17:19:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
17:19:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-forms-irc
17:19:30 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make log public
17:23:20 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #forms
17:24:06 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
17:24:21 <John_Boyer> Meeting: Forms WG Face to Face Meeting Nov. 5, 2009
17:24:31 <John_Boyer> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/FtF_2009_11_Palo_Alto_Agenda
17:24:35 <John_Boyer> Chair: John
17:24:46 <John_Boyer> Regrets: Charlie, Steven (morning)
17:25:31 <John_Boyer> scribe: Leigh
17:25:36 <John_Boyer> scribenick: klotz
17:26:19 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
17:27:57 <CGI487> CGI487 has joined #forms
17:29:01 <unl> unl has joined #forms
17:30:12 <unl> zakim, CGI487 is klotz
17:30:14 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
17:30:32 <unl> zakim, i'm sorry
17:32:41 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
17:38:53 <Steven> trackbot, start telecon
17:38:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:38:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
17:38:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML_Forms
17:38:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_Forms(TPAC)11:30AM scheduled to start 68 minutes ago
17:38:59 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
17:38:59 <trackbot> Date: 05 November 2009
17:39:08 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
17:39:08 <Zakim> HTML_Forms(TPAC)11:30AM has not yet started, Steven
17:39:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see klotz, unl, ebruchez, nvdbleek, RRSAgent, John_Boyer, Steven, markbirbeck, trackbot
17:39:29 <John_Boyer> Charlie is not able to join today, so we hung up on zakim
17:40:34 <John_Boyer> it raises the point that there are things we ask of zakim that we should be able to ask of trackbot instead
17:40:39 <John_Boyer> like who is here
17:43:25 <unl1> unl1 has joined #forms
17:44:36 <klotz> scribenick: klotz
17:44:38 <klotz> scribe: klotz
17:44:59 <klotz> topic: rechartering
17:46:47 <klotz> John: Phillipe reported that we had a good turnout for XForms 1.1 AC vote
17:48:56 <klotz> John: In 2007, TBL and Steve Bratt asked me to look at broadening adoption of XForms on the web.
17:49:24 <klotz> John: Our conclusion was that we needed an indirect means to get it implemented in browsers, and so we started Ubiquity.
17:55:47 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
17:55:59 <klotz> Erik: ..
17:56:59 <klotz> John: The Dojo-style approach seems to work for the W3C management.
17:56:59 <klotz> John: We need to ask for rechartering by the end of this month, with a vote in January.
17:58:01 <klotz> Uli: I understand your concerns, Erik.  But I'd like to have a showcase at the W3C site.
17:58:27 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
17:59:24 <klotz> Leigh: Someone would have to make a usable release of Ubiquity; the focus so far has been on test coverage demonstration.  
17:59:27 <klotz> John: It's work.
17:59:54 <klotz> Erik: I have no objection to showing a javascript version for the W3C website.  But if the view is that it's competition with HTML5, it won't be positive.
18:00:15 <klotz> John: I don't think that W3C has decided that XML doesn't belong on the web.  We live in the complicated app space.
18:02:06 <John_Boyer> Perhaps I should say "sophisticated" app space
18:03:05 <klotz> Nick: view source is useful
18:03:06 <klotz> John: The technical press people wanted to see view source for html5.
18:04:54 <klotz> Erik: On the back end, we're integrated with XQuery, XPath, XML Schema, XML, the whole W3C XML stack
18:05:21 <klotz> John: XForms is an end-to-end XML application technology, not necessarily something for the HTML group.  Our new charter needs to show that.
18:05:41 <klotz> John: So should we be doing XForms for HTML? Maybe not?
18:06:09 <klotz> Erik: I hope not. Last time that was put in the charter, but nobody seemed to want to finish the work.
18:06:27 <klotz> John: In this case, unlike 2007, we are being asked to propose our charter.
18:09:17 <klotz> Leigh: So maybe we can find a home for the extension work outside and do the core work?
18:09:24 <klotz> John: There's a lot of core work.
18:09:41 <klotz> Erik: ...
18:09:47 <klotz> John: The work on top of 1.1 is simpler.
18:10:03 <klotz> Nick: Some features are, but others aren't.  XPath 2.0 and dialog are weeks or months.
18:10:29 <klotz> John: Of individuals doing smaller specs.  And we attempt to publish those as separate specs, with separate smaller test suites.
