IRC log of awwsw on 2009-05-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:45:32 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #awwsw

12:45:32 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/05/12-awwsw-irc

12:45:44 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #awwsw

12:45:50 [jar]

zakim, this will be awwsw

12:45:50 [Zakim]

ok, jar; I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes

12:46:23 [mhausenblas]

mhausenblas has joined #awwsw

12:48:41 [mhausenblas]

hi there

12:50:12 [mhausenblas]

not sure if we have a fixed agenda (didn't see one) ...

12:51:51 [mhausenblas]

so FYI, after last telecon I took TimBL's http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont# ontology and turned it into a diagrams

12:52:01 [mhausenblas]

http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswGenOntDiagrams

12:52:10 [mhausenblas]

this may help us today

13:00:19 [Zakim]

TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has now started

13:00:20 [Zakim]

+ +1.781.643.aaaa

13:00:40 [jar]

hi.

13:01:14 [Zakim]

+mhausenblas

13:01:16 [Zakim]

-mhausenblas

13:01:16 [Zakim]

+mhausenblas

13:01:36 [jar]

zakim, +1.781 is jar

13:01:36 [Zakim]

+jar; got it

13:01:40 [Zakim]

+ +1.512.342.aabb

13:02:07 [mhausenblas]

Zakim, aabb is David

13:02:07 [Zakim]

+David; got it

13:05:33 [Zakim]

+Alan

13:05:58 [alanr]

alanr has joined #awwsw

13:06:07 [alanr]

zakim, who is here?

13:06:07 [Zakim]

On the phone I see jar, mhausenblas, David, Alan

13:06:08 [Zakim]

On IRC I see alanr, mhausenblas, Zakim, RRSAgent, jar, trackbot

13:07:12 [mhausenblas]

http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswGenOntDiagrams

13:07:24 [mhausenblas]

http://www.w3.org/2006/gen/ont#

13:07:45 [Zakim]

+TimBL

13:10:22 [dbooth]

dbooth has joined #awwsw

13:10:34 [dbooth]

rrsagent, where am i?

13:10:34 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2009/05/12-awwsw-irc#T13-10-34

13:10:54 [dbooth]

rrsagent, make logs public

13:11:59 [jar]

What is an example of an IR that is not time generic?

13:12:19 [jar]

Are time generic and time specific mutually exclusive?

13:12:53 [jar]

TimBL: Let's try where they're disjoint.

13:15:42 [jar]

Michael: How about if we look for an example of each of the classes?

13:15:44 [timbl]

timbl has joined #awwsw

13:16:10 [timbl]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2009May/0071.html is time-specific

13:17:20 [timbl]

http://www.w3.org/TR/ is time-generic

13:18:44 [jar]

time-specific = has same representations at all times?

13:20:05 [dbooth]

forall time t1, t2 and any other request inputs i1, i2, f(t1, i1)=f(t2, i2).

13:20:44 [jar]

A resource can be updated, but if it's time specific, then the update doesn't lead to changes in the representations?

13:20:49 [jar]

can't?

13:21:07 [dbooth]

hmm, the rule that I just gave also fixes it over other inputs. Not sure that was the intent.

13:21:33 [mhausenblas]

q+

13:21:57 [dbooth]

Okay, lemme try again: forall time t1, t2 and for any input i, f(t1, i) = f(t2, i).

13:22:06 [mhausenblas]

wondering if the TAG finding http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/alternatives-discovery.html is of any help (and/or has been taken into account so far)

13:22:10 [jar]

if time specific, then when i do an http operation, then i don't need to redo a GET, because it's not changing

13:22:21 [jar]

(that was me recording TimBL)

13:22:48 [jar]

ack next

13:22:48 [mhausenblas]

ack me

13:25:39 [timbl]

It does highliht the ,medium as a dimension.

13:25:52 [timbl]

(print, laptop, mobile, screen etc)

13:27:05 [timbl]

mh, the arrows in the diagram at the bottom of the finding above are links, not relationships.

13:27:29 [timbl]

into design issues

13:28:19 [alanr]

watch out: two spellings (capitalization) of [tT]imeSpecificResource and [cC]ontentTypeSpecificResource

13:28:45 [jar]

David, your "for all time..." needs to be qualified: the equation need only hold when both are defined.

13:28:52 [timbl]

yes, property and class

13:30:25 [jar]

TimBL: a GR is *not* determined solely by its representations

13:30:29 [dbooth]

jar, when both what are defined?

13:30:34 [alanr]

http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswGenOntDiagrams?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=genont-classtree.png

13:30:42 [alanr]

just the class/subclass relations

13:30:46 [jar]

both f(t1, i) and f(t2, i)

13:31:06 [dbooth]

hmm, interesting point.

