IRC log of prov-xg on 2009-12-04
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 16:04:05 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #prov-xg
- 16:04:05 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/12/04-prov-xg-irc
- 16:04:07 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 16:04:09 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be 98765
- 16:04:09 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM scheduled to start 4 minutes ago
- 16:04:10 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference
- 16:04:10 [trackbot]
- Date: 04 December 2009
- 16:04:21 [ivan]
- zakim, dial ivan-voip
- 16:04:21 [Zakim]
- ok, ivan; the call is being made
- 16:04:37 [Paulo]
- Paulo has joined #prov-xg
- 16:04:43 [Deborah]
- +q - plans for calls for the rest of the month
- 16:04:58 [ivan]
- zakim, who is here?
- 16:04:58 [Zakim]
- INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has not yet started, ivan
- 16:04:59 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see Paulo, RRSAgent, Zakim, afreitas, Paolo, Luc, smiles, lkagal, Aleksey, Deborah, olaf, jcheney, pgroth, jmccuske, michaelp, YolandaG, ssahoo2, ivan, trackbot
- 16:05:04 [ivan]
- sigh...
- 16:05:33 [ivan]
- zakim, this is inc_provxg
- 16:05:33 [Zakim]
- ok, ivan; that matches INC_PROVXG()11:00AM
- 16:05:48 [Zakim]
- + +1.915.747.aahh
- 16:05:58 [ivan]
- zakim, who is here?
- 16:05:58 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Prateek, ??P2, ??P1, +1.518.276.aaaa, +1.860.995.aabb, Jerry_Hobbs, ??P12, ??P10, +1.781.646.aacc, +49.302.093.aadd, +1.614.592.aaee, +0238059aaff, ??P24
- 16:06:04 [Zakim]
- ... (muted), ??P25, +1.609.462.aagg, Ivan, ??P28, +1.915.747.aahh
- 16:06:05 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see Paulo, RRSAgent, Zakim, afreitas, Paolo, Luc, smiles, lkagal, Aleksey, Deborah, olaf, jcheney, pgroth, jmccuske, michaelp, YolandaG, ssahoo2, ivan, trackbot
- 16:06:11 [YolandaG]
- Zakim, Jerry_Hobbs is really me
- 16:06:12 [pgroth]
- Zakim, ??P1 is pgroth
- 16:06:14 [Zakim]
- +YolandaG; got it
- 16:06:16 [Zakim]
- I already had ??P1 as ??P1, pgroth
- 16:06:22 [Zakim]
- - +1.860.995.aabb
- 16:06:27 [michaelp]
- +1.614.592.aaee is really michaelp
- 16:06:40 [Zakim]
- + +1.860.995.aaii
- 16:06:45 [ludaesch]
- ludaesch has joined #prov-xg
- 16:07:01 [ssahoo2]
- zakim, Prateek is really me
- 16:07:01 [Zakim]
- +ssahoo2; got it
- 16:07:11 [jmccuske]
- +1.860.995.aaii is really me
- 16:07:16 [pgroth]
- Zakim, ??P1 is really pgroth
- 16:07:16 [Zakim]
- +pgroth; got it
- 16:07:30 [Zakim]
- -??P10
- 16:07:47 [Paolo]
- ok no problem that's a good answer :-)
- 16:07:48 [jmccuske]
- +1.860.995.aaii is really jmccuske
- 16:07:52 [lkagal]
- yolanda: discuss use cases
- 16:07:58 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 16:08:15 [Zakim]
- + +1.530.554.aajj
- 16:08:42 [jmccuske]
- Zakim, +1.860.995.aaii is really jmccuske
- 16:08:42 [Zakim]
- +jmccuske; got it
- 16:08:47 [Aleksey]
- Zakim, +[IPcaller] is really me
- 16:08:47 [Zakim]
- sorry, Aleksey, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
- 16:09:08 [lkagal]
- yolanda: several usecases on escience, several aspects of dimensions that do not show up in usecases. People have offered to add usecases in the next few days.
- 16:09:22 [olaf]
- olaf has joined #prov-xg
- 16:10:22 [lkagal]
- yolanda: add comments to discussion pages of wiki. Maybe have usecase editors to work with proposer to refine the usecase, make sure there is enough detail, or merge two related usecases.