18:11:19 <klotz> John: We don't have to test XPath in every location, just show it works and use the nodeset 1.0 terminology.  One calculate, one ui binding, maybe a dozen or two tests.
18:11:42 <klotz> Erik: XForms 1.1 is a more solid platform and XForms 1.0 was mostly implemented.
18:11:59 <klotz> Erik: So how do we keep members and not drop members?
18:13:14 <klotz> Erik: How do we lower the barrier to entry, as Raman said?
18:15:17 <klotz> Erik: Maybe more observers
18:15:17 <klotz> Leigh: Observers haven't agreed to the patent policy.
18:15:45 <klotz> John: Maybe we need an XForms extensions group somewhere.
18:16:06 <klotz> John: W3C and IETF have coordinated.
18:16:45 <klotz> Nick: We don't want to lose resources.
18:18:14 <klotz> Erik: Rechartering the group is a great thing to do but we need concrete steps on members.
18:20:00 <klotz> John: We could do more sharing phone calls with extension groups.
18:20:00 <klotz> John: The www-forms list has many members who could contribute.
18:20:00 <klotz> Erik: The membership policy is my issue.
18:21:45 <klotz> John: Vocal technical leaders on some web projects aren't part of large organizations.  It's hard to get people like that in large companies.
18:24:09 <klotz> Erik: So, the question isn't resolved.
18:24:09 <klotz> John: Issue #1 is that W3C recharterng seems like it would be encouraged.e
18:24:28 <klotz> John: #2 our charter should be about XML applications on the web.
18:24:54 <klotz> John: Phillipe did a multi-namespaced app and they wanted to see the svg namespace in use.
18:25:27 <klotz> John: For an extensions group, we'd need to address the patent policy.
18:29:22 <klotz> Leigh: Setting up a pied-a-terre would be useful.
18:30:47 <klotz> John: I've been asked to do our charter request by the end of November.
18:32:17 <klotz> Leigh: This would be for things like extension libraries for non W3C type things, financial libraries.
18:33:22 <klotz> Leigh: I.,e. for folks who don't share the W3C web view, but are interested in ODF, e-commerce, business process, etc.
18:35:56 <klotz> John: So we should apply for rechartering in W3C?
18:36:07 <klotz> Uli: Yes.  Great.
18:36:36 <Steven> I have a draft charter, but with no real technical content
18:38:11 <klotz> Steven, we'd like to up the focus on the things we really do well: XML end-to-end.
18:58:58 <klotz> Uli: TPAC discussion yesterday on namespace dependencies.
18:59:17 <klotz> Uli: Extensibility
18:59:34 <klotz> John: The W3C used URLs for namespaces to decentralize it for XML.
19:00:19 <klotz> Nick: They discussed prohibiting any extensions to HTML unless you write a spec.
19:00:32 <klotz> Nick: Microsoft said it worked and Mozilla asked for a registry.
19:00:47 <klotz> Uli: They said use a Wiki for a registry.  Nobody wants a central registry for namespaces.
19:01:17 <klotz> Uli: I don't think it's a requirement that namespaces be beautiful.
19:01:34 <klotz> John: Noah Mendelssohn said that the default case was problematic because of cut and paste.
19:01:40 <klotz> Erik: Yes.
19:02:04 <klotz> Erik: It's more for XSLT transformers; you need to do the namespace fixup.
19:02:21 <klotz> Erik: As a user you hit the default namespace problem mostly.
19:02:44 <klotz> Nick: Everybody uses namespaces in JavaScript already.  They're the same programmers.
19:03:16 <klotz> Uli: I don't buy the argument that the indirection is a problem.  It's a political issue because it comes from XML.
19:06:45 <klotz> Uli: THey didn't want to talk about the syntax.
19:06:45 <klotz> John: I didn't get the idea that namespaces support would be available for HTML files in from Microsoft.
19:06:45 <klotz> Uli: They're in the HTML namespace in the DOM.
19:06:45 <klotz> s/Uli/Nick/
19:06:49 <klotz> Nick: They changed Firefox so that they're in the HTML namespace.
19:06:51 <klotz> Erik: So you can do it in an XML serialization.
19:06:56 <klotz> Nick: You use svg:
19:06:59 <klotz> Uli: Not in the HTML seriailization.  There's hardcoded mappings once you hit the svg element.
19:07:03 <klotz> Erik: You can produce XHTML5.
19:07:05 <klotz> John: The browser will not choose the right parser to use if you set the wrong content type.
