14:19:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:19:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/16-forms-irc
14:19:45 <wiecha> rrsagent, make logs public
14:19:52 <wiecha> Meeting: Forms weekly telecon
14:19:56 <wiecha> Chair: Charlie Wiecha
14:20:00 <wiecha> Regrets: John Boyer
14:20:20 <wiecha> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0017.html
14:41:04 <Steven> Agenda+DOM3 Events
14:42:03 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()10:45AM has now started
14:42:09 <Zakim> +[IBM]
14:42:14 <wiecha> zakim, [IBM] is wiecha
14:42:14 <Zakim> +wiecha; got it
14:43:47 <wiecha> zakim, who is talking?
14:44:06 <Zakim> wiecha, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
14:46:09 <nick> zakim, code?
14:46:18 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick
14:46:55 <Zakim> +Nick_van_den_Bleeken
14:48:47 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
14:49:29 <Zakim> + +1.650.515.aaaa
14:49:55 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:49:55 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:49:57 <Zakim> +Steven
14:49:58 <ebruchez> zakim, +1.650.515.aaaa is ebruchez
14:49:58 <Zakim> +ebruchez; got it
14:50:58 <unl> unl has joined #forms
14:51:00 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
14:51:08 <klotz> can someone else take minutes?
14:52:00 <wiecha> will check when we get everybody on the call
14:52:02 <Zakim> +Leigh_Klotz
14:53:09 <Zakim> +unl
14:53:16 <unl> zakim, mute me
14:53:16 <Zakim> unl should now be muted
14:53:44 <unl> zakim, unmute me
14:53:44 <Zakim> unl should no longer be muted
14:54:18 <wiecha> Scribe: Uli
14:55:33 <unl> charlie: john is on a acm conference, talking about xfomrs and odf
14:56:05 <unl> charlie: 
14:56:15 <wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0017.html
14:58:21 <Zakim> -unl
14:59:05 <Zakim> +unl
14:59:37 <nick> wiecha: Demo Ubiquity at TPAC would be good; also SML
15:00:18 <nick> Steven: Charlie you should contact the person responsible for the agenda
15:01:23 <nick> Steven: Is using namespace handlers in his xforms extension, to let the html look like XML
15:01:41 <nick> wiecha: I will see I can get on the panel
15:01:52 <nick> zakim, mute me
15:01:52 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted
15:01:53 <wiecha> Scribe: Nick
15:02:01 <wiecha> scribenick: nick
15:02:29 <unl> zakim, mute me
15:02:29 <Zakim> unl should now be muted
15:02:32 <nick> wiecha: anything else we need to discuss about TPAC
15:02:43 <nick> zakim, unmute me
15:02:43 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should no longer be muted
15:03:11 <nick> ebruchez: want to confirm if we are meeting on Mo-Tu
15:03:12 <ebruchez> ok
15:03:25 <Steven> 4 days
15:03:34 <Steven> 2 at tpac (mo tu) and 2 at Xerox
15:03:41 <nick> nick: we agreed to meet on Mo-Tu in the TP hotel, and Thu-Fri at PARC
15:04:59 <nick> TOPIC: backplane
15:05:27 <nick> wiecha: we are generating a short report so it is consumable by the AC
15:06:24 <nick> wiecha: script based extensibility platform, Ubiquity SMILE 
15:06:46 <nick> wiecha: you can expect drafts at the backplane e-mail list
15:06:55 <nick> TOPIC: DOM 3 events
15:07:03 <wiecha>   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0009.html
15:07:14 <wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0015.html
15:07:30 <unl> s/SMILE/SMIL/
15:07:41 <nick> wiecha: we need a volunteer that does a detailed reading
15:08:13 <nick> Steven: XForms does use DOM 2 Events, and XML Events would use DOM 3 events
15:08:40 <unl> s/XML Events/XML Events 2/
15:09:04 <nick> wiecha: they are removing the namespace aware add and remove listeners 
15:09:13 <nick> Steven: are implementations using them?
15:09:28 <nick> wiecha: are they used to send namespace events
15:09:52 <nick> Steven: Yes they are removing the namespace events
15:10:07 <nick> Steven: do we have namespace events?
15:10:18 <nick> wiecha: no we don't have those
15:10:51 <nick> Steven: Oh yes, that is because we depend on DOM Events 2 which doesn't has namespaced events
15:11:39 <nick> Steven: You can't use the argument that they aren't implemented because the spec hasn't reached CR yet
15:12:09 <nick> wiecha: I didn't found any usages 'in the wild'
15:12:29 <nick> Steven: this version is issued this month the previous version was 1 year old
15:12:52 <nick> Steven: it is to early to say it is at risque before CR
15:13:14 <nick> wiecha: they shouldn't only look at browsers
15:13:42 <nick> ACTION: Steven to respond to DOM 3 events http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0009.html
15:13:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-566 - Respond to DOM 3 events http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0009.html [on Steven Pemberton - due 2009-09-23].
