IRC log of tpac on 2009-11-04
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-irc
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- Meeting: W3C Technical Plenary
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- rrsagent, please make record public
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- zakim, call salon_1
- 16:34:20 [Zakim]
- ok, Ralph; the call is being made
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- W3C_TP(*)11:30AM has now started
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- +Salon_1
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- zakim, salon_1 is MeetingRoom
- 16:34:31 [Zakim]
- +MeetingRoom; got it
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- -MeetingRoom
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- W3C_TP(*)11:30AM has ended
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- Attendees were MeetingRoom
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- morning all from the room!
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- mauro has changed the topic to: Technical Plenary Day agenda http://www.w3.org/Member/Meeting/2009ac/November/
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- 16:45:46 [cardona507]
- good morning everyone
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- W3C_TP(*)11:30AM has now started
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- +Salon_1
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- +Ralph
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- Topic: Welcome to TPAC 09 (from Tim)
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- -Ralph
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- + +46.7.06.02.aaaa
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- zakim, code?
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- the conference code is hidden, wiecha
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- Chair: Ralph
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- scribe: Ian
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- scribe: IanJ
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- [ Tim welcomes everybody ]
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- 16:49:05 [IanJ]
- Topic: Decentralized Extensibility in HTML5
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- Henry: Welcome to a debate, intended to be educational. Structured to bring out the details, complexity, and richness of the problem space we label "decentralized extensibility"
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- Noah's slides: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Nov/0003.html
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- Noah: My job today is to bring everyone here up to speed on why this is important, why it's hard, and some background on some particular details.
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- 16:51:42 [DanC]
- -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Nov/0003.html noah's presentation materials
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- Noah: HTML is the most important doc format on the Web, and quite possibly the most important doc format in the world.
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- Noah: We are debating who gets to say what is in HTML.
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- Noah: This also says a lot about who we are as a community.
- 16:52:04 [marie]
- [Noah's slides are also linked from http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/PlenaryAgenda.html]
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- [Noah points out that he's not representing IBM or the TAG, just here to help!]
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- 16:52:49 [IanJ]
- Noah's definition of decentralized extensibility:
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- "The ability for a language to be extended by multiple parties who do not explicitly coordinate with each other."
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- Slide 5: What sorts of extensions/
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- Noah: elements, attributes, data values.
- 16:53:58 [IanJ]
- Noah: There are potentially lots of extensions people do for lots of reasons.
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- Noah: First, why some people are passionate about the importance of decentralized extensibility.
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- Noah: (1) modularity is good (2) separation of concerns is good
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- (3) Web is an unusual system; Web is too big for any central group to invent or coordinate all the extensions we need.
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- Noah: My view is that good architecture can be reduced to a few use cases.
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- Noah: SVG is a separate specification, that happens to be an XML vocabulary.
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- 16:55:31 [IanJ]
- ..it's easy to reuse the pieces.
- 16:55:49 [IanJ]
- ...you and I may work in an industry where we choose to use SVG in a document format of our creation.
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- 16:56:12 [IanJ]
- ..by using the same SVG as others, we have some changes that cut/paste works across container languages,
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- that the same svg parers/renderer can be used, and that the same toolset may be used.
- 16:56:32 [IanJ]
- ...and it will also be easier to duplicate user training, documentaiton, etc.
- 16:56:49 [IanJ]
- ...and we may also benefit from testing separation.
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- 16:57:13 [IanJ]
- ...finally, the separation of concerns allows the marketplace to decide on a solution.
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- 16:57:26 [IanJ]
- Noah: Now the perspective on challenge to decentralized extensibility.
- 16:57:38 [IanJ]
- Noah: First, nobody has found a painless way to do this (more on why in a moment)
- 16:57:53 [IanJ]
- Controversy: not everyone believes HTML extensions will be needed very often anyway.
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- 16:58:24 [IanJ]
- Noah; For instance, SVG only happens once in a while. Maybe it's easier not to build a generalized mechanism but to introduce features as we need them to the core language.
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- Noah: Some mechanisms for avoiding name collisions are ugly and/or complicated.
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- s/Noah;/Noah:/
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- Noah: With DE (decentralized extensibility), it can be hard to move experimental extensions into the core.
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- (example: <xxx:table> -> <table>)
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- Noah: The main controversies in this discussion are about avoiding name collisions.
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- Noah: Now, on to some questions:
- 16:59:35 [tantek]
- <xxx:table> -> <table> is not what has happened in practice
- 16:59:40 [tantek]
- what has happened in practice is:
- 16:59:42 [IanJ]
- * Does HTML 5 provide decentralized extensibility?
- 16:59:44 [tantek]
- <a> -> <svg:a>
- 16:59:49 [tantek]
- the *opposite*
- 17:00:08 [tantek]
- namespaces = siloization, encouraging *divergence*, not convergence
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- 17:00:38 [IanJ]
- Noah: What the text/html serialization of HTMl 5 does not provide are mechanisms like XML namespaces that help to avoid naming conflicts or help explict existing vocabularies.
- 17:00:48 [raman]
- tantek, was waiting for you to say svg:a :-)
- 17:01:13 [tantek]
- raman - the presenter used SVG as an example, therefore it was fair game in cross-examination.
- 17:01:38 [IanJ]
- Noah: There are a number of extension points (Noah lists a few: @class, @rel, <meta>, <script>, ...)
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- 17:01:59 [IanJ]
- Noah: So the question is "how will you coordinate on extensions"?
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- Noah: My understanding is that:
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- 17:02:05 [hsivonen]
- (surely SVG should be coordinated with HTML right here at the W3C instead of being something that happens without coordination between the parties)
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- 17:02:14 [IanJ]
- 1) There won't be too many cases where you need major new features
- 17:02:22 [Julian]
- tantek, I've seen other vocabularies where the opposite happened (existing elements in other namespaces reused properly)
- 17:02:26 [IanJ]
- 2) Where there are major new features, update the spec
- 17:02:28 [tantek]
- I hereby place my contributions to irc.w3.org chat rooms into the public domain, and explicitly grant permission for inclusion in any public logs.
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- annevk: #tpac09
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- s/annevk:/annevk,
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- 17:03:21 [IanJ]
- Noah: There's a point of view that if your spec is really extensible, you can leave a lot out of it.
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- 17:03:36 [IanJ]
- Noah: HTML 5 has been criticized for including "too much" presumably since it is not extensible enough.
- 17:03:57 [IanJ]
- Noah: There has been this debate (week by week) -- in or out?; my list of features here is a moving target.
- 17:03:59 [raman]
- Tantek, I do the same for my comments, and further assert that Bubbles promises to do the same --- all other dogs permitting:-)
- 17:04:11 [IanJ]
- Noah: So the big question here has to do with name collisions.
- 17:04:21 [tantek]
- Liam - you can use CC0.
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- Noah: I will focus here on namespaces, the mechanism traditionally used in this context.
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- http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/
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- IanJ has changed the topic to: Technical Plenary Day agenda http://www.w3.org/Member/Meeting/2009ac/November/; back channel irc is #tpac09
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- tantek has changed the topic to: Technical Plenary Day channel. see also backchannel: #tpac09
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- [Noah starts to dive down into xml namespaces]
- 17:06:00 [tantek]
- "this markup is ugly"
- 17:06:03 [IanJ]
- Noah: I think the biggest con is that "people hate this stuff"; hard to type, URIs are long.
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- 17:06:16 [tantek]
- also, copy/paste fragility
- 17:06:16 [IanJ]
- Noah: URIs should be in tag names, but that is even worse to type.
- 17:06:33 [IanJ]
- Noah: Everybody does this....(e.g., java packages)...you end up with clumsy names, and then complexity to make them tractable.
- 17:06:43 [IanJ]
- Noah: Since we don't like prefixes, then we use defaults, which cause their own problems.
- 17:06:43 [tantek]
- ah there it is
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- 17:07:18 [tantek]
- "Namespaces tend to break DOM-level updates (e.g. innerHTML)."
- 17:07:27 [benadida]
- actually, it's just that the people who hate this stuff are highly vocal. Plenty of people don't care.
- 17:07:50 [tantek]
- benadida - the opposite, the people that *do* care about namespaces tend to be the more vocal.
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- isn't src attribute in the null namespace?
- 17:08:21 [IanJ]
- Noah: For me the deepest flaw in the namespace approach is that as element names become more "standard" you are stuck with the prefixes used in deployed content.
- 17:08:43 [IanJ]
- Noah: There are some proposals floating around to help manage the namespace question (Liam Quin, and one from Microsoft). Proposals linked from slides.
- 17:08:46 [IanJ]
- Noah: Summary:
- 17:08:58 [kkLO00]
- hey guys, keep up the good work
- 17:08:59 [IanJ]
- * Disagreement about how often extensions will be needed, and whether collisions would cause problems.
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- 17:09:12 [IanJ]
- * Disagreement about whether central coordination through the HTML WG suffice.s
- 17:09:27 [IanJ]
- * Disagreement about whehter it's practical to provide decentralized mechanism to avoid name collisions.
- 17:09:39 [tantek]
- "Namespaces are ... usable in XHTML" <- strongly disagreed.
- 17:09:41 [IanJ]
- * There is disagreement as to how much to compromise to maintain compatibility with XML.
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- 17:10:20 [IanJ]
- * There is disabilityas to which capabilities shoudl be slpit out from HTML and which existing Rec to make usable in HTML 5 (e.g., microdata, rdfa mappings, svg, canvas)
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- 17:10:30 [IanJ]
- * There is disagreement in particular about inclusion of RDFa
- 17:10:49 [IanJ]
- [Noah discusses why it matters]
- 17:10:55 [benadida]
- tantek - seeing how much you have to say in this chat room appears to contradict your claim that anti-namespace people aren't vocal :)
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- 17:11:25 [IanJ]
- Whether: HTML 5 will adapt well as new capabilities are needed, who will be able to create and deploy enhancements, whether HTML 5 will be convenient, compatible with existing content, will work with XML tools
- 17:11:40 [tantek]
- benadida - email logs of public-html proves the point that namespace advocates are more vocal, more often, and spend more time write lengthier messages on the topic.
- 17:12:00 [Roger]
- I think Noah just did a heck of a good job.
- 17:12:01 [IanJ]
- Henry: Thank you, Noah.
- 17:12:26 [DanC]
- well, most of the data isn't visible. most people who care one way or the other about namespaces don't participate in public-html or W3C at all
- 17:12:38 [John_Boyer]
- This talk did a good job on syntactic extensibility, but we also need to be considering extensibility from the interaction domain, e.g. uniform support for XBL-like functionality.
- 17:13:13 [IanJ]
- [Debaters]
- 17:13:31 [IanJ]
- Jonas Sicking (Mozilla Foundation)
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- Tony Ross (Microsoft)
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- 17:14:10 [jmorris]
- http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/1104-tpac-ht/#%281%29
- 17:14:10 [IanJ]
- slides: http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/1104-tpac-ht/
- 17:14:21 [IanJ]
- First question on definitions:
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- 17:14:32 [IanJ]
- Tony: I think that people are trying to solve different problems.
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- s/Tony/Jonas/
- 17:14:59 [IanJ]
- thx
- 17:15:07 [IanJ]
- Jonas: Seems good to allow private extensions.
- 17:15:20 [IanJ]
- Jonas: The Web at large may not need everything.
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- 17:15:35 [IanJ]
- Jonas: The distributed part is the harder part - people who don't talk to one another to coordinate extensions.
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- Jonas: I agree that name collisions is a hard question.
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- 17:16:26 [IanJ]
- Jonas: So I think it's ok to have other W3C groups be able to add extensions.
- 17:16:47 [IanJ]
- ...e.g., we see browser vendors doing experimental css property values to test them out.
- 17:17:10 [IanJ]
- ...there's a small amount of coordination to avoid stepping on feed, but it's distributed to the extent that more than one group can create extensions.
- 17:17:17 [matt]
- s/feed/feet/
- 17:17:19 [IanJ]
- ...and I think that kind of extension is a good thing.
- 17:17:35 [IanJ]
- Tony: Largely I agree with a lot of what Jonas said.
- 17:17:45 [IanJ]
- Tony: What is important when talking about DE is who can extend, and how.
- 17:18:14 [IanJ]
- Tony: You can have people writing their own standards, frameworks with their own extensions, browsers that extend, non-browser tools that extend, etc.
- 17:18:34 [IanJ]
- Tony: There are extensibility mechanisms in HTML, but it only goes so far (e.g., microformats)
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- 17:18:39 [tantek]
- "to some extent distributed extensibility is possible in HTML today, we have seen this with microformats"
- 17:18:57 [IanJ]
- Tony: We are imposing some limitations...you can't create your own tags
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- 17:19:02 [benadida]
- microformats are *distributed* extensibility?
- 17:19:17 [howard]
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- 17:19:22 [tantek]
- benadida - was just quoting Tony
- 17:19:43 [IanJ]
- Tony: As we get more than just browser vendors involved, we can be talking about tens of thousands of people wanting to add their own targetted extensions.
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- 17:19:57 [tantek]
- I'm not sure I would call microformats "distributed extensibility" themselves, but rather an example of distributed extensibility in that they occurred *outside* W3C.
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- 17:20:06 [IanJ]
- Tony: If someone wants to use a feature defined by somebody else, if the mechanism is simply prefix-based, there's a desire to keep the name short.
- 17:20:26 [Nightwolf]
- hi
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- 17:20:34 [rigo]
- tantek, everything occured first outside W3C
- 17:20:46 [tantek]
- Tony: "if someone wants to use calendar from one and date picker from another ..."
- 17:20:54 [IanJ]
- Tony: Another issue is consistency.
- 17:20:57 [mib_no73a3]
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- 17:21:05 [IanJ]
- ...we have support for this in xhtml...and in the (HTML5) DOM
- 17:21:13 [dsinger]
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- 17:21:15 [IanJ]
- ...we have support for namespaces implicity in the html 5 syntax.
- 17:21:26 [IanJ]
- ...names acquire namespaces implicitly (e.g., svg and mathml namespaces)
- 17:21:50 [IanJ]
- Tony: So namespaces are available through the Dom; just not there yet in the markup.
- 17:21:51 [DanC]
- DanC has changed the topic to: W3C Technical Plenary http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/PlenaryAgenda ; see also backchannel: #tpac09
- 17:22:01 [IanJ]
- Tony: I think namespaces provide a desirable solution.
- 17:22:40 [IanJ]
- Jonas: When people want to add a feature to HTML 5, we first ask "what is the use case"?
- 17:22:49 [IanJ]
- Jonas: So why do we want this type of decentralized extensibility.
- 17:23:03 [tantek]
- There is insufficient representation of pragmatists and web publishers on this panel.
- 17:23:31 [IanJ]
- Tony: Lots of XML applications use namespaces, providing xml-namespace based support in html 5 would allow easier reuse in HTML 5 context.
- 17:23:50 [IanJ]
- [Henry asking each speaker to ask the other for any clarifications]
- 17:24:02 [IanJ]
- Tony: What in particular do you find about xml namespaces hard or undesirable?
- 17:24:09 [IanJ]
- Jonas: Two problems, partially stemming from the same thing.
- 17:24:31 [IanJ]
- Jonas: When I hear people talk about various elements, everyone refers to <svg:a>...nobody writes out the full svg namespace.
- 17:25:06 [Travis]
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- 17:25:36 [IanJ]
- Jonas: People think of the "full name" as being the "short name" (prefix + local name)
- 17:25:37 [cheol]
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- 17:25:48 [IanJ]
- Jonas: People in practice identify with the short name
- 17:26:07 [IanJ]
- Jonas: The real name is a tuple; you have to pass around two values (namespace URI + local name, and sometimes even the prefix, too)
- 17:26:13 [IanJ]
- ...so this adds complexity to code.
- 17:26:24 [IanJ]
- core questions
- 17:26:28 [IanJ]
- http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/1104-tpac-ht/#%284%29
- 17:26:41 [IanJ]
- Henry: I heard considerable agreement on "what DE is."
- 17:26:52 [IanJ]
- Henry: People begin to differ in the core questions.[
- 17:27:26 [IanJ]
- Henry: how do we enable DE in HTML 5? How to avoid name collision? Subsidiary issues (XML v HTMl serializations, apis, validators, non-browser UAs)
- 17:27:41 [IanJ]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 17:27:41 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
- 17:27:47 [IanJ]
- rrsagent, set logs public
- 17:28:14 [IanJ]
- Tony: Regarding a proposal to manage name collisions. There was a proposal on the list (@@URI?@@).
- 17:28:37 [Roger]
- I recall that one of the big factors in the success of HTML was that it was a highly simplified subset of SGML.
- 17:28:44 [Nikunj]
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- 17:28:48 [Roger]
- People like me could use it.
- 17:28:50 [zarella_]
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- 17:29:11 [IanJ]
- Tony: I think DE is somewhat enabled already in HTML 5, but I think that for the sake of consistency, we should explore how much closer we can bring HTML XML serialization with existing XML ns mechanism.
- 17:29:39 [Roger]
- I personally would like to be able to do a "view source", cut and paste some of the HTML into my own document, and have a chance in hell of making it work.
- 17:29:44 [IanJ]
- Tony: You can use namespace APis available in the DOM.
- 17:29:52 [tantek]
- Tony, if you believe in XML Namespaces, then resurrect XHTML2, grab whatever elements you want from HTML5 (perhaps the whole set), introduce a new mimetype for non-draconian XML handling, and offer it as an alternative to HTML5.
- 17:30:12 [timely]
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- 17:30:13 [annevk]
- XML5 FTW!
- 17:30:32 [IanJ]
- Tony: Obviously validators have a lot of freedom in what they validate, but there is an impact on users.
- 17:30:52 [rubys]
- annek: are you going to bring that up that when Henry opens up the floor for questions?
- 17:30:58 [Hixie]
- that's what data-* is for
- 17:31:07 [masinter]
- This is mainly a political issue hiding behind a technical one. If Microsoft started to use <SL> for SilverLight and Linden Labs started to use <SL> for Second Life, who would have the authority to allow or disallow either of them, or decide between them?
- 17:31:07 [hsivonen]
- (fwiw, today XHTML5 validators don't allow random namespaces, so Namespaces and validation are separate questions)
- 17:31:08 [IanJ]
- Tony: You don't want to push some functionality to script and away from declarative markup.
- 17:31:20 [IanJ]
- Tony: We should provide guidelines for DE.
- 17:31:28 [tantek]
- annevk ++
- 17:31:31 [IanJ]
- Tony: Avoiding name conflicts with core language in the future
- 17:31:37 [Claes]
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- 17:31:39 [raman]
- namespace view -- Let's colonize the Web" --- 2 seen as 5 (mirror image view) dash-it -- we dont want to be colonized --- Hence --- use dashes instead of colons everywhere:-)
- 17:31:39 [DKA]
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- 17:31:45 [IanJ]
- Tony: Using a URI helps also with conflicts with other extensions.
- 17:31:46 [Hixie]
- data-*="" already handles the dojo use case -- it's what it was meant for: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#embedding-custom-non-visible-data
- 17:31:49 [hsivonen]
- masinter, moreover, is it good for the Web to delegate a substantial part of markup processing to Silverlight or Second Life?
- 17:31:50 [IanJ]
- Tony: Prefixes help shorten.
- 17:32:02 [plaggypig]
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- 17:32:05 [tantek]
- hsivonen - W3C has never defined how to validate multi-namespace documents.
- 17:32:11 [IanJ]
- Tony: It is an indirection, but people are used to that (e.g., putting a value in a variable)
- 17:32:17 [benadida]
- Tony is right on "you don't want to push some functionality to script and away from declarative markup." I want a web where declarative data can be one of the powerful tools at our disposal.
- 17:32:25 [hsivonen]
- masinter, what if I have a device that doesn't have a port of Silverlight or Second Life. How do I read the content?
- 17:32:31 [IanJ]
- Jonas: We already have several interesting extension mechanisms.
- 17:32:45 [Zee]
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- 17:32:47 [raman]
- larry --- java packages --- gues who wrote code in package com.ms --- hint: domain ms.com is owned by Morgan Stanley --
- 17:32:55 [IanJ]
- Jonas: We need to ask the question "what do we need DE for?" The HTML 5 spec is good enough for some use cases. E.g., the ability to use microdata, or rel values.
- 17:33:19 [masinter]
- hsivonen, your use of "delegate": who exactly is doing the delgation? And what is the threshold for "substantial"?
- 17:33:20 [tantek]
- Jonas: "We already have microdata, we already have the ability to add new rel values, we have a rel-profile proposal"
- 17:33:23 [IanJ]
- Jonas: You can use profiles to ground names (in HTML 4)
- 17:33:47 [IanJ]
- Jonas: If you want to add other elements, write a specification. I think that's a good way for people to extend the language where we want people to experiment or add functionality to the Web platform.
- 17:33:49 [vincent]
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- 17:34:03 [benadida]
- seems to me Jonas is ignoring a bunch of clear evidence for DE: Google, Yahoo, and others creating their own vocabularies and then later, serendipitously, coming together on a subset.
- 17:34:04 [IanJ]
- Jonas: Adding a feature to the Web platform should not be taken lightly; we suffer from poorly defined features.
- 17:34:38 [benadida]
- isn't html5 trying to kill @profile, btw?
- 17:34:39 [hsivonen]
- masinter, delegated away from a standard-implementing engine. substantial if I can't make sense of content without an extension processor.
- 17:35:06 [mhausenblas]
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- 17:35:07 [IanJ]
- Jonas: Tremendous cost to a poorly desgined feature -- we want people to collaborate, review, and integrate into the core web platform.
- 17:35:18 [arun]
- benadida, don't you think those very use cases will gravitate to microdata as well? Is there anything *intrinsic* about the use of a namespaced solution?
- 17:35:28 [IanJ]
- Jonas: It's not a problem for scenarios where you just want local extensions; small group of people; in that case, you don't need to worry about name collisions.
- 17:35:36 [Julian]
- benadida, it did, so far
- 17:35:42 [myakura]
- isn't manu working on the proposal for adding @profile?
- 17:35:47 [IanJ]
- Jonas: If we want the whole web to use it, we should work on integration.
- 17:36:16 [IanJ]
- Jonas: what would be nice is to do what css does - if you want to do a local extension, here's how you do so (using "-token-" prefix)
- 17:36:30 [rubys]
- manu's draft: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Nov/0103.html
- 17:36:47 [raman]
- Arun, it always scares me when email threads go down the road of "I dont like X", let's make it difficult to do X; let's make X impossible, for if it were possible, people might use it :-) that's my short summary of the namespaces debate on the public mailing list
- 17:36:50 [rahul]
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- 17:36:58 [IanJ]
- [Questions of clarification between debaters]
- 17:37:14 [IanJ]
- Tony: Do you think consistency between the 2 serializations is important?
- 17:37:18 [masinter]
- Let's get rid of seatbelts in cars because we don't want to have any accidents.
- 17:37:22 [raman]
- Arun, it always scares me when email threads go down the road of "I dont like X", let's make it difficult to do X; let's make X impossible, for if it were possible, people might use it :-) that's my short summary of the namespaces debate on the public mailing list
- 17:37:27 [benadida]
- arun - microdata might be useful, though it stinks of NIH. HTML5 could have used RDFa syntax without namespaces (which wouldn't fulfill all of the use cases, but at least wouldn't be silly reinvention.)
- 17:37:34 [IanJ]
- Jonas: There is value to consistency. At the same time, looking at the documents people write today, many more are written in HTML than in XMl.