19:07:36 <klotz> Erik: So why not set the content type?
19:07:36 <klotz> Uli: The biggest browsers don't support it.
19:07:36 <klotz> Erik: Nor do they support svg.
19:07:36 <klotz> Nick: But all elements in the DOM are in the XHTML namespace.
19:07:51 <klotz> Erik: If you're using XHTML5, IE6 doesn't matter.
19:08:21 <klotz> Erik: Isn't that their position: use the XML serialization.
19:08:50 <klotz> Uli: They assume nobody will use it.  IE8 doesn't support application/xml+xhtml.  You only get it if the document is served up with that type.
19:09:00 <klotz> Erik: IE8 doesn't support SVG or canvas either.
19:09:48 <klotz> Erik: We author in XHTML and then let Michael Kay serialize it to HTML for us.
19:10:07 <klotz> topic: Custom functions
19:10:26 <klotz> John: Erik, do you have feedback from Michael Kay on functions?
19:10:57 <klotz> Erik: I proposed value-of and sequence instead of result, but Michael suggested we not use value-of because it produces a text-node not a string.
19:11:17 <klotz> Erik: He suggested keeping only sequence.  He said they had a result element but switched to sequence.
19:11:55 <klotz> Erik: So result is clearer, but XSLT doesn't have one.  So we can use the closer syntax or something more proper for xforms.
19:12:06 <klotz> Nick: Will we support sequence constructors?
19:12:25 <klotz> Erik: It would be result/@select.  If you have variables you can construct anything you want.
19:12:40 <klotz> Erik: So I would be inclined to remove value-of, but I don't know about result vs sequence.
19:12:50 <klotz> John: result would have the single result semantic.
19:12:57 <klotz> Nick: Multiple result elements?
19:13:16 <klotz> Uli: No.
19:13:20 <klotz> s/Uli/Erik/
19:14:06 <klotz> Uli: I would prefer result overs sequence if we support XPath 1.0 but I'm not sure of that.  I think we should first look at XPath 2.0 and backport.
19:14:26 <klotz> John: It's already clear how to make it work.  
19:14:39 <klotz> John: If you could have multiple sequence elements, can you have var/var/seq/var/var/seq?
19:14:44 <klotz> Erik: Yes.  
19:14:53 <klotz> Erik: It constructs the sequence.
19:15:05 <klotz> Nick: And in XSLT you can add XML markup.
19:15:14 <klotz> John: For XPath 1.0 how do we construct the answer?
19:15:36 <klotz> John: If the sequences are different types it would be an error.
19:15:46 <klotz> Leigh: Or coerce them all to string.
19:15:59 <klotz> John: Yes, downgrade the behavior.
19:16:18 <klotz> Erik: It's a corner case for xpath 1.0.
19:16:29 <klotz> Erik: That's one piece of feedback.
19:17:24 <klotz> Erik: The other issue was initial context being empty.  He said it as for simplicity: XSLT has no live instances, all global functions, one initial document.  So no need.
19:18:36 <klotz> Erik: For XSLT 2.1 they are planning first-class and higher-order functions.
19:19:02 <klotz> John: What is the context?L
19:19:07 <klotz> s/L$//
19:19:15 <klotz> Leigh: Are they closures?
19:19:40 <klotz> John: If we decide to set the context where the function is declared does that later break?
19:19:51 <klotz> Leigh: No, it would be consistent with closures.
19:20:13 <klotz> Erik: They might want to change initial context in the future.  They will have anonymous functions, nested.
19:20:52 <klotz> Erik: But they didn't say what.
19:21:12 <klotz> John: Will you have trouble with initial context in an OTS XPath engine?
19:21:27 <klotz> Erik: I think not. But I did mention it to Michael Kay.
19:22:02 <klotz> Leigh: As you pointed out your function library can hold the function,context tuple itself.
19:22:13 <klotz> Erik: He's working on local variable scoping.
19:22:30 <klotz> Erik: I think you can implement it yourself with your own functions, even.
19:22:43 <klotz> John: So it seems forward compatible with the way the wind is blowing.
19:22:57 <klotz> Erik: I told him I would like it,.
19:23:05 <klotz> Leigh: Maybe we should tell them we would like it.
19:23:21 <klotz> Nick: An interpreter may have less performance
19:23:28 <klotz> Erik: Yes, it can be optimized more.
