IRC log of ws-ra on 2009-06-23
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 19:10:22 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/23-ws-ra-irc
- 19:10:24 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 19:10:24 [Zakim]
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- 19:10:26 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be WSRA
- 19:10:26 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see WS_WSRA()3:30PM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
- 19:10:27 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Web Services Resource Access Working Group Teleconference
- 19:10:27 [trackbot]
- Date: 23 June 2009
- 19:21:33 [Geoff]
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- test
- 19:28:00 [Zakim]
- WS_WSRA()3:30PM has now started
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- +??P3
- 19:28:06 [Bob]
- trackbot, start telecon
- 19:28:08 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 19:28:10 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be WSRA
- 19:28:10 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot, I see WS_WSRA()3:30PM already started
- 19:28:11 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Web Services Resource Access Working Group Teleconference
- 19:28:11 [trackbot]
- Date: 23 June 2009
- 19:28:31 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 19:28:38 [Zakim]
- +Bob_Freund
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- + +91.98.49.99.aaaa
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- -??P3
- 19:29:35 [dug]
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- 19:29:38 [Ram]
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- 19:30:01 [Bob]
- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Jun/
- 19:30:15 [Zakim]
- +Doug_Davis
- 19:30:19 [Zakim]
- +??P8
- 19:30:31 [Zakim]
- +Gilbert
- 19:30:53 [Bob]
- zakim, ??P8 is Paul
- 19:30:53 [Zakim]
- +Paul; got it
- 19:31:20 [Asir2]
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- 19:31:20 [Yves]
- Yves has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Jun/
- 19:31:26 [Vikas]
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- 19:31:47 [gpilz]
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- 19:32:01 [Bob]
- regrets+ Ashok
- 19:32:09 [Zakim]
- +Vikas
- 19:32:12 [Wu]
- Wu has joined #ws-ra
- 19:32:32 [Bob]
- zakim, [Micro is Asir
- 19:32:32 [Zakim]
- +Asir; got it
- 19:32:43 [Bob]
- zakim, Asir has Ram
- 19:32:43 [Zakim]
- +Ram; got it
- 19:32:52 [Bob]
- zakim, Asir has Geoff
- 19:32:52 [Zakim]
- +Geoff; got it
- 19:32:54 [Zakim]
- +Wu_Chou
- 19:33:04 [Zakim]
- +Yves
- 19:33:15 [Bob]
- Zakim, Wu has Li
- 19:33:15 [Zakim]
- +Li; got it
- 19:34:23 [Bob]
- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Jun/0050.html
- 19:34:38 [fmaciel]
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- 19:35:19 [Bob]
- scribe: Paul Nolan
- 19:35:28 [Bob]
- scribenick: Paul
- 19:36:16 [li]
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- 19:37:06 [Paul]
- Geoff: should we eximine vacation plans?
- 19:37:31 [Paul]
- Agenda agreed
- 19:38:10 [Paul]
- No objections to approving all 3 F2F minutes
- 19:38:26 [Paul]
- Minutes approved
- 19:39:25 [Paul]
- No objections to closing incoporated issues in snapshot
- 19:39:42 [Paul]
- TOPIC: new issues
- 19:39:54 [Paul]
- 7013
- 19:40:05 [Bob]
- http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7013
- 19:41:20 [Paul]
- issue accepted
- 19:41:27 [Paul]
- 7014
- 19:41:30 [Bob]
- http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7014
- 19:42:07 [Paul]
- issue accepted
- 19:42:50 [Paul]
- 7015
- 19:42:54 [Bob]
- http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7015
- 19:43:00 [gpilz]
- q+
- 19:43:31 [Sreed]
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- 19:45:12 [Paul]
- Geoff: associated with 6398 - wich makes identification of message ambiguous
- 19:46:04 [Bob]
- ack gpi
- 19:47:12 [Zakim]
- + +1.408.274.aabb
- 19:47:12 [dug]
- q+
- 19:47:22 [fmaciel]
- zakim, aabb is fmaciel
- 19:47:22 [Zakim]
- +fmaciel; got it
- 19:47:26 [Paul]
- Gil: Re formal objection. Does this issue address the issue?
