IRC log of swdag2009 on 2009-07-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

08:44:50 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-irc
08:45:05 [cerealtom]
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08:45:52 [danbri]
danbri has changed the topic to: Dagstuhl 2009 - vocab management etc breakout discussion
08:45:57 [ivan]
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08:46:01 [danbri]
rrsagent, please make logs public
08:46:19 [cerealtom]
topic 1. vocab hosting and persistence
08:46:41 [cerealtom]
re hosting there is the vocab hosting best practices document from swdbp
08:47:08 [cerealtom]
re vocabulary alignments there are various developments...
08:48:10 [cerealtom]
sorry, missed the details of the mentioned alignment work
08:48:33 [cerealtom]
OMV: ontology metadata vocabulary
08:49:18 [cerealtom]
re URI schemes...
08:49:24 [danbri]
danbrI: I have a specific proposal on federating independent namespaces, dns risk reduction & long term persistence
08:49:27 [cerealtom]
sharedname.org
08:49:30 [cerealtom]
purl.org
08:49:38 [cerealtom]
(and associated purl software)
08:49:54 [cerealtom]
danbri++ re dns risk reduction
08:50:21 [cerealtom]
also the google vocab namespace
08:51:26 [cerealtom]
lets not enumerate all of these right now
08:52:13 [cerealtom]
question: is physical hosting an issue
08:52:14 [cerealtom]
?
08:52:25 [cerealtom]
consensus: generally yes
08:53:05 [cerealtom]
guus: are we just going to provide a list of existing services or develop some guidelines?
08:54:46 [cerealtom]
now covering the state of the art wrt directory services for vocabs
08:54:58 [cerealtom]
examples, swoogle, watson, falcons, talis schemacache
08:58:18 [cerealtom]
guus: distinction: concept search (e.g watson/swoogle) vs schema search (schemacache)
08:59:49 [cerealtom]
schemaweb.info is outdated and not maintained. schemacache needs to be pushed live
09:00:25 [cerealtom]
schemacache current uri: http://schemacache.test.talis.com/
09:01:16 [cerealtom]
crawling vs curation
09:02:17 [cerealtom]
ivan points out there are some well used offerings in specific domains
09:02:42 [cerealtom]
distinction: general offering versus domain dependent
09:02:49 [cerealtom]
topic 3. versioning
09:03:04 [aldogan]
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09:03:33 [cerealtom]
publishing versioning histories for vocabs
09:03:39 [cerealtom]
(says danbri)
09:04:54 [cerealtom]
danbri mentions tom baker from DC
09:05:10 [cerealtom]
"when did dc:audience appear?" all these aspects are recorded
09:05:46 [cerealtom]
also cf the w3c document versioning scheme
09:05:47 [Reto]
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09:07:21 [cerealtom]
danbri would like a mechanism for people to declare downstream dependencies on vocabularies
09:07:43 [cerealtom]
ivan: its a hairy ie research problem, technical but also sociological
09:13:19 [ivan]
-> http://openprovenance.org/ Open provenance model
09:14:35 [Natasha]
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09:14:37 [cerealtom]
also a need to revisit some of the named graphs work and provide some guidance
09:14:52 [cerealtom]
...to the community at large on usage of NG
09:15:11 [cerealtom]
this was topic 4 (provenance) btw
09:15:38 [cerealtom]
preventing man in the middle attacks is a good use case for signing vocabs with pgp
09:17:36 [cerealtom]
research issue: robustness of vocabs and class hierarchies
09:17:41 [ivan]
chris: falcon and others already have heuristics built in, ie, they reject statements that would define a superclass of foaf:Person
09:17:51 [cerealtom]
and trust mechanisms to address this
09:18:30 [ivan]
cerealtom: for rights, the legal works have been done at open data comons and cc0 at science commons
09:18:42 [ivan]
... active usage of this should be pushed
09:19:00 [ivan]
danbri: that is mostly at data issues
09:19:43 [danbri]
tom: many diff jurisdictions have diff approaches
09:19:48 [danbri]
...whether there's some notion of a db right
09:19:52 [danbri]
...diff legal frameworks
09:20:03 [danbri]
...for making legal claims, of ownerships over sets of data, collections etc
09:20:09 [danbri]
... see work from Jordan Hatchett
09:20:23 [danbri]
... one strategy: put all in public domain
09:20:29 [danbri]
... layer on that social norms
09:20:39 [danbri]
... statements and requests for how it is used
09:20:47 [danbri]
... most ppl want attribution for what they do
09:20:58 [danbri]
.... typically dont want to chase that thru the lawcourts, but was some ack
09:21:12 [danbri]
... cc lets you waive formal rights but express social norms
09:21:24 [danbri]
... open data commons
09:21:44 [danbri]
stefan: eg i'd like to make my data public, but not have it aggregated
09:22:05 [ivan]
-> www.opendatacommons.org Open data commons' site
09:22:15 [danbri]
danbri: see TAMI and respect my privacy work from MIT/DIG (note : Oshani is in SocialWeb XG ...)
