IRC log of forms on 2009-09-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:19:40 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #forms

14:19:40 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/16-forms-irc

14:19:45 [wiecha]

rrsagent, make logs public

14:19:52 [wiecha]

Meeting: Forms weekly telecon

14:19:56 [wiecha]

Chair: Charlie Wiecha

14:20:00 [wiecha]

Regrets: John Boyer

14:20:20 [wiecha]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0017.html

14:41:04 [Steven]

Agenda+DOM3 Events

14:42:03 [Zakim]

HTML_Forms()10:45AM has now started

14:42:09 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

14:42:14 [wiecha]

zakim, [IBM] is wiecha

14:42:14 [Zakim]

+wiecha; got it

14:43:47 [wiecha]

zakim, who is talking?

14:44:06 [Zakim]

wiecha, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds

14:46:09 [nick]

zakim, code?

14:46:18 [Zakim]

the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick

14:46:55 [Zakim]

+Nick_van_den_Bleeken

14:48:47 [ebruchez]

ebruchez has joined #forms

14:49:29 [Zakim]

+ +1.650.515.aaaa

14:49:55 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:49:55 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:49:57 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:49:58 [ebruchez]

zakim, +1.650.515.aaaa is ebruchez

14:49:58 [Zakim]

+ebruchez; got it

14:50:58 [unl]

unl has joined #forms

14:51:00 [klotz]

klotz has joined #forms

14:51:08 [klotz]

can someone else take minutes?

14:52:00 [wiecha]

will check when we get everybody on the call

14:52:02 [Zakim]

+Leigh_Klotz

14:53:09 [Zakim]

+unl

14:53:16 [unl]

zakim, mute me

14:53:16 [Zakim]

unl should now be muted

14:53:44 [unl]

zakim, unmute me

14:53:44 [Zakim]

unl should no longer be muted

14:54:18 [wiecha]

Scribe: Uli

14:55:33 [unl]

charlie: john is on a acm conference, talking about xfomrs and odf

14:56:05 [unl]

charlie:

14:56:15 [wiecha]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0017.html

14:58:21 [Zakim]

-unl

14:59:05 [Zakim]

+unl

14:59:37 [nick]

wiecha: Demo Ubiquity at TPAC would be good; also SML

15:00:18 [nick]

Steven: Charlie you should contact the person responsible for the agenda

15:01:23 [nick]

Steven: Is using namespace handlers in his xforms extension, to let the html look like XML

15:01:41 [nick]

wiecha: I will see I can get on the panel

15:01:52 [nick]

zakim, mute me

15:01:52 [Zakim]

Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted

15:01:53 [wiecha]

Scribe: Nick

15:02:01 [wiecha]

scribenick: nick

15:02:29 [unl]

zakim, mute me

15:02:29 [Zakim]

unl should now be muted

15:02:32 [nick]

wiecha: anything else we need to discuss about TPAC

15:02:43 [nick]

zakim, unmute me

15:02:43 [Zakim]

Nick_van_den_Bleeken should no longer be muted

15:03:11 [nick]

ebruchez: want to confirm if we are meeting on Mo-Tu

15:03:12 [ebruchez]

ok

15:03:25 [Steven]

4 days

15:03:34 [Steven]

2 at tpac (mo tu) and 2 at Xerox

15:03:41 [nick]

nick: we agreed to meet on Mo-Tu in the TP hotel, and Thu-Fri at PARC

15:04:59 [nick]

TOPIC: backplane

15:05:27 [nick]

wiecha: we are generating a short report so it is consumable by the AC

15:06:24 [nick]

wiecha: script based extensibility platform, Ubiquity SMILE

15:06:46 [nick]

wiecha: you can expect drafts at the backplane e-mail list

15:06:55 [nick]

TOPIC: DOM 3 events

15:07:03 [wiecha]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0009.html

15:07:14 [wiecha]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0015.html

15:07:30 [unl]

s/SMILE/SMIL/

15:07:41 [nick]

wiecha: we need a volunteer that does a detailed reading

15:08:13 [nick]

Steven: XForms does use DOM 2 Events, and XML Events would use DOM 3 events

15:08:40 [unl]

s/XML Events/XML Events 2/

15:09:04 [nick]

wiecha: they are removing the namespace aware add and remove listeners

15:09:13 [nick]

Steven: are implementations using them?

15:09:28 [nick]

wiecha: are they used to send namespace events

15:09:52 [nick]

Steven: Yes they are removing the namespace events

15:10:07 [nick]

Steven: do we have namespace events?

15:10:18 [nick]

wiecha: no we don't have those

15:10:51 [nick]

Steven: Oh yes, that is because we depend on DOM Events 2 which doesn't has namespaced events

15:11:39 [nick]

Steven: You can't use the argument that they aren't implemented because the spec hasn't reached CR yet

15:12:09 [nick]

wiecha: I didn't found any usages 'in the wild'

15:12:29 [nick]

Steven: this version is issued this month the previous version was 1 year old

15:12:52 [nick]

Steven: it is to early to say it is at risque before CR

15:13:14 [nick]

wiecha: they shouldn't only look at browsers

15:13:42 [nick]

ACTION: Steven to respond to DOM 3 events http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0009.html

15:13:42 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-566 - Respond to DOM 3 events http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0009.html [on Steven Pemberton - due 2009-09-23].