- 17:37:43 [tommorris]
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- 17:38:00 [IanJ]
- Jonas: HTML has been much more popular. I don't want to make the 2 the same. First of all, choice is good. But second, the XML world made some mistakes, and I think xml namespaces is one of them.
- 17:38:12 [IanJ]
- Jonas: Consistency is nice, but things aren't always that simple.
- 17:38:18 [spynifex]
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- 17:38:30 [IanJ]
- Jonas to Tony: How concerned are you about breaking compatibility with existing documents.
- 17:39:02 [IanJ]
- Jonas: Because browsers today in the html serialization, ns attributes are ignored, .....there's a lot of content that therefore relies on them being ignored.
- 17:39:04 [mib_fvlkfa]
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- 17:39:10 [spynifex]
- Hi there
- 17:39:13 [IanJ]
- ...do we have data that show that it will be ok to turn on ns support?
- 17:39:31 [IanJ]
- Tony: We do have some data, and there would be some problems, so we need to manage the compatibility.
- 17:40:07 [IanJ]
- Tony: I don't think that with prefixed element names, compatibility concerns pose as big a risk.
- 17:40:46 [IanJ]
- Jonas: One concern is that javascript libraries may want to add names and their might be collisions there.
- 17:40:48 [DKA]
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- 17:41:01 [IanJ]
- ...but libraries add properties to the global object...there's a situation where you might have name collisions.
- 17:41:11 [hsivonen]
- would MS ship their proposal across all the modes of IE9?
- 17:41:19 [maxf]
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- 17:41:19 [IanJ]
- ..but we haven't seen it in practice; with the exception of the dollar name, but there it was somewhat intentional.
- 17:41:36 [IanJ]
- ...since js libraries have shown that they can deal with sharing a ns without name collisions, I don't think we should worry about it.
- 17:41:53 [IanJ]
- Tony: Js gives the end user more flexibility in resolving this than markup does.
- 17:42:14 [IanJ]
- ...they typically put functionality in a global object. And they work fine if you rename that object something else (aliasing).
- 17:42:27 [IanJ]
- ...eg, I can run multiple versions of jquery at the same time by using aliasins.
- 17:42:29 [benadida]
- "js libraries have shown that they can deal with sharing a ns without name collisions" is simply not what I've seen from extensive JavaScript injection into web pages.
- 17:42:36 [IanJ]
- ...I don't think we have that flexibility automatically with just markup.
- 17:43:14 [IanJ]
- Tony: I was wondering, Jonas, whether you think there should be different requirements for different types of authors.
- 17:43:39 [Rotan]
- Yes, page authors are in a different class. Adding DISelect to HTML 5, for example, is a problem without some name management solution.
- 17:43:48 [mcgredo]
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- 17:43:51 [IanJ]
- Jonas: Yes. browsers have a larger responsibility for not injecting crap into the namespace of what they support. We have seen that when browser vendors inject features, they get picked up, and browser vendors end up having to support it.
- 17:44:03 [IanJ]
- Jonas: So the bar should be very high for browser vendors to add extensions.
- 17:44:23 [IanJ]
- Jonas: For js libraries, I think the bar should be slightly lower, though they might have similar concerns as browser vendors about uptake.
- 17:44:37 [IanJ]
- Jonas: I'm relucting to impose any constraints on page authors, who do what they want anyway.
- 17:44:48 [IanJ]
- Jonas: I think we should expect people will use their own elements and attributes.
- 17:45:05 [IanJ]
- Jonas: I am happy we've added a mechanism for adding attributes: the @data attribute.
- 17:45:12 [IanJ]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 17:45:12 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
- 17:45:25 [IanJ]
- Henry: Thank you, debaters.
- 17:45:41 [IanJ]
- Henry: Now to the floor.
- 17:46:04 [IanJ]
- Henry: I will try to keep threads going (over strict mic order)
- 17:46:20 [IanJ]
- Julian Reschke: Two comments.
- 17:46:25 [sylvaing]
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- 17:46:53 [IanJ]
- Julian: the fact that you have to pass tuples to the API is an APi issue, not a ns issue.
- 17:46:55 [masao_]
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- 17:47:03 [richt]
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- 17:47:08 [IanJ]
- Julian: The HTML WG could add APIs to pass namespaced element names.
- 17:47:27 [IanJ]
- Julian: Second point - bad extensions are deployed whether we have DE or not. E.g., we have canvas.
- 17:47:53 [mib_fvlkfa]
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- 17:48:06 [IanJ]
- Jonas: Regarding ns tuple: yes, it might be possible via APIs; but haven't seen a proposal on this; might not be so straightforward.
- 17:48:47 [IanJ]
- Jonas: Also relucting to add a third set of APIs for this access...the second round of APIs has not been that popular. Most people use "createElement"
- 17:49:06 [IanJ]
- ...people are very ns-agnostic.
- 17:49:26 [IanJ]
- ..we made a firefox change recently (moving things to html ns from null ns ) and very few bug reports resulted.
- 17:49:35 [masao]
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- 17:49:41 [IanJ]
- Tony: There was some discussion about the means of combining ns+ local name into a single string.
- 17:50:00 [IanJ]
- ...I don't feel a new API would be necessary, but I don't think it would add complexity if we did.
- 17:50:12 [IanJ]
- ...ideally an API would be a single string access into the tuple anyhow.
- 17:50:36 [Laura]
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- 17:50:47 [IanJ]
- Liam Quin (XML Activity Lead): Over the past year I've been talking to a lot of people in the XML community.
- 17:50:47 [glazou]
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- 17:51:03 [IanJ]
- Liam: We can't break XML; it's very widely used. And people rely on it a lot.
- 17:51:08 [IanJ]
- Liam: But we can add things.
- 17:51:28 [glazou]
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- 17:51:40 [IanJ]
- Liam: I asked what we might add to XML in a way that would work with HTMl.
- 17:51:43 [rubys]
- http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/08-quin-balisage-namespaces/
- 17:52:04 [IanJ]
- Liam: The "unobtrusive namespace proposal" allows mashups.
- 17:52:22 [IanJ]
- Liam: You have an optional file that a browser could go off and fetch, which defines what ns the elements are in.
- 17:52:29 [glazou]
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- 17:52:33 [Rotan]
- Would there be a way for a page to override Liam's proposed external doc of namespace settings?
- 17:52:43 [IanJ]
- Liam: A browser would not ordinarily have to go get anything; a browser behaves as though it had already loaded the file.
- 17:52:52 [IanJ]
- Liam: This proposal solves some of the problems identified here.
- 17:53:14 [IanJ]
- Liam: Regarding name collisions, it lets you say what "foo" you mean; but does not let you use two different "foo" elements from two ns in the same document.
- 17:53:29 [claudio]
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- 17:53:29 [IanJ]
- Liam: For that case, I would just use xml namespaces.
- 17:53:37 [IanJ]
- Liam: There is also an ISO proposal to address this.
- 17:53:37 [shadi]
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- 17:53:39 [yfukami]
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- 17:53:51 [Nikunj]
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- 17:54:09 [IanJ]
- Henry: I'd like the debaters to address the implicit question: if the overhead of using xml namespaces were reduced, would that make a difference?
- 17:54:18 [timbl]
- Rotan, presumably.... maybe they should cascade .. like CSS .. oh maybe we should use css .. svg a { background: #ffe; namespace "http://www.w3.org/..svg" }
- 17:54:53 [Rotan]
- Tim, exactly what I had in mind.
- 17:55:07 [gedgar]
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- 17:55:08 [IanJ]
- Jonas: I don't know off the top of my head. You'll still have a tuple as the identifying name. You'll still have a disconnect where people talk about names using one label, but it remains this tuple.
- 17:55:27 [IanJ]
- Jonas: Sounds interesting; I'd like to analyze the problems we are seeing and which problems it addresses or not.
- 17:55:36 [Rotan]
- Namespace-sheets, in addition to style-sheets :)
- 17:55:42 [IanJ]
- Jonas: The proposal does seem to address the problem of copying from one doc to another.
- 17:55:43 [dom]
- -> http://www.balisage.net/Proceedings/vol3/html/Quin01/BalisageVol3-Quin01.html Automatic XML Namespaces
- 17:56:12 [IanJ]
- Jonas: Sound "better" but don't know yet if "quite there."
- 17:56:30 [PIon]
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- 17:56:32 [IanJ]
- Henry: Anyone else want to speak to making xml namespaces "more palatable"
- 17:56:41 [IanJ]
- Jonas: Have you submitted the proposal to the HTML WG?
- 17:56:48 [IanJ]
- Liam: I've submitted it to the HTML Coordination Group.
- 17:56:56 [Liam]
- [yes via the hypertext coordination group]
- 17:57:05 [DanC]
- liam, the hypertext CG isn't a technical forum. very different from the HTML WG
- 17:57:11 [hsivonen]
- why via a secret group?
- 17:57:12 [IanJ]
- Rotan Hanrahan: Friendly amendment --- you could use a sort of CSS cascade to simplify the namespace problem (going from explicit ns to default ns)
- 17:57:33 [IanJ]
- Larry Masinter: The topic is DE in general, though we've focused more narrowly on element/attribute extensibility.
- 17:57:43 [buckybit]
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- 17:57:45 [Roger]
- Roger says he agrees with Julian.
- 17:57:47 [skfet]
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- 17:57:55 [IanJ]
- Larry: I would like to express support for extensibility more generally; this has allowed creativity on the Web.
- 17:58:14 [Roger]
- me says he agrees with Julian (sorry)
- 17:58:49 [IanJ]
- Larry: There's a political issue hiding behind a technical issue. The technical one is "how do you spell X" but the political one is "who has the authority?" For example, brand issues.
- 17:58:59 [IanJ]
- Larry: This problem addressed through mechanisms like registries.
- 17:59:23 [IanJ]
- Larry: we need to come to the conclusion of what W3C wants the political solution to be; the technical solution will follow.
- 17:59:50 [IanJ]
- Jonas: I agree that DE elsewhere [than elements and attributes; scribe thinks] is interesting. E.g., the microdata proposal.
- 17:59:59 [raman]
- we should create the PAG (Political Architecture Group) --- name intentionally chosen since PAG has always raised the spectre of a "patent advisory group"
- 18:00:18 [raphael]
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- 18:00:41 [IanJ]
- Jonas: On the question of "who gets to decide"; we're biased---browser vendors or UA vendors decide. What they implement is ultimately what people can use.
- 18:00:51 [John_Boyer]
- One reason that XML namespaces are based on URIs is because it allowed the W3C to punt the registry issue elsewhere. If W3C ran a registry, then perhaps namespaces could be simplifed
- 18:01:06 [IanJ]
- Jonas: though it is also true that browser vendors will follow what a lot of authors do.
- 18:01:32 [IanJ]
- Tony: In terms of the political issue, it's broader than just user agents. Who gets to extend? Impact of browser extensions has a big impact.
- 18:01:34 [Zakim]
- +??P0
- 18:01:49 [shadi]
- zakim, ? is me
- 18:01:49 [Zakim]
- +shadi; got it
- 18:01:51 [skfet]
- what's this chan about ?
- 18:02:14 [nickdoty]
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- 18:02:17 [IanJ]
- Ralph Swick: I heard more agreement among debaters than I expected. I heard agremeent on extensibility, and also distributed extensibility.
- 18:02:22 [bruce]
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- 18:02:28 [IanJ]
- Ralph: However, clients of HTML are not just browsers. there are other clients.
- 18:02:52 [IanJ]
- Ralph: Tony raised an interesting point about validation. One thing that has held us back has been a lack of a framework that supports ad-hoc extensions.
- 18:03:06 [IanJ]
- Ralph: We addressed that in XML using XMl schema languages to do mixed-markup validation.
- 18:03:31 [IanJ]
- Ralph: How do we register extensions?
- 18:03:48 [arun]
- That's easy -- it goes in the global namespace ;-)
- 18:04:07 [IanJ]
- ..things that push info into attributes moves the ability to validate outside our generic validator to extension-specific validation.
- 18:04:37 [IanJ]
- Ralph: on the question of registration...if we use dns, that's a form of registry, if we use a wiki, that's another.
- 18:04:40 [kaz]
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- 18:05:12 [IanJ]
- Ralph: There's a subtle difference - whether I'm forced to publicize that I'm using an extension (even one in a private Intranet), would I be forced to use a central registry v hiding it behind the DNS?
- 18:05:37 [IanJ]
- Tony: Ideally, in a scenario like you described, you should not have to go do a central registry.
- 18:05:56 [IanJ]
- ..you do need the ability to resolve conflicts if they exist...but going to a central registry for private extensions is asking to much.
- 18:06:20 [IanJ]
- Jonas: There are private extension mechanisms in CSS, HTTP. Having something like that could be useful here.
- 18:06:45 [IanJ]
- ...help avoid collisions, but don't need to tell anyone you are doing it. You should not have to go to a registry to use such an extension.
- 18:06:46 [Rotan]
- "Experimental" names have an awkward habit of becoming permanent.
- 18:07:21 [Yves]
- registries imply persistence issues
- 18:07:23 [IanJ]
- Steven Pemberton: I was on a panel in 2003...this panel is an extension of that one. I gave a talk where I suggested that we needed unobtrusive namespaces; glad to see that idea reborn.
- 18:07:51 [IanJ]
- Steven: I work in a community that uses DE in HTMl all the time. We know what the advantages are. But the community is bimodal.
- 18:08:03 [icaro]
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- 18:08:07 [IanJ]
- Steven: Seems in this case, the solution should serve both communities, without exclusing one.
- 18:08:30 [IanJ]
- Tantek Celik: Tony, you brought a proposal to the HTML WG.
- 18:08:32 [Steven]
- http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/tp-steven-web/
- 18:08:59 [Steven]
- s/exclusing/excluding/
- 18:09:08 [IanJ]
- tantek: My suggestion to you is that if you believe in XML, resurrect HTML 2, introduce what you want, and register a new mime type, and offer it as an alternative to HTML 5.
- 18:09:14 [IanJ]
- Tony: You are definitely entitled to your opinion.
- 18:09:19 [annevk]
- s/HTML 2/XHTML 2/
- 18:09:52 [Judy]
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- 18:09:53 [IanJ]
- Henry: We are down to matters of opinion. There are two main costs to porting XML into the HTML universe.
- 18:10:18 [IanJ]
- Henry: Cost at the API level of managing tuples; cost at the syntax level managing issues there .
- 18:10:26 [IanJ]
- Henry: So "is the benefit worth the cost?"
- 18:10:35 [IanJ]
- Henry: And there are several proposals to reduce the cost.
- 18:10:49 [Zakim]
- - +46.7.06.02.aaaa
- 18:10:50 [IanJ]
- Henry: This has been useful in moving the discussion forward. Thank you.
- 18:10:52 [IanJ]
- <break>
- 18:10:57 [IanJ]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 18:10:57 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
- 18:11:04 [MikeSmith]
- s/mime type/mime type for non-draconian XML handling/
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- 18:16:39 [unl]
- MikeSmith: draconian error handling is *not* prescribed by the xml spec. it's an interpretation issue. the YSOD is a mozilla problem. see webkit getting it right with non-wellformed xhtml files
- 18:18:28 [ccklaus]
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- 18:28:34 [Steven]
- Scribe: Steven Pemberton
- 18:28:41 [Steven]
- Scribenick: Steven
- 18:29:05 [Steven]
- Topic: Maintaining a Healthy Internet Ecosystem -- Challenges to an Open Internet Infrastructure
- 18:30:23 [Steven]
- Moderator: Leslie Daigle, Internet Society Presenters: John Curran (ARIN) David Conrad (ICANN) Lisa Dusseault (IETF)
- 18:30:44 [Steven]
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- 18:36:49 [Steven]
- LD: Focus - to talk about managing internet for common good
- 18:36:58 [darobin]
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- 18:37:57 [Steven]
- LD: Success is due to open standards, freely accessible processes, transparent governance
- 18:37:59 [adrianba]
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- 18:38:20 [Steven]
- ... internet must remain open for the next big thing
- 18:38:30 [Steven]
- ... ecosystem
- 18:38:46 [AndyS]
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- 18:38:48 [wbailer]
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- 18:39:09 [Steven]
- ... standards, resource management, infrastructure, users, organisations that build capacity
- 18:39:18 [Kai]
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- 18:40:00 [Steven]
- ... who does what really?
- 18:40:18 [Steven]
- ... spider diagram (just one perspective)
- 18:41:00 [raman]
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- 18:41:50 [tantek]
- For the record, my question / proposal at end of "Distributed Extensibility" session was intended seriously (not sarcastically), to enable/allow/encourage exploration of multiple options by strongly interested parties.
- 18:41:53 [jjc]
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- 18:41:56 [Steven]
- ... education and capactity building sub diagram
- 18:42:15 [Steven]
- ... users sub diagram
- 18:42:26 [Steven]
- ... policy development sub-diagram
- 18:42:50 [tantek]
- "important role to play in meatspace"
- 18:43:02 [marie]
- [slides at http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/20091104-InternetEcosystem-Intro.pdf]
- 18:43:24 [Steven]
- ... Naming and addressing sub-diagram
- 18:43:45 [Steven]
- ... open standards sub-diagram
- 18:43:56 [tantek]
- marie - are source slides available? e.g. in HTML (these look like unordered lists) and/or SVG?
- 18:44:25 [Steven]
- ... shared global services
- 18:44:28 [Eduardo]
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- 18:44:29 [marie]
- tantek - just pdf
- 18:44:37 [marie]
- linked from the agenda page
- 18:44:48 [Tobias]
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- 18:45:12 [masinter]
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- 18:45:34 [Steven]
- ... ... Today's panel, 3 pieces of the diagram represented - IETF, ICANN, IRIN
- 18:45:43 [Steven]
- s/IRIN/ARIN/
- 18:46:20 [plh]
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- 18:46:21 [Steven]
- Panellist Lisa Dusseault, IETF Applications area director [LD2]
- 18:46:39 [shepazu]
- the slides were very professional
- 18:46:39 [Steven]
- LD2: W3C and IETF do work well together
- 18:47:10 [marie]
- http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/IETF-tpac09.pdf
- 18:47:25 [Steven]
- ... Mark Nottingham is our coordinator at W3C
- 18:47:55 [Steven]
- ... DanC and PLH are good contacts
- 18:48:21 [Steven]
- [slide: hwo to talk to us]
- 18:48:25 [glazou]
- IanJ:
- 18:48:25 [glazou]
- 18:48:26 [Steven]
- s/hwo/how/
- 18:48:40 [glazou]
- IanJ, I'll need you miniDVI again for my lightning talk
- 18:48:40 [nick]
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- 18:48:59 [Steven]
- [slide: we have a lot in common]
- 18:49:14 [plh]
- --> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ietf-w3c/ W3C/IETF liaison mailing list archive
- 18:49:28 [Steven]
- [Slide: The rest of the world]
- 18:49:45 [hbj]
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- 18:49:52 [Steven]
- [Slide: Plan for]
- 18:51:18 [Steven]
- [Slide: Challenges]
- 18:51:18 [brucel]
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- 18:51:44 [Maua]
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- 18:53:30 [drogersuk]
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- 18:54:00 [Steven]
- David Conrad, ICANN
- 18:54:18 [JonathanJ]
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- 18:54:24 [Steven]
- DC: Also at IANA
- 18:54:27 [marie]
- http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/IANA-tpac09.pdf
- 18:54:51 [ArtB]
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- 18:54:53 [Steven]
- [Slide: Openness]
- 18:55:34 [Steven]
- [Slide: Multiple personalities]
- 18:56:08 [Hideki]
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- 18:56:43 [timely]
- <http://www.icann.org/en/transparency/>
- 18:56:47 [Steven]
- [Slide: Multiple personalities 2]
- 18:57:54 [DanC]
- MOU = Memorandum of Understanding
- 18:57:58 [Steven]
- [Slide: IANA Functions]
- 18:58:29 [mauro]
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorandum_of_understanding
- 18:58:49 [Steven]
- DC: about 1000 registries, some which have 4 or 5 requests per day
- 18:58:49 [Ileana]
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- 18:59:10 [Steven]
- [Slide: Openness in IANA Functions]
- 19:00:56 [nord_c]
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- 19:00:57 [Steven]
- [Slide: Transparency]
- 19:01:23 [tantek]
- could scribes expand acronyms? many are having trouble following
- 19:01:49 [Steven]
- [Slide: Accountability]
- 19:01:55 [Eliot_Graff]
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- 19:02:02 [mth]
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- 19:02:11 [timely]
- SLA=Service Level Agreement
- 19:02:46 [Claes1]
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- 19:03:02 [Steven]
- [Slide: Summary]
- 19:03:29 [Steven]
- DC: We are trying to be more open
- 19:03:38 [Steven]
- ... our website is getting better
- 19:04:12 [jallan]
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- 19:04:25 [Steven]
- John Curran: Arin
- 19:04:37 [Steven]
- JC: I will give you years of terror
- 19:04:41 [marie]
- [no slides]
- 19:04:50 [timely]
- ... a regional internet registry
- 19:04:55 [Steven]
- ... ARIN is a regional IRI assignment entity
- 19:05:01 [timely]
- ... involved in BGP routing
- 19:05:10 [Arron]
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- 19:05:13 [timely]
- ... one of the founders
- 19:05:19 [mauro]
- ARIN --> American Registry for Internet Numbers https://www.arin.net/
- 19:05:19 [Steven]
- ... I was a founder, moved to CEO
- 19:05:23 [timely]
- ... we have a transition coming up
- 19:05:30 [timely]
- ... 2^32 ipv4 addresses
- 19:05:37 [timely]
- ... we have been giving them out
- 19:05:49 [timely]
- ... we used to give out class A, class B, class C
- 19:05:58 [Steven]
- scribenick: timely
- 19:05:59 [timely]
- ... we've switched to giving out <slash-notation>
- 19:06:02 [maxf]
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- 19:06:14 [timely]
- ... we've been going through 10-12 slices a year
- 19:06:22 [timely]
- ... we're down to 28 slices left
- 19:06:29 [timely]
- ... we have 717 days left
- 19:06:35 [timely]
- ... and we will run out of ipv4 addresses
- 19:06:43 [timely]
- ... when we run out of addresses
- 19:06:54 [timely]
- ... people won't be able to connect new servers
- 19:06:58 [timely]
- ... we're not really running out
- 19:07:05 [timely]
- ... we're running out of unassigned addresses
- 19:07:21 [timely]
- ... every 6-12 months regional groups come asking for addresses
- 19:07:27 [timely]
- [or was that isps]
- 19:07:51 [timely]
- ... there are ranges which are available because they can be torn down (dial up ranges)
- 19:08:17 [timely]
- some addresses can be exchanged by offering customers savings for returning addresses
- 19:08:28 [timely]
- ... every ISP will have to start reclaiming addresses
- 19:08:39 [timely]
- ... there are a lot of addresses assigned to companies that don't exist anymore
- 19:08:53 [timely]
- ... some original granted groups have turned in early range grants
- 19:09:07 [timely]
- ... there are 6-12 of those perhaps left
- 19:09:16 [timely]
- ... but this won't help for much time
- 19:09:21 [timely]
- ... at some point, we will run out
- 19:09:30 [timely]
- ... option 1. we put a sign out, "the internet is full, go away"
- 19:09:37 [timely]
- ... this is actually real simple
- 19:09:41 [timely]
- ... it's perfect
- 19:09:50 [timely]
- ... there are some equity and fairness issues
- 19:09:57 [timely]
- ... some countries are only now coming to the table
- 19:10:04 [timely]
- ... and it's unfair to them
- 19:10:12 [timely]
- ... option 2. ipng
- 19:10:18 [timely]
- ... what you now call ipv6
- 19:10:24 [timely]
- ... it has 2^128 addresses
- 19:10:29 [timely]
- ... which is a lot of addresses
- 19:10:36 [timely]
- ... i won't try to enumerate them
- 19:10:49 [timely]
- ... but we can still spend them at the same rate
- 19:11:00 [timely]
- ... but this isn't enough
- 19:11:04 [timely]
- ... because it's not about packets
- 19:11:17 [timely]
- ... there's a need to get packets connected
- 19:11:22 [claudio]
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- 19:11:25 [timely]
- ... and most servers only have ipv4 addresses
- 19:11:32 [Nikunj]
- Nikunj has joined #tpac
- 19:11:35 [timely]
- ... we have 2 years to get ever web server an ipv6 addresss
- 19:11:37 [timely]
- s/sss/ss
- 19:11:40 [timely]
- [shouted!]