- 16:10:54 [lkagal]
- yolanda: any volunteers for usecase editors ?
- 16:11:22 [Luc]
- I am not sure where we're supposed to comment? on each use case page itself?
- 16:11:47 [lkagal]
- yolanda: a glossary of terms to keep track of terms that we use
- 16:12:11 [lkagal]
- ... going through each use case.
- 16:12:59 [lkagal]
- yolanda: 1. Simple Trustworthiness Assessment - Olaf is proposer
- 16:14:21 [Luc]
- q+
- 16:14:29 [smiles]
- q+
- 16:14:33 [pgroth]
- luc, i think, if you have comments on a use case you can do that in the discussion section of the use case
- 16:14:58 [Luc]
- q+
- 16:15:52 [Deborah]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Provenance_Dimensions
- 16:16:51 [lkagal]
- Olaf: Alice publishes Bob's and Carol's data, she is not the provider of the data. So there are different trust relations that the consumer/user of the data, Eve, uses to decide whether or not to use the data. Dimensions: Attribution (Alice provides and manipulates data, Bob and Carol who provide the data), Publication (how to publish this provenance info), Use (Understanding?), Trust (application filters data based on trust).
- 16:17:08 [michaelp]
- zakim, +1.614.592.aaee is really michaelp
- 16:17:08 [Zakim]
- +michaelp; got it
- 16:18:41 [lkagal]
- Luc: the use case should be expressed without the concept of provenance.
- 16:19:32 [jcheney]
- q+
- 16:20:22 [michaelp]
- michaelp has left #prov-xg
- 16:20:47 [lkagal]
- Luc: this usecase is good because its connected to different dimensions and is strongly related to Linked Data. There is a lot of interest in RDF community to associate triples with provenance and I wonder if this usecase is influenced by that. Should we try to express usecases without such a dependence on technology and without assuming the provenance concept ?
- 16:21:18 [lkagal]
- (Luc, I'm not sure I captured all your comments/questions, pls add anything I missed)
- 16:21:19 [michaelp]
- michaelp has joined #prov-xg
- 16:23:45 [lkagal]
- Simon: One of the purposes of usecase is to find technical challenges. It would be good to if the owners of each use case added the technical challenges for each usecase.
- 16:25:29 [lkagal]
- jcheney: I agree that provenance shouldn't assumed in the use case. Is there a difference between trust and filtering in this use case ?
- 16:26:04 [lkagal]
- olaf: consumer makes the judgement whether to filter or not but uses information related to provenance to make that decision
- 16:26:06 [Paulo]
- q+
- 16:26:17 [lkagal]
- ack Luc
- 16:26:20 [lkagal]
- ack smiles
- 16:26:26 [lkagal]
- ack jcheney
- 16:27:11 [lkagal]
- yolanda: maybe usecase could talk about trustworthiness assessment and then talk about how it would apply to different domains - LOD, escience etc.
- 16:27:44 [lkagal]
- olaf: Linked Data Timeliness. A dataset that changes frequently. Two publishers use this data to make and publish their own dataset.
- 16:29:08 [michaelp]
- zakim, who is there
- 16:29:08 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'who is there', michaelp
- 16:29:12 [Paolo]
- q+
- 16:29:43 [michaelp]
- zakim, who is here
- 16:29:43 [Zakim]
- michaelp, you need to end that query with '?'
- 16:29:47 [michaelp]
- zakim, who is here?
- 16:29:47 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ssahoo2, ??P2, pgroth, +1.518.276.aaaa, YolandaG, ??P12, +1.781.646.aacc, +49.302.093.aadd, michaelp, +0238059aaff, ??P24 (muted), ??P25, +1.609.462.aagg, Ivan,
- 16:29:50 [Zakim]
- ... ??P28, +1.915.747.aahh, jmccuske, [IPcaller], +1.530.554.aajj
- 16:29:51 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see michaelp, olaf, ludaesch, Paulo, RRSAgent, Zakim, afreitas, Paolo, smiles, lkagal, Aleksey, Deborah, jcheney, pgroth, jmccuske, YolandaG, ssahoo2, ivan, trackbot
- 16:30:16 [Paolo]
- q?
