes
16:48:47 [Irini]
players
16:48:54 [Irini]
zakim, who is making noise?
16:48:58 [crunnega]
There may be a business advantage in being able to reassure customers that their priviacy policies and practices can be verified
16:49:05 [Zakim]
Irini, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luc (4%)
16:49:39 [ssahoo2]
q+
16:50:19 [Irini]
provenace could give some hints on the problem but not explanation of what has happened.
16:50:46 [Zakim]
-mccuskej
16:51:29 [Irini]
partial provenance could nail down where the leak has hasppened
16:51:42 [Irini]
(from JimM)
16:52:52 [Irini]
Yolanda thinks is very controvercial to create a use case to highlight compliance
16:53:47 [Irini]
Luc; the primary dimension is accountability which is not necessarily compliance.
16:54:04 [JimM]
q+
16:54:19 [Irini]
Do not want to enforce compliance just be able to have accountability
16:54:52 [Irini]
A different use case: compliance to processes
16:55:27 [pgroth]
pgroth has joined #prov-xg
16:56:18 [Irini]
crunnega: number of use case scenarios for privacy that could use provenance
16:58:01 [Irini]
Personal Data/Private Data equivalent terms.
16:58:12 [crunnega]
q-
16:58:16 [jcheney]
= confidential data?
16:58:19 [YolandaG]
q-
16:59:34 [ssahoo2]
q-
16:59:40 [Irini]
Yolanda takes the floor:
16:59:41 [JimM]
q-
17:00:00 [Irini]
Yolanda plans to talk to Simon to go through provenance dimensions and use cases
17:00:20 [Irini]
Invitation to members to join and see the coverage of use cases
17:00:30 [Irini]
Missing half of the expected set
17:01:52 [Irini]
F2F meeting: most popular venue WWW, 2nd Meeting in NYC
17:01:52 [YolandaG]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43897/FindingTimeforF2F/results
17:02:39 [Irini]
Considering both venues WWW, IPAW
17:03:34 [mccuskej]
I can't log into that page.
17:03:36 [JimM]
+1 for two mtgs
17:03:43 [Irini]
Possibility to join on phone.
17:04:18 [ivan]
i do
17:06:22 [Irini]
end of April will be reasonable. IPAW could be a good idea.
17:06:39 [Irini]
Next Meeting, January 8th
17:07:05 [Zakim]
-satya
17:07:07 [Zakim]
-JimM
17:07:07 [Zakim]
- +1.217.417.aacc
17:07:08 [Zakim]
-olaf
17:07:08 [Zakim]
-lkagal
17:07:10 [Zakim]
-Irini
17:07:10 [Zakim]
-Betty
17:07:11 [Zakim]
-jcheney
17:07:12 [Zakim]
-Ivan
17:07:17 [lkagal]
lkagal has left #prov-xg
17:07:18 [mccuskej]
mccuskej has left #prov-xg
17:07:33 [Zakim]
-Luc
17:07:51 [Irini]
trackbot, end telcon
17:07:51 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
17:07:51 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Irini, Luc, Ivan, satya, Betty, YolandaG, +49.308.937.aabb, jcheney, olaf, +1.217.417.aacc, mccuskej, JimM, [IPcaller], lkagal
17:07:52 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:07:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/18-prov-xg-minutes.html trackbot
17:07:53 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
17:07:53 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items