- 19:11:47 [mac]
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- 19:11:49 [DanC]
- *we have 2 years to get ever web server an ipv6 address* , he says
- 19:11:54 [timely]
- ... i'm now telling you that it is your job that we get every server an ipv6 address
- 19:11:59 [timely]
- ... in addition to an ipv4 address
- 19:12:05 [timely]
- ... if everyone were to do that
- 19:12:15 [timely]
- ... we could connect new users with just an ipv6 address
- 19:12:29 [timely]
- ... we've looked at the number of servers with ipv6 addresses
- 19:12:31 [timely]
- ... it's a small number
- 19:12:38 [mac]
- mac has joined #tpac
- 19:12:40 [timely]
- [scribe pauses to change nick]
- 19:12:53 [timeless]
- ScribeNick: timeless
- 19:12:54 [fo]
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- 19:13:01 [DanC]
- doesn't youtube account for a majority of IP traffic already? google has IPv6 deployed, no?
- 19:13:03 [timeless]
- questioner: why can't you assign everyone an ipv6 address
- 19:13:06 [DanC]
- 2% sounds low
- 19:13:15 [dom]
- google has IPv6
- 19:13:17 [timeless]
- speaker: the problem is that you have to give people routing information
- 19:13:29 [timeless]
- ... you have to get the ipv6 address configured on your server
- 19:13:55 [timeless]
- the problem is getting the address, getting the configuration, configuring your server
- 19:14:16 [timeless]
- questioner: couldn't software automatically assign the ipv6 addresses to servers
- 19:14:24 [timeless]
- speaker: when you get addresses from your server
- 19:14:37 [timeless]
- ... you get them from a block which the ISP manages
- 19:14:57 [timeless]
- ... this is managed by address blocks
- 19:15:04 [timeless]
- ... which arranges routing blocks
- 19:15:13 [AnnB]
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- 19:15:25 [timeless]
- ... ideally you get v6 addresses according to network topography
- 19:15:27 [caribou]
- s/questioner/Elika Etemad
- 19:15:47 [timeless]
- other-person: the issue is getting the full scale deployment of a new internet
- 19:15:54 [DanC]
- I think the question was: do the server owners have to start this change, or can it be done for them?
- 19:16:09 [caribou]
- s/other-person/Leslie Daigle
- 19:16:14 [Claes]
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- 19:16:23 [timeless]
- speaker: this wireless network gives you a v4 address
- 19:16:34 [timeless]
- ... a lot of you have mac books, i can see the logo
- 19:16:44 [timeless]
- ... the router might give out a v6 address
- 19:16:57 [timeless]
- Leslie: is this a general question of the room, or do we move on
- 19:17:01 [timeless]
- [room]: move on
- 19:17:02 [caribou]
- s/speaker/John Curran
- 19:17:17 [timeless]
- new-questioner: when i talk to people about ipv6
- 19:17:22 [Rotan]
- http://www.subnetonline.com/pages/subnet-calculators/ipv4-to-ipv6-converter.php
- 19:17:25 [timeless]
- ... i find that there wasn't a lot that people could read about
- 19:17:27 [brutzman]
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- 19:17:32 [mauro]
- s/new-questioner/TimBL/
- 19:17:34 [timeless]
- ... i found mit and google have v6 addresses
- 19:17:50 [timeless]
- ... for a while your computer could cheat and tunnel to a special place
- 19:17:55 [timeless]
- ... using a complicated map
- 19:18:07 [timeless]
- ... and we could deem ipv4 addresses to be part of ipv6 addresses
- 19:18:08 [marisol]
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- 19:18:11 [dchiba]
- dchiba has joined #tpac
- 19:18:20 [timeless]
- John: what matters is public servers
- 19:18:29 [timeless]
- ... the ones that can be seen by the outside world
- 19:18:35 [timeless]
- ... at MIT all addresses are public facig
- 19:18:39 [timeless]
- s/cig/cing/
- 19:18:52 [timeless]
- ... you can't get ipv6 until your network team gives you ipv6 connectivity
- 19:18:58 [timeless]
- ... or if you setup a tunnel
- 19:19:21 [timeless]
- TBL: if i work with my network team
- 19:19:36 [timeless]
- ... then when i click on a link, there's no guarantee i can get to a v4 ?
- 19:19:47 [timeless]
- John: when you click on a link with v6, you get to v6
- 19:19:58 [timeless]
- ... but some groups are working on Carrier Grade NAT
- 19:20:06 [timeless]
- ... for reaching ipv4 addresses
- 19:20:17 [timeless]
- ... but we don't know if Carrier Grade NAT will scale
- 19:20:23 [timeless]
- new-speaker-3:
- 19:20:38 [timeless]
- ... I work for a small company
- 19:20:42 [caribou]
- s/new-speaker-3/Jeremy Carroll
- 19:20:44 [timeless]
- ... I'm trying to understand what you want us to do
- 19:20:54 [AxelPolleres]
- AxelPolleres has joined #TPAC
- 19:21:01 [timeless]
- ... it sounds like we need to make sure our isp provides ipv6 addresses and ipv6 connectivity
- 19:21:11 [timeless]
- ... and we should ask our isp these questions
- 19:21:13 [gond]
- gond has joined #tpac
- 19:21:13 [timeless]
- John: steps
- 19:21:21 [timeless]
- ... 1. ask isp to turn on ipv6 connectivity
- 19:21:32 [timeless]
- ... 2. configure your servers with ipv6 addresses
- 19:21:39 [timeless]
- ... 3. make sure your software works with ipv6
- 19:21:46 [timeless]
- ... 4. double check your firewall still works
- 19:21:59 [timeless]
- ... that's what we need to do everywhere over the next few years
- 19:22:00 [Eliot_Graff]
- Eliot_Graff has left #tpac
- 19:22:14 [timeless]
- Leslie: open for questions
- 19:22:18 [timeless]
- new-speaker-4:
- 19:22:23 [timeless]
- [glazou]
- 19:22:32 [timeless]
- ... first statement, don't use acronyms
- 19:22:41 [wiecha]
- wiecha has joined #tpac
- 19:22:44 [timeless]
- ... Daniel Glazman, disruptive innovations, cochair csswg
- 19:22:48 [caribou]
- s/new-speaker-4/Daniel Glazman
- 19:22:49 [timeless]
- new-speaker-5:
- 19:22:50 [Tobias]
- Can I see this streamed somewhere?
- 19:22:57 [timeless]
- ... i'd like to suggest a new approach for this room
- 19:23:06 [timeless]
- ... think about from an opportunity side
- 19:23:15 [shawn]
- Janina
- 19:23:17 [timeless]
- ... what kind of web can we build if we're absolutely profligate with ...
- 19:23:28 [timeless]
- ... it seems we have to be limited with out thinking today
- 19:23:30 [timbl]
- Tobias, no we aren't streaming it. Yes, would be nice.
- 19:23:30 [caribou]
- s/new-speaker-5/Janina
- 19:23:32 [timeless]
- [speaker fades]
- 19:23:48 [timeless]
- ... what kind of services can we setup...
- 19:23:55 [timeless]
- ... monitoring systems for people who are aging
- 19:24:01 [pbaggia]
- pbaggia has left #tpac
- 19:24:03 [Tobias]
- timbl: Ok thanks.
- 19:24:08 [timeless]
- ... so you can setup servers for each tile in a kitchen
- 19:24:16 [timeless]
- ... so you can see if grandma is dragging
- 19:24:23 [timeless]
- Leslie: thank you for looking at the possitive
- 19:24:33 [timeless]
- ... indeed there are industries looking at the benefits
- 19:24:33 [caribou]
- s/Janina/Janina Sajka
- 19:24:38 [timeless]
- Doug S:
- 19:24:41 [timeless]
- ... where are the tutorials
- 19:24:45 [timeless]
- John: www.arin.net
- 19:24:48 [timeless]
- ... click on ipv6 info
- 19:24:55 [timeless]
- Doug S: you should tweet that
- 19:24:58 [IanJ]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 19:24:58 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
- 19:25:00 [DanC]
- https://www.arin.net/knowledge/about_resources/v6/v6.html
- 19:25:09 [timeless]
- Liam Q: w3c
- 19:25:12 [timeless]
- ... thank you for coming
- 19:25:14 [timeless]
- ... thank you to the panel
- 19:25:22 [timeless]
- ... the big question is what should w3 do about this
- 19:25:24 [timbl]
- http://www.getipv6.info/index.php/Main_Page
- 19:25:26 [timeless]
- ... how can we move forward
- 19:25:34 [YolandaG]
- YolandaG has joined #tpac
- 19:25:34 [timbl]
- http://www.getipv6.info/index.php/Main_Page is IPV6 wiki
- 19:25:35 [masao__]
- masao__ has joined #tpac
- 19:25:37 [timeless]
- ... I've checked and my server has ipv6
- 19:25:43 [timeless]
- ... but i don't know how to test or enter it into a browser
- 19:25:47 [timeless]
- Leslie: thanks
- 19:25:53 [timeless]
- ... if you thought xmlns was ugly
- 19:26:00 [timeless]
- ... you can look at ipv6 literals
- 19:26:10 [timeless]
- someone: i think html5 defines ipv6
- 19:26:16 [timeless]
- s/defines ipv6/ipv7/
- 19:26:18 [timeless]
- [laughter]
- 19:26:25 [Julian]
- s/someone/Ian Jacobs/
- 19:26:29 [DanC]
- do we have an audio recording of the "we have 2 years to get every..." soundbite?
- 19:26:29 [timeless]
- Ralph: so....
- 19:26:37 [timeless]
- ... I heard John give us a clear challenge
- 19:26:44 [tlr]
- /me slaps Julian
- 19:26:48 [timeless]
- ... and I hear Lisa give us a clear [??]
- 19:27:00 [timeless]
- speaker3: ...
- 19:27:06 [timeless]
- ... one of the things icann is working on
- 19:27:08 [tlr]
- s/speaker3/DavidConrad/
- 19:27:14 [timeless]
- ... is IDN
- 19:27:17 [maraki]
- maraki has joined #tpac
- 19:27:21 [timeless]
- ... the approach IETF has taken for internationalization
- 19:27:32 [timeless]
- ... is interesting in the sense that it requires parsing of web pages
- 19:27:39 [timeless]
- ... in terms of recognizing IDN domain names
- 19:27:44 [timeless]
- ... and translating that into punycode
- 19:27:50 [timeless]
- ... and that provides technical challenges
- 19:27:56 [timeless]
- ... that's an area that developers should look at
- 19:28:06 [timeless]
- ... if they haven't been working on it already
- 19:28:12 [timeless]
- Leslie: Larry do you want to plug your work
- 19:28:19 [timeless]
- Larry: there's already an RFC on IRIs
- 19:28:26 [timeless]
- ... we're working on trying to update that
- 19:28:35 [timeless]
- ... there's an amazing goal that i'm not sure everyone shares
- 19:28:43 [timeless]
- ... that web addresses should work on ...
- 19:28:51 [timeless]
- ... there are 9 groups
- 19:29:08 [timeless]
- ... and perhaps we should create out of the 9, one committee to rule them all
- 19:29:10 [timeless]
- ... and bind them
- 19:29:22 [timeless]
- ... we're having a meeting in Hiroshima to talk about this
- 19:29:29 [timeless]
- ... i've met with internationalization core group
- 19:29:36 [timeless]
- ... and [lost-group]
- 19:29:43 [timeless]
- ... and there's a dinner plan [lost-details]
- 19:29:53 [timeless]
- Roger: i'm curious...
- 19:30:01 [timeless]
- ... historically, how did y2k become generally recognized
- 19:30:07 [DanC]
- I tweeted the 2 years soundbite: http://twitter.com/dckc/status/5428107498
- 19:30:09 [timeless]
- ... getting governments on board and trying to fix it
- 19:30:18 [timeless]
- John: an indirect answer
- 19:30:24 [timeless]
- ... ipv4 has been compared to y2k a lot
- 19:30:29 [timeless]
- ... y2k had advantages
- 19:30:34 [timeless]
- ... you knew when it was going to happen
- 19:30:39 [timeless]
- ... you didn't know what was going to happen
- 19:30:42 [timeless]
- ... don't laugh
- 19:30:54 [timeless]
- ... when you talk to people
- 19:30:58 [timeless]
- ... they ask when it will happen
- 19:31:11 [timeless]
- ... the answer moves around
- 19:31:16 [timeless]
- ... with y2k
- 19:31:22 [timeless]
- ... you could test your machine yourself
- 19:31:25 [shepazu]
- https://www.arin.net/knowledge/about_resources/v6/v6.html is a terrible address to try to spread the word.... I suggest http://www.arin.net/ipv6.html
- 19:31:36 [timeless]
- ... you could put a machine in a lab, change the date, and watch it roll over
- 19:31:44 [timeless]
- ... the problem with ipv4
- 19:31:56 [timeless]
- ... is that you don't know what's going to happen when someone comes along
- 19:32:03 [timeless]
- ... and is only given an ipv6 address
- 19:32:04 [IanJ]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 19:32:04 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
- 19:32:08 [timeless]
- ... arin is working with a number of governments
- 19:32:12 [timeless]
- ... working with UN
- 19:32:15 [timeless]
- ... [and others]
- 19:32:28 [chaals]
- chaals has joined #tpac
- 19:32:29 [LeeF]
- LeeF has joined #tpac
- 19:32:30 [timeless]
- ... it's not going to get more attention until it is right upon them
- 19:32:36 [timeless]
- ... and that's 18 months away
- 19:32:39 [timeless]
- [applause]
- 19:32:50 [timeless]
- someone--: lightning talks
- 19:32:52 [W3C]
- W3C has joined #tpac
- 19:32:56 [timeless]
- ... you know the rule for lightning talks
- 19:33:00 [timeless]
- Marrie Clair:
- 19:33:05 [dond]
- exit
- 19:33:06 [timeless]
- ... first presenters now on stage
- 19:33:07 [timbl]
- Well, the US switched to digital TV .. but only by offering free D-A converters to those who were left.
- 19:33:10 [timeless]
- ... 3 minutes
- 19:33:14 [caribou]
- s/Marrie Clair/Marie-Claire/
- 19:33:21 [dond]
- bye
- 19:33:21 [timeless]
- ...
- 19:33:23 [caribou]
- s/someone--/Ralph
- 19:33:29 [Tobias]
- timeless: thank you for your effort
- 19:33:40 [mauro]
- countdown clock at http://www.glazman.org/countdown.html
- 19:33:45 [mauro]
- timeless++
- 19:33:53 [timeless]
- Marie-Claire: [... noise]
- 19:33:56 [IanJ]
- Speaker: Rotan Hanrahan
- 19:33:57 [mauro]
- that was awesome scribing!
- 19:34:07 [caribou]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 19:34:07 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html caribou
- 19:34:09 [jun]
- jun has joined #tpac
- 19:34:14 [timeless]
- Marie-Claire: ok... so lightning talks
- 19:34:18 [timeless]
- ... presenters will have a few minutes
- 19:34:22 [timeless]
- ... for their talk
- 19:34:26 [timeless]
- ... and then a 2 min discussion
- 19:34:33 [timeless]
- ... where we invite your questions at that time
- 19:34:34 [IanJ]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/dcci-LTtpac09.pdf Rotan slides
- 19:34:41 [timeless]
- lightning-one:
- 19:34:44 [DanC]
- where's glazou's timer?
- 19:34:45 [timeless]
- ... projector problems
- 19:34:53 [timeless]
- [ url i won't type, sorry ]
- 19:35:03 [timeless]
- Marie-Claire: daniel glazman has this timer ...
- 19:35:08 [benjick]
- benjick has joined #tpac
- 19:35:10 [timeless]
- ... are you ready. start
- 19:35:18 [cheol]
- cheol has joined #tpac
- 19:35:18 [timeless]
- lightning-one: one web
- 19:35:22 [timeless]
- ... yes ... we understand ...
- 19:35:28 [timeless]
- ... but you don't get one representation
- 19:35:32 [timeless]
- ... if you get some mobile thing
- 19:35:37 [timeless]
- ... you get
- 19:35:43 [caribou]
- s/lightning-one/Rotan
- 19:35:49 [timeless]
- ... different views based on different
- 19:35:49 [caribou]
- s/lightning-one/Rotan/g
- 19:36:02 [timeless]
- ... you get different experiences from different delivery contexts
- 19:36:11 [timeless]
- ... we have a device description repository
- 19:36:15 [timeless]
- ... OMA is working on this
- 19:36:26 [timeless]
- ... so server can see if you are in portrait mode/landscape
- 19:36:33 [timeless]
- ... so it can adapt accordingly
- 19:36:39 [timeless]
- ... the client can see if things are ok,
- 19:36:43 [timeless]
- ... is battery ok
- 19:36:48 [timeless]
- ... is codec installed
- 19:36:51 [rkuntsch]
- rkuntsch has joined #tpac
- 19:36:56 [timeless]
- ... DCCI is a specification on how to access that environemnt
- 19:36:59 [timeless]
- s/emnt/ment/
- 19:37:00 [marisol]
- marisol has joined #tpac
- 19:37:07 [timeless]
- ... DCCI is based on DOM tree
- 19:37:16 [timeless]
- ... it's implemented with all the things we expect from DOM
- 19:37:22 [timeless]
- ... it runs in parallel to DOM
- 19:37:34 [timeless]
- ... the spec for DCCI exists, you can look at it
- 19:37:40 [timeless]
- [uri not provided]
- 19:37:51 [timeless]
- Rotan: we found problems
- 19:37:57 [timeless]
- ... square peg-round-hole
- 19:37:58 [ArtB]
- Please note that Nokia here means "Nokia Research Center"
- 19:38:02 [timeless]
- ... something we learned from
- 19:38:04 [timeless]
- ...
- 19:38:11 [timeless]
- ... read the wiki [uri ...]
- 19:38:23 [rlewis3]
- rlewis3 has joined #tpac
- 19:38:23 [timeless]
- http://www.w3.org/2007/uwa/wiki/DCCI_Use_Cases_and_Requirements
- 19:38:27 [timeless]
- [screen dims]
- 19:38:31 [timeless]
- lightning-two:
- 19:38:43 [timeless]
- Bryan:
- 19:38:48 [timeless]
- ... we have some of this done
- 19:38:51 [glaser]
- glaser has joined #tpac
- 19:38:58 [timeless]
- ... UWA has Device Delivery Context (?)
- 19:39:05 [IanJ]
- Rotan: We have 2/3 of a pie!
- 19:39:05 [timeless]
- Rotan: 2/3 done, great
- 19:39:16 [timeless]
- Rotan: it's important for ...
- 19:39:21 [timeless]
- ... get in touch with UWA (?)
- 19:39:26 [timeless]
- lightning-two:
- 19:39:31 [Jeanne_]
- Jeanne_ has joined #tpac
- 19:39:38 [timbl]
- ... read the wiki
- 19:39:42 [timeless]
- otherq:
- 19:39:44 [IanJ]
- Larry Masinter: What's the relation to CSS media queries/
- 19:39:57 [timeless]
- ScribeNick: IanJ
- 19:40:09 [IanJ]
- Rotan: Media queries were put together a long time ago, dcci was created since then
- 19:40:12 [Kangchan]
- s/Device Delivery Context (?)/Delivery Context Ontology/
- 19:40:16 [IanJ]
- ..hope to hide some complexities from end users
- 19:40:22 [IanJ]
- ..might use media query mechanism
- 19:40:32 [IanJ]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/11-04-steven-backplane/ Charlie Wiecha slides delivered by Steven Pemberton
- 19:40:39 [markusm]
- markusm has joined #tpac
- 19:40:59 [wiecha]
- s/delivered/augmented and delivered
- 19:41:11 [IanJ]
- (slides show demos of compound docs)
- 19:41:34 [IanJ]
- Steven;
- 19:41:35 [IanJ]
- The Backplane Premise
- 19:41:35 [IanJ]
- Compound documents are easy to create, syntactically
- 19:41:35 [IanJ]
- Because of differences in processing models, the combinations can be difficult to manage.
- 19:42:18 [IanJ]
- Steven: The XG got together to see what overlapped; they did some implementation work
- 19:42:27 [IanJ]
- Steven: challenges: "Since mainstream browsers don't support compound documents in this way, what are the options for implementation?"
- 19:42:34 [IanJ]
- Options:
- 19:42:35 [IanJ]
- * Server-side 'Compilation' (eg Chiba, Orbeon)
- 19:42:35 [IanJ]
- * Client-side transformation (+judicious Javascript) (eg XSLTForms)
- 19:42:35 [IanJ]
- * Client-side implementation (Using XBL and/or Unobtrusive Javascript) (eg SVGWeb, AmpleSDK, Ubiquity, FormFaces)
- 19:42:45 [kaz]
- kaz has joined #tpac
- 19:43:06 [IanJ]
- [Demo of multi-source document]
- 19:43:14 [IanJ]
- Conclusion: In the light of the emerging trend to implement XML vocabularies in Unobtrusive Javascript libraries, we recommend work on standardising the interface between the libraries, so that vocabularies can work together seamlessly, and without prior negotiation.
- 19:43:38 [IanJ]
- [Questions]
- 19:44:05 [mmani]
- mmani has joined #tpac
- 19:44:08 [IanJ]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/app-backplane/XGR-app-backplane-20091030/ Final Backplane XG report
- 19:44:18 [IanJ]
- [Speaker: Dominique Hazael-Massieux]
- 19:44:23 [IanJ]
- Title: Cheatsheet for developers
- 19:44:38 [JF]
- JF has joined #tpac
- 19:44:43 [IanJ]
- -> http://dev.w3.org/2009/cheatsheet/ The Cheatsheet
- 19:45:06 [IanJ]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/11-tpac-cheatsheet/slides.svg Dom's slides on cheatsheet
- 19:45:49 [IanJ]
- [Dom demos the cheatsheet]
- 19:46:55 [IanJ]
- [Dom shows the cheatsheet tool gives access to info about wai quicktips, i18n tips, css properties, typography, more]
- 19:46:57 [Magnus]
- Magnus has joined #tpac
- 19:47:07 [IanJ]
- dom: open source, widget-ready, possible extensions.