15:14:05 [nick]

wiecha: I can have a deeper look at it, and we can discuss it during FtF

15:14:37 [nick]

ACTION Charlie to have a closer look at DOM Level 3 events, and the impact on XForms

15:14:37 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - Charlie

15:18:28 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:20:04 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

15:20:04 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

15:20:06 [Zakim]

+Steven

15:20:49 [nick]

TOPIC: JSON in XForms

15:20:52 [wiecha]

http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-forms-minutes.html

15:21:15 [nick]

wiecha: posts link to JSON in submission (see link above)

15:21:19 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-forms-minutes.html#item02

15:23:06 [nick]

wiecha: Kenneth has an implementation of it?

15:23:07 [Steven]

http://www.picoforms.com/

15:23:36 [nick]

Steven: yes, and they gone public with it

15:24:26 [nick]

wiecha: it is JSON on the wire, and unwrapping JSON to XML and wrapping the XML to JSON on submission

15:24:41 [nick]

Steven: the use content type

15:25:33 [nick]

wiecha: why is this sufficient, it only works for 100% XForms app, no app code is in Javascript in a component

15:26:42 [nick]

klotz: isn't enough to access the instance data as JSON from within your Javascript component

15:27:02 [nick]

wiecha: that's what we do, it's virtual XML

15:27:16 [nick]

klotz: It is just the way you want to access it

15:27:54 [nick]

wiecha: we have currently only the corners covered

15:28:56 [nick]

wiecha: it would be cool if dojo can use XForms in the middle that allows an XML component to work together with a DOJO component

15:29:56 [nick]

wiecha: you could see a JQuery expression language in XForms

15:30:51 [nick]

wiecha: Leigh do you think it matters if they can use javascript or XPath in their binds

15:31:59 [nick]

klotz: I think it would be enough that they could extract JSON from us and convert it back to XML and submit it back to us

15:33:13 [nick]

klotz: a copy is easier then a live JSON view on XML

15:34:11 [nick]

wiecha: before we felt the conversion from JSON to XML is quite easy but the way around is more difficult

15:34:31 [nick]

klotz: this is because there is no standard model

15:34:43 [nick]

klotz: it will be hard for mixed content

15:36:18 [nick]

klotz: but that doesn't need to be in 1.0

15:36:57 [nick]

wiecha: Is it an interesting topic for the WG, what's the priority

15:39:59 [nick]

wiecha: is there interest in accessing XForms instance data using JSON

15:40:31 [nick]

klotz: yes there is, but I don't see the need for JavaScript expressions in calculates, refs, binds,...

15:41:35 [nick]

Steven: XForms shouldn't change, the instances should like XML to the form, the instance can be populated from JSON but it should be viewed as XML

15:43:08 [nick]

klotz: mixing JSON and XML is only interesting if you mix Script and XForms

15:43:59 [nick]

Steven: I think you shouldn't care in mash-ups you should only care about modifying data

15:46:13 [nick]

klotz: it is a separate problem to have binds in DOJO

15:46:52 [nick]

wiecha: It is interesting to catch up about this with Kenneth

15:47:58 [nick]

ACTION Charlie to prepare a discussion about JSON in XForms for the FtF

15:47:58 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - Charlie

15:49:24 [nick]

TOPIC: Model Enhancements

15:49:31 [nick]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/ModelEnhancementRequirements

15:50:42 [nick]

wiecha: Encapsulation is about reusing the model in multiple forms

15:51:56 [nick]

wiecha: what are the issues with Encapsulation, what are the difficulties from a spec point of view?

15:52:11 [nick]

wiecha: it are different DOMs are there any other problems

15:52:33 [nick]

wiecha: what are the problems with having different DOMs?

15:53:50 [nick]

wiecha: one of the arguments was code reuse, then you don't have the duplicate id problem

15:54:28 [nick]

klotz: what happens when you import it twice

15:54:57 [nick]

wiecha: don't go there it is covered lower on page (multiple inclusions)

15:55:51 [nick]

wiecha: The next enhancement was Narrowing-Only Inheritance / Specialization

15:56:21 [nick]

wiecha: (goes over the bullets on the wiki)

15:56:42 [nick]

wiecha: it is about extending the original model

15:57:11 [nick]

wiecha: I don't understand Fragment Inclusion completly

15:57:53 [nick]

Steven: isn't it like css, including fragments opposed to including everything

15:58:30 [nick]

wiecha: I see it is sub-setting a model

15:58:43 [nick]

wiecha: It looks dangerous

15:59:35 [nick]

wiecha: the original other of the model should prepare the model for it

16:00:06 [nick]

wiecha: Adaptations / Composition -> re-used multiple times in the same form

16:00:44 [nick]

s/re-used/re-use/

16:02:46 [ebruchez]

bye

16:02:46 [nick]

zakim, unmute me

16:02:46 [Zakim]

Nick_van_den_Bleeken was not muted, nick

16:02:49 [Zakim]

-wiecha

16:02:51 [Zakim]

-Steven

16:03:42 [nick]

rssagent, make minutes

16:03:47 [Zakim]

-unl

16:03:50 [Zakim]

-Nick_van_den_Bleeken

16:03:52 [Zakim]

-Leigh_Klotz

16:03:54 [ebruchez]

its "rrs", not "rss" ;)

16:04:05 [wiecha]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:04:05 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/16-forms-minutes.html wiecha

16:04:09 [nick]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:04:09 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/16-forms-minutes.html nick

16:04:46 [wiecha]

rrsagent, bye

16:04:46 [RRSAgent]

I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/16-forms-actions.rdf :

16:04:46 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Steven to respond to DOM 3 events http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0009.html [1]

16:04:46 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/16-forms-irc#T15-13-42