13:59:53 RRSAgent has joined #aapi 13:59:53 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/27-aapi-irc 14:00:09 Zakim has joined #aapi 14:00:21 zakim, this will be aapi 14:00:24 ok, Andi, I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)10:00AM already started 14:01:16 rrsagent, make logs public 14:01:27 Scribe: Andi 14:01:46 Meeting: AAPI 14:02:37 +[Mozilla] 14:02:40 Zakim, Mozilla is David_Bolter 14:02:44 +David_Bolter; got it 14:03:56 +Cynthia_Shelly 14:04:05 cyns has joined #aapi 14:07:44 MichaelC has joined #aapi 14:09:12 topic: Strong Native Semantics, mapping in HTML and ARIA 14:09:13 Stevef has joined #aapi 14:09:24 DB: have issues to raise 14:09:40 DB: will e-mail Cynthia 14:09:42 chair: Cynthia 14:11:18 CS: looking at the spreadsheet 14:11:42 +fhirsch 14:12:47 zakim, fhirsch is Steven_Faulkner 14:12:47 +Steven_Faulkner; got it 14:13:27 spreadsheet is a copy of the table from the HTML 5 specification 14:14:15 column C is from the HTML 5 spec, Column D is what we think should be allowed to override it 14:14:40 DB: can the ARIA implementation in the browser choose to respect the author's coding regardless of the table? 14:14:44 SF: yes 14:14:50 CS: thinks it's still under discussion 14:15:02 CS: don't think we want different browsers doing different things 14:15:29 DB: as long as we can decide within this group what the browsers will do, we're not tied to this table 14:15:43 CS: would like to make this normative 14:16:03 CS: would be published in the HTML 5 spec 14:16:23 SF: this table is authoring conformance, not browser behavior 14:16:59 DB: we think it will be more accessible if we respect the ARIA coding 14:17:16 User agents are required to implement ARIA semantics on all HTML elements, as defined in the ARIA specifications. The implicit ARIA semantics defined below must be recognised by implementations. [ARIAIMPL] 14:17:55 CS: if query ARIA role on input type=button, you would get "button" 14:18:21 SF: references thread on element 14:18:32 SF: put in a bug on HTML 5 WG 14:19:10 SF: both Henri and Simon agree with ARIA overrides on element 14:19:25 CS: willing to go element by element is a good sign 14:20:28 SF: difficult subject - don't want to encourage people to write bad code - but if they do, want to encourage them to make it accessible 14:20:45 CS: ARIA was designed to fix bad code 14:21:17 SF: validator shouldn't be used to discourage people including ARIA to make it accessible 14:21:59 SF: more important use of validation tool is to ensure that if you're using ARIA, you're using the correct values in the correct combination 14:22:25 SF: limited utility if only checking source code 14:22:40 SF: in most cases, will be adding ARIA stuff using JavaScript 14:22:56 CS: prefer to have it in the markup because it's easier to understand the code 14:23:24 SF: if have it hardcoded and JavaScript is not available, it becomes meaningless 14:24:02 DB: HTML, CSS, and JavaScript are the way to do highly interactive stuff but it can't really be validated 14:24:17 CS: much harder to validate imperative, rather than declarative 14:25:07 line 41: input element with a type attribute in the Week state 14:25:31 SF: this is a date picker but pick by week 14:25:47 SF: possible values of "type" are considered states 14:26:00 CS: adding column with markup in next rev 14:26:52 DB: column C is the default role 14:27:04 DB: is browser ever adding ARIA to the DOM? 14:27:18 DB: currently, FF doesn't add ARIA to the DOM 14:27:32 CS: can see reasons for both approaches - don't think it's settled 14:27:42 DB: all browsers need to do it the same way 14:28:27 CS: can see implementation where it would be good to have all default roles populated in the DOM 14:28:36 DB: potential benefit for DOM-based AT 14:29:14 CS: if HTML spec describes as default values for attributes, shouldn't be different from other default attributes 14:29:25 CS: other default attributes are in the DOM 14:30:49 Andi has joined #aapi 14:31:16 Create Bug: Does HTML native semantic populate aria-role attribute with a default value in the DOM? 14:31:59 AS: nothing in the UAIG about how the UA populates the DOM 14:32:07 CS: think this is an HTML 5 issue 14:32:21 DB: but we probably want to make a "suggestion" 14:32:40 DB: be interesting to know everyone's thinking on this 14:32:56 CS: ARIA has been used to fill in holes in API implementations 14:33:13 CS: really have to know where the holes are in HTML to API mapping to know when you need ARIA and when you don't 14:33:23 CS: back to line 41 14:33:33 CS: there's no ARIA role for a date picker is there? 