- 19:47:23 [IanJ]
- dom: am looking for suggestions to make the tool more useful
- 19:48:12 [IanJ]
- [No questions]
- 19:48:17 [IanJ]
- Roger Cutler: Great!
- 19:48:26 [fantasai]
- fantasai has joined #tpac
- 19:48:26 [IanJ]
- Speaker: Charles McCathieNevile
- 19:48:31 [DanC]
- hmm... I'm trying to look up "following-sibling" and losing.
- 19:48:33 [timeless]
- s/Great/How can you question it, it's Great/
- 19:48:49 [JereK]
- JereK has joined #tpac
- 19:49:18 [Lachy]
- Lachy has joined #tpac
- 19:49:23 [IanJ]
- Title: "Opera Unite"
- 19:49:38 [IanJ]
- Charles: We said Opera would revolutionize the Web and we came up with a Web server.
- 19:49:42 [timeless]
- [laughter]
- 19:49:48 [IanJ]
- Charles: Opera handles IPv6!
- 19:49:51 [timeless]
- [Larry: does it have an ipv6 address]
- 19:49:55 [IanJ]
- Charles: How to make a widget...
- 19:50:09 [IanJ]
- [Slides not available yet]
- 19:50:14 [dom]
- DanC, I only have xpath function and operators, probably not xpath axis
- 19:50:23 [IanJ]
- Charles: We have a course on creating an Opera widget...will move it to "w3c" widget...need to add one line.
- 19:50:26 [Judy]
- Judy has joined #tpac
- 19:50:33 [jjc]
- http://widsith.chaals.operaunite.com/
- 19:50:33 [IanJ]
- Charles: Opera unite is a personal web server.
- 19:51:08 [IanJ]
- Charles: "Disposable Web-serving"
- 19:51:18 [IanJ]
- Charles; Portable domain space in your browser.
- 19:51:34 [shawn]
- s/ wai quicktips/ web accessibility quicktips-WCAG 2 at a Glance, HTML Techniques for WCAG 2.0/
- 19:51:35 [timeless]
- s/Charles;/Charlses:/
- 19:51:36 [IanJ]
- Charles: Easy for developers; create a conf file.
- 19:51:37 [kford]
- kford has joined #tpac
- 19:51:41 [timeless]
- s/Charlses/Charles/
- 19:52:11 [IanJ]
- [Charles shows other things you can do with Opera Unite]
- 19:52:26 [raman]
- what namespace is config.xml in?
- 19:52:37 [IanJ]
- [Questions]
- 19:52:48 [IanJ]
- Steven Pemberton: Is the server running only when Opera is running?
- 19:53:12 [IanJ]
- Charles: Yes. It's stuff you only need in some situations; not an enterprise server. E.g., I don't need openid when my machine is turned off.
- 19:53:19 [IanJ]
- Speaker: Roger Cutler
- 19:53:33 [IanJ]
- Title: Semantic Web in the Oil & Gas Industry,
- 19:53:43 [jun]
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- 19:53:43 [IanJ]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/SWOG-LTtpac09.pdf Roger Cutler slides
- 19:54:00 [chaals]
- --> http://widsith.chaals.operaunite.com/webserver_2/content/slides/0911-tpac-unite.zip the 2.5MB that will overload me if everyone does it at once
- 19:54:40 [chaals]
- --> http://widsith.chaals.operaunite.com/webserver_2/content/slides/0911-tpac-unite the live version (until I turn off my laptop and stop caring and sharing :) )
- 19:54:55 [IanJ]
- Roger: I have gone from being skeptic about sem web in oil and gas to being an evangelist.
- 19:54:59 [jun]
- jun has joined #tpac
- 19:55:20 [IanJ]
- Roger: We have tons of data!
- 19:55:35 [IanJ]
- Roger: our subject matter experts spend most of their time doing information management badly.
- 19:56:08 [IanJ]
- Roger: Value proposition came from this apsect of semantic Web
- 19:56:41 [IanJ]
- Roger: We hosted a Workshop in 2008. Answered some questions on opportunities in Oil & Gas industry: demonstrated interest; but don't know how to move forward.
- 19:57:00 [benjick]
- Abusing the /me are we? :(
- 19:57:34 [IanJ]
- [Questions]
- 19:57:41 [timeless]
- Laurie: people from the semantic web community
- 19:57:51 [IanJ]
- Kai Scheppe: How did you get resources allocated for this effort?
- 19:57:59 [IanJ]
- Roger: We have a collaboration with CSOFT
- 19:58:11 [timeless]
- ScribeNick: timeless
- 19:58:18 [timeless]
- Laurie: Ahamud from ...
- 19:58:29 [IanJ]
- Speaker: Arnaud de Moissac (SFR)
- 19:58:34 [IanJ]
- s/Laurie/Marie/g
- 19:58:38 [timeless]
- s/Ahamud/Arnaud/
- 19:58:43 [IanJ]
- Title: United we(b and net) stand!
- 19:58:52 [timeless]
- Arnaud: ...
- 19:58:53 [caribou]
- s/Laurie/Marie
- 19:59:06 [IanJ]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/unitedWeb-LTtpac09.pdf Arnaud's slides
- 19:59:11 [timeless]
- [United We(b and Net) Stand]
- 19:59:23 [timeless]
- ... today sometime we can see ...
- 19:59:34 [timeless]
- ... net neutrality
- 19:59:41 [timeless]
- ... when you read ...
- 19:59:47 [timeless]
- ... you can see that people ask for... to have
- 19:59:52 [timeless]
- ... the most transparent ...
- 20:00:01 [timeless]
- ... What about collaboration?
- 20:00:07 [timeless]
- ... what we have to keep in mind...
- 20:00:08 [JereK]
- JereK has left #tpac
- 20:00:12 [timeless]
- ... is we will always have access issues
- 20:00:20 [timeless]
- ... because of mobile access networks
- 20:00:30 [timeless]
- ... you have to keep in mind mobile access equipment and routers
- 20:00:45 [timeless]
- ... you have to keep in mind that routers will always drop packets in an arbitrary web
- 20:00:59 [massimowww]
- massimowww has joined #tpac
- 20:01:04 [timeless]
- ... We don't have to add an optimizer to the network
- 20:01:21 [timeless]
- ... The web should be able to talk to the network about priority
- 20:01:35 [timeless]
- ... As Elisa said in the last talk about IETF
- 20:01:44 [timeless]
- ... we need collaboration between the web world and the network world
- 20:01:48 [timeless]
- ... the beauty of this system]
- 20:01:54 [timeless]
- s/]//
- 20:01:56 [timeless]
- ... in the first approach
- 20:02:00 [timeless]
- ... we can use only the browser
- 20:02:08 [timeless]
- ... that information is set in the css
- 20:02:20 [timeless]
- ... a web browser could use this information to get a better experience to the user
- 20:02:25 [timeless]
- ... Thank you
- 20:02:31 [timeless]
- Maurie: thanks Arnaud
- 20:02:41 [timeless]
- Ralph?:
- 20:02:48 [timeless]
- ... i wasn't clear if this was a work in progress
- 20:02:50 [timeless]
- ... or a proposal
- 20:02:57 [timeless]
- Arnaud: it's work in progress in my lab
- 20:03:01 [timeless]
- ... the idea of the lightning talk
- 20:03:05 [timeless]
- ... is to get your opinion
- 20:03:09 [timeless]
- ... does it make sense, is it stupid
- 20:03:20 [timeless]
- Maurie: yes, get in touch with our lightning talk speakers
- 20:03:25 [timeless]
- ... during the breaks, and discuss with them
- 20:03:32 [timeless]
- ... i guess it's time for lunch
- 20:03:32 [mauro]
- s/Maurie/Marie/
- 20:03:41 [timeless]
- Ralph: ok, thank you, and Lunch
- 20:03:47 [timeless]
- ... we'll reconvene in 90 mins
- 20:03:48 [Zakim]
- -shadi
- 20:04:11 [mauro]
- ==== ADJOURNED for the morning ====
- 20:04:31 [caribou]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 20:04:31 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html caribou
- 20:04:32 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html mauro
- 20:04:33 [Tobias]
- haha funny to see the quitting when everyone saw "lunch" :D
- 20:04:55 [caribou]
- RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
- 20:04:57 [Nightwolf]
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- 20:05:04 [jun]
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- 20:11:00 [Suresh]
- Suresh has joined #tpac
- 20:11:33 [Suresh]
- Can someone pls post the link to the talk on migration to IPv6?
- 20:19:23 [malpensante]
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- 20:34:46 [richardschwerdtfe]
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- 20:36:47 [richardschwerdtfe]
- must be a break
- 20:36:57 [Tobias]
- Yup, lunch I believe
- 20:37:07 [richardschwerdtfe]
- thanks
- 20:37:22 [Judy]
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- 21:09:06 [Zakim]
- +wiecha
- 21:09:21 [shadi]
- zakim, wiecha is really me
- 21:09:21 [Zakim]
- +shadi; got it
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- tasty lunch? :)
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- -shadi
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- 21:31:43 [Liam]
- Topic: privacy
- 21:31:50 [Liam]
- scribe: Liam
- 21:31:56 [glazou]
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- 21:32:17 [annevk]
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- 21:32:19 [Liam]
- Rigo Wenning chairing the panel, gives short introduction on privacy...
- 21:32:32 [greenberg]
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- 21:32:37 [Liam]
- Rigo: why do we care about privacy? For most people it's about spam, intrusive phone calls....
- 21:32:39 [shawn]
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- 21:32:49 [Liam]
- but it's a human right, it's in most declarations of human rights
- 21:33:06 [Liam]
- When I was working on law, I wondered about why we need it, got an answer, it's about autonomy
- 21:33:23 [DavidC]
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- 21:33:27 [Liam]
- if others know more about us then our ability to express our own opinion runs into trouble...
- 21:33:31 [glaser]
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- 21:33:36 [Liam]
- many difficulties with democratic process
- 21:33:43 [Steven]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 21:33:43 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see MeetingRoom
- 21:33:54 [Liam]
- Privacy by design, collections of data...
- 21:34:03 [youenn]
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- 21:34:11 [Liam]
- On this panel we'll have privacy challenges, express concerns, and then we'll open the floor.
- 21:34:18 [jmorris]
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- 21:34:26 [Vladimir]
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- 21:34:31 [Liam]
- In the 2nd round we'll talk about remedies, how can we put Privacy by Design into the Web
- 21:34:33 [JF]
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- 21:34:35 [Liam]
- what are the challengies
- 21:34:38 [Julian]
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- 21:34:48 [timbl]
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- 21:34:54 [W3C]
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- 21:35:11 [IanJ]
- * Adam Barth (UC Berkeley)
- 21:35:11 [IanJ]
- * Deirdre Mulligan (UC Berkeley School of Information)
- 21:35:11 [IanJ]
- * Brad Templeton (Electronic Frontier Foundation)
- 21:35:11 [IanJ]
- * Doug Turner (Mozilla)
- 21:35:11 [IanJ]
- 14:30
- 21:35:12 [IanJ]
- to
- 21:35:14 [IanJ]
- 15:30
- 21:35:16 [IanJ]
- s/14:30//
- 21:35:17 [Liam]
- [Rigo introduces panelists]
- 21:35:21 [Zakim]
- +[IBM]
- 21:35:22 [IanJ]
- s/15:30//
- 21:35:30 [wiecha]
- zakim, [IBM] is wiecha
- 21:35:30 [Zakim]
- +wiecha; got it
- 21:35:31 [nord_c]
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- 21:35:49 [chaals]
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- 21:35:57 [Liam]
- Adam: geolocation, technical way to let an application tell a server where you are
- 21:36:09 [ht]
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- 21:36:13 [Liam]
- ...a number of issues...
- 21:36:14 [glazou]
- s/Adam/Doug Turner
- 21:36:15 [tlr]
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- 21:36:24 [Liam]
- Web Apps typically don't know where you are
- 21:36:33 [brutzman]
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- 21:36:40 [Claes]
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- 21:36:41 [Liam]
- they can work out what cll towers are around you, your IP address, etc., but no way to translate that into anything meaningful
- 21:36:48 [Liam]
- so we all rely on service providers to do that for us
- 21:36:49 [glazou]
- chaals, ask the guys bottom-right of room ?
- 21:36:54 [maraki]
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- 21:36:57 [Liam]
- but that data is typically not free [zero-dollar].
- 21:37:01 [vincent]
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- 21:37:20 [Liam]
- so if the user browses the web, someone under the covers is doing reverse translation to a location, an address
- 21:37:28 [mac]
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- 21:37:32 [Liam]
- and the user isn't invloved, shouldn't be involved, in seeing that
- 21:37:37 [Kangchan]
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- 21:37:38 [JereK]
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- 21:37:49 [Liam]
- so it's up to the implementors to uphold the users' privacy
- 21:37:53 [pjsg]
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- 21:38:01 [JonathanJ]
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- 21:38:14 [Liam]
- at mozilla I do a whole bunch of device stuff, some things are really sensitive, geolocation, also camera
- 21:38:39 [arun]
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- 21:38:42 [Liam]
- big privacy concerns with taking a picture and putting it on the Web with someone's mobile device
- 21:38:49 [Liam]
- we don't have a good model on the Web
- 21:39:02 [Liam]
- right now with iphone you get a dialogue to ask you if it's OK to use your location
- 21:39:38 [Liam]
- but you quickly want "grant all", and that's not good, neither is too many questions, and the user doesn't really know what's going on
- 21:39:52 [Liam]
- Many web pages today use iframes to embed ads, widgets...
- 21:40:36 [Liam]
- imagine you go to a popular web site & they use device access
- 21:40:59 [Liam]
- the user goes to the web site, or uses the app, and sees cnn.com or whatever, and the iframe will want to use the location or camera
- 21:41:19 [Liam]
- and the dialogue says, "can this site use the information" but the user won't generally notice there's an embedded iframe
- 21:41:34 [Liam]
- My suggestion was embedding iframes or embedded content from using device access
- 21:41:50 [Liam]
- [next speaker]
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- 21:41:58 [Judy]
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- 21:41:59 [Liam]
- Brad Templeton, cloud applications & privacy
- 21:42:08 [Liam]
- [slide 2, explosion]
- 21:42:18 [Liam]
- [slide 3, pendulum]
- 21:42:50 [Liam]
- Web apps bring us back to timesharing
- 21:42:57 [Liam]
- [slide 4, Data out of your hands]
- 21:43:03 [cheol]
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- 21:43:22 [Liam]
- no "reasonable expectation of privacy'", no 4th amendment, if the data is out of your hands, e.g. on the cloud
- 21:43:28 [Liam]
- so it's like removing a line from the Bill of Rights
- 21:43:36 [Liam]
- [slide: 4th amendment, crossed out]
- 21:43:51 [Zakim]
- +??P3
- 21:43:57 [mauro]
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
- 21:44:02 [Liam]
- [slide: facebook reversed signup dynamic]
- 21:44:04 [shadi]
- zakim, ??p3 is me
- 21:44:04 [Zakim]
- +shadi; got it
- 21:44:42 [Liam]
- [slide: we're changing the balance (of how privacy flows)]
- 21:44:52 [Liam]
- People should be aware of what's happening
- 21:45:05 [Liam]
- [slide: no-one cares about privacy until after it's been invaded]
- 21:45:12 [Liam]
- [slide: Ease of use can be a bug!]
- 21:45:29 [Liam]
- All the shy people in the room please stand up
- 21:45:33 [Liam]
- they never defend their rights
- 21:45:40 [Liam]
- some people can't live with being watched
- 21:46:14 [rkuntsch]
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- 21:46:21 [mth]
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- 21:46:27 [Liam]
- If you make it easy for someone to transfer all their data to another site, like the checkbox on facebook, it's easy to ask for, "please give me all your friends and their blood types, how often you had sex with them"
- 21:46:39 [Liam]
- people don't put that on forms, but on facebook it's one click
- 21:46:49 [Liam]
- [slide; Easy to do is Easy to demand]
- 21:46:57 [Liam]
- every site will make you login
- 21:47:11 [AxelPolleres]
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- 21:47:14 [Liam]
- mag strip on driver's licence, you go in a bar and they swipe the licence!
- 21:47:22 [Liam]
- [slide; user choice can be a bug]
- 21:47:41 [Liam]
- click to agree, no negotiation, negotiation only happens with power
- 21:47:50 [ericP]
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- 21:47:55 [Liam]
- how many read those long contracts on the Web?
- 21:47:58 [Liam]
- [rigo puts p hand]
- 21:48:03 [Liam]
- s/ p / up /
- 21:48:25 [Liam]
- [slide: Two choices]
- 21:48:55 [Liam]
- more users - can team up, "tin foil hat" people can have our way but not when there are too many servers
- 21:49:02 [Liam]
- [slide: cloud inhibits user power]
- 21:49:06 [kford]
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- 21:49:19 [Liam]
- BEPSI, bulk export of your private & sensitive information
- 21:49:26 [Liam]
- [slide: data exported is lost]
- 21:49:34 [chaals]
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- 21:49:39 [Liam]
- [slide: we must take care not to build the infrastructure of a plice state]
- 21:50:04 [Liam]
- free-or-policestate switch, don't push this!
- 21:50:14 [Liam]
- [slide: arm tanks in the streets]
- 21:50:18 [Liam]
- s/arm/army/
- 21:50:46 [Liam]
- we're changing it, if you want to wiretap every citizen, whitehouse can call... and do it
- 21:50:48 [howard]
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- 21:51:00 [Liam]
- [slide: china, saudi arabia, future china, nightmare #1]
- 21:51:05 [Liam]
- we sell all our technology
- 21:51:14 [Liam]
- with wiretap ability
- 21:51:26 [kawata]
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- 21:51:28 [Liam]
- [photo: time traveling robots from the future]
- 21:51:48 [Liam]
- what we do is being recorded, the bots of the future will be able to punish you for what you did years ago!
- 21:51:56 [Liam]
- [slide: Falun gong on Facebook]
- 21:52:17 [Liam]
- Chinese gov decided they didn't like FG, rounded them up. Wouldn't it have been easy if they had all been on facebook?
- 21:52:27 [IanJ]
- Note to attendees: feedback survey -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/tpac2009-feedback/
- 21:52:29 [AnnB]
- message re: photo: beware of time traveling robots from future
- 21:52:31 [ericP]
- what does "throw sheep at your friends" mean?
- 21:52:39 [Liam]
- [it's a facebook app]
- 21:52:44 [AnnB]
- farm game in Facebook
- 21:52:45 [Liam]
- [next speaker]
- 21:52:59 [Liam]
- Privacy is hard, how many have gone on your computer and looked at your privacy settings?
- 21:53:06 [Liam]
- e.g. on facebook
- 21:53:18 [Liam]
- if you look at someone's friends, you can infer their sexual orientation, for example
- 21:53:26 [jmorris]
- Adam Barth
- 21:53:29 [ddahl2]
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- 21:53:40 [Liam]
- netfilix released movie renting data, and you can figure out who 80% of people are,
- 21:54:08 [Liam]
- people rent so many movies that as a dimensional space, people are hugely differentiated, so doesn't need much extra info to locate people
- 21:54:23 [Liam]
- People are getting excited about cookie blockers
- 21:54:35 [howard]
- sorry Karen, for just responding
- 21:54:35 [Liam]
- 3rd party cookie blockers don't help your privacy
- 21:54:49 [Liam]
- there's an economic incentive for advertisers to know more about you
- 21:55:12 [Liam]
- so instead of making the world a harder way to do business, via small privacy leaks, we need an overall solution that can't easily be worked around
- 21:55:26 [fhirsch]
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- 21:55:28 [Liam]
- [next panelist, Deirdre Mulligan]
- 21:55:46 [Liam]
- What can we do to help privacy online? and what does that even mean in this day & age?
- 21:55:50 [fo]
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- 21:56:05 [Liam]
- Brad posed this idea we're heading toward an environment where our data is all over the place, we've lost all control,
- 21:56:12 [Liam]
- we're sleepwalking into a surveillance state
- 21:56:32 [Liam]
- and as we take our data & have it sucked up by the cloud, it's the same information but it's not in the 4 walls of your house, legal protections gone
- 21:56:39 [Liam]
- And that's not a problem you guys can solve
- 21:56:39 [youenn]
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- 21:56:47 [Liam]
- I hope that you'll help, through political action
- 21:57:08 [Liam]
- We can change the legal environment,...
- 21:57:21 [Liam]
- we want to be able to share information, pics of my kids, e.g., limited to my family
- 21:57:42 [Liam]
- but the fact that I put them online shouldn't determine the legal protection, e.g. if the government wants to see my pictures
- 21:58:00 [Liam]
- So this question, what does it mean if you're a designer & you want to be sensitive to privacy issues...
- 21:58:15 [Liam]
- ..I'd be slightly frustrated, privacy reduced to a series of dialogue boxes...
- 21:58:41 [timeless]
- s/dialogue/dialog/
- 21:58:42 [Liam]
- ...reading them could be a full-time job for any of us.. privacy has been left to the lawyers, and we've ended up with this situation...
- 21:58:47 [nick]
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- 21:59:04 [burn]
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- 21:59:06 [Liam]
- We don't take a long term view on the data set we're building
- 21:59:28 [pbaggia]
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- 21:59:35 [Liam]
- e.g. the protection model of privacy, this is a process-oriented view, that you understand what I'm asking for, and make a decision,..
- 21:59:49 [Liam]
- and then as the person who collected the data I have obligations about how I use it,...
- 22:00:01 [timeless]
- [ http://www.w3.org/P3P/ - Platform for Privacy Preferences (P3P) Project ]
- 22:00:13 [Liam]
- but at the end, if we made some huge database we'd still have "privacy" that isn't really privacy at all, everything exposed.
- 22:00:31 [Liam]
- So today we're seeing a richer conversation, what might it mean to have a legal perspective on privacy
- 22:00:39 [Liam]
- see a paper by Adam Bath [and others]
- 22:00:47 [Liam]
- a conservative view on what privacy means and how to protect it
- 22:01:00 [Liam]
- you can look at people's mental models, too, how do people expect information to flow?
- 22:01:07 [Liam]
- who do they think they're interacting with
- 22:01:16 [John_Boyer]
- lol. Is there a way to have it in modules/specXML ?
- 22:01:18 [Liam]
- o users understand there's a third party asking to turn on their camera? probably not
- 22:01:30 [Liam]
- s/o /Do /
- 22:01:39 [Liam]
- Do people understand who they're interacting with?
- 22:01:42 [silvia]
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- 22:02:09 [Ralph]
- -> http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1130373 "Privacy and Contextual Integrity: Framework and Applications"; Barth, Datta, Mitchell, Nissenbaum
- 22:02:10 [Liam]
- You probably all remember the sony rootkit drm fiasco, users didn't understand that inserting the CD would install s/w and "phone home"
- 22:02:30 [Liam]
- FTC in US loked at this, and said, it's a CD, it looks like a CD, it should act like a CD
- 22:02:31 [Zakim]
- +Lalana
- 22:02:45 [timeless]
- s/lok/look/
- 22:02:46 [Liam]
- consumers don't understand that [audio] CDs can load software onto a computer, can open a network connection
- 22:03:01 [Liam]
- and the consumer shouldn't have to understand complex legal text to learn this..
- 22:03:07 [Liam]
- a more contextual view of privacy
- 22:03:39 [Liam]
- So, you might have more work at the front end.. might be different at IETF and W3C, to think about information flow, and where...