- 19:47:55 [asir]
- q+
- 19:48:41 [Paul]
- Geoff: Objection remains if 7014 is not satisfactory
- 19:49:35 [Paul]
- Bob: Objections help air issues
- 19:50:34 [dug]
- q-
- 19:50:50 [asir]
- q-
- 19:51:00 [Paul]
- Gil: Feels objection was not originally raised as a technical issue
- 19:51:33 [Paul]
- issue accepted
- 19:51:54 [Paul]
- 7039 new issue
- 19:51:58 [Bob]
- http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7039
- 19:53:33 [Paul]
- Doug: EPR identifier. Problem is ref params can be mis-used
- 19:53:47 [Paul]
- .. 1) Remove
- 19:54:10 [Paul]
- .. 2) Clear explanation in spec
- 19:54:38 [li]
- q+
- 19:54:50 [Bob]
- ack li
- 19:56:19 [Paul]
- li: with no identifier how is sub-mgr able to identify message?
- 19:57:07 [Paul]
- issue accepted
- 19:58:18 [Paul]
- Geoff: Mode proposal has been circulated
- 19:58:41 [gpilz]
- http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/ra/wiki/Use_Cases_for_6401-6661
- 19:59:18 [Paul]
- Gil: 6401 use cases complete
- 20:00:21 [li]
- q+
- 20:00:50 [Bob]
- acl li
- 20:00:50 [Paul]
- Bob: next step on 6401 is to develop requirements
- 20:02:13 [Bob]
- ack li
- 20:03:19 [Paul]
- Gil: would prefer to produce some proposals
- 20:03:28 [Wu]
- q+
- 20:03:41 [dug]
- q+
- 20:03:57 [Bob]
- ack wu
- 20:04:42 [Paul]
- Wu: Agrees with Bob - we should gather more requirements
- 20:05:13 [Paul]
- Wu: will try to develop requirements
- 20:06:04 [Bob]
- Action: Wu and Team 6401, develop detailed requirements extracted from usecases ref 6401
- 20:06:04 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-77 - And Team 6401, develop detailed requirements extracted from usecases ref 6401 [on wu chou - due 2009-06-30].
- 20:06:24 [Bob]
- ack dug
- 20:07:31 [Paul]
- Doug: Could proposal owners explain how arrived at their proposals
- 20:07:45 [dug]
- ... in the wiki
- 20:07:53 [Geoff]
- q+
- 20:08:03 [Paul]
- TOPIC: issue-6925
- 20:08:05 [Bob]
- ack geoff
- 20:08:23 [gpilz]
- q+
- 20:08:28 [dug]
- q+
- 20:09:27 [Zakim]
- -Asir
- 20:09:36 [Paul]
- Geoff: Have examined how a literal resource can be defined.
- 20:09:38 [Yves]
- s/6925/6975/
- 20:09:39 [asir]
- sorry we got cut off
- 20:09:48 [asir]
- we are dialing back in
- 20:09:51 [Bob]
- resolution: All agreed
- 20:10:14 [asir]
- all agreed with geoff!
- 20:10:29 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 20:11:33 [Paul]
- Geoff: Can definition simply say that the service defines resource
- 20:11:44 [Bob]
- q?
- 20:11:49 [Bob]
- ack gp
- 20:13:03 [dug]
- darn - gil is taking my comment :-)
- 20:13:29 [Bob]
- ack dug
- 20:14:40 [Paul]
- Gil: "literal" must be defined in a broader way than service
- 20:14:57 [Geoff]
- q+
- 20:15:05 [Bob]
- ack geo
- 20:15:40 [dug]
- q+
- 20:16:40 [Bob]
- ack dug
- 20:16:42 [Paul]
- Doug: could schema be used
- 20:17:48 [asir]
- they are sever-specific, similar to HTTP
- 20:18:03 [asir]
- s/sever-specific/service-specific/
- 20:18:16 [Paul]
- Geoff: With schema how can client and service have different understanding of the resource definitions?