09:22:41 [danbri]
see http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2009/SocialWebPrivacy/
09:23:25 [danbri]
tom: talis community license > odc
09:26:25 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:26:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-minutes.html ivan
09:26:44 [danbri]
rrsagent, make minutes public
09:26:44 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', danbri. Try /msg RRSAgent help
09:28:54 [danbri]
http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-irc
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09:36:48 [cerealtom]
Federation of Independent Namespaces
09:37:15 [cerealtom]
mutual back-watching for namespace hosts
09:37:25 [cerealtom]
proposal from danbri and tom baker
09:44:35 [hhalpin]
http://dublincore.org/documents/singapore-framework/
09:44:39 [hhalpin]
Application profiles
09:45:44 [aldogan]
whole range of practices from bare reuse of ontology entities from other namespaces, to owl:import
09:46:30 [aldogan]
one intermediate practice is declaring a module of an ontology to be imported (this works for reasoning purposes)
09:46:55 [hhalpin]
so you can think about this in two ways
09:47:01 [hhalpin]
abstract space of possible combinations
09:47:15 [hhalpin]
which subset of that on some level that can be characterized as graph patterns
09:47:18 [hhalpin]
are good practices
09:47:23 [hhalpin]
on a practical level:
09:47:43 [hhalpin]
let's think about practical examples
09:47:48 [hhalpin]
on an instance level
09:47:53 [hhalpin]
that can be put in tutorials
09:48:55 [hhalpin]
guus: alignments are just vocabularies that link.
09:49:16 [hhalpin]
bizer; but you can have transformation rules rather than alignments via a common concept, ala SKOS
09:49:42 [hhalpin]
transformation rules = data fusion
09:49:42 [ivan]
ivan: there is also the issue of the granularity of terms within vocabularies, if I refer to a specific term, what else do I pull in
09:53:21 [hhalpin]
how can alignments that are manually made
09:53:51 [hhalpin]
rather than automatically made
09:53:55 [aldogan]
is intensional vs. extensional alignments an issue here? or are we just discussing about publishing alignments?
09:53:56 [hhalpin]
be found and used, and validated.
09:54:23 [hhalpin]
I think intensional vs. extensional is vocabulary-dependent.
09:55:04 [hhalpin]
research challenge: lack of semantics and semantics of alignment
09:55:36 [hhalpin]
so you can figure out how to reason properly over aligned vocabularies (again, how much of another vocabulary do you pull in?)
09:55:57 [aldogan]
owl:sameAs often used to map any kind of similarity
09:56:23 [aldogan]
but this is on the social side, since owl:sameAs has a proper (extesional) semantics
09:56:31 [hhalpin]
directory services make it hard to find alignments
09:56:57 [hhalpin]
we need directory services for alignments and make it easier to find them, standard way to host, as well as who said what alignment and provenance of alignment.
09:59:10 [hhalpin]
guus: named graphs may be a potentially a way to get alignments off the ground
09:59:27 [hhalpin]
guus: is this a w3c challenge for named graphs?
10:00:07 [hhalpin]
ivan: how can I make ANY inferences in a multi-namespace document?
10:00:26 [hhalpin]
ivan: does current RDF-based semantics work in multi-namespace documents? Does DL?
10:00:34 [hhalpin]
ivan: Probably for RDF(S), not for DL.
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rrsagent, draft minutes
11:09:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-minutes.html ivan
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11:35:48 [ivan]
-------
11:35:55 [ivan]
Start of session again after lunch
11:36:34 [ivan]
guus Trying to summarize the research challenges and relations to other groups
11:37:47 [ivan]
* Semantics of alignment
11:37:57 [ivan]
* language for publishing algnments
11:38:08 [aldogan]
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11:38:18 [ivan]
* characterizing graph patterns
11:39:42 [ivan]
* internal and external dependencies across vocabularies
11:40:32 [ivan]
* ranking and characterizing directory services
11:42:33 [ivan]
* inferences with multi-namespace vocabularies
11:45:34 [ivan]
s/inferences with multi-namespace vocabularies/inference consequences of cherry-picking/
11:46:05 [aldogan]
isn't the last a special case of the previous one?