- 22:03:53 [Liam]
- ...it might be meaningful to develop prompts, and reduce the burden of prompts
- 22:04:09 [chaals]
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- 22:04:16 [Liam]
- Brad: I challenged this in my talk, I don't think notices are the answer
- 22:04:22 [Liam]
- Deirdre: yes, we agree
- 22:04:33 [ArtB]
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- 22:04:41 [Liam]
- Rigo: comments from the floor?
- 22:04:53 [Liam]
- Roger Cutler: I'd like to bring up another point of view
- 22:05:03 [timeless]
- s/Cutler/Cutler (from Chevron)/
- 22:05:04 [Liam]
- I work for a company that takes its legal & ethical responsibilities seriously
- 22:05:12 [raman]
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- 22:05:21 [Lachy]
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- 22:05:25 [Julian]
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- 22:05:28 [Liam]
- it'd be appreciated if you could come up with something simple to comply with, to understand
- 22:05:46 [rlewis3]
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- 22:05:57 [Liam]
- Doug: the usability of ... moizilla has posted a diagram about how information flows
- 22:06:04 [Liam]
- something like that for the law might help
- 22:06:21 [Liam]
- Deirdre: "why don't you lawyers use a formal language", I get asked by engineers
- 22:06:26 [timeless]
- s/moizilla/mozilla/
- 22:06:38 [Liam]
- but negotiation is political, some of the ambiguity you view as problematic, is that people decided to save the battle for another day
- 22:06:56 [Liam]
- we want it to be evolutionary, we want to go to court and fight over what it is, so it's not a bug, it's a feature!
- 22:07:11 [Liam]
- A student said, wow, you guys don't get a lot of chances to do versioning
- 22:07:18 [Liam]
- and I said, no, that's what courts are for!
- 22:07:36 [Liam]
- the law doesn't move in Internet time, doesn't change every 6 months, so we often use more open language so it can evolve
- 22:07:56 [Liam]
- so if you take something ambiguous and turn it into a yes/no question, you are taking a side
- 22:08:18 [Liam]
- Adam: from a user's perspective, hard to find privacy policy on a web page, then hard to understand it
- 22:08:30 [Liam]
- tried to find similarities with creative comments
- 22:08:51 [Liam]
- categories with how media can be used, e.g. see an icon and it has some type of meaning... probably outside scope of W3C
- 22:09:00 [dom]
- s/Adam/DougT/
- 22:09:21 [noahm]
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- 22:09:22 [Liam]
- having a lay person not having to read tons of text
- 22:09:24 [Jim]
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- 22:09:35 [Liam]
- Brad: we started something like this, didn't work out :(
- 22:10:00 [Liam]
- timbl: Danny W used to come ot these meetings but he's swallowed up by the whitehouse for 2 yrs, but his attitude, privacy shouldn't be about
- 22:10:02 [timeless]
- s/this/this ("trustE")/
- 22:10:06 [IanJ]
- timbl: Channeling Danny Weitzner : appropriate use
- 22:10:08 [Liam]
- deciding who gets what, but expectations about appropriate use
- 22:10:15 [timeless]
- [ http://www.truste.com/ ]
- 22:10:34 [Liam]
- should I as a facebook user, you should be able to say, e.g. if you're a prospective employer I don't license you to use the info for denying me a job
- 22:10:48 [Liam]
- This is being discussed by the neww Provenance XG
- 22:10:53 [DanC]
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- 22:10:57 [timeless]
- s/neww/new/
- 22:10:59 [Liam]
- have to track provenance through all the systems, find appropriate use
- 22:11:08 [Liam]
- does the panel think that would work?
- 22:11:13 [Liam]
- [some panelist: "no"}
- 22:11:17 [timeless]
- [ http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/ - Incubator Activity > W3C Provenance Incubator Group ]
- 22:11:21 [Liam]
- Rigo: we have 20 minutes left
- 22:11:23 [Liam]
- s/}/]/
- 22:11:28 [IanJ]
- -> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/TAMI/ See the transparent accountable datamining
- 22:11:36 [Liam]
- Rigo: data privacy have scared us, but there are solutions
- 22:11:44 [Liam]
- I've been working on solutions since 1999 at W3C
- 22:11:49 [YolandaG]
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- 22:12:08 [Liam]
- e.g. discussions about data access rights, if people have data about you, in EU, you have right to look at it, correct it, ask them to delete it
- 22:12:13 [Liam]
- but it's only paper
- 22:12:14 [jmorris]
- s/some panelist/Brad Templeton/
- 22:12:23 [Liam]
- what about data access API?
- 22:12:38 [Liam]
- So what are the solutions and challenges to those solutioons?
- 22:13:02 [Liam]
- Doug: firs tproblem is accountability, we can't lie to the user
- 22:13:02 [pbaggia]
- s/solutioons/solutions
- 22:13:05 [jmorris]
- s/ioon/ion/
- 22:13:28 [Liam]
- they're not going to share my pictures, the Web browser can say that happen, e.g. facebook shares all my party pics & I don't get the job, I'm not sure who I am going to blame
- 22:13:34 [gond]
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- 22:13:36 [Liam]
- the future employer or the UA?
- 22:13:43 [Liam]
- I don't know if there's a technical solution.
- 22:14:05 [Liam]
- Some of this happens today. My father has the same name as me. He had an unresolved debt from the 1950s, and I had to sort it out, they started calling me
- 22:14:25 [Liam]
- I can't imagine asking facebook, show all the data you have on me, and I get a crate outside my house, or a couple of DVDs, to go through!
- 22:14:32 [Liam]
- It's a dichotomy, either you use the service or not
- 22:14:44 [Liam]
- when I bought my first house I read every page on that contract...
- 22:14:45 [timeless]
- s/firs t/first /
- 22:14:57 [Liam]
- and my wife said, look, either you buy the house or not, it's not a negotiation
- 22:15:12 [Liam]
- either yuo use facebook and play the sheep game, have sheep thrown at you, or you don't
- 22:15:19 [timeless]
- s/yuo/you/
- 22:15:26 [Liam]
- Dan Glazman: you don't have to use facebook
- 22:15:30 [Liam]
- to raise privacy issues
- 22:15:38 [Liam]
- in Sweden they're using social security number
- 22:15:45 [Liam]
- e.g. for a coupon in a gas station
- 22:15:55 [timeless]
- s/number/number ("social health number")/
- 22:15:55 [Rotan]
- s/security/health/
- 22:16:08 [Liam]
- and there are computers widely available to to check the social health number
- 22:16:17 [Liam]
- it's intensified by the web, but e.g. beaten women are found using it
- 22:16:29 [Liam]
- Brad: regulations have a history of failing, ata gets out regardless of the rules
- 22:16:41 [Liam]
- and the infrastructure to maintain it becomes intractable, or difficult
- 22:16:51 [timeless]
- s/ ata / it /
- 22:17:01 [Liam]
- Eurpean philosophy is "the gov needs to know everything about you in order to check your privacy"
- 22:17:08 [timeless]
- s/ it / data /
- 22:17:15 [Liam]
- I believe we need to try & move the data back into our own control
- 22:17:16 [Rotan]
- s/check/protect/
- 22:17:17 [glazou]
- that was "personnummer"
- 22:17:24 [Liam]
- change the default about how data is collected
- 22:17:40 [Liam]
- I propose data hosting, each user is responsible for getting a small processing power & bandwidth
- 22:17:47 [timeless]
- [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity_number_(Sweden) "personnummer"]
- 22:17:49 [Liam]
- and we ask that the code comes to our machines
- 22:17:53 [chaals]
- s/using data/using the data available keyed from the personnummber/
- 22:17:53 [glazou]
- timeless, number (en) = number (sv)
- 22:17:57 [glazou]
- er
- 22:18:08 [glazou]
- timeless, number (en) = nummer (sv)
- 22:18:11 [Liam]
- So we'd go to the other site, and they'd embed an iframe, and it'd be served by our own host
- 22:18:11 [Eduardo]
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- 22:18:18 [tantek]
- tantek has joined #tpac
- 22:18:29 [mac]
- mac has joined #tpac
- 22:18:31 [Liam]
- some kind of VM, sandboxable, cached, would operate on my data on my computer
- 22:18:37 [Liam]
- and the results would come to my screen
- 22:18:51 [Liam]
- if that's on my own pc it's fast, but there are security issues about running this on your own machine
- 22:18:56 [Liam]
- it's a harder engineering challenge
- 22:19:09 [Liam]
- "there are things worth doing not because they are easy but because they are hard" - JFK
- 22:19:34 [Liam]
- Rigo: data under all user control is one thing, I want to come back to this issue that browsers fear they will be made responsible
- 22:19:58 [Liam]
- We had the same issue with the font activity, browsers said we'd be liable if our s/w violates label on fonts
- 22:20:07 [Liam]
- Deirdre: I want to push on this idea..
- 22:20:18 [Liam]
- when I was reading spec for geolocation it kept talking about user agent
- 22:20:31 [timeless]
- [ laughter ]
- 22:20:41 [Liam]
- I said, I assume this is the browser, but it talks about it as if it were my agent, most users don't experience the browser as oding my bidding
- 22:20:49 [timeless]
- s/oding/doing/
- 22:20:55 [plh]
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- 22:20:56 [Liam]
- I don't think we have that level of connection to our browser that the term UA suggests
- 22:21:19 [marie]
- timeless++
- 22:21:24 [Liam]
- I think it's been a little overhyped
- 22:21:31 [dom]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 22:21:31 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html dom
- 22:21:50 [Liam]
- The other issue I want to touch on, I hopoe there's enough breadth in the marketplace where...
- 22:21:57 [timeless]
- s/hopoe/hope/
- 22:22:00 [Liam]
- data can be local or in the cloud, and law doesn't depend on the data's location
- 22:22:13 [Liam]
- ability to process data might be different for different devices
- 22:22:21 [Liam]
- so wouldn't want the legal framework to drive solutions
- 22:22:30 [Liam]
- and want to go back to complexity issues, right now, 2 choices...
- 22:23:02 [Liam]
- (1) in context of location wg, privacy as a matter of policy, don't develop mechanisms to support ways for people to express info flows
- 22:23:06 [Liam]
- you'll end up with hippos
- 22:23:07 [timeless]
- hipaa - http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/
- 22:23:15 [timeless]
- The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA) Privacy Rule
- 22:23:21 [timeless]
- ScribeNick: timeless
- 22:23:23 [Liam]
- or you can try to make some lightweight principles, e.g. do not re-transmit, one time use
- 22:23:25 [timeless]
- do not retransmit
- 22:23:27 [timeless]
- ... one time use
- 22:23:36 [timeless]
- ... do not make people think before the transmit information
- 22:23:41 [timeless]
- ... it's not just ...
- 22:23:48 [timeless]
- ... it's not just that it tells you how tall she is
- 22:23:54 [timeless]
- ... it's that it lets you locate her
- 22:24:04 [timeless]
- ... so legally people are going to want this information protected
- 22:24:14 [timeless]
- ... the dominant uses for information in the us is young people
- 22:24:15 [Ralph]
- s/hoppos/HIPPA
- 22:24:22 [timeless]
- ... relying on consent ...
- 22:24:27 [Ralph]
- s/HIPPA/HIPAA/
- 22:24:30 [timeless]
- ... you have an opportunity to think about the
- 22:24:38 [timeless]
- ... it's going to be way worse if you wait
- 22:24:45 [timeless]
- Doug: I don't think we picked UA to be
- 22:24:48 [timeless]
- ... an enduring term
- 22:24:52 [timeless]
- ... it's a technical term
- 22:24:59 [timeless]
- ... browser user agent ....
- 22:25:06 [Rotan]
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- 22:25:13 [timeless]
- ... the other thing is that you know, browsers have worked a long time to sandbox content
- 22:25:16 [timeless]
- ... and our ui
- 22:25:19 [timeless]
- ... for spoofing reasons
- 22:25:26 [timeless]
- ... you don't want to go to a site that puts our ui up
- 22:25:33 [timeless]
- ... and
- 22:25:48 [timeless]
- ... so there's an idea of sandboxing content from chrome
- 22:25:53 [timeless]
- ... [not google chrome]
- 22:26:04 [timeless]
- ... the idea is that any time the user sees a ui from our agent
- 22:26:17 [AndyS]
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- 22:26:23 [timeless]
- ... we do a lot of work to make sure we're sure that what we show is accurate
- 22:26:28 [timeless]
- ... if we bring a dialog down
- 22:26:41 [timeless]
- ... we want an expectation to be sure that what we said is what actually happened
- 22:26:47 [timeless]
- ... you can put something in HTML
- 22:27:02 [timeless]
- ... in a DIV... that claims "we won't retransmit"
- 22:27:08 [timeless]
- ... but that isn't the best thing to do technically
- 22:27:15 [timeless]
- someone: Jeremy?
- 22:27:18 [timeless]
- someone-else:
- 22:27:20 [timeless]
- ... it seems to me
- 22:27:23 [timeless]
- ... that
- 22:27:25 [timeless]
- ... 2 items
- 22:27:29 [timeless]
- ... legal rememdies
- 22:27:31 [Liam]
- s/Jeremy/Jeremy Carrol/
- 22:27:32 [chaals]
- Jeremy Carroll, TopQuadrant
- 22:27:32 [timeless]
- ... technical rememdies
- 22:27:41 [timeless]
- ... it's only the legal end that really works
- 22:27:44 [Liam]
- s/Carrol/Carroll, TopQuadrant/
- 22:27:47 [timeless]
- ... the technical end is doomed to failure
- 22:27:55 [timeless]
- ... I go into a shop, i buy my groceries
- 22:28:01 [timeless]
- ... unless i hide my face,
- 22:28:05 [timeless]
- ... and change my clothes
- 22:28:16 [timeless]
- ... there's nothing that can be done
- 22:28:22 [timeless]
- ... we have to be public people in public spaces
- 22:28:26 [timeless]
- ... we're social animals
- 22:28:30 [timeless]
- ... privacy is a concept of the law
- 22:28:38 [timeless]
- ... we need to have societies that we trust enough
- 22:28:47 [timeless]
- ... to have frameworks that we trust enough
- 22:28:52 [timeless]
- ... instead of cheating on us
- 22:29:00 [timeless]
- Henry Thomson (Univ Edinborough):
- 22:29:02 [sandro]
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- 22:29:07 [timeless]
- ... I was intrigued by X's
- 22:29:12 [timeless]
- ... and tried to come back to it
- 22:29:13 [Liam]
- s/Thomson/Thompson/
- 22:29:19 [timeless]
- ... i'm enough of a geek to try to manage my data
- 22:29:25 [timeless]
- ... i have a server somewhere, it's "my server"
- 22:29:30 [kawata]
- kawata has left #tpac
- 22:29:31 [Lachy]
- Lachy has joined #tpac
- 22:29:32 [timeless]
- ... but it's not in my space that i actually control
- 22:29:35 [BryanSullivan]
- BryanSullivan has joined #TPAC
- 22:29:36 [timeless]
- ... i rent it from somewhere
- 22:29:44 [timeless]
- ... let's say that the law says that it's mine
- 22:29:49 [timeless]
- ... let's say that i back up my data
- 22:29:59 [timeless]
- ... the value of the backup is that it's not in the same physical location
- 22:30:05 [sandro]
- +1 jjc --- we've lost our privacy, technically, walking around in public spaces, shopping, etc.
- 22:30:06 [timeless]
- ... i back it up in the cloud (amazon)
- 22:30:14 [timeless]
- ... I don't encrypt my data
- 22:30:23 [timeless]
- ... I need a legal remedy
- 22:30:29 [timeless]
- ... I can't manage it all by myself
- 22:30:37 [timeless]
- ... and there's no question that my father in law can
- 22:30:42 [timeless]
- panelist:
- 22:30:47 [timeless]
- ... you could encrypt the backup you send out
- 22:30:53 [Liam]
- s/panelist/Brad/
- 22:30:56 [IanJ]
- Brad: Neither law nor technology provides a complete solution (alone).
- 22:31:00 [timeless]
- ... or you could have the backup server legally defined as your property
- 22:31:07 [chaals]
- [In a small village, privacy is a different beast]
- 22:31:09 [adrianba]
- s/Edinborough/Edinburgh/
- 22:31:14 [timeless]
- .... the law isn't intended to protect small institutions
- 22:31:22 [timeless]
- someone-s:
- 22:31:22 [marisol]
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- 22:31:24 [chaals]
- Nikunj Mehta
- 22:31:30 [timeless]
- ... can we address the privacy fears we have
- 22:31:32 [chaals]
- s/someone-s/Nikunj Mehta/
- 22:31:38 [timeless]
- ... using good sharing techniques
- 22:31:48 [timeless]
- ... as with digital rights techniques
- 22:31:54 [chaals]
- s/Nikunj Mehta//
- 22:31:55 [timeless]
- ... that are used by large companies
- 22:32:04 [timeless]
- panelistx-:
- 22:32:08 [timeless]
- ... prime rights (?)
- 22:32:15 [timeless]
- ... there are large parallels between large data
- 22:32:24 [timeless]
- ... we'll have a lightning talk on this later
- 22:32:27 [Liam]
- [rigo: w3c participates in www.primelife.eu ]
- 22:32:30 [timeless]
- Frederick Hirsh (Nokia):
- 22:32:40 [timeless]
- ... technically any failure with privacy is a complete failure
- 22:32:40 [PIon]
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- 22:32:45 [kawata]
- kawata has joined #tpac
- 22:32:45 [timeless]
- ... you have information, it gets out
- 22:32:49 [timeless]
- ... you're done
- 22:32:49 [Liam]
- s/panelistx-/Rigo/
- 22:32:52 [Steven]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 22:32:52 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html Steven
- 22:32:57 [andrew]
- s/panelistx-:/Rigo Wenning:/
- 22:32:57 [timeless]
- ... legally, it sounds like a boil the ocean
- 22:33:05 [timeless]
- ... if ... it's cumbersome
- 22:33:18 [timeless]
- ... I'm worrying about being overwhelmed
- 22:33:21 [timeless]
- ... having to read checkboxes
- 22:33:28 [cheol]
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- 22:33:30 [timeless]
- panelist-y:
- 22:33:32 [timeless]
- ... i don't think so
- 22:33:36 [timeless]
- ... there are efforts to make sure
- 22:33:41 [timeless]
- ... we did step in and pass this law
- 22:33:49 [timeless]
- ... called the electronic information privacy act
- 22:33:52 [jmorris]
- s/panelist-y/Deirdre Mulligan/
- 22:34:01 [timeless]
- ... designed to give the same protection for email as for mail
- 22:34:08 [timeless]
- ... the way the justice dept uses this statue
- 22:34:15 [timeless]
- ... might turn on whether you've opened it or not
- 22:34:23 [timeless]
- ... the law might change based on how old it is
- 22:34:30 [Marcos]
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- 22:34:32 [timeless]
- ... if you pulled the data down
- 22:34:36 [timeless]
- ... if it was used for processing
- 22:34:43 [timeless]
- ... or was used by an information service
- 22:34:47 [timeless]
- ... at the time this was passed
- 22:34:52 [timeless]
- ... we thought the content was what mattered
- 22:34:54 [IanJ]
- content v. identity
- 22:34:59 [timeless]
- ... and the identity wasn't considered
- 22:35:10 [timeless]
- ... what we know now is that something can let people know that you're gay
- 22:35:16 [timeless]
- ... today what we have is people who are posting
- 22:35:25 [timeless]
- ... and the privacy they want is their identity
- 22:35:26 [IanJ]
- [interesting: shift from protecting content but not identity to the inverse]
- 22:35:38 [timeless]
- ... law is a way that lets people express national concerns about privacy
- 22:35:44 [timeless]
- ... that might be good to some extent
- 22:35:48 [timeless]
- ... but it might be bad in others
- 22:36:00 [timeless]
- ... -- not one size fits all --
- 22:36:10 [timeless]
- ... how information should flow / and how it should be shared
- 22:36:13 [timeless]
- x:
- 22:36:15 [timeless]
- ... about
- 22:36:19 [timeless]
- Rigo:
- 22:36:23 [timeless]
- ... we've consumed our one hour
- 22:36:26 [timeless]
- [applause ]
- 22:36:34 [timeless]
- ... thanks a lot
- 22:36:50 [timeless]
- -> next set of panelists
- 22:37:05 [ht]
- ScribeNick: ht
- 22:37:11 [ht]
- Scribe: Henry S. Thompson
- 22:37:15 [IanJ]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 22:37:15 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
- 22:37:59 [ht]
- Topic: Web Apps vs App. Stores
- 22:38:13 [ht]
- Chair: Robin Berjon
- 22:38:58 [Zakim]
- -Lalana
- 22:42:27 [ht]
- RobinB: Panel about Web Apps, App Stores and surrounding technology
- 22:43:03 [mac]
- mac has joined #tpac
- 22:43:03 [ht]
- ... What's the difference between using a mail program, and using a mail-reading webapp
- 22:43:11 [mac]
- mac has joined #tpac
- 22:43:35 [ht]
- ... The functional difference is vanishing, and the client/server distinction doesn't mean anything to our users
- 22:43:53 [ht]
- ... So when we talk about this as important, we are in a sense behind our users
- 22:44:19 [shiki]
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- 22:44:23 [ht]
- RobinB: There are differences: Some webapps are accessed directly in the browser
- 22:44:53 [ht]
- ... whereas others are downloaded as zipped packages and installed in the browser more in the way that traditional apps are installed
- 22:45:02 [Liam]
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- 22:45:07 [Rotan]
- Rotan has joined #tpac
- 22:45:21 [ht]
- RobinB: Questions to ask: are these different from the security perspective ?
- 22:45:27 [ht]
- ... or is it just convenience?
- 22:46:22 [ht]
- RobinB: From the business perspective, should we explore how to monetise webapps for developers? "405 payment required"?
- 22:47:15 [Ileana]
- Ileana has joined #TPAC
- 22:47:17 [Ralph]
- Nick Allott (OMTP)
- 22:47:20 [mac2IPO]
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- 22:47:28 [ht]
- sprk1: What is the probability/possibility of webapps replacing traditional apps?
- 22:47:39 [ht]
- ... What are the important different classes of webapps?