19:23:57 <klotz> Erik: They also said they hadn't dicsussed named local functions yet.
19:27:43 <klotz> Leigh: Just read http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/
19:28:26 <klotz> Leigh: We should lobby them for closures.
19:28:39 <klotz> Erik: We won't get that until 2.1.  But it's doable and they're working.
19:29:06 <klotz> Uli: There's a bigger movement to HOF.
19:30:33 <klotz> Erik: They will have higher-order functions and inline nested functions.
19:31:11 <klotz> Leigh: I think we should write it up as a formal comments.
19:31:46 <klotz> John: Leigh?
19:31:55 <klotz> Leigh: As long as Erik sends me a note saying what we've already agreed to.
19:38:24 <klotz> John: So sequence, not result, for custom functions.
20:04:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #forms
21:17:45 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #forms
21:17:47 <unl> unl has joined #forms
21:17:58 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
21:18:01 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
21:18:10 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has left #forms
21:18:25 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
21:23:26 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #forms
21:24:00 <John_Boyer> scribe: Nick
21:24:07 <John_Boyer> scribenick: nvdbleek
21:24:22 <nvdbleek> TOPIC: External model
21:26:25 <nvdbleek> John: To recall we will have a simple src attribute on model, and an import element to sidestep the sub-model problem
21:26:47 <nvdbleek> John: What is the difference between an include and import element?
21:26:54 <John_Boyer> s/src attribute on model/src attribute
21:27:18 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: An import element would have more semantic then an include element
21:27:39 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: We only support the import element as a direct child of model
21:28:35 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: this solves Stevens simple use cases
21:29:13 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: and you can use import to import the contents of multiple model elements
21:29:51 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: The import doesn't solves the duplicate id problem
21:30:53 <nvdbleek> klotz: Yes it will include the contents and add the functions of the function attribute and the same for the schema attribute
21:31:56 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: You don't have to create a single infoset that contains the resolved imports
21:32:11 <nvdbleek> klotz: this is something that should be noted in the spec
21:32:49 <John_Boyer> and if the imported model contained an inline schema, an xforms-ready handler, a submission or an instance, or any multiples of those, the processor behaves as if those had been written into the importing model
21:34:25 <John_Boyer> Leigh: It wouldn't be possible to schema validate the XForms document
21:34:31 <nvdbleek> klotz: we need to remove the idref'nes from bind
21:34:41 <John_Boyer> This affects bind attribute on inputs, submission on send, etc.
21:36:19 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
21:36:31 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: Do we resolve that this will work for now?
21:37:06 <nvdbleek> (consensus in the group, we can live with this proposal)
21:38:10 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: This is a first step of moving away from id's
21:38:45 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: the imports should be resolved at model-construct
21:40:54 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: if we have imports for the UI then they should be resolved when the UI is created, then you can have dynamic imports
21:41:20 <nvdbleek> klotz: we could have AVT's on them
21:41:40 <John_Boyer> Uli: (above) why not have import for UI too?
21:46:38 <nvdbleek> klotz: We should have an import with a relevance to conditional show UI content
21:47:20 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: Didn't Mark sugest this to Joern doing this with a load that replaces inline content 
21:47:21 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
21:48:33 <nvdbleek> klotz: it was show="embed"
21:48:50 <John_Boyer> could be show="#someID"
21:50:20 <nvdbleek> klotz: target-id was already on load
21:51:26 <klotz> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2009Jun/0022.html is the proposal from Joern Turner.
21:53:39 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: we should do import in UI later, bcz. it looks like in the UI you want it to be more dynamic
21:55:33 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: or do it with submission, and there is already a feature of synchronizing load and submission
21:57:06 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: It wouldn't hurt to have also a simple import mechanism with import
21:57:32 <wiecha> wiecha has joined #forms
21:58:02 <unl> unl: load and instance/@src should be defined in terms of submision
21:58:03 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: we need to think about it more what about groups and repeats
21:58:26 <unl> s/submision/submission some day/
21:59:07 <nvdbleek> klotz: static UI content inclusion should be a host language feature
21:59:36 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
21:59:44 <John_Boyer> zakim, this will be forms
21:59:44 <Zakim> ok, John_Boyer, I see HTML_Forms(TPAC)11:30AM already started
21:59:45 <Zakim> +Leigh_Klotz
21:59:48 <wiecha> zakim, who is here?
