or 14:21:37 it would be better not to remove these, but is there a relaible way to romve on table related elements for example? 14:21:50 CS: what happens if there is a labelledby? 14:22:35 CS: example: progress bar that is a table 14:22:51 CS: one of children is text 14:23:02 CS: if parent uses labelledby that points to the child, does this work? 14:23:05 CS: it should 14:23:29 CS: agree 14:23:40 DB: role=presentation - just talking about the element that has that role 14:24:09 DB: if

with role=presentation, doesn't mean nested

s are presenational 14:24:19 DB: tables are special 14:24:58 CS: if remove table, having cells sitting there without table doesn't make sense 14:25:06 TB: if leave the children, there wouldn't be any context 14:26:33 suggest tables and lists should be special cases 14:28:42 CS: Stevef: maybe 14:28:54 CS: maybe the only special cases in HTML but there may be other special cases in other languages 14:29:02 TB: what about mathml? 14:29:20 CS: seems like lists and tables are places where the children without the parent are invalid 14:30:13 DB: structural elements that have related structural child elements, the child elements inherit role=presentation 14:30:32 CS: example, table is presentational, so are cells 14:30:47 DB: unless overridden by explicit roles in the children 14:31:30 DB: or focusable 14:32:19 descendents that are text content are not removed from the accessible tree 14:32:52 Stevef, when creating the accessible tree, FF skips over table structure if within a table role="presentation", but includes everything else otherwise. (with exceptions) 14:33:04 AndiSnow has joined #aapi 14:33:07 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_general 14:33:33 scribe: AndiSnow 14:33:45 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_general 14:33:45 davidbL cool! 14:34:33 CS: yes 14:35:29 topic: comment 210 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/details?comment_id=210 14:37:35 DB: if click handler is on ancestor but the child is what gets clicked on, how do you determine that you need to expose the child? 14:37:47 CS: pattern I was talking about, click handler on document 14:37:54 CS: if element is button, call function 14:38:07 DB: or certain ID, class, etc. - can get pretty hairy 14:38:17 DB: can't cover that case 14:38:32 CS: probably need a WCAG technique or authoring practice technique or both 14:39:41 CS: shouldn't put the click handler on the ancestor 14:39:41 DB: talk about in aria-activedescendent as well 14:39:46 Andi has joined #aapi 14:40:44 scribe: Andi 14:40:44 CS: bug - need WCAG and/or ARIA techniques 14:40:48 assign to Steve 14:41:17 CS: Gez would be another option 14:42:50 CS: if have click handler that's only on the ancestor, shouldn't be using inherited presentation 14:43:03 DB: if put ARIA role on object that is a button, handler can be on the button or the parent, don't care 14:43:28 DB: but if there is a click handler on a parent, and there is no aria role on the child, that's a problem 14:44:04 CS: a click handler on an element that doesn't have either a native interactive role or an ARIA role that makes it interactive is an error? 14:44:08 DB: not sure about that 14:45:07 CS: the thing the user is supposed to be clicking on either needs to be a button or have a role that makes it interactive 14:45:39 CS: if have click handler on parent that contains things users can click on but they don't have interactive roles, then it's an error 14:45:56 DB: also wondering about tabindex 14:47:03 DB: if element has tabindex="-1", wouldn't we expose that? 14:47:11 -Tim_Boland 14:47:15 Section 3.7 Actions, add "the element is focusable" 14:48:26 tahnsk andi... 14:49:44 if somebody asks gez to join PF (like janina) he will and he will help 14:50:36 Stevef, \o/ 14:50:41 topic: Role Mapping http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/details?comment_id=210 14:50:52 starting with "main" 14:51:36 Andi: is the above the correct link? 14:51:54 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_role 14:52:07 main is a landmark role 14:52:21 use AriaRole for UIA and object attributes for IA2 and ATK 14:53:49 marquee 14:54:21 DB: should we use ROLE_SYSTEM_ANIMATION for MSAA? waiting for decision to implement in FF 14:54:38 David to send e-mail to Cynthia about that 14:56:00 DB: sent 14:56:07 note: AXGroup, AXSubrole: "AXLandmarkMain", AXRoleDescription: "main" on Mac 14:56:13 menu: okay 14:56:19 menubar: okay 14:56:46 latest Mac tests here : http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/aria-tests/ARIA-Safari-RoleTests280909.html 14:57:28 option 14:57:48 CS: wouldn't be surprised if Apple is mapping "select" to menu 14:58:16 CS: Apple: "select" with multiples is a listbox, "select" without multiples is a menu 14:59:09 bug - CS - synchronize ARIA mapping of options with HTML 5 mapping of options, specifically how it relates to HTML 5 commands 14:59:52 DB: should "timer" map to ROLE_SYSTEM_CLOCK? send e-mail to CS 15:00:23 DB: FF has history of breaking rules wrt MSAA, would like to keep doing that for backward compatibility 15:00:32 CS: tools flag as error 15:00:47 DB: only way to give access when there was nothing but MSAA 15:01:02 DB to send CS an e-mail, explain what doing, why important, etc. 15:01:16 -David_Bolter 15:01:18 -Andi_Snow_Weaver 15:01:18 WAI_PFWG(AAPI)10:00AM has ended 15:01:19 Attendees were Andi_Snow_Weaver, Cynthia_Shelly, David_Bolter, Tim_Boland 15:01:23 zakim, bye 15:01:23 Zakim has left #aapi 15:01:34 rrsagent, make minuts 15:01:34 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minuts', Andi. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:01:41 rrsagent, make minutes 15:01:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/20-aapi-minutes.html Andi