- 20:18:56 [gpilz]
- q+
- 20:19:33 [Paul]
- Doug: need a way for service to advertise what is valid XML for a create request
- 20:19:45 [Bob]
- ack gpi
- 20:20:24 [asir]
- well ...
- 20:20:26 [Paul]
- Gil: issue described by Doug sounds like 6401
- 20:20:53 [asir]
- it is upto resource owners to advertise resource descriptions
- 20:21:03 [asir]
- this is orthogonal to transfer
- 20:21:29 [dug]
- q+
- 20:21:39 [Bob]
- ack dug
- 20:22:25 [Paul]
- Doug: "server knows" approach. How does the client know?
- 20:22:41 [gpilz]
- what issue are we discussing?
- 20:22:50 [Bob]
- 3975
- 20:22:55 [Bob]
- 6975
- 20:22:57 [gpilz]
- q+
- 20:23:11 [asir]
- Transfer is a generic protocol
- 20:23:25 [dug]
- q+
- 20:23:28 [dug]
- "there no interop here" ?
- 20:23:40 [dug]
- s/there/there's/
- 20:23:48 [asir]
- s/interop/interop issue/
- 20:23:58 [dug]
- no I quoted him :-)
- 20:24:06 [dug]
- correctly
- 20:24:09 [asir]
- that is what i heard
- 20:24:11 [Bob]
- aggreed
- 20:24:20 [Paul]
- Geoff: server defines and advertises its resource definitions
- 20:24:30 [Bob]
- ack gpi
- 20:25:35 [Geoff]
- q+
- 20:25:59 [Paul]
- Gil: Sees the use case where client and service are tightly coupled. However there are services that are not data aware
- 20:26:56 [Bob]
- ack dug
- 20:27:11 [Paul]
- Gil: We could remove reference to literal resource rather than define it
- 20:28:14 [Paul]
- Doug: Removing literal resource definition means all data becomes opaque
- 20:29:20 [Paul]
- Doug: How does the client know definition of instructions available
- 20:29:41 [Bob]
- ack geo
- 20:30:31 [Asir2]
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- 20:31:09 [dug]
- q+
- 20:31:48 [Paul]
- Geoff: already feels that Transfer client needs additional information to function. A link between client and service must be defined.
- 20:31:51 [Bob]
- ack dug
- 20:32:41 [Zakim]
- - +91.98.49.99.aaaa
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- + +91.98.49.99.aacc
- 20:33:15 [Paul]
- Doug: feels there are cases when a client may be able to either send an instruction or some literal data. Client needs to know the difference.
- 20:35:27 [Paul]
- Geoff: a policy mechanism to help service sounds useful. However it should only be a hint not strict definition
- 20:36:08 [Paul]
- TOPIC: issue-6413
- 20:36:17 [dug]
- http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/ra/9/03/Issue-6413-2009-03-25.html
- 20:36:24 [Geoff]
- q+
- 20:37:29 [Bob]
- ack geo
- 20:37:38 [Paul]
- Geoff: can we take a higher level look at the issue
- 20:37:58 [Paul]
- .. what are the real goals?
- 20:38:50 [dug]
- q+
- 20:38:56 [Bob]
- ack dug
- 20:39:06 [Paul]
- Geoff: is it to force WS-MAN ti implement frag support?
- 20:39:30 [Paul]
- Doug: is it not about WS-MAN
- 20:40:38 [asir]
- Doug mentioned - clear direction to the industry (that includes WS-Man
- 20:41:15 [Paul]
- .. it is for interop and industry direction
- 20:41:47 [Geoff]
- q+
- 20:42:01 [Bob]
- ack geoff
- 20:42:23 [Bob]
- q+
- 20:42:32 [Yves]
- I wonder if the WG should work on a single spec instead of five, to avoid "proliferation"
- 20:42:45 [dug]
- yves +1
- 20:43:03 [dug]
- would help guarantee people make sure they all work together
- 20:43:04 [Paul]
- Bob: mentions that DaveS feels this issue may lead to multiple frag specs being developed
- 20:44:02 [dug]
- q+
- 20:44:11 [Paul]
- Geoff: If we define a good frag spec then it will be used and become adopted
- 20:45:11 [Paul]
- Geoff: we should not fore people to use a frag spec they do not want
- 20:45:25 [Bob]
- ack bob
- 20:45:48 [Paul]
- Bob: how does WS-RT relate to frag support in WS-MAN?