15:14:05 <nick> wiecha: I can have a deeper look at it, and we can discuss it during FtF
15:14:37 <nick> ACTION Charlie to have a closer look at DOM Level 3 events, and the impact on XForms
15:14:37 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Charlie
15:18:28 <Zakim> -Steven
15:20:04 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:20:04 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:20:06 <Zakim> +Steven
15:20:49 <nick> TOPIC: JSON in XForms
15:20:52 <wiecha> http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-forms-minutes.html
15:21:15 <nick> wiecha: posts link to JSON in submission (see link above)
15:21:19 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-forms-minutes.html#item02
15:23:06 <nick> wiecha: Kenneth has an implementation of it?
15:23:07 <Steven> http://www.picoforms.com/
15:23:36 <nick> Steven: yes, and they gone public with it
15:24:26 <nick> wiecha: it is JSON on the wire, and unwrapping JSON to XML and wrapping the XML to JSON on submission
15:24:41 <nick> Steven: the use content type
15:25:33 <nick> wiecha: why is this sufficient, it only works for 100% XForms app, no app code is in Javascript in a component
15:26:42 <nick> klotz: isn't enough to access the instance data as JSON from within your Javascript component
15:27:02 <nick> wiecha: that's what we do, it's virtual XML
15:27:16 <nick> klotz: It is just the way you want to access it
15:27:54 <nick> wiecha: we have currently only the corners covered
15:28:56 <nick> wiecha: it would be cool if dojo can use XForms in the middle that allows an XML component to work together with a DOJO component
15:29:56 <nick> wiecha: you could see a JQuery expression language in XForms
15:30:51 <nick> wiecha: Leigh do you think it matters if they can use javascript or XPath in their binds
15:31:59 <nick> klotz: I think it would be enough that they could extract JSON from us and convert it back to XML and submit it back to us
15:33:13 <nick> klotz: a copy is easier then a live JSON view on XML
15:34:11 <nick> wiecha: before we felt the conversion from JSON to XML is quite easy but the way around is more difficult
15:34:31 <nick> klotz: this is because there is no standard model
15:34:43 <nick> klotz: it will be hard for mixed content
15:36:18 <nick> klotz: but that doesn't need to be in 1.0
15:36:57 <nick> wiecha: Is it an interesting topic for the WG, what's the priority
15:39:59 <nick> wiecha: is there interest in accessing XForms instance data using JSON
15:40:31 <nick> klotz: yes there is, but I don't see the need for JavaScript expressions in calculates, refs, binds,...
15:41:35 <nick> Steven: XForms shouldn't change, the instances should like XML to the form, the instance can be populated from JSON but it should be viewed as XML
15:43:08 <nick> klotz: mixing JSON and XML is only interesting if you mix Script and XForms
15:43:59 <nick> Steven: I think you shouldn't care in mash-ups you should only care about modifying data
15:46:13 <nick> klotz: it is a separate problem to have binds in DOJO
15:46:52 <nick> wiecha: It is interesting to catch up about this with Kenneth
15:47:58 <nick> ACTION Charlie to prepare a discussion about JSON in XForms for the FtF
15:47:58 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Charlie
15:49:24 <nick> TOPIC: Model Enhancements
15:49:31 <nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/ModelEnhancementRequirements  
15:50:42 <nick> wiecha: Encapsulation  is about reusing the model in multiple forms
15:51:56 <nick> wiecha: what are the issues with Encapsulation, what are the difficulties from a spec point of view?
15:52:11 <nick> wiecha: it are different DOMs are there any other problems
15:52:33 <nick> wiecha: what are the problems with having different DOMs?
15:53:50 <nick> wiecha: one of the arguments was code reuse, then you don't have the duplicate id problem
15:54:28 <nick> klotz: what happens when you import it twice
15:54:57 <nick> wiecha: don't go there it is covered lower on page (multiple inclusions) 
15:55:51 <nick> wiecha: The next enhancement was Narrowing-Only Inheritance / Specialization 
15:56:21 <nick> wiecha: (goes over the bullets on the wiki) 
15:56:42 <nick> wiecha: it is about extending the original model
15:57:11 <nick> wiecha: I don't understand Fragment Inclusion completly
15:57:53 <nick> Steven: isn't it like css, including fragments opposed to including everything
15:58:30 <nick> wiecha: I see it is sub-setting a model 
15:58:43 <nick> wiecha: It looks dangerous
15:59:35 <nick> wiecha: the original other of the model should prepare the model for it
16:00:06 <nick> wiecha: Adaptations / Composition -> re-used multiple times in the same form
16:00:44 <nick> s/re-used/re-use/
16:02:46 <ebruchez> bye
16:02:46 <nick> zakim, unmute me
16:02:46 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken was not muted, nick
16:02:49 <Zakim> -wiecha
16:02:51 <Zakim> -Steven
16:03:42 <nick> rssagent, make minutes
16:03:47 <Zakim> -unl
16:03:50 <Zakim> -Nick_van_den_Bleeken
16:03:52 <Zakim> -Leigh_Klotz
16:03:54 <ebruchez> its "rrs", not "rss" ;)
16:04:05 <wiecha> rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/16-forms-minutes.html wiecha
16:04:09 <nick> rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/16-forms-minutes.html nick
16:04:46 <wiecha> rrsagent, bye
16:04:46 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/16-forms-actions.rdf :
16:04:46 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to respond to DOM 3 events http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0009.html [1]
16:04:46 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/16-forms-irc#T15-13-42