21:59:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P2, Leigh_Klotz
21:59:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see wiecha, klotz, nvdbleek, ebruchez, John_Boyer, unl, RRSAgent, trackbot
22:00:12 <wiecha> zakim, ??P2 is wiecha
22:00:12 <Zakim> +wiecha; got it
22:01:14 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: we will do import in model only, and also support src on model
22:01:51 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: if an imported model contains an import that will be resolved (it is an error if a cycle is detected)
22:03:54 <nvdbleek> klotz: For the UI we need to concentrate on dynamic import for UI
22:05:35 <nvdbleek> wiecha: if we have dynamic UI we will need dynamic model inclusion for the binds of the UI
22:07:31 <nvdbleek> unl: when the UI needs a new model that sounds like components
22:08:43 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: we have proposal on our wiki for models everywhere even inside a repeat
22:09:29 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: the models would be scoped
22:09:48 <nvdbleek> unl: that are simplified components
22:10:20 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: yes it is, a lightway approach for simple components
22:10:22 <ebruchez> http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/projects/xforms-model-scoping-rules
22:12:28 <nvdbleek> klotz: is it consistant with your xbl work?
22:12:33 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: yes it is
22:13:21 <nvdbleek> wiecha: do you allows binds between those models
22:13:27 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: TBD
22:14:10 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: what is a use case for submodels that get replaced/injected into a model
22:14:58 <nvdbleek> wiecha: for incrementaly building a form
22:16:11 <nvdbleek> wiecha: the new 'parts' will add to the model and will bind to the 'parent' model
22:19:51 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: We don't need dynamic model import if we don't have dynamic UI import, lets postpone it till then
22:20:50 <John_Boyer> import with src for model-only content resolved once during model-construct with error on cyclic import
22:20:52 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
22:22:08 <John_Boyer> also resource attribute as alternative to src
22:29:10 <nvdbleek> John_Boyer: We need to do something about foreign namespaced attributes
22:31:58 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: we can't do this because we don't know how to combine duplicate 
22:33:27 <nvdbleek> klotz: we don't need to specify it, it is the extension mechanism of the implementation that needs to give access to all the foreign namespace attributes and children
22:35:39 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer: I'm only trying resolve a seeming inconsistency between having foreign namespaced elements in an imported model being put into the importing model but not having foreign namespaced attributes on the imported model being copied over in some way
22:35:57 <John_Boyer> Leigh: We should be very specific about what content is copied over. 
22:39:09 <John_Boyer> Leigh: Limit it to copying exactly inline schema, bind, action, instance, submission, then specify by a NOTE that future extension modules should specify how they participate in model imports
22:39:25 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer: That works for me
22:40:55 <unl> unl has joined #forms
22:46:40 <nvdbleek> RESOLUTION: import with src/resource for model-only content resolved once during model-construct with error on cyclic import as a direct child of model
22:46:44 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
22:47:19 <nvdbleek> ACTION: Charlie to write the module for 'import with src/resource for model-only content resolved once during model-construct with error on cyclic import as a direct child of model'
22:47:19 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Charlie
22:57:19 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
23:03:22 <Zakim> -Leigh_Klotz
23:03:24 <Zakim> -wiecha
23:03:24 <Zakim> HTML_Forms(TPAC)11:30AM has ended
23:03:25 <Zakim> Attendees were Leigh_Klotz, wiecha
23:12:25 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
23:21:46 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #forms
23:24:46 <John_Boyer> steven arrives to meeting
23:28:28 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
23:28:58 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
23:28:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-forms-minutes.html Steven
23:33:01 <Steven> s/t?L/t?/
23:33:08 <Steven> s/THe/The/
23:33:42 <Steven> Present: Nick, Erik, Uli, John, Leigh, Steven
23:46:18 <Steven> s/Topic: rechartering/Topic: Rechartering
23:46:26 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
23:46:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-forms-minutes.html Steven
23:50:04 <unl> unl has joined #forms
23:51:34 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Node_%27create%27_functions?highlight=%28CategoryXForms12%29
23:52:16 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
23:52:20 <nvdbleek> TOPIC: Node Creation XPath Functions
23:52:26 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Node_%27create%27_functions?highlight=%28CategoryXForms12%29
23:53:01 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: we need to create elements based on a name entered by the user
23:54:54 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: if we have XQuery support we don't need it, but this can be used in XPath 1.0 
23:55:27 <nvdbleek> ebruchez: there is the inverse function serialize to serialize XML