IRC log of forms on 2009-06-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:39:00 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:39:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-forms-irc
14:39:00 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #forms
14:39:09 [John_Boyer]
zakim, this will be forms
14:39:09 [Zakim]
ok, John_Boyer; I see HTML_Forms()10:45AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:39:16 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, make log public
14:39:34 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Jun/0083.html
14:39:55 [John_Boyer]
Meeting: Weekly Forms WG Teleconference
14:39:58 [John_Boyer]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Jun/0083.html
14:40:01 [John_Boyer]
Chair: John
14:40:11 [John_Boyer]
Regrets: Uli, Leigh (partial)
14:40:59 [Steven]
woof
14:41:20 [Steven]
Hawaii?
14:41:22 [Steven]
Ruff!
14:41:30 [John_Boyer]
LOL
14:41:47 [John_Boyer]
I saw the PR transition request. Thanks for sending that out today!
14:42:40 [Steven]
Fine. Hope they notice it.
14:45:00 [wiecha]
wiecha has joined #forms
14:45:08 [Zakim]
HTML_Forms()10:45AM has now started
14:45:12 [nick]
zakim, code?
14:45:12 [Zakim]
the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick
14:45:15 [Zakim]
+John_Boyer
14:45:21 [Steven]
There's usually a transition call first
14:45:24 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
14:45:35 [wiecha]
zakim, [IBM] is wiecha
14:45:35 [Zakim]
+wiecha; got it
14:46:15 [ebruchez]
ebruchez has joined #forms
14:47:14 [Zakim]
+Nick_van_den_Bleeken
14:47:37 [John_Boyer]
should be able to get the PR transition meeting within a week, then the publication could happen within 1 to 3 business days after that, depending on when the transition call is
14:47:49 [Zakim]
+ebruchez
14:47:51 [nick]
ok
14:48:54 [klotz]
klotz has joined #forms
14:49:12 [Zakim]
+Leigh_Klotz
14:49:33 [John_Boyer]
Scribe: Leigh
14:49:38 [John_Boyer]
scribenick: klotz
14:50:55 [John_Boyer]
zakim, who is here?
14:50:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Boyer, wiecha, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, ebruchez, Leigh_Klotz
14:50:57 [Zakim]
On IRC I see klotz, ebruchez, wiecha, Zakim, RRSAgent, John_Boyer, Steven, nick, trackbot
14:51:22 [nick]
zakim, whi is here?
14:51:22 [Zakim]
sorry, nick, I do not understand your question
14:51:34 [nick]
zakim, who is is here?
14:51:34 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, nick.
14:52:15 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:52:15 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:52:17 [Zakim]
+Steven
14:53:34 [nick]
maybe we can break for a week, if we move the virtual day too
14:53:48 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
14:53:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Boyer, wiecha, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, ebruchez, Leigh_Klotz, Steven
14:53:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see klotz, ebruchez, wiecha, Zakim, RRSAgent, John_Boyer, Steven, nick, trackbot
14:55:03 [nick]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/32219/formsabsence2009/results
14:55:28 [nick]
for me Jully 9 fits better too
14:59:21 [nick]
maybe it is good to have a day further in the summer, then we can prepare some spec ready text
15:00:56 [John_Boyer]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/vFtF_2009_07_02
15:06:57 [klotz]
ACTION: John Boyer to move July 2nd vFtF meeting to September 3rd.
15:06:57 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John
15:06:57 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)
15:08:14 [klotz]
RESOLVED: We cancel the July 1st, 2009 teleconference.
15:09:19 [klotz]
RESOLVED: July 15, 2009 chair Charlie Wiecha, minutes Steven Pemberton.
15:09:41 [klotz]
RESOLVED: We cancal the July 22nd, 2009 teleconference.
15:09:44 [klotz]
s/cancal/cancel/
15:10:01 [John_Boyer]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2009Jun/0032.html
15:16:22 [klotz]
http://xformstest.org/2009-06-24.txt
15:19:52 [klotz]
ACTION: Nick van den Bleeken to respond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2009Jun/0032.html by explaining how works.
15:19:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-557 - Van den Bleeken to respond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2009Jun/0032.html by explaining how works. [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2009-07-01].