- 22:47:50 [ht]
- s/sprk1/NickA/
- 22:48:34 [AxelPolleres]
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- 22:48:41 [ht]
- NickA: Consider BBCiPlayer on iPhone [slide 1]
- 22:50:21 [ht]
- ... three main options (flash/streaming media+native viewer/HTML5 <video>), either via Web2.0 or a Widget
- 22:50:58 [ht]
- ... [missed some]
- 22:51:07 [ht]
- ... normal native app
- 22:51:19 [ht]
- ... develop as webapp, but compile into native
- 22:51:43 [glazou]
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- 22:51:46 [ht]
- NickA: Consider Toodledo on iPhone
- 22:52:06 [ht]
- Four alternatives: Web 2.0, online
- 22:52:15 [ht]
- ... HTML 5, same, but also offline
- 22:52:40 [ht]
- ... Widgets + DAP, offline, with access to your native data, e.g. contacts
- 22:52:43 [ht]
- ... Native
- 22:53:18 [ht]
- s/iPhone/iPhone, a simple calendar+email+contacts app/
- 22:54:27 [ht]
- NickA: W3C role here? W3C gives breadth, and low cost (because of RF requirement)
- 22:55:02 [ht]
- ... Some particular WGs are important here -- e.g. DAP
- 22:55:25 [ht]
- ... [an equation between AppStores and Widgets I didn't quite get]
- 22:55:48 [ht]
- ... AppStore tends to be one-off payment
- 22:56:03 [ht]
- ... Cloud-based tends to be subscription payment
- 22:56:08 [Zakim]
- -wiecha
- 22:56:42 [ht]
- NickA: Challenge -- policy and privacy as approached by HTML WG is different from that of the DAP WG
- 22:57:26 [ht]
- Chaals: W3C Widgets - Editor's perspective
- 22:57:43 [LeeF]
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- 22:58:03 [mgylling]
- mgylling has joined #tpac
- 22:58:05 [ht]
- s/W3C Widgets - Editor's perspective/WebApps could be anything/
- 22:58:29 [ht]
- ... A widget has a bit of pedigree, a bit more of a guarantee
- 22:58:59 [ht]
- ... In the middle, an AppStore, you get a packaged WebApp with _some_ guarantee of quality
- 22:59:54 [ht]
- Chaals: For a Widget Store looking at a W3C-compliant widget, there is some ability to look into the widget code and confirm some properties
- 23:00:14 [ht]
- ... so there is some basis for establishing some trust in the quality
- 23:00:42 [ht]
- Chaals: But consider WebApps again -- how many people use Google apps? [hands go up]
- 23:01:03 [ht]
- ... You do, and you trust them, because of where they come from, not because of any inspection of the inside
- 23:01:23 [ht]
- ... And that's the same as has always been the case, going back to DOS applications in a cardboard box
- 23:01:43 [ht]
- Chaals: None the less, it's a step forward to be able to look inside if you choose to
- 23:02:09 [ht]
- ArunR: There's a "versus" in the title
- 23:02:22 [ht]
- ... I don't feel very adversarial towards AppStores
- 23:02:28 [ht]
- ... but there are questions
- 23:02:29 [rigo]
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- 23:02:46 [burn]
- burn has joined #tpac
- 23:02:50 [ht]
- ArunR: Coming out of WG meetings earlier in the week
- 23:03:01 [dom]
- (thanks very much to the panelists for agreeing to join this panel at the last minute)
- 23:03:18 [ht]
- ... The similarities between Widgets and WebApps are superficial, I suggest
- 23:03:49 [ht]
- ArunR: On the one hand, you can build them in the same way, using the same maybe-W3C technologies
- 23:04:08 [Steven]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 23:04:08 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html Steven
- 23:04:10 [ht]
- ... but WebApps run in a web-like hyperlinked-model-based way
- 23:04:42 [ht]
- ... whereas the Widget runs in a more encapsulated way, maybe on the desktop
- 23:04:58 [ht]
- ... The zipfile is constrained, it's not the same as a web page
- 23:05:15 [ht]
- ... So maybe these are cosmetic differences, but the model _is_ different
- 23:05:45 [ht]
- ArunR: HTML 5 will let you build a music WebApp with playlists and actual audio output
- 23:06:17 [ht]
- ... Or to get at geoloc info, orientation, multitouch aspects of the webapp-hosting-device
- 23:06:32 [ht]
- ... This is a triumph for the Web stack and Javascript
- 23:06:58 [ht]
- ... Privacy and security are however the location of a major difference between the two models
- 23:07:09 [ht]
- MarcesC: [slides]
- 23:07:21 [ht]
- ... W3C Widgets - Editor's perspective
- 23:08:00 [ht]
- ... I've been editting this spec. for a number of years, initial as part of my PhD
- 23:08:05 [maxf]
- s/MarcesC/MarcosC/
- 23:08:05 [howard]
- howard has joined #tpac
- 23:08:14 [ht]
- ... How can we build a universal application packaging format, that can be used anywhere?
- 23:08:32 [ht]
- ... Longevity -- last 100 years
- 23:08:44 [ht]
- ... Similar to HTML 5
- 23:09:26 [ht]
- ... Widgets want to do the same for applications as HTML 5 does for documents in this respect
- 23:10:11 [ht]
- MarcesC: We want a universal platform, built on open standards, so no IDE has to be purchased
- 23:10:28 [Steven]
- s/Marces/Marcos
- 23:10:50 [ht]
- s/Marces/Marcos/g
- 23:11:08 [ht]
- MarcosC: Security and policy is a very important issue
- 23:11:36 [ht]
- ... Putting all your data into a corporate basket is risky, without being critical of any particular corporation
- 23:12:05 [ht]
- ... So a goal for widgets is to enable data to be kept local
- 23:12:29 [ht]
- ... A hybrid model is baked in -- client/server balance
- 23:12:55 [ht]
- ... Concerned with support for monetization
- 23:13:21 [ht]
- ... Pressure for encryption, but inconsistent with 'View Source'
- 23:13:38 [ht]
- ... Just live with it -- be better than the competition, and you will win
- 23:13:52 [ht]
- ... There are plenty of ways to make money
- 23:14:08 [ht]
- RobinB: Floor is open for questions
- 23:14:41 [ht]
- MikeChampion: What about the other side? No-one from Apple? It looks like the market has voted for the AppStore, not the Widgets?
- 23:15:04 [cheol]
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- 23:15:10 [ht]
- ArunR: Not adversarial -- OK to use both
- 23:15:24 [ht]
- ... Why no monetization model behind Firefox extentions?
- 23:15:35 [rahul]
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- 23:15:37 [ht]
- s/extention/extension/
- 23:15:56 [ht]
- Glazou: I disagree there's not adversarial
- 23:16:13 [ht]
- ... Consider the iPhone -- I cannot download any application I want to
- 23:16:26 [ht]
- ... Whereas I can to my browser
- 23:16:42 [ht]
- ... I'm afraid this will close off the user's freedom
- 23:17:12 [ht]
- Glazou: Compare a ?? clone on a iPhone and a Nintendo
- 23:17:24 [Kai]
- s/monetization/monetarization
- 23:17:25 [ht]
- ... The price differential is huge, and will kill ???
- 23:17:29 [glazou]
- s/??/Mario Kart
- 23:17:50 [Judy]
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- 23:17:59 [dom]
- s/???/this industry
- 23:18:01 [ht]
- Chaals: Money talks
- 23:18:25 [ht]
- ... We tried to find a way to develop micropayments, but never managed it
- 23:18:44 [ht]
- ... Credit card payments worked well enough to get us going
- 23:19:00 [ht]
- ... But there are problems, and there's work to be done now to try to fix that
- 23:19:33 [ht]
- ... In the long term we have to solve the challenge of the Apple iPhone appstore
- 23:19:41 [ht]
- ... but for now multiple channels will work
- 23:20:06 [ht]
- Chaals: Coming back to the adversarial point -- not necessarily that way
- 23:20:20 [ht]
- ... After all, some people pay for some content on the Web
- 23:20:35 [ht]
- [scribe not getting all of Chaals's examples]
- 23:21:01 [ht]
- Chaals: The fact that it's a zipfile, instead of zipped on the wire, isn't a big deal
- 23:21:15 [ht]
- ... A file on disk, or a transient webpage -- again, not a big deal
- 23:21:43 [ht]
- NickA: Widget appstore already exist
- 23:21:56 [ht]
- ... Crucial point -- they can be horizontal, i.e. cross-platform
- 23:22:11 [ht]
- ... and that's a real difference wrt the AppStores we see today
- 23:22:55 [ht]
- ArunR: There is a difference, it's a cosmetic difference, and users will be aware of them
- 23:23:03 [ht]
- ... And there will be security differences
- 23:23:05 [dom]
- (it’s more than cosmetic, I think — it’s a different user experience)
- 23:23:42 [ht]
- MarcosC: There are implementations which run Widgets on the server and serve the result as embedded iframes
- 23:23:56 [jallan]
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- 23:24:07 [ht]
- ... If they get digitally signed, the potential to share them will be reduced
- 23:24:37 [ht]
- NoahMendelsohn: Following up on the cross-platform aspect, and what people value
- 23:24:53 [ht]
- ... Yes money is being made via mobile apps from a store
- 23:25:22 [ht]
- ... If you're an airline, you make your money from the ticket, not from the applet which signals flight delays
- 23:25:39 [ht]
- ... Zero-download is what you want
- 23:26:04 [ht]
- ... If you want to hit 90% of the smartphones that are out there, you currently need order of 5 versions
- 23:26:16 [ht]
- [someone]: Much more than 5
- 23:26:30 [ht]
- [someone else]: Same as with browsers
- 23:26:46 [ht]
- NoahM: I don't think that's accurate -- android differs from iPhone much more
- 23:26:57 [ht]
- ... Cross platform is going to be very variable
- 23:27:01 [mauro]
- s/[someone]/Glazou
- 23:27:19 [mauro]
- s/[someone else]/MarcosC/
- 23:27:24 [JonathanJ]
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- 23:27:32 [ht]
- Glazou: I wanted to hear this browser+offline storage, you can reproduce iTunes
- 23:27:51 [ht]
- ... that will allow us to kill this [AppStore?] model -- let's do it
- 23:28:15 [IanJ]
- TBL: What's different between widgets and web apps - question of trust.
- 23:28:17 [ht]
- Timbl: The difference is, as ArunR said, the way users manage it -- how it's loaded and stored
- 23:28:23 [glazou]
- s/browser+offline storage/browser+offline/+localStorage+deviceAPI
- 23:28:24 [IanJ]
- ...I tend to trust the things in my cache
- 23:28:52 [glazou]
- s/browser+offline storage/browser+offline+localStorage+deviceAPI
- 23:28:55 [ht]
- Timbl: There used to be a way to bookmark pages for offline browsing
- 23:29:10 [ht]
- ... controlling what's costing local resource is important
- 23:29:13 [JonathanJ]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 23:29:13 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html JonathanJ
- 23:29:23 [ht]
- Timbl: Maybe we should go back to look at micropayments again
- 23:29:39 [ht]
- ... it is very frustrating to have to talk to the ISP at every airport
- 23:29:52 [ht]
- ... Skype now brokers that for me, and I'll pay more for that
- 23:30:29 [Judy]
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- 23:30:30 [ht]
- Chaals: Who has made a transaction of more than 10USD [everyone]
- 23:30:59 [ht]
- ... Anyone made a single self-contained payment of less than .50USD [almost no-one]
- 23:31:11 [glazou]
- tantek, the key here is localStorage
- 23:31:17 [ht]
- ... How many people spend less than 3USD/day
- 23:31:51 [ht]
- DanAppelquist: Vodafone is commited heavily to Widgets, and we're getting very positive feedback from developers
- 23:32:07 [ht]
- ... not just monetization, but also ease of development, route to market, etc.
- 23:33:02 [ht]
- LarryMasinter: Thinking about the difference -- what is the effect of bringing into Widgets all the error-recovery logic from HTML 5
- 23:33:18 [ht]
- ... It's not helping the security model to do this
- 23:33:39 [rkuntsch]
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- 23:33:56 [ht]
- [back and forth about the generality of Widgets as packaging]
- 23:34:15 [ht]
- MarcosE: We use error handling as a means to extensibility
- 23:34:30 [ht]
- ArunR: In theory the Widget package will run on any runtime
- 23:34:32 [IanJ]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 23:34:32 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
- 23:34:47 [noahm]
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- 23:35:04 [DKA]
- That URI for the €1M widget developer give-away is: http://widget.developer.vodafone.com/appstar
- 23:35:05 [ht]
- ... but in practice we may want different runtimes for the web browser or the mobile device
- 23:35:27 [ht]
- ... The cool thing is that they all get developed using the Web stack
- 23:35:42 [ht]
- Chaals: I want to question the assumption that the security model is different
- 23:36:04 [mgylling]
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- 23:36:08 [ht]
- ... If you trust Widgets from a particular provider, you may use a different security model
- 23:36:18 [ht]
- ... Same thing wrt apps from trusted providers
- 23:36:38 [ht]
- ... In either case you make your decision about trust based on the provider
- 23:36:51 [ht]
- ArunR: Respectfully disagree
- 23:37:03 [ht]
- ... You're connecting the trust model and the security model
- 23:37:08 [ht]
- Chaals: Yes
- 23:37:18 [ht]
- [applause]
- 23:37:23 [DanC]
- (I think the security models are different. I haven't studied it closely, but... for example, the security implications of following <img src=""> links in HTML email and normal web browsing are different)
- 23:37:27 [cardona507]
- arun works for who?
- 23:37:33 [DanC]
- mozilla
- 23:37:44 [ht]
- RalphS: Adjourned until 1600
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- rrsagent, make minutes
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- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html ht
- 23:38:40 [Zakim]
- -MeetingRoom
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- -shadi
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- +apis-db-stuff
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- scribenick: Karen
- 00:04:37 [howard]
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- 00:04:39 [Zakim]
- -apis-db-stuff
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- Session 6: Future of the Social Web
- 00:05:04 [Steven]
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- 00:05:09 [Karen]
- Moderator: Daniel Appelquist, Vodafone
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- +apis-db-stuff
- 00:05:27 [Steven]
- rrsagent, make minutes
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- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html Steven
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- Speakers: ren> Moderator: Daniel Appelquist, Vodafone
- 00:06:12 [Karen]
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- [19:05] <Zakim> +apis-db-stuff
- 00:06:12 [Karen]
- [19:05] <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
- 00:06:12 [Karen]
- [19:05] <RRSA
- 00:06:22 [timeless]
- [ wine drawing ]
- 00:06:39 [Karen]
- Topic: Future of the Social Web
- 00:06:55 [Karen]
- Dan: Hi Everyone
- 00:06:59 [Karen]
- Welcome back from the break
- 00:07:07 [timbl]
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- 00:07:07 [Karen]
- ...I work for Vodafone
- 00:07:13 [mac]
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- 00:07:14 [Karen]
- ...here to present panel on Social WEb
- 00:07:18 [maraki]
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- 00:07:19 [annevk]
- annevk has joined #tpac
- 00:07:26 [Karen]
- ...when I come before you, you are used to hearing about widgets and mobile web
- 00:07:27 [mac]
- mac has joined #tpac
- 00:07:32 [Karen]
- ...and how cool that is
- 00:07:37 [Karen]
- ...But I work on other stuff
- 00:07:47 [Karen]
- ...Social networking is a topic I have picked up over last couple of years
- 00:07:52 [Karen]
- ...Of intense interest to me
- 00:07:56 [Karen]
- ...part of the future of communication
- 00:08:11 [Karen]
- ...I use this phrase internally to make sure people understand why they should be interested in social networking
- 00:08:25 [Karen]
- ...how people communicate in and through social channels in structured ways
- 00:08:30 [brutzman]
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- 00:08:33 [ArtB]
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- 00:08:34 [Karen]
- ...New ways that were hard to imagine a few years ago
- 00:08:48 [zarella__]
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- 00:08:49 [Karen]
- ...Like to introduce our guest speaker David Recordon from FaceBook
- 00:08:54 [Karen]
- ...And Adam Boyet form Boeing
- 00:08:59 [Karen]
- ...then discussion
- 00:09:05 [Karen]
- Adam: Switched the batting order
- 00:09:06 [timeless]
- s/form/from/
- 00:09:12 [jun]
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- 00:09:22 [Karen]
- ...I'd like to share what we have been doing with social web inside of Boeing
- 00:09:25 [Karen]
- ...we're a huge company
- 00:09:37 [Karen]
- ...research and design facilities around the world
- 00:09:51 [Karen]
- ...but social web not just for big companies; value for small companies, too
- 00:10:03 [Karen]
- ...Sometimes as technologists, we look at tech perspective
- 00:10:07 [Zakim]
- +Salon_1
- 00:10:13 [Karen]
- ...but we're also looking at it from employee's perspective
- 00:10:22 [Karen]
- ...Think about discoverability
- 00:10:26 [tlr]
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- 00:10:28 [Karen]
- ...how to improve across company
- 00:10:36 [noahm]
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- 00:10:37 [Karen]
- ...Reusability rather than start over
- 00:10:51 [Karen]
- ...Redundancy: could be similar groups working on same technologies
- 00:11:01 [Karen]
- ...somebody on air frames and satellites
- 00:11:06 [Karen]
- ...both trying to get moisture out
- 00:11:06 [arun]
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- 00:11:17 [Zakim]
- +Ralph
- 00:11:22 [Karen]
- ...Visibilty: related to redundancy but sprinkle security in there
- 00:11:34 [Karen]
- ...Security adds dynamicness"
- 00:11:44 [Zakim]
- -MeetingRoom
- 00:11:52 [Karen]
- ...One of ways we have addressed is by introducing patterns from social web inside of Boeing
- 00:11:53 [mmani]
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- 00:11:55 [Zakim]
- -apis-db-stuff
- 00:12:02 [Karen]
- ...inSite is where Boeing employees can create an identity
- 00:12:02 [plh]
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- 00:12:05 [Zakim]
- +Salon_1
- 00:12:13 [Karen]
- ...opt in and out, share photos, resumes, what they choose
- 00:12:22 [Karen]
- ...They can help each other out, ask questions, search for people
- 00:12:32 [Karen]
- ...Supposed I want to find a structural analysis person
- 00:12:39 [Daniel-Park]
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- 00:12:41 [Karen]
- ...And expert who worked on this particular air frame
- 00:12:47 [Karen]
- ...Maybe help to peer review something
- 00:12:54 [Karen]
- ...inSite allows people to publish their thoughts
- 00:13:00 [Karen]
- ...Very low entry barrier for that
- 00:13:00 [Zakim]
- -Ralph
- 00:13:04 [raman]
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- 00:13:08 [Karen]
- ...You an share information; links, white paper, PPT, video
- 00:13:11 [Karen]
- ...Can share easily
- 00:13:13 [Roger]
- msg AnnB asks if you could please send me these slides?
- 00:13:16 [Karen]
- ...You can create groups
- 00:13:23 [Zakim]
- +Ralph
- 00:13:25 [Karen]
- ...These groups find each other and can collaborate
- 00:13:35 [tantek]
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- 00:13:41 [Zakim]
- -MeetingRoom
- 00:13:44 [Karen]
- ...Then you have a place where experts can collaborate more effectively and securely
- 00:13:49 [Zakim]
- -Ralph
- 00:13:50 [Karen]
- ...Can secure only to the group...
- 00:14:01 [Karen]
- ...We make it easy; declaratively tag that
- 00:14:08 [Karen]
- ...balance between public and secure content
- 00:14:15 [Karen]
- ...raise awareness, find that serendipitous person
- 00:14:16 [Zakim]
- W3C_TP(*)11:30AM has ended
- 00:14:17 [Zakim]
- Attendees were MeetingRoom, Ralph, +46.7.06.02.aaaa, +1.408.644.aabb, shadi, wiecha, Lalana, apis-db-stuff
- 00:14:25 [Karen]
- ...75% of it is available on your Blackberry device
- 00:14:29 [Zakim]
- W3C_TP(*)11:30AM has now started
- 00:14:30 [Zakim]
- +Salon_1
- 00:14:37 [Karen]
- ...You can also do on your iPhone, although we don't support
- 00:14:43 [Karen]
- ...Goal to get the workforce connect
- 00:14:46 [Zakim]
- -Salon_1
- 00:14:55 [Karen]
- ...The approach we took was looking at social patterns from the web
- 00:15:08 [Karen]
- ...Content aggregation, open culture, patterns around Q&A, recommending
- 00:15:14 [Karen]
- ...Looked at patterns from service providers
- 00:15:23 [Karen]
- ...We looked at how to use this pattern to add value to the company
- 00:15:31 [Karen]
- ...This is approach we took with inSite
- 00:15:36 [Karen]
- ...So how it was built; all Java based
- 00:15:41 [Karen]
- ...Use open source frameworks
- 00:15:49 [Karen]
- ...We use Oracle, we have an enterprise license
- 00:15:54 [Karen]
- ...You can see functional componenets
- 00:15:58 [Karen]
- ...Share and ask it
- 00:16:08 [Karen]
- ...On everybody's browser, click to ask question
- 00:16:09 [Zakim]
- +Salon_1
- 00:16:12 [timeless]
- s/Share/Share It!/
- 00:16:14 [Karen]
- ...It searches previously asked questions
- 00:16:17 [timeless]
- s/ask it/Ask It!/
- 00:16:20 [Karen]
- ...and go ahead and ask question
- 00:16:30 [Karen]
- ...to people who may be experts on topic
- 00:16:36 [Karen]
- ...Get to people you may not know exist
- 00:16:38 [Zakim]
- +Ralph
- 00:16:45 [Karen]
- ...Couldn't find him any other way without social patterns
- 00:16:51 [Karen]
- ...Boos, tagging, etc.
- 00:16:57 [Karen]
- ...Profile a huge part of that
- 00:17:01 [Karen]
- ...Search is ubiquitous
- 00:17:02 [Zakim]
- -Ralph
- 00:17:04 [timeless]
- s/Boos/Bookmarks/
- 00:17:13 [Karen]
- ...We're straddling line between secure and public content
- 00:17:17 [Karen]
- ...Share where possible
- 00:17:23 [Karen]
- ...but not always with all technical info
- 00:17:30 [Karen]
- ...Public info shows up in enterprise search clients
- 00:17:36 [Karen]
- ...But also use cases that require security
- 00:17:39 [Karen]
- ...From the outset
- 00:17:46 [Karen]
- ...We wanted an open culture for data
- 00:17:56 [Karen]
- ...Implement so you can get into inSite from outside
- 00:18:06 [Karen]
- ...Through REST interface
- 00:18:15 [Karen]
- ...We can render in other applications
- 00:18:19 [timeless]
- [ SIOC, FOAF, RSS, REST, SOAP ]
- 00:18:20 [Karen]
- ...Can embed in blog or wiki
- 00:18:21 [AxelPolleres]
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- 00:18:30 [Karen]
- ...Try to bring patterns, concepts from Internet to gain efficiencies
- 00:18:43 [Karen]
- ...Trying to use social web to work together more efficiently
- 00:18:47 [Karen]
- ...collaborate better
- 00:18:53 [timeless]
- [ Slide title: What does this mean? ]
- 00:18:56 [Karen]
- ...connect to each other; see if there are synergies in activities
- 00:19:08 [Karen]
- ...Try to use for people to find solutions to things that have already been solved
- 00:19:17 [Karen]
- ...Find solutions before they start a new project, or find a lesson learned
- 00:19:23 [Karen]
- ...Reduce duplication when starting something new
- 00:19:32 [timeless]
- [ Slide title: Life is good right? .... not yet ... ]
- 00:19:34 [Karen]
- ...So use social web for those activities
- 00:19:41 [Karen]
- ...We have about 30K signed up
- 00:19:46 [Karen]
- ...log in daily basis
- 00:19:55 [Karen]
- ...People started to look at profiles
- 00:20:05 [Karen]
- ...but had to recreate on the blog, wikis, etc.
- 00:20:12 [Karen]
- ...One of things we noticed
- 00:20:24 [Karen]
- ...Profiles in other systems only had a fragment of the inSite profile
- 00:20:40 [Karen]
- ...So 30K people, HR manage data and user provider data in one place witin inSite
- 00:20:45 [Karen]
- ...So we wanted to save them time
- 00:20:49 [jeanne]
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- 00:20:52 [Karen]
- ...Integrate to the wiki to get data out of inSite
- 00:20:58 [Karen]
- ...integrate with blog, portal
- 00:21:04 [Karen]
- ...Would be great to have some social web standard
- 00:21:12 [Karen]
- ...to synchronize profile information between systems
- 00:21:13 [tantek]
- "Example: Missing Profile Standards" <-- wait, didn't previous slide say they implemented FOAF?