13:31:52 [jar]

can the set of all r such that r is a representation of g (for some g) be infinite?

13:32:04 [jar]

TimBL: Can be.

13:32:44 [jar]

TimBL: When we measure it via HTTP, we can only make a finite number of measurements.

13:34:03 [timbl]

E.g my blog can contain an ad which has a random integer generated at run time which is unbounded.

13:34:56 [timbl]

One deosn't normally

13:37:03 [jar]

There is a relationship between the server and the generic resource

13:37:31 [dbooth]

jar; What do I learn about the resource by doing a GET?

13:37:41 [dbooth]

dbooth: You learn what one of its representations is.

13:38:18 [jar]

What do I learn about a generic resource by doing a GET?

13:38:28 [jar]

I learn that the returned entity is a rep of the resource, right?

13:39:26 [timbl]

yes

13:41:21 [jar]

Trust is orthogonal to authority, right?

13:41:28 [timbl]

if the returns status was 200

13:41:58 [dbooth]

q+ to answer jonathan's question: By doing a GET on a URI and getting a 200 result, you learn: (1) that the URI identifies an IR; and (2) you learn one of its representations.

13:42:55 [jar]

TimBL: Happy to not talk about authority issues just now

13:42:56 [jar]

q?

13:44:14 [jar]

TimBL: You seem to think the ontology as if it exists in isolation

13:44:38 [jar]

could someone scribe?

13:45:36 [dbooth]

timbl: by sticking RDF in the metadata about a document (indicating that the resource is time-specific IR) then I know that there is no need to fetch it again later.

13:45:41 [dbooth]

(paraphrased)

13:46:33 [jar]

The boundary around an ontology is arbitrary

13:46:38 [jar]

(that was TimBL)

13:46:59 [jar]

Sorry dbooth. you were on the q

13:47:28 [jar]

TimBL: The ontologies aren't in a stack

13:49:02 [dbooth]

Here's a little more I wrote for IRC that pertains to earlier discussion:

13:49:18 [dbooth]

I have treated ftrr:IR as a function of two inputs (Time x Request), but if desired we could break the Request input into separate inputs such as: Language, ContentType, Client, OtherRequestInput.

13:49:25 [dbooth]

Then each *-specific resource would just be holding the representations constant across different values of that input. So a language-specific resource would be:

13:49:31 [dbooth]

forall Language l1, l1, and any Time t and ContentType ct and Client c and OtherRequestInput o: f(t, l1, ct, c, o) = f(t, l2, ct, c, o).

13:49:40 [jar]

bye

13:49:45 [Zakim]

-David

13:52:51 [jar]

jar: Does there exist a GR g such that there is no R with R a representation of g (at any time)

13:52:52 [jar]

?

13:53:38 [jar]

(In Roy's model, the answer is yes.)

13:55:42 [jar]

TimBL: Boundary case we don't care about.

13:56:12 [jar]

E.g. something you can PUT or POST to, but you never get a 200

13:57:02 [jar]

michael: Not sure that's a border case

13:59:31 [jar]

I get confused because we go back and forth between ontology and protocol

14:00:02 [jar]

TimBL: It would be mathematically useful to have a GR that no reps.

14:00:53 [jar]

e.g. no one has written one yet.

14:01:11 [timbl]

Not practically useful

14:01:54 [jar]

Could you define G = the top resource? (every representation is a rep of G?)

14:02:02 [jar]

TimBL: Yes, but not useful

14:02:20 [jar]

So utility is not a requirement of a GR.

14:02:47 [jar]

TimBL: Bad ideas are not outlawed by the ontology

14:03:23 [jar]

TimBL: but in webarch, we say that consistency is a good idea [?]

14:03:36 [jar]

can't we let the market decide?

14:04:06 [jar]

TimBL: society will hold you to what you serve according to what it demands

14:04:14 [timbl]

~

14:05:09 [mhausenblas]

Michael will take care of organising the next telecon on 26 May

14:05:27 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

14:05:27 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/12-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas

14:05:37 [alanr]

Here is a class tree with labels that describe how I understand what the intent is: http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswGenOntDiagrams?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=genont-different-labels.png

14:05:48 [mhausenblas]

rrsagent, make logs public

14:06:44 [mhausenblas]

[adjourned]

14:06:53 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

14:06:53 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/12-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas

14:07:01 [Zakim]

-TimBL

14:07:01 [mhausenblas]

Zakim, bye

14:07:01 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #awwsw

14:07:02 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.781.643.aaaa, mhausenblas, jar, +1.512.342.aabb, David, Alan, TimBL

14:07:15 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

14:07:15 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/05/12-awwsw-minutes.html mhausenblas

14:07:28 [mhausenblas]

rrsagent, bye

14:07:28 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items