11:48:42 [ivan]
* quality criteria for ranking vocabularies and alignments
11:49:20 [ivan]
s/ranking/ranking deployed/
11:49:50 [ivan]
(forget the last one, rephrase:)
11:50:19 [ivan]
* metrics for selecting deployed vocabularies and vocabulary elements
11:55:49 [hhalpin]
asun: not every language expresses the same concepts
11:56:18 [ivan]
* problems of multilingual vocabulary alignments
11:56:21 [hhalpin]
asun: like different kinds of fishes exist in say Greek, not English.
11:56:33 [hhalpin]
harry: but we need to encourage vocabulary schemas to have multiple languages.
11:57:08 [ivan]
s/vocabulary//
11:57:38 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
11:57:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-minutes.html ivan
12:02:11 [hhalpin]
TAG's latest versioning:
12:02:12 [hhalpin]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/versioning-html/
12:03:30 [cerealtom]
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12:05:00 [ivan]
* vocabulary versioning in a distributed environments
12:08:16 [ivan]
Slogan: do not delay the future
12:08:35 [ivan]
* SW specific provenance models
12:09:09 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:09:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-minutes.html ivan
12:09:25 [danbri]
3 or 4 strands that must be brought together: hacker/internet/crypto provenance, database provenance, logical formalism / kr scene (OWL, RIF, ...) .... and then the RDF/dataweb/web2 scene where the best we have is SPARQL graphs
12:14:36 [ivan]
Topic: finding the top 5 research issues
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12:32:26 [danbri]
my personal ranking of topics:
12:32:31 [danbri]
(this isn't private voting is it?)
12:32:31 [danbri]
n2. graph patterns.
12:32:32 [danbri]
n4. provenance models.
12:32:32 [danbri]
n5. quality metrics for selecting vocabs.
12:32:32 [danbri]
n3. vocab dependencies and cherry picking.
12:32:32 [danbri]
n1. semantics of alignments / alignment language.
12:32:34 [danbri]
n6. multilingual vocabs.
12:37:09 [ivan]
After due deliberations and semi-secret voting the result is as follows:
12:39:38 [natasha]
Final list of research challenges
12:39:56 [natasha]
1. Quality metrics for selecting vocabularies and vocabulary elements
12:41:32 [cbaldassarre]
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12:41:41 [natasha]
2. Logical consequences from cherry picking vocabulary elements from distributed vocabularies
12:42:16 [natasha]
3. SW-specific provenance models
12:43:00 [natasha]
4. Semantics of alignments, including languages and models for publishing alignments
12:44:50 [natasha]
5. Characterizing graph patterns in published web data
12:46:52 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:46:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-minutes.html ivan
12:51:13 [aldogan]
1. Semantics of alignments, including languages and models for publishing alignments
12:51:33 [aldogan]
2. vocab dependencies and cherry picking
12:51:49 [aldogan]
3. Quality metrics for selecting vocabularies and vocabulary elements
12:51:59 [aldogan]
4. provenance models
12:53:04 [aldogan]
multilinguality and graph patterns are very important as well, uhm
12:53:20 [aldogan]
unsure how much overlap exists among the topics emerged however
12:59:38 [ivan]
Topic: short term goals
12:59:47 [ivan]
Subtopic: White paper
13:00:01 [ivan]
guus outlining a structure
13:00:24 [ivan]
- URI Scheme (PURL, etc)
13:00:34 [ivan]
- Physical hosting, backup policies
13:01:03 [ivan]
- Versioning strategy (current practice like W3C practice, DC practice)
13:02:13 [ivan]
- DNS Redirect advices, examples, templates
13:03:28 [ivan]
- minimal attribution metadata
13:04:52 [ivan]
- link & advice with respect to ODC
13:05:16 [ivan]
s/ODC/Open Data Commons/
13:08:59 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:08:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-minutes.html ivan
13:09:23 [hhalpin]
i am listening in IRC
13:09:27 [hhalpin]
"listening" via text
13:27:20 [ivan]
Topic: relationships to other groups
13:34:13 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:34:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-minutes.html ivan
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