- 00:21:18 [Karen]
- ...and do that within Boeing and with suppliers, too
- 00:21:25 [Karen]
- ...link these disparate systems together
- 00:21:29 [timeless]
- [ Slide title: Benefits to the enterprise ]
- 00:21:31 [Karen]
- ...So maybe if we had some social web standards
- 00:21:34 [Karen]
- ...that would reduce time
- 00:21:38 [Karen]
- ...and focus on core business
- 00:21:50 [Karen]
- ...come up with a better jet fuel, more efficient airplane
- 00:22:00 [Karen]
- ...Apply social patterns and hope to see more innovation
- 00:22:10 [Karen]
- ...break down walled gardens; find solutions faster
- 00:22:16 [timeless]
- [ Slideshow ends ]
- 00:22:22 [timeless]
- [ applause ]
- 00:22:25 [Marcos]
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- 00:22:50 [marie]
- Fabien's slides: http://www.slideshare.net/fabien_gandon/semantics-in-social-networks
- 00:22:52 [Karen]
- Speaker: Fabien Gandon
- 00:22:57 [Karen]
- ...from INRIA
- 00:22:57 [mth]
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- 00:23:02 [Karen]
- ...This talk is twice biased
- 00:23:09 [Karen]
- ...I have been asked to test an academic perspective
- 00:23:14 [Karen]
- ...and also look at SemWeb
- 00:23:36 [Karen]
- ...First one is to look at is time-evolving
- 00:23:47 [Karen]
- ...Growing amount of info exceeds our attention span
- 00:23:56 [Karen]
- ...First problem using SemWeb is need for memes to have focus
- 00:24:02 [Karen]
- ...In social network analysis
- 00:24:03 [holstege2]
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- 00:24:07 [Karen]
- ...sociaograms and analysis
- 00:24:10 [Karen]
- ...could help us focus
- 00:24:31 [Karen]
- ...We could use social applications to filter and focus things
- 00:24:39 [Karen]
- ...Classic social network analysis works on graphs
- 00:24:46 [Karen]
- ...don't take into account types of links, profiles
- 00:24:51 [TabAtkins]
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- 00:24:55 [Karen]
- ...Links and profiles change and are important
- 00:25:00 [Karen]
- ...SemWeb can help
- 00:25:06 [Karen]
- ...We have social network graphs
- 00:25:11 [Karen]
- ..and we have SemWeb graphs
- 00:25:21 [Karen]
- ...In social network analysis we would calculate in degree
- 00:25:25 [Karen]
- ...add new types
- 00:25:30 [Karen]
- ...since you are man also a person
- 00:25:39 [Karen]
- ...Bring both things, bridge both graphs together
- 00:25:45 [Karen]
- ...First bias is academy
- 00:25:47 [Karen]
- ...Related work
- 00:25:51 [Karen]
- ...Some of contributions
- 00:25:56 [Karen]
- ...propogating trust
- 00:26:02 [Karen]
- ...using SN and SemWeb
- 00:26:10 [Karen]
- ...Show degree still follows power
- 00:26:20 [Steven]
- a/propo/propa/
- 00:26:20 [Karen]
- ...apply classic analysis directly on social network with RDF
- 00:26:23 [Karen]
- ...merging identities
- 00:26:29 [Karen]
- ..extending tools to query with SPARQL
- 00:26:33 [Karen]
- ...From representation POV
- 00:26:36 [Steven]
- s/power/power law/
- 00:26:40 [Karen]
- ...schemas exist like FOAF to describe persons
- 00:26:50 [Karen]
- ...like families, colleagues, and so on
- 00:26:55 [fhirscht]
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- 00:26:58 [Karen]
- ...Give a 'toy' example of what can be don
- 00:27:01 [Karen]
- s/done
- 00:27:05 [IanJ]
- s/don/done
- 00:27:12 [Karen]
- ...Consider Guilllaume
- 00:27:16 [Karen]
- ...from a family point of view
- 00:27:23 [Karen]
- ...analyze him only from family POV
- 00:27:27 [Karen]
- ...I don't care how you calculate
- 00:27:41 [Karen]
- ...but use schemas that define family and tell me what is the degree of Guillaume
- 00:27:46 [Karen]
- ...That's what we can do merging graphs
- 00:27:53 [Karen]
- ...Centrality as I mentioned before
- 00:28:07 [Karen]
- ...Second place is to work on SPARQL and to extend it
- 00:28:10 [Karen]
- ...Describe it
- 00:28:15 [Karen]
- ...Pass as first citizen
- 00:28:26 [timeless]
- s/Guilllaume/Guillaume/
- 00:28:31 [Karen]
- ...query here, interest in links between people, only colleagues such as manager of second person
- 00:28:37 [Karen]
- ...test with real case
- 00:28:47 [Karen]
- ...worked with ipernity.com
- 00:28:51 [Karen]
- ...People type the link
- 00:28:58 [Karen]
- ...make difference between contacts
- 00:29:02 [Karen]
- ...We have their full database
- 00:29:08 [Karen]
- ...It's 60K; small
- 00:29:11 [Karen]
- ...but all in RDF
- 00:29:14 [Karen]
- ...We ran analysis
- 00:29:20 [Karen]
- ...show when you try to use this usual operator
- 00:29:24 [Karen]
- ...to find most important actor
- 00:29:29 [Karen]
- ...Depending upon the type
- 00:29:39 [Karen]
- ...You will find different actor depending upon the actor
- 00:29:41 [IanJ]
- Fabien: the "most important actor" depends on type information you choose
- 00:29:50 [Karen]
- ...From prof POV, if not able to type not able to see
- 00:30:00 [Karen]
- ...What we do is provide schemas to reinject
- 00:30:11 [Karen]
- ...Propose schema to put back result of analysis
- 00:30:22 [SteveH]
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- 00:30:23 [Karen]
- ...resuse it for incremental analysis
- 00:30:28 [Karen]
- ...Second problem I would like to introduce
- 00:30:31 [Karen]
- ...Social data
- 00:30:38 [Karen]
- ...usually characterized using tagging
- 00:30:42 [Karen]
- ...Folksonomies
- 00:30:53 [Karen]
- ...One problem only so much to do with Folksonomies
- 00:30:56 [Karen]
- ...Related work
- 00:31:01 [Karen]
- ...Some academic propositions
- 00:31:09 [Karen]
- ...low tagging tags themselves
- 00:31:15 [Karen]
- ...Semiautomatic structuring
- 00:31:23 [mgylling]
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- 00:31:25 [Karen]
- ...Community inclusion to derive structure on the tags
- 00:31:33 [Karen]
- ...Diving is included in the community of tag water sport
- 00:31:40 [Karen]
- ...start structuring the folksonomy with that
- 00:31:44 [Karen]
- ...Use existing lexicons
- 00:31:47 [Karen]
- ...Some proposal from ?
- 00:32:02 [Karen]
- ...Provide schemas to exchange tags and folksonomies
- 00:32:03 [rigo]
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- 00:32:07 [Karen]
- ...SIOC is one
- 00:32:18 [Karen]
- ...Allows you to represent cloud of tags
- 00:32:24 [Karen]
- ...Can use SKOS from W3C also
- 00:32:33 [Karen]
- ...MOAT can be used to disembiguate the tag
- 00:32:44 [Karen]
- ...in this context used to refer to the fruit and not the company
- 00:32:51 [Karen]
- ...VoCamps; encourage you to look
- 00:33:00 [Karen]
- ...Working on schema to work on nametags
- 00:33:04 [Karen]
- ...was discussed in a VoCamp
- 00:33:12 [Karen]
- ...Give you another example of a different approach
- 00:33:18 [Karen]
- ...To get users to use tags
- 00:33:30 [Karen]
- ...look at ways to provide them tools
- 00:33:33 [Karen]
- ...and capture knowledge
- 00:33:42 [Karen]
- ...work with people using delici.us
- 00:33:49 [Karen]
- ...Look at bookmarks; when they search
- 00:33:55 [Karen]
- ...can use this widget on the left
- 00:34:13 [Karen]
- ...As the user reorganizes the results
- 00:34:25 [Karen]
- ...We capture everything
- 00:34:33 [Karen]
- ...while they are searching and filtering
- 00:34:44 [Karen]
- ...Last problem I want to mention
- 00:34:56 [Judy]
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- 00:34:56 [Karen]
- ...Is introduction of social web inside a firewall
- 00:35:00 [Karen]
- ...A cultural problem
- 00:35:10 [Karen]
- ...and a psychological challenge
- 00:35:12 [Karen]
- ...Inside companies
- 00:35:22 [Karen]
- ...social webs may be incompatable with business processes
- 00:35:28 [Karen]
- ...be careful not to create a war
- 00:35:38 [Karen]
- ...isicil.inria.fr
- 00:35:58 [Karen]
- ...this uses both internal and external applications; crosses boundaries
- 00:36:02 [Karen]
- ...We injected RDF
- 00:36:07 [Karen]
- ...when they interact with application
- 00:36:12 [Karen]
- ...internal or external
- 00:36:20 [Karen]
- ...we can still capture the RDF and capture the functionality
- 00:36:24 [Karen]
- ...A number of contributions
- 00:36:28 [Karen]
- ...Security and access control
- 00:36:39 [Karen]
- ...Trust based service composition
- 00:36:48 [Karen]
- ...Policy aware content reuse
- 00:37:03 [Karen]
- ...Systems link to open data to get info about you and people you interact with
- 00:37:10 [Karen]
- ...Many other topics could be mentioned here
- 00:37:15 [Karen]
- ...Some working on at camps
- 00:37:25 [Karen]
- ...Social journalism...[reads from list]
- 00:37:41 [Karen]
- ...One of the things interesting is look at stack of standards built on SemWeb
- 00:37:50 [Karen]
- ...that could provide basis for extending social networks
- 00:37:54 [Bryan_Sullivan]
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- 00:38:01 [Karen]
- ...Another aspect that Tim pointed out yesterday
- 00:38:09 [Karen]
- ...This could benefit from infrastructure
- 00:38:21 [Karen]
- ...from the deployment architecture provided from linked open data
- 00:38:26 [Karen]
- ...Using typed networks
- 00:38:32 [Karen]
- ...and parameterized operators
- 00:38:43 [Karen]
- ...allow us to be more precise
- 00:38:54 [Karen]
- ...Difficulty is problem of fragmented identities
- 00:38:58 [Karen]
- ...SemWeb has pros and cons
- 00:39:06 [Karen]
- ...Sometimes you want profiles to be merged
- 00:39:08 [Karen]
- ...sometimes not
- 00:39:16 [Karen]
- [crowd laughs at photos]
- 00:39:26 [Karen]
- ...You want to differentiate
- 00:39:32 [Karen]
- ...Still an open issue
- 00:39:41 [Karen]
- ...Declarative query language
- 00:39:49 [Karen]
- ...Time is still forgotten
- 00:39:51 [Steven]
- Ivan Herman as Hagrid
- 00:39:54 [Karen]
- ...Setting chronology of events
- 00:40:03 [Karen]
- ...analyzing evolution of trends
- 00:40:14 [Karen]
- ...I would love to have an easy way on FaceBook
- 00:40:18 [Karen]
- ...to say I'm a friend with this person
- 00:40:32 [Karen]
- ...but she does not have access to what I have said in the last year, but no access to my past
- 00:40:37 [Karen]
- ...Scaling is a challenge
- 00:40:46 [Karen]
- ...We are far from the size of network you are handling
- 00:40:50 [Karen]
- ...Secuirty, semiotics
- 00:40:59 [Karen]
- ...many families exist
- 00:41:05 [Karen]
- ...Mobile, hyperamnesia
- 00:41:09 [Karen]
- ...If you want to know more
- 00:41:21 [timeless]
- [ applause ]
- 00:41:27 [timeless]
- s/Secuirty/Security/
- 00:41:34 [Karen]
- Speaker: David Recordon, FaceBook
- 00:41:58 [Karen]
- Thank you for invitation to speak today
- 00:42:04 [Karen]
- ...I joined FB three months agao
- 00:42:05 [Karen]
- s/ago
- 00:42:11 [Karen]
- ...Manage open source and standards initiatives
- 00:42:17 [Karen]
- ...COmpany has about 20 open source projects
- 00:42:21 [Karen]
- ...We react with developers
- 00:42:30 [Karen]
- ...I'm looking at how we support developers, do that better
- 00:42:36 [Karen]
- ...Make world better, more connect
- 00:42:39 [Karen]
- s/connected
- 00:42:42 [Karen]
- ...Look at that mission
- 00:42:46 [Karen]
- ...do it with standards
- 00:42:55 [Karen]
- ...We are happy to do that with any tech that has broad adoption
- 00:43:05 [Karen]
- ...My background is about OAUTH, Open ID
- 00:43:14 [Karen]
- ...got into that a few years ago before term, Social Web
- 00:43:24 [Karen]
- ...pioneer that instead of "versioning" terms
- 00:43:27 [IanJ]
- Social Web 2.0!!!
- 00:43:34 [FabGandon]
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- 00:43:37 [silvia]
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- 00:43:39 [Karen]
- ...How do we create social services that are interoperabile
- 00:43:47 [Karen]
- ..Here is a Tim O'Reilly quote that sticks with me
- 00:43:53 [Steven]
- Fabien's slides: http://www.slideshare.net/fabien_gandon/semantics-in-social-networks\
- 00:44:05 [Karen]
- ...Open data is increasingly important as services move online."
- 00:44:13 [Karen]
- ...No longer just about open source to run mail applicatoin
- 00:44:19 [Karen]
- ...but data behind is more important
- 00:44:20 [timeless]
- s/applicatoin/application/
- 00:44:28 [Karen]
- ...Not nec about how to have access to entire code base
- 00:44:40 [Karen]
- ...Always talking about access to data and how to share it in other places
- 00:44:43 [Karen]
- ...Trend to open
- 00:44:51 [Karen]
- ...Open Source, Open Standards, Open APIs,
- 00:44:55 [Karen]
- ...Have access to data
- 00:44:59 [Karen]
- s/nec/necessarily
- 00:45:05 [Karen]
- ...This is really important
- 00:45:13 [Karen]
- ...When I look at Open ID, OAUTH,
- 00:45:18 [Karen]
- ...those communities I'm involved with
- 00:45:27 [Karen]
- ...I see four characteristics to look at and understand
- 00:45:32 [Karen]
- ...why they are successful
- 00:45:36 [Karen]
- ...First is about community
- 00:45:47 [Karen]
- ...individuals from companies, etc.
- 00:45:51 [Karen]
- ...and collaboration
- 00:45:56 [Karen]
- ...not just open source and for profit
- 00:46:04 [Karen]
- ...collaboration with these diverse communities
- 00:46:11 [Karen]
- ...Both are free to participate and implement
- 00:46:12 [marie]
- (/me notes that we'll have slides after this prez)
- 00:46:14 [Karen]
- ...Low barriers to entry
- 00:46:18 [Karen]
- ...Go and step in
- 00:46:26 [Karen]
- ...Eran Hammer-Lahav
- 00:46:30 [Karen]
- ...is a good example
- 00:46:45 [Karen]
- ...Got involved six to nine months later, have smart opinions and get involved as editor of spec
- 00:46:53 [Karen]
- ...Open Source is another aspect
- 00:46:59 [Karen]
- ...having in many different languages
- 00:47:05 [Karen]
- ...How to use microformats, etc.
- 00:47:10 [Karen]
- ...Stems from having large community
- 00:47:12 [Karen]
- ...And then adoption
- 00:47:16 [Karen]
- ...seeing every year
- 00:47:20 [Karen]
- ...get modeled like a half life
- 00:47:34 [Karen]
- ...Hubub being supported in just a few months
- 00:47:41 [Karen]
- ...Go back to community participation again
- 00:47:51 [Karen]
- ...How many people are subscribed to all these different mailing lists?
- 00:48:01 [silvia1]
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- 00:48:07 [Karen]
- ...What if people had to pay to subscribe to all these lists to provide feedback
- 00:48:12 [Karen]
- ...Really valuable feedback
- 00:48:26 [Karen]
- ...Wisdom from all sorts of people, individuals to large corporations
- 00:48:37 [Karen]
- ...Again, so what do they need to be successful?
- 00:48:52 [Karen]
- ...Mentors, best practices, freedom to participate, infrastructure and tools
- 00:49:00 [Karen]
- ...IP, governance and scope, light weight
- 00:49:06 [Karen]
- ...much more from open source model
- 00:49:10 [Karen]
- ...efforts not large corporations
- 00:49:12 [Karen]
- ...not competing
- 00:49:23 [Karen]
- ...but all sorts of people who see it values the entire ecosystem
- 00:49:33 [Karen]
- ...Policies around how to resolve conflicts not necessarily needed
- 00:49:40 [Karen]
- ...once again give my own view of ad hoc approach
- 00:49:50 [Karen]
- ...adhoc, OASIS, IETF and W3C
- 00:50:00 [Karen]
- ...How do you have these resources for other people?
- 00:50:06 [Karen]
- ...I'm for the adhoc approach
- 00:50:13 [Karen]
- ...OASIS and W3C is part of cost
- 00:50:24 [Karen]
- ...Go in and participate in OASIS or W3C group is quite prohibitive
- 00:50:29 [Karen]
- ...for those you want to contribute
- 00:50:35 [Karen]
- ...IPR is in eye of beholder
- 00:50:40 [Karen]
- ...Look for a clean outcome
- 00:50:45 [Karen]
- ...Be friendly to individuals and companies
- 00:50:48 [Karen]
- ...Also governance and scope
- 00:50:58 [Karen]
- ...Look at in terms of not making all the decisions up front
- 00:51:07 [Karen]
- ...not consider outside of 10 things up front
- 00:51:11 [Karen]
- ...may have learned some lessons
- 00:51:17 [Karen]
- ...Shift to Open Web Foundation
- 00:51:21 [Karen]
- ...We created a year ago
- 00:51:33 [Karen]
- ...For those who are creating specifications outside of standards bodies
- 00:51:46 [Karen]
- ...How to create shared infrastructure and shared tools
- 00:51:57 [Karen]
- ...Model of providing tools for the communities working where they are
- 00:52:01 [Karen]
- ...May be on a mailing list
- 00:52:13 [Karen]
- ...or for W3C to take advantage of the legal work we have done and offer to your own WGs
- 00:52:18 [Karen]
- ...Take advantage of that
- 00:52:28 [Karen]
- ...and not replace standards bodies that have an important role
- 00:52:35 [Karen]
- ...Open Web Foundation Agreement
- 00:52:45 [Karen]
- ...Started with four tenets
- 00:52:55 [Karen]
- ...Legal document understandable by non-lawyers
- 00:53:00 [Karen]
- ...Allow derivative works
- 00:53:07 [Karen]
- ...Be written simply
- 00:53:11 [IanJ]
- -> http://groups.google.com/group/open-web-legal/web/open-web-foundation---committee-draft-2 Open Web Foundation Agreement - Committee Draft 2
- 00:53:20 [Karen]
- ...How to take a specification and move into a standards body
- 00:53:34 [Karen]
- ...think from the beginning; freely implementable specifications
- 00:53:39 [Karen]
- ...I have pulled out four things
- 00:53:45 [Karen]
- ...Copyright, simple attribution
- 00:53:50 [Karen]
- ...Use Creative Commons
- 00:53:55 [Karen]
- ...take document and evolve it
- 00:54:04 [Karen]
- ...A patent non-assert
- 00:54:11 [Karen]
- ...We felt this was really important
- 00:54:11 [IanJ]
- David: Patent non-assert that allows you to carry patent rights to derivative works.
- 00:54:19 [Karen]
- ...Non Asser Termination
- 00:54:23 [Karen]
- ...makes it hard to litigate
- 00:54:25 [timeless]
- s/Asser/Assert/
- 00:54:32 [Karen]
- ...ensure specs licensed remain free
- 00:54:38 [Karen]
- ...and transition into a standards body
- 00:54:43 [Karen]
- ...Model that you operate under
- 00:54:59 [Karen]
- ...Means that someone creating specification licensed this way, does not have to go back to all the contributors
- 00:55:02 [timeless]
- s/you/you [W3C]/
- 00:55:05 [Karen]
- ...Was set up from the beginning to do that
- 00:55:10 [Karen]
- ...Glossing over a few topics
- 00:55:18 [Karen]
- ...Happy to say more in discussion and Q&A
- 00:55:25 [Karen]
- ...Web standards that I'm paying attention to
- 00:55:32 [Karen]
- ...HTML5 are extremely interesting
- 00:55:42 [dom]
- s/are/is/
- 00:55:43 [Karen]
- ...Not a social web standard by itself, but what innovation it will enable
- 00:55:51 [Claes]
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- 00:55:52 [Karen]
- [reads list from slide]
- 00:56:03 [Karen]
- ...Combine together and create interoperable web services
- 00:56:08 [Karen]
- ...Have been called the open stack
- 00:56:14 [Karen]
- ...How to interact with people they know
- 00:56:17 [timeless]
- s/the open stack/"the open stack"/
- 00:56:19 [Karen]
- ...Another piece is getting major adoption
- 00:56:32 [Karen]
- ...Many people have not worked inside a standards body
- 00:56:37 [Karen]
- ...Many occur ad hoc
- 00:56:43 [Karen]
- ...See adoption from non-tech companies
- 00:56:49 [Karen]
- ...Looking at role of standards body
- 00:56:54 [Karen]
- ...and role that is valuable to these communities
- 00:57:00 [Karen]
- ...Continuing to gloss at high level
- 00:57:07 [Karen]
- ...Talk about FaceBook, especially the scale
- 00:57:11 [Karen]
- ...which blows me away
- 00:57:15 [Karen]
- ...and how we are evolving
- 00:57:25 [Karen]
- ...8 billion minutes spent on site every day worldwide
- 00:57:35 [Karen]
- ...2 billion pieces of content shared every week
- 00:57:38 [Karen]
- ...all types of content
- 00:57:43 [Karen]
- ...Combination of web browsers, smss
- 00:57:45 [Karen]
- s/sms
- 00:57:56 [Karen]
- ...Over 2 billion photos uploaded each month
- 00:58:12 [gond]
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- 00:58:14 [Karen]
- ...And content is about who's inside the photo, not just what photo is
- 00:58:20 [dbaron]
- 15200 years or so, I think
- 00:58:25 [Karen]
- ...15K FB Connect implementations
- 00:58:29 [Karen]
- ...So scaling challenges
- 00:58:32 [Karen]
- ...THink about privacy
- 00:58:39 [Karen]
- ...not a traditional scaling problem
- 00:58:41 [Ileana]
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- 00:58:42 [Karen]
- ...Have that users data
- 00:58:44 [timeless]
- s/THink/Think/
- 00:58:48 [Karen]
- ...stored on separate server
- 00:58:51 [Karen]
- ...shared by user
- 00:58:57 [Karen]
- ...Each user put on different server
- 00:59:03 [Karen]
- ...not a lot of complication
- 00:59:18 [Karen]
- ...on FB data is interconnected
- 00:59:27 [Karen]
- ...We are pulling data from hundreds of different people.