- 16:30:57 [lkagal]
- olaf: Application accesses data provided by these publishers and uses provenance such as time to decide whether to use this data. Dimensions: process, creation time, data accessed time (new one) how and when data was accessed includes when publisher accessed the data, republishing, trust (filters data based on timeliness).
- 16:31:40 [pgroth]
- olaf, why isn't this timeliness problem fall under the updates category?
- 16:31:52 [lkagal]
- Paulo: +1 Luc. The usecase does not necessarily highlight problems.
- 16:32:29 [ssahoo2]
- +1 Paulo
- 16:32:52 [lkagal]
- Paulo, I missed that, please could you add it.
- 16:33:31 [pgroth]
- +q
- 16:33:54 [lkagal]
- Paolo: Strong focus on LOD, maybe not required. Should generalize the usecase.
- 16:34:28 [lkagal]
- Paul: Olaf, you want to introduce another dimension of data access. Why does update not include this ?
- 16:34:35 [lkagal]
- ack paulo
- 16:34:39 [lkagal]
- ack paolo
- 16:34:43 [pgroth]
- ack pgroth
- 16:35:15 [michaelp]
- q+
- 16:35:30 [lkagal]
- Olaf: The provider of the data may not be the creator, update is related to creation. But the provider is not creating it but accessing it for publishing.
- 16:36:53 [lkagal]
- Yolanda: Time is only one aspect of this, there are other aspects.
- 16:36:56 [Paulo]
- understanding trust itself may be a distraction for the group to understand the role of provenance in support of trust
- 16:38:06 [Zakim]
- -[IPcaller]
- 16:38:22 [lkagal]
- michaelp: usecase is about reliability assumption and not so much about timeliness.
- 16:38:33 [Zakim]
- +??P17
- 16:39:14 [olaf]
- q+
- 16:39:24 [lkagal]
- Yolanda: We need a glossary of terms. Reliability means something different to me. Time is crucial to provenance and we need to highlight it somehow.
- 16:39:33 [lkagal]
- ack michaelp
- 16:40:31 [lkagal]
- Olaf: I agree with Michael. Similar to the trust case, we had a model to calculate trust in this case we have a model to calculate timeliness.
- 16:40:37 [lkagal]
- acl olaf
- 16:40:42 [lkagal]
- ack olaf
- 16:41:52 [lkagal]
- Simon: Result Differences use case. Process is imp thing. Management issue - large historic data, imperfection and debugging.
- 16:43:15 [lkagal]
- yolanda: is there a usecase where comparing different results would matter.
- 16:43:43 [lkagal]
- ... in a different domain
- 16:44:49 [pgroth]
- +q
- 16:44:54 [Paolo]
- :-)
- 16:45:39 [pgroth]
- ack pgroth
- 16:46:59 [lkagal]
- pgroth: Blogosphere usecase. Aggregating blogposts. Question: when you aggregate diff posts and discussions, how do you traceback to where the original data came from.
- 16:47:42 [ssahoo2]
- q+
- 16:47:53 [lkagal]
- Yolanda: content evolution, republishes, who is responsible for publishing, is it a requirement, can someone reconstruct the provenance.
- 16:48:40 [lkagal]
- pgroth: republishing, interoperability
- 16:49:31 [pgroth]
- q+
- 16:50:02 [Paolo]
- q+
- 16:50:10 [lkagal]
- Mark: Re cross references mostly circular references. I'll post related paper.
- 16:50:34 [lkagal]
- ... I'll add this use case
- 16:51:23 [pgroth]
- ack pgroth
- 16:52:33 [ivan]
- zakim, who is noisy?
- 16:52:44 [Zakim]
- ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: YolandaG (23%), +1.781.646.aacc (27%), +1.609.462.aagg (56%)
- 16:54:10 [lkagal]
- Yolanda: timeliness is not a matter of publishing but during the use itself, how provenance is used by consumer.
- 16:55:01 [ssahoo2]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Talk:Provenance_Dimensions
- 16:55:14 [lkagal]
- ssahoo: For dimensions I had suggested agents and adding temporal and spatial dimensions.
- 16:55:40 [pgroth]
- q+
- 16:55:50 [ssahoo2]
- ack ssahoo
- 16:55:53 [lkagal]
- Paolo: Track how a community came to a scientific conclusion. Should there be another use case.