14:33:37 SF: no 14:34:00 SF: added complexity - base control may be a button or text field 14:34:07 CS: input type=week doesn't have a rendering? 14:34:09 SF: no 14:34:33 SF: the only current implementation is Opera 14:35:10 CS: has no role 14:35:46 CS: general issue with HTML 5 - no specified rendering - color picker too 14:36:04 SF: some would say that's a feature, not a bug - don't want to tell browser venders how to do it 14:36:27 SF: implied that well-known controls have certain actions associated with them 14:36:55 SF: ARIA issue is that a lot of them are not supported in browsers 14:38:01 SF: a lot of the HTML 5 controls are not supported in browsers. Need ARIA support to fill in the gaps. 14:38:09 http://code.google.com/p/html5-now/ 14:38:20 CS: back to input type=week - override with widget 14:38:37 CS: seems weird that there would be native semantics that can't be addressed by ARIA 14:39:13 SF: color picker - like a dialog with things in it 14:39:33 CS: depends on implementation - client app - role would be "window", name would be title bar 14:39:34 a colorpicker might map to MSAA ROLE_SYSTEM_BUTTONDROPDOWNGRID 14:40:13 CS: uncomfortable that there are things in native HTML which don't map to an API and you can't add ARIA. 14:40:44 DB: can't say the Web can only innovate in the space defined by ARIA 14:40:58 CS: concern with implicit roles in HTML that don't have matching ARIA roles 14:41:25 line 42: link element that represents a hyperlink 14:41:39 CS: how does this represent a hyperlink? 14:42:08 SF: think we should only be looking at things within body (not head) 14:42:28 SF: link element can be in body in HTML 5 14:42:37 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/semantics.html#the-link-element 14:43:28 SF: relationship between HTML 5 last calls: whatwg vs. W3C version? 14:43:45 CS: doesn't meet W3C criteria for last call - don't have consensus in group 14:44:15 CS: seems like they're at least a year away by W3C rules 14:44:56 s/CS: seems like they're at least a year away by W3C rules// 14:45:18 s/CS: doesn't meet W3C criteria for last call - don't have consensus in group// 14:46:44 CS: when does link represent a hyperlink? can link appear in the body? is it exposed to uesrs? 14:47:12 line 43: menu element with a type attribute in the context menu state 14:47:25 CS: think there is an MSAA role of menu 14:47:31 CS: should at least be an ARIA menu 14:47:39 CS: no role is inappropriate 14:47:57 SF: what about an abstract role? 14:48:13 CS: but we want something that will alert the user that there is an interactive element 14:48:38 SF: "no role" means no ARIA role but there will be a mapping to the accessibility API in the browser 14:48:43 SF: depends on what it is 14:49:14 but - CS - how are context menus handled in MSAA? 14:49:21 s/but/bug/ 14:50:49 CS: thinks "default role" would be a better term 14:51:10 CS: mapping to ARIA roles which seems strange - thinks mapping to APIs is clearer 14:51:28 CS: thinks they think map HTML to ARIA, then to API 14:51:39 CS: extra level of indirection that is not necessary 14:52:06 CS: seem to think that ARIA is an intermediate layer between HTML and API 14:52:23 DB: agree that it "can" be but is not necessary - HTML can go straight to API 14:52:31 CS: better if specs reflect that 14:53:08 CS: once we have defined equivalence between HTML and ARIA elements, can define where HTML can go straight to APIs 14:53:56 SF: can discuss this document at TPAC next week if CS and DB have completed their bits 14:53:57 -Steven_Faulkner 14:54:35 No meeting next week 14:57:16 -Andi_Snow_Weaver 14:57:17 -David_Bolter 14:57:17 -Cynthia_Shelly 14:57:18 WAI_PFWG(AAPI)10:00AM has ended 14:57:19 Attendees were Andi_Snow_Weaver, David_Bolter, Cynthia_Shelly, Steven_Faulkner 14:57:22 zakim, bye 14:57:22 Zakim has left #aapi 14:57:36 rrsagent, make minutes 14:57:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/27-aapi-minutes.html Andi 14:58:51 s/CS: doesn't meet W3C criteria for last call - don't have consensus in group// 14:58:56 rrsagent, make minutes 14:58:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/27-aapi-minutes.html Andi 16:10:51 davidb has joined #aapi 16:23:34 rrsagent, off