- 20:46:11 [Paul]
- Doug: very simplar
- 20:46:24 [asir]
- q+
- 20:46:50 [Paul]
- Doug: new proposal is different from WS-RT
- 20:47:41 [Paul]
- Doug: header / body main diff.
- 20:48:19 [Paul]
- Bob: if frag support were in WS-T what would be left in RT?
- 20:48:32 [Bob]
- ack asir
- 20:48:47 [asir]
- q+
- 20:48:50 [Paul]
- Doug: other things do remain
- 20:49:08 [Bob]
- ack dug
- 20:50:05 [Paul]
- Doug: aspect 1) framework for frag support. 2) definition of dialects which are open for new definitions.
- 20:50:36 [Bob]
- ack Yv
- 20:51:45 [Paul]
- Yves: do not need to support frags for WS-T, or vice versa.
- 20:51:52 [Geoff]
- agree with Yves
- 20:51:54 [Bob]
- ack asir
- 20:52:16 [Geoff]
- +
- 20:52:18 [Geoff]
- q+
- 20:53:06 [Bob]
- ack geo
- 20:53:18 [Paul]
- Asir: there are many differences between proposal and WS-MAN
- 20:53:21 [Yves]
- for the minutes, to get frags adopter you need a good spec and good implementations, more than sticking it in any other spec
- 20:53:28 [Yves]
- s/adopter/adopted
- 20:53:36 [asir]
- +1 to Yves
- 20:54:00 [asir]
- a good W3C spec that describes frag only is a clear direction to the industry (including WS-Man
- 20:54:16 [Bob]
- q+
- 20:54:54 [dug]
- would we ever say that?
- 20:55:13 [asir]
- s/good W3C/W3C/
- 20:55:16 [Paul]
- Geoff: composability is important. This is is made worse by proposal
- 20:55:29 [Geoff]
- q+
- 20:57:01 [Paul]
- Bob: is it felt a good independant frag spec would encourage adoption?
- 20:57:44 [Bob]
- ack bob
- 20:58:28 [Paul]
- Doug: a lot of spes build extensible support into main spec.
- 20:58:42 [Bob]
- ack geo
- 21:00:46 [Paul]
- Bob: is frag independant or part of WS-T?
- 21:00:50 [Zakim]
- -Vikas
- 21:00:54 [Zakim]
- -fmaciel
- 21:00:55 [Zakim]
- -Wu_Chou
- 21:00:57 [Zakim]
- - +91.98.49.99.aacc
- 21:00:57 [fmaciel]
- fmaciel has left #ws-ra
- 21:00:58 [Zakim]
- -Yves
- 21:00:58 [Zakim]
- -asir
- 21:01:00 [Zakim]
- -Doug_Davis
- 21:01:00 [Zakim]
- -Bob_Freund
- 21:01:04 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/23-ws-ra-minutes.html Yves
- 21:01:07 [Zakim]
- -Paul
- 21:01:21 [Zakim]
- -Gilbert
- 21:01:23 [Zakim]
- WS_WSRA()3:30PM has ended
- 21:01:24 [Zakim]
- Attendees were [Microsoft], Bob_Freund, +91.98.49.99.aaaa, Doug_Davis, Gilbert, Paul, Vikas, Ram, Geoff, Yves, Li, +1.408.274.aabb, fmaciel, +91.98.49.99.aacc
- 21:01:29 [gpilz]
- gpilz has left #ws-ra
- 21:36:05 [dug]
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- 21:36:27 [dug]
- yves - what's the URL to the transcript for today's call?
- 21:36:43 [dug]
- rssagent, where are we?
- 21:36:58 [dug]
- rssagent where am i ?
- 23:03:34 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #ws-ra