- 16:55:57 [lkagal]
- ack Paolo
- 16:56:57 [ssahoo2]
- q+
- 16:57:27 [pgroth]
- ack pgroth
- 16:57:36 [lkagal]
- pgroth: Having a scientific aggregation use case would be good to have. Provenance of blogosphere, tweets, and scientific aggregation are related and might lead to a common/general use case.
- 16:58:00 [lkagal]
- Yolanda: volunteers for usecase editors ?
- 16:58:21 [ssahoo2]
- I will be happy to help in editing the use cases
- 16:58:24 [lkagal]
- Simon: yes
- 16:58:52 [lkagal]
- Paolo: yes
- 16:59:17 [jmccuske]
- q+
- 16:59:25 [ssahoo2]
- ack ssahoo
- 16:59:33 [pgroth]
- q+
- 16:59:34 [lkagal]
- ssahoo: will we be discussing dimensions ?
- 16:59:53 [lkagal]
- Yolanda: lets work on usecases first and then refine dimensions
- 17:00:16 [pgroth]
- can we talk about the dimensions on the email list?
- 17:00:18 [lkagal]
- Yolanda: glossary editor ?
- 17:00:19 [pgroth]
- ack pgroth
- 17:00:28 [Luc]
- Luc has joined #prov-xg
- 17:00:47 [Luc]
- yolanda: should we raise the issue of a face 2 face meeting?
- 17:00:52 [Luc]
- q+
- 17:01:26 [ssahoo2]
- Paul: we are posting comments on the dimensions in the discussion tab
- 17:01:28 [Zakim]
- -pgroth
- 17:01:35 [pgroth]
- that's true
- 17:01:42 [pgroth]
- so a good place to do it
- 17:02:47 [ssahoo2]
- we can always have complementary discussions on the mailing list
- 17:02:56 [Zakim]
- -ssahoo2
- 17:02:57 [Zakim]
- -jmccuske
- 17:02:57 [Zakim]
- - +0238059aaff
- 17:02:57 [ivan]
- zakim, drop me
- 17:02:58 [Zakim]
- Ivan is being disconnected
- 17:02:58 [Zakim]
- -Ivan
- 17:02:58 [Zakim]
- -??P28
- 17:02:59 [Deborah]
- bye
- 17:02:59 [Zakim]
- -??P24
- 17:02:59 [pgroth]
- pgroth has left #prov-xg
- 17:03:00 [afreitas]
- afreitas has left #prov-xg
- 17:03:00 [Zakim]
- -??P12
- 17:03:02 [Zakim]
- -??P25
- 17:03:05 [Zakim]
- -??P17
- 17:03:06 [Zakim]
- - +1.609.462.aagg
- 17:03:08 [Zakim]
- -YolandaG
- 17:03:11 [Zakim]
- - +1.530.554.aajj
- 17:03:13 [Zakim]
- - +49.302.093.aadd
- 17:03:15 [Zakim]
- - +1.781.646.aacc
- 17:03:17 [Zakim]
- -??P2
- 17:03:18 [Zakim]
- -michaelp
- 17:03:21 [Zakim]
- - +1.915.747.aahh
- 17:03:23 [Zakim]
- - +1.518.276.aaaa
- 17:03:25 [Zakim]
- INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has ended
- 17:03:27 [Zakim]
- Attendees were +1.518.276.aaaa, +1.860.995.aabb, +1.781.646.aacc, +49.302.093.aadd, +0238059aaff, +1.609.462.aagg, Ivan, +1.915.747.aahh, YolandaG, ssahoo2, pgroth, [IPcaller],
- 17:03:29 [Zakim]
- ... +1.530.554.aajj, jmccuske, michaelp
- 17:03:52 [jmccuske]
- jmccuske has left #prov-xg
- 17:04:34 [lkagal]
- Yolanda, should I create the minutes and put them on the wiki ?
- 17:07:07 [olaf]
- olaf has left #prov-xg
- 17:09:11 [lkagal]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 17:09:11 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/12/04-prov-xg-minutes.html lkagal
- 17:11:14 [lkagal]
- zakim, bye
- 17:11:14 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #prov-xg
- 17:11:24 [lkagal]
- rrsagent, bye
- 17:11:24 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items