15:21:53 [Zakim]
-ebruchez
15:22:57 [Zakim]
+ebruchez
15:23:03 [Zakim]
-ebruchez
15:24:34 [John_Boyer]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Jun/0079.html
15:26:22 [nick]
<xforms:trigger>
15:26:22 [nick]
<xforms:label>Dispatch Alert Message</xforms:label>
15:26:22 [nick]
<xforms:alert ev:event="DOMActivate" ref="/msg"></xforms:alert>
15:26:22 [nick]
</xforms:trigger>
15:26:40 [Zakim]
+ebruchez
15:27:17 [nick]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/Test/XForms1.1/Edition1/Chapt08/8.2/8.2.4/8.2.4.a.xhtml
15:30:03 [Zakim]
-Leigh_Klotz
15:31:28 [nick]
Ubiquity passes all three, FF pases the 8.2.4.a
15:32:24 [nick]
EMC is also passing the three tests
15:32:41 [nick]
only Chiba is failing those three
15:33:06 [nick]
Chiba will probably pass the three tests if we change the tests
15:36:08 [John_Boyer]
ACTION: Charlie to change tests 8.2.4 a,b,c to use an input bound to a number type and ask user to enter "abc" then see alert
15:36:08 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Charlie
15:36:27 [John_Boyer]
Scribe: Charlie
15:36:31 [John_Boyer]
scribenick: wiecha
15:37:58 [wiecha]
Nick has responded to Joern that we'll fix these tests
15:38:26 [wiecha]
John: recent typos also committed...nick to rebuild zip once new changes are committed
15:38:43 [wiecha]
Topic: XForms Future Features
15:38:55 [wiecha]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Future_Goals
15:39:30 [nick]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2009Jun/0022.html
15:39:36 [wiecha]
John: skipping alternative schema until Leigh is available
15:40:13 [nick]
<xf:load show="embed" targetid="foo" resource="subforms/foo.xhtml#someId"> is the relevant markup
15:40:23 [ebruchez]
I have to leave now, talk to you tomorrow
15:41:30 [Zakim]
-ebruchez
15:41:50 [wiecha]
John: proposal calls for loading a complete form, including model and UI, and insert dynamically in for example a <div>
15:42:02 [wiecha]
...with the appropriate startup for the model etc
15:42:36 [wiecha]
...by extension we could also download simply the UI binding against the existing model, as for dynamic form controls in a repeat
15:43:05 [wiecha]
Nick: yes, but the init events are dispatched, so as implemented its more like a separate subform not interacting with the parent form
15:43:11 [wiecha]
...more like an iframe
15:43:25 [wiecha]
John: encapsulated makes it easier
15:43:59 [John_Boyer]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2009Jun/0023.html
15:44:37 [wiecha]
Charlie: how is initialization handled then>?
15:44:41 [wiecha]
Nick: via the server
15:45:09 [wiecha]
John: probably has some form of "under the covers" communication between models
15:45:16 [wiecha]
Charlie: perhaps just by actions
15:45:54 [wiecha]
Nick: main driver was performance problems with large model/schema
15:46:15 [wiecha]
John: yes, we deliver only one page at a time and use server to aggregate content
15:46:30 [wiecha]
...and only deliver those pages that are relevant to a given transaction
15:47:14 [wiecha]
...problem is schemas emerging in various industries are quite large/monolithic
15:47:37 [wiecha]
...we need to support interacting with them in subsets...not clear it requires a new feature for xforms if it's only one subform
15:47:49 [wiecha]
...perhaps so if there are multiple subforms
15:47:57 [wiecha]
...why work through the load action?
15:48:56 [wiecha]
Charlie: might want to combine this with our shiny-new data-bound switch
15:49:55 [wiecha]
Nick: submodel also submits directly to the parent document model
15:50:02 [wiecha]
...so starting again to look like components
15:50:06 [wiecha]
John: yup
15:50:37 [wiecha]
...sounds like the aggregate applications I've been talking about, but have assumed a bit more support server-side
15:50:58 [wiecha]
...e.g. marshal results of several pages together and let server decide which pages to deliver to client and when
15:51:27 [wiecha]
Nick: yes, that's what Joern is doing. Form lives on the server and we use load actions send certain parts to the client replacing parts of the main page
15:51:44 [wiecha]
Charlie: so this is really part of the aggregate application theme
15:52:16 [wiecha]
John: use of load does determine it's client-side processing
15:52:26 [wiecha]
...vs option for deferring to server logic
15:53:34 [wiecha]
Charlie: would like to consider this together with aggregate theme, e.g. is load right approach?
15:53:46 [wiecha]
John: also concerned about load action in general, not just in this case
15:53:56 [wiecha]
...possible overlap with submission
15:54:17 [wiecha]
...going forward whatever we do with load we should consider also for submission
15:54:56 [wiecha]
...why not be able to replace tabs, divs, etc with submission results?