- 00:59:33 [Karen]
- ...More complex from scaling perspective
- 00:59:39 [Karen]
- ...Choose who you want to share with
- 00:59:47 [Karen]
- ...friends, friend of friends, these five people
- 00:59:52 [Karen]
- ...adds to the scaling challenges
- 01:00:00 [Karen]
- ...Not just pull news feed from my 500 friends
- 01:00:08 [Karen]
- ...look at privacy settings and am I allowed to see it
- 01:00:14 [Karen]
- ...Need to continue to innovate around that
- 01:00:19 [Karen]
- ...We have also looked at social graph
- 01:00:26 [Karen]
- ..People are only one dimension
- 01:00:31 [Karen]
- ...events, photos, documents
- 01:00:36 [Karen]
- ...and I see how the Web evolves also
- 01:00:42 [Karen]
- ...from documents to documents and people
- 01:00:47 [Karen]
- ...We are interested in working on that
- 01:01:00 [Karen]
- ...We have created XMBFL?
- 01:01:05 [Karen]
- ...See my photo or not
- 01:01:06 [timeless]
- [ wiki.developers.facebook.com/index.php/XFBML ]
- 01:01:12 [Karen]
- ...go update across the web
- 01:01:18 [Karen]
- ...how does HTML become social?
- 01:01:24 [Karen]
- ...How do people get represented?
- 01:01:25 [IanJ]
- s/XMBFL/XFBML/
- 01:01:32 [Karen]
- ...How does FaceBook scale worldwide?
- 01:01:37 [IanJ]
- 70% of facebook base outside US
- 01:01:44 [Karen]
- ...Site is in 65 languages, done by users themselves
- 01:01:53 [Karen]
- ...Really community translation
- 01:02:02 [Karen]
- ...We have 20 open source projects
- 01:02:06 [timeless]
- s/FaceBook/Facebook/
- 01:02:07 [Karen]
- ...Next challenges are to scale world wide
- 01:02:11 [timeless]
- s/FaceBook/Facebook/g
- 01:02:13 [Karen]
- ...to give people ability to share
- 01:02:15 [IanJ]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 01:02:15 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
- 01:02:15 [shiki]
- shiki has joined #tpac
- 01:02:17 [Karen]
- ...with whom sharing
- 01:02:20 [Karen]
- ...social identiy
- 01:02:24 [Karen]
- ...verified identity
- 01:02:30 [Karen]
- ...things I know and what I'm connected wtih
- 01:02:41 [Karen]
- ...Looking at HTML and how web represents people
- 01:02:46 [Karen]
- ...An interesting question to talk about
- 01:02:53 [Karen]
- ...Why should FaceBook become a member of W3C
- 01:02:59 [Karen]
- ...things we do related to social, privacy
- 01:03:05 [Karen]
- ...I don't have a clear answer
- 01:03:08 [Karen]
- ...Try to work with you
- 01:03:18 [Karen]
- ...how to make people a real aspect of the web itself?
- 01:03:26 [timeless]
- [ applause ]
- 01:03:29 [Karen]
- Daniel: That's great, thanks, David
- 01:03:44 [Karen]
- ...Maybe one answer to David's question
- 01:03:50 [timeless]
- [ Last Slide Title: Why should Facebook become a W3C member? ]
- 01:03:55 [Karen]
- ...W3C is where different communities of practice
- 01:03:56 [timeless]
- [ slide show ends ]
- 01:03:58 [Karen]
- ...come together
- 01:04:02 [Karen]
- ...share viewpoints
- 01:04:06 [Karen]
- ...and competencies
- 01:04:14 [Karen]
- ...Some nashing of teeth
- 01:04:26 [Karen]
- ...Nice to have David as guest speaker
- 01:04:32 [Karen]
- ...talk about community efforts
- 01:04:39 [Karen]
- ...Also been involved running social web camp
- 01:04:46 [Karen]
- ...brought in people from community to talk about these issues
- 01:04:54 [Karen]
- ...I want to relate a short anecdote
- 01:05:02 [Karen]
- ...how social networks are becoming people's lives
- 01:05:08 [Karen]
- ...I was sitting at a cafe in London
- 01:05:13 [Karen]
- ...two young people were arguing
- 01:05:16 [Karen]
- ...not sure what about
- 01:05:20 [Karen]
- ...maybe football related
- 01:05:23 [Karen]
- [laugh]
- 01:05:35 [Karen]
- ...At one point, one person said, "unfriend"
- 01:05:41 [Karen]
- ...other one said, "unfriend, unfollow"
- 01:05:45 [Karen]
- ...Ok, so questions
- 01:05:50 [Karen]
- ...A quick question for Adam
- 01:06:00 [Karen]
- ...If you were also expanding what you are doing to supplier network
- 01:06:01 [Ileana]
- Ileana has joined #TPAC
- 01:06:07 [Karen]
- ...How does that work, what are your challenges there?
- 01:06:12 [JereK]
- JereK has left #tpac
- 01:06:22 [Karen]
- Adam: Haven't gone down that path yet
- 01:06:34 [Karen]
- ...not including suppliers and customers inside our internal social networking platform
- 01:06:39 [Karen]
- ...On the horizon but not there yet
- 01:07:01 [Karen]
- Ann Bassetti, Boeing: We do have several hundred thousand suppliers and customers that log into our firewall
- 01:07:07 [Karen]
- ...to get to other web sites internally
- 01:07:16 [Karen]
- ...We have been doing that successfully for a decade
- 01:07:27 [Karen]
- ...What Adam is referring to is social interactions through inSite
- 01:07:31 [Karen]
- ...We do a lot of collaboration
- 01:07:35 [Karen]
- ...this would be the next level up
- 01:07:44 [Karen]
- DavidR: Interesting to hear about inSite
- 01:07:51 [Karen]
- ...We have similar things inside of FaceBook
- 01:07:56 [Karen]
- ...how to find people, find tags
- 01:08:13 [Karen]
- AnnB: One of hugest challenges Adam stepped up to is the security restrictions from US gov't
- 01:08:22 [Karen]
- ...if someone releases it can be inadvertant
- 01:08:27 [Karen]
- ...a whole bunch of variables
- 01:08:39 [Karen]
- ...different requirements where we can be fined millions of dollars
- 01:08:49 [Karen]
- ...So he set up some taggings for security
- 01:08:53 [Karen]
- ...all kinds of levels
- 01:09:00 [timeless]
- [ International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) ]
- 01:09:07 [Karen]
- Mike Champion, Microsoft: Adam mentioned that Boeing wants to see standards
- 01:09:20 [Karen]
- ...and FaceBook defines community specifications as being satisfactory
- 01:09:30 [Karen]
- ...So to Adam, do you really need standards, or more specs
- 01:09:34 [Karen]
- Adam: Great question
- 01:09:43 [Karen]
- ...It boils down to can we get vendors to implement them
- 01:09:48 [Karen]
- ...We bring in commercial blog
- 01:10:00 [Karen]
- ...if a standard, we can try to be 800 pound gorilla
- 01:10:01 [Karen]
- ...See this today
- 01:10:13 [Karen]
- ...industry outside is adopting, but not vendors adopting
- 01:10:27 [Karen]
- ...So it may need to be a traditional spec for the vendors to implement
- 01:10:32 [Karen]
- ...may have to be wait and see
- 01:10:48 [Karen]
- Rotan Hanrahan, MobileAware: you are trying to condense info
- 01:10:56 [Karen]
- ...the human being is receiving a huge amount of info
- 01:11:02 [Karen]
- ...I fear information overload for the users
- 01:11:12 [Karen]
- ...Is there a way to filer the social network to a human level
- 01:11:25 [Karen]
- ...My best situation would have plenty of flow, tables and beer mats
- 01:11:37 [Karen]
- DavidR: When you look at FB news feed compared to live fed
- 01:11:40 [Karen]
- s/fed/feed
- 01:11:44 [Karen]
- ...it's algorithmic
- 01:12:00 [Karen]
- ...What content did you see, who commented, what content do you interact with
- 01:12:04 [timeless]
- <http://www.facebook.com/livefeed>
- 01:12:06 [Karen]
- ...versus here is everything you can possibly see
- 01:12:13 [Karen]
- Rigo Wenning, W3C: In Open ID
- 01:12:20 [Karen]
- ...this specification was discussed
- 01:12:26 [Karen]
- ...and whether you align with architectures
- 01:12:36 [Karen]
- ...Regarding what's in it for us with W3C
- 01:12:43 [Karen]
- ...there is more overhead than a web site and a mailing list
- 01:12:50 [Karen]
- ...you see a lot of people; so why are they here
- 01:12:59 [Karen]
- ...You could just have a mailing list and a web site
- 01:13:02 [Karen]
- ...There is more of it
- 01:13:22 [Karen]
- ...Not sure if you here when we discussed privacy, security, internet governance
- 01:13:28 [Karen]
- ...social networks are young
- 01:13:42 [Karen]
- ...there are more things that come along
- 01:13:50 [Karen]
- ...so mailing list and server not enough
- 01:14:18 [Karen]
- DavidR: I didn't mean to say way was to create a spec with a mailing list and web site
- 01:14:27 [Karen]
- ...doesn't guarantee adoption and success
- 01:14:33 [Karen]
- ...interested in the trade-offs
- 01:14:56 [Karen]
- Jeremy Carroll, TopQuadrant: W3C standards have been getting better
- 01:15:17 [Karen]
- ...recent ones have been clearer before they get to recommendation state, have implementations
- 01:15:22 [Karen]
- ...and clear success criteria
- 01:15:31 [Karen]
- ...people who have thought about what it means to interoperate
- 01:15:44 [Karen]
- ...this community has developed expertise on what it means to interoperate
- 01:15:50 [Karen]
- DavidR: Yes, absolutely
- 01:15:59 [Karen]
- ...Yes, coming to W3C offers tools that are needed
- 01:16:05 [Karen]
- ...but also looking at back of napkin math
- 01:16:18 [Karen]
- ...but for OAUTH to be created inside W3C would have cost $20 million
- 01:16:25 [Karen]
- Daniel: Tim, do you want to say something?
- 01:16:34 [Karen]
- TimBL: Insert three quarter hour of standards bodies
- 01:16:38 [Karen]
- ...You talked about two dimensions
- 01:16:43 [Karen]
- ...You called it a meritocracy
- 01:16:49 [Karen]
- ...friends, put together a spec
- 01:16:56 [Karen]
- ...versus an organization with a process
- 01:16:59 [Karen]
- ...W3C then, now
- 01:17:06 [Karen]
- ...After a while
- 01:17:10 [Karen]
- ...one person said stop, wait
- 01:17:17 [Karen]
- ...this is not good enough; we need to know certain things
- 01:17:26 [Karen]
- ...have more solide ground; criteria for making a standard
- 01:17:35 [Karen]
- ...certain level of polity for my company
- 01:17:46 [Karen]
- ...and if you organize a meeting, give us 8 weeks' notice
- 01:17:57 [Karen]
- ...I have to travel, get permission to travel
- 01:18:03 [Karen]
- ...so we created a process document
- 01:18:19 [Karen]
- ...I suggest you talk to people about the history, especially Carl Cargill (Adobe)
- 01:18:26 [Karen]
- ...Companies came to me to put consortium together
- 01:18:33 [Karen]
- ...Web was a fast-moving field
- 01:18:41 [Karen]
- ...They felt it was worth their putting money into it
- 01:18:59 [Karen]
- ...If you want to put money into it, the ROI; $20K investment
- 01:19:05 [Karen]
- ...compare to number of minutes
- 01:19:13 [Karen]
- ...what people on average spend on FaceBook
- 01:19:22 [Karen]
- ...if they spend, it would cover $20K
- 01:19:30 [Karen]
- David: Yes, I saw this with Open ID
- 01:19:39 [Karen]
- ...yes, from the wild west approach to more of process
- 01:19:42 [Karen]
- ...Not one approach
- 01:19:50 [Karen]
- ...Not just about what it would cost FB to participate
- 01:20:01 [Karen]
- ...but to strive for that really broad participation
- 01:20:05 [Karen]
- ...It's more than $20K
- 01:20:10 [Karen]
- Daniel: We are out of time
- 01:20:17 [Karen]
- ...I'd like to thank our panelists
- 01:20:24 [Karen]
- ...HOpe it's the start of a conversation
- 01:20:31 [Karen]
- ...Reminds me of when Google came up to stage
- 01:20:39 [Steven]
- s/HO/Ho/
- 01:20:39 [Karen]
- ...and asked why Google should join W3C
- 01:20:44 [Karen]
- ...and now we have TV Raman
- 01:20:49 [Karen]
- [crowd laughs]
- 01:20:51 [Ileana]
- Ileana has joined #TPAC
- 01:20:55 [Karen]
- ...Hope this is start of a new friendship
- 01:20:58 [Karen]
- [applause]
- 01:21:02 [Karen]
- session ends
- 01:21:03 [IleanaLeuca]
- IleanaLeuca has joined #TPAC
- 01:21:13 [IanJ]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 01:21:13 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
- 01:21:24 [IanJ]
- Scribe: Jeanne
- 01:21:52 [timeless]
- ScribeNick: jeanne
- 01:22:06 [jeanne]
- topic: Lightning talks
- 01:22:11 [kford]
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- 01:23:55 [jeanne]
- Henry Thompson: This is the final session for today, it is the lightning talks session
- 01:24:45 [jeanne]
- topic: Marcos Caceres of Opera: If MacGyver was a spec editor
- 01:25:01 [FabGandon]
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- 01:25:20 [IanJ]
- topic: Multimodality in Enterprise Applications
- 01:25:39 [jeanne]
- s/topic: Marcos Caceres of Opera: If MacGyver was a spec editor/Multimodality i nEnterprise Applications
- 01:25:39 [IanJ]
- s/topic: Marcos Caceres of Opera: If MacGyver was a spec editor//
- 01:25:52 [maraki]
- maraki has joined #tpac
- 01:26:17 [jeanne]
- This is an application the does the input in voice and gestures
- 01:26:32 [jun]
- jun has joined #tpac
- 01:26:58 [timeless]
- s/ and gestures/, gestures, and photos/
- 01:27:31 [jeanne]
- ...[demo of an image of audience, writing on top of it and adding it to the handheld application
- 01:28:26 [jeanne]
- ... brought it down into Office 2010, added it as an animation, it is all done with interop with Ink spec and SMIL spec.
- 01:28:37 [timeless]
- InkML - The Ink Markup Language <http://www.w3.org/2002/mmi/ink>
- 01:28:37 [Judy]
- Judy has joined #tpac
- 01:29:06 [timeless]
- SMIL - Synchronized Multimedia Integration Language <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-smil>
- 01:29:06 [jeanne]
- ...shows markup and InkML spec
- 01:29:58 [IanJ]
- topic: If MacGyver was a spec editor: simple tools, unbelievable result
- 01:30:03 [Karen]
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macgyver
- 01:30:14 [jeanne]
- topic: Marcos Caceres of Opera: If MacGyver was a spec editor
- 01:30:35 [jeanne]
- I am presenting work we are doing editing the W3C specs
- 01:30:50 [IanJ]
- s/W3C/Widgets/
- 01:31:10 [jeanne]
- ... There are different parts of the text - the really important are the testable assersions: Must, should, may
- 01:31:20 [jeanne]
- ... they need to be tested and verified
- 01:31:38 [jeanne]
- ... MUST is expensive it takes an average of 3 tests.
- 01:31:42 [timeless]
- s/assersions/assertions/
- 01:31:49 [kohei]
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- 01:32:17 [timeless]
- [ Slide title: Spec - XHTML ]
- 01:32:19 [jeanne]
- ...MacGyver would would bring together a group of tests, mash them together and have the result shown
- 01:32:42 [timeless]
- [ (jeanne 's transcription is from ~2 slides back) ]
- 01:32:55 [timeless]
- [ (marcos is jumping too fast through his slides) ]
- 01:33:08 [jeanne]
- ... given a Spec, look for the ids in the code
- 01:33:31 [jeanne]
- ... Reduce your musts, use shoulds and may's with caution, use active voice. Keep things simple.
- 01:33:54 [jeanne]
- Question: How did you get the editor to do the annotations needed?
- 01:34:17 [jeanne]
- Answer: I asked my self, We created the data that we needed.
- 01:34:29 [IanJ]
- (and was natural based on Anne van Kesteren practices)
- 01:34:41 [Marcos]
- Marcos has joined #tpac
- 01:35:16 [jeanne]
- topic: Robin Berjon - A Fresh Specification Writing Tool
- 01:35:26 [timeless]
- [ slides fail ACL ]
- 01:36:09 [jeanne]
- [moves to the next speaker, slides not working]
- 01:36:23 [jeanne]
- topic: Rigo, Privacy and data governance
- 01:37:38 [jeanne]
- Don't touch my data: instead of modifiying database, it is just added on to legacy data
- 01:37:52 [jeanne]
- ... make the policy travel with the data
- 01:38:07 [jeanne]
- ... treated in W3C Workshop on Access Control
- 01:38:24 [jeanne]
- ... Next Workshop on Obligations in 2010
- 01:38:45 [jeanne]
- Henry thompson: who is your customer, who are you trying to convince?
- 01:39:14 [jeanne]
- Rigo: The database professionals, that is who we want to convince.
- 01:40:07 [jeanne]
- Topic: Robin Berjon of Vodophone: A fresh specification writing tool
- 01:40:15 [dom]
- s/Vodo/Voda/
- 01:40:19 [dom]
- s/phone/fone/
- 01:40:31 [jeanne]
- ... Why? Not because others are bad, but I wanted the spec editors to be able to move faster.
- 01:41:01 [jeanne]
- ... you create a document, you go to the browser, look at it and fix the bugs.
- 01:41:35 [jeanne]
- ... with most of the tools you have to launch another tool. This saves 30% of the rules.
- 01:41:45 [jeanne]
- ... It creates pubrules compliant output
- 01:41:56 [Steven]
- Slides http://berjon.com/slides/20091104-respec/_respec.html
- 01:42:06 [jeanne]
- ... it pretty much writes the spec for you.
- 01:42:22 [dom]
- -> http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-access/ Example of usage of ReSpec.js in WARP spec
- 01:42:30 [jeanne]
- ... it does references and highlighting automatically.
- 01:42:42 [jeanne]
- ... it has syntax highlighting in examples
- 01:43:03 [jeanne]
- ... Limitations, there are more features being developed.
- 01:43:48 [jeanne]
- Rigo: Can you integrate an EMACS/Eliza tool to write the text for you? [laughs]
- 01:44:16 [jeanne]
- DanC: Can you show an example?
- 01:44:22 [arun]
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- 01:45:20 [maraki]
- maraki has joined #tpac
- 01:45:25 [jeanne]
- [demos]
- 01:46:06 [shiki]
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- 01:46:27 [jeanne]
- topic:Jacques Durand - TAMElizer
- 01:46:28 [darobin]
- darobin has joined #tpac
- 01:46:44 [dom]
- -> http://code.google.com/p/tamelizer/ Tamelizer project
- 01:46:50 [jeanne]
- Small Open Source code you can download
- 01:47:05 [jeanne]
- ... Test assertions are between Spec and Testing
- 01:47:07 [silvia]
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- 01:47:17 [silvia]
- silvia has joined #tpac
- 01:47:36 [Rotan]
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- 01:47:42 [jeanne]
- ... Test Assertion markup language. Simple markup, it could be more sophisticated for advanced user.
- 01:47:56 [jeanne]
- ... the report gives you more diagnostic information
- 01:48:09 [Steven]
- Slides: http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/1104-tpac-lt2/tamelizer-lightning-final.pdf
- 01:48:30 [jeanne]
- ... XML files that are embedded in the documents
- 01:48:56 [jeanne]
- ... it can show the individual pass/fail of tests.
- 01:49:13 [jeanne]
- ...In the second phase, you do test analysis
- 01:49:26 [jeanne]
- ... this is where we do much better than other tools.
- 01:49:41 [jeanne]
- ... You can get the entire chain into the Test Report
- 01:50:12 [jeanne]
- Henry: What spec did you do this for and how many assertions?
- 01:50:27 [jeanne]
- web services operatibility and 250 test assertions
- 01:51:06 [IanJ]
- -> http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10-Guide/ EARL Guide
- 01:51:12 [jeanne]
- Shadi: I encourage you to look at the EARL protocol, it is an RDF protocal but backward compatible to XML.
- 01:52:12 [jeanne]
- topic: The End of the Beginning Daniel Glazman
- 01:52:34 [arun]
- Note that glazou is tilting his screen
- 01:53:11 [jeanne]
- demos of rotating cube, fingerprint application (in 15 lines of code) and a game done is SVG that is in Canvas. Very simple
- 01:53:33 [timeless]
- s/fingerprint/tilt detector ["level"]/
- 01:53:35 [jeanne]
- ... a font dragr to test new fonts
- 01:53:38 [Rotan]
- Rotan has joined #tpac
- 01:53:56 [timeless]
- s/a font dragr/"font dragr"/
- 01:53:58 [IanJ]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 01:53:58 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
- 01:54:50 [jeanne]
- Henry: The box you were holding has an accelerometer, right?
- 01:54:56 [jeanne]
- Yes.
- 01:55:05 [jeanne]
- Judy: How was the accessibility
- 01:55:13 [jeanne]
- Daniel: I don't know.
- 01:55:17 [IanJ]
- [Reminder: feedback form, thanks!: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/tpac2009-feedback/]
- 01:55:24 [timeless]
- s/Yes./Yes. All laptops have accelerometers in their hard disk drives to handle shocks./
- 01:55:45 [kford]
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- 01:56:37 [jeanne]
- Judy: It looks neat. It would be great if the accessibility support right from the beginning. Can we be sure we can get you hooked up with the right people to help with that.
- 01:57:40 [jeanne]
- Chaas: the accessibility are in the hardware APIs, the hardware knows when it is working. We have to work on how we make that an accessible application
- 01:57:48 [kawata]
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- 01:57:51 [timeless]
- s/Chaas/Chaals/
- 01:57:52 [kohei]
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- 01:57:59 [IanJ]
- [Applause]
- 01:58:05 [jeanne]
- Topic: Ralph closing comments
- 01:58:10 [kohei]
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- 01:58:22 [timeless]
- s/accessible application/acessible application (by making things like canvas accessible)/
- 01:58:31 [IanJ]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/tpac2009-feedback/ Feedback!
- 01:58:33 [zarella]
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- 01:58:40 [rkuntsch]
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- 01:58:43 [tantek]
- I think this might have been the best Tech Plenary Day I have attended. Well done organizers, speakers, and panelists.
- 01:58:44 [jeanne]
- This was a large team effort. I especially want to thank the Internet Society for their generous support. There is a feedback survey, please complete it.
- 01:58:44 [ddahl2]
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- caribou has left #tpac
- 01:59:49 [Steven]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 01:59:49 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html Steven
- 02:01:19 [Steven]
- i/scribenick: Karen/Scribe: Karen
- 02:01:24 [Steven]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 02:01:24 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html Steven
- 02:01:27 [IanJ]
- IanJ has joined #tpac
- 02:01:53 [jeanne]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 02:01:53 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html jeanne
- 02:04:53 [Marcos]
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- 02:05:00 [Zakim]
- disconnecting the lone participant, MeetingRoom, in W3C_TP(*)11:30AM
- 02:06:27 [IanJ]
- IanJ has joined #tpac
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- Judy has joined #tpac
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- 02:19:36 [Zakim]
- W3C_TP(*)11:30AM has ended
- 02:19:37 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Ralph, MeetingRoom
- 02:19:43 [Ralph]
- zakim, bye
- 02:19:43 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #tpac
- 02:19:47 [Ralph]
- rrsagent, bye
- 02:19:47 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items