15:55:18 [wiecha]
Nick: for me, use load for really simple case
15:55:34 [wiecha]
...without need for submission mechanism in the model...short hand notation in load
15:55:41 [wiecha]
John: yes, authoring convenience
15:56:05 [wiecha]
Nick: could extend send with these capabilities
15:56:23 [wiecha]
John: yes, but we should be careful in extending load so it actually remains simple
15:56:33 [wiecha]
...vs using submission for some of these features
15:56:42 [wiecha]
...rather than fully duplication all features of submission into load
15:57:18 [wiecha]
...so coming back to this proposal if we do something with load we should also look at supporting similar function in submission
15:57:46 [wiecha]
...Joern is talking about load replacing section of document with new content, which is full xform
15:58:07 [wiecha]
...this provides another driver for model element living in the body of the document
15:58:12 [wiecha]
...think we need this already
15:58:31 [wiecha]
...that's the only way to get xforms to run in a portal environment...multiple portlets with independent models
15:58:38 [wiecha]
....not at the head of the page
15:59:32 [markbirbeck]
markbirbeck has joined #forms
15:59:35 [wiecha]
Nick: yes, but events in the subform don't go to the root
15:59:46 [wiecha]
John: but the root is the body rather than the head
16:00:10 [wiecha]
...just pointing out there are other reasons for wanting the model not to be in the head
16:00:40 [wiecha]
...this proposal just provides another similar reason for doing so
16:01:25 [wiecha]
...in the portal case it's server-side code that shares data across portlets, more recent work allows components client-side wiring
16:01:40 [wiecha]
...rather than xforms submission between components
16:01:57 [wiecha]
Charlie: I'm still not convinced that Joern's case needs this level of separation
16:02:15 [wiecha]
...i.e. completely separate subforms
16:02:36 [wiecha]
Nick: he uses the subforms as components
16:02:48 [wiecha]
...have their own constraints, model, etc...submit data back to parent which does the aggregation
16:03:54 [wiecha]
John: difficult to componentize if the subform has both model and UI and the invoker has to split this into separate places in the receiving document
16:04:17 [wiecha]
Charlie: yes, perhaps the subform can be viewed as a submodel
16:04:29 [wiecha]
with controlled access to the parent
16:04:34 [wiecha]
vs being completely separate
16:05:33 [wiecha]
John: might allow for more declarative means to connect up the subform and parent
16:05:50 [wiecha]
...whether a server round trip is required depends on where the parent model resides, client or server
16:06:04 [wiecha]
...Joern seems to be placing the master model on the server
16:06:10 [ebruchez]
ebruchez has joined #forms
16:06:24 [wiecha]
...would want to see both model and submodel running on the logical client
16:07:05 [wiecha]
Nick: yes, he has a new type of submission that targets the parent form's model
16:07:16 [wiecha]
John: does that then update the parent form's model on the client"
16:07:20 [wiecha]
Nick: yes
16:07:54 [wiecha]
John: but the server just reflects whole state of the app
16:08:07 [wiecha]
...so the submission from the subform does what type of replacement?
16:08:29 [wiecha]
Nick: submits data to surrounding form subtree, replaces node
16:08:42 [wiecha]
John: then in response the master model runs a new load action to load next page?
16:08:48 [wiecha]
Nick: yes
16:10:19 [wiecha]
John: so the subform submits directly to the instance data of the master form
16:10:42 [wiecha]
...what type of replacement is done?
16:10:45 [wiecha]
...none?
16:12:08 [wiecha]
John: and then the master model runs a subsequent load action
16:12:11 [wiecha]
...for the next subform
16:14:03 [wiecha]
Nick: will look for some example markup fragments
16:14:28 [wiecha]
John: good to have a working example but we may wind up satisfying these requirements with alternative markup
16:15:27 [wiecha]
...need to have orchestration across multiple pages, not clear if it's xforms markup that will need to do this
16:15:33 [wiecha]
...first topic for tomorrow
16:15:37 [Steven]
bye
16:15:43 [Zakim]
-Steven
16:15:44 [Zakim]
-wiecha
16:15:46 [Zakim]
-John_Boyer
16:15:50 [Zakim]
-Nick_van_den_Bleeken
16:15:51 [Zakim]
HTML_Forms()10:45AM has ended
16:15:53 [Zakim]
Attendees were John_Boyer, wiecha, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, ebruchez, Leigh_Klotz, Steven
16:15:56 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:15:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
16:16:00 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, bye
16:16:00 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-forms-actions.rdf :
16:16:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: John Boyer to move July 2nd vFtF meeting to September 3rd. [1]
16:16:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-forms-irc#T15-06-57
16:16:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Nick van den Bleeken to respond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2009Jun/0032.html by explaining how works. [2]
16:16:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-forms-irc#T15-19-52
16:16:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Charlie to change tests 8.2.4 a,b,c to use an input bound to a number type and ask user to enter "abc" then see alert [3]
16:16:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-forms-irc#T15-36-08