17:38:27 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:38:27 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-irc 17:39:01 rrsagent, set logs public 17:39:14 zakim. this will be wai_u 17:39:23 zakim, this will be wai_u 17:39:23 ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 21 minutes 17:42:26 Title: UAWG telecon 17:43:58 Chair: Jim Allan 17:44:22 regrets: Judy, Jan, Alan 17:44:42 Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? 17:45:15 Agenda+ discussion of accessibility conflicts in user agents, Cynthia Shelly, Microsoft Senior Accessibility Strategist 17:45:33 Agenda+ Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/ 17:45:46 jeanne has joined #ua 17:46:36 zakim, this will be WAI-UA 17:46:36 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, jeanne 17:46:45 zakim, this will be WAI_UA 17:46:45 ok, jeanne; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 14 minutes 17:46:59 zakim, ping me in 10 minutes 17:46:59 ok, jeanne 17:47:48 agenda+ 'Alert' proposal - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0035.html 17:48:10 rrsagent, make logs public 17:48:18 rrsagent, make minutes 17:48:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne 17:51:56 KFord has joined #ua 17:53:00 trackbot, start meeting 17:53:02 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:53:04 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 17:53:05 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes 17:53:05 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 17:53:05 Date: 26 February 2009 17:53:48 Chair: Jim Allan 17:55:18 Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? 17:56:50 regrets+ DavidP, JanR 17:56:58 mhakkinen has joined #ua 17:56:59 jeanne, you asked to be pinged at this time 17:57:02 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:57:09 +AllanJ 17:57:19 Henny has joined #ua 17:57:27 +[Microsoft] 17:57:37 i am on another call for about 10 minutes. i can pick up scribing once i join, if needed. 17:57:57 zakim, code? 17:57:57 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne 17:58:05 +Jeanne 17:58:27 zakim, [Micr is kford 17:58:27 +kford; got it 17:58:57 + +2 17:59:24 zakim, +2 is Henny 17:59:24 +Henny; got it 18:01:00 sharper has joined #ua 18:01:47 zakim, agenda ? 18:01:47 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 18:01:48 1. Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? [from AllanJ] 18:01:51 2. discussion of accessibility conflicts in user agents, Cynthia Shelly, Microsoft Senior Accessibility Strategist [from AllanJ] 18:01:54 3. Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/ [from AllanJ] 18:01:55 4. 'Alert' proposal - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0035.html [from AllanJ] 18:01:58 5. Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? [from KFord] 18:02:06 +??P5 18:02:13 zakim, drop item 5 18:02:13 agendum 5, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, dropped 18:02:19 zakim, ??P5 is sharper 18:02:19 +sharper; got it 18:03:54 +??P6 18:04:55 zakim, who is here? 18:04:55 On the phone I see AllanJ, kford, Jeanne, Henny, sharper, ??P6 18:04:56 On IRC I see sharper, Henny, mhakkinen, KFord, jeanne, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, trackbot 18:04:57 zakim take up agenda 1 18:05:58 zakim, ??P6 is Cynthia_Shelly(visiting) 18:05:58 +Cynthia_Shelly(visiting); got it 18:07:02 zakim, close this item 18:07:02 agendum 1 closed 18:07:03 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:07:05 2. discussion of accessibility conflicts in user agents, Cynthia Shelly, Microsoft Senior Accessibility Strategist [from AllanJ] 18:07:48 cyns has joined #ua 18:08:01 zakim, take up next item 18:08:01 agendum 2. "discussion of accessibility conflicts in user agents, Cynthia Shelly, Microsoft Senior Accessibility Strategist" taken up [from AllanJ] 18:08:03 agenda+ WAI ARIA Last Call 18:08:44 CS talking about CSS outline issue. One option is none, which turns off outlines. 18:08:55 IE8 supports this as does FF. 18:09:05 It appears to be an issue in the CSS spec. 18:09:11 +Mark_Hakkinen 18:09:41 This has the potential to cause accessibility conflicts. 18:09:58 CS: What does your group think. 18:11:48 CS: Another reason this concerns me is that this interferes with an OS accessibility featurs, namely focus rects. 18:12:00 s/featurs/features 18:12:31 JA: I went to wcag 2 and they have a success criteria around this at level AA. They don't necessarily say don't turn this off. 18:12:46 q+ 18:13:30 JA: I think there are a lot of options, like setting default font and such. Maybe even creating your own CSS. 18:13:31 q+ 18:13:53 q? 18:14:00 ack kford 18:14:18 KF: user can write css, but beyond abilities of most users 18:15:51 ...in today's user agents. Should the UA do more. if the group can identify that something will degrade a users experience 18:16:20 ack cy 18:16:32 ...then the UA can warn, like a sign by construction on a sidewalk 18:17:31 q+ to recommend an SC or technique to add a preference to always display focus. 18:17:33 q+ 18:19:04 q+ 18:19:14 q+ to discuss insulating users from authors 18:19:17 q+ 18:20:18 KF: other user configurable options, like alternative content stack 18:20:44 ...this is similar. user should indicate a preference to always display focus 18:20:57 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/#gl-interaction-highlight 18:20:58 ...UA must do what is has to do to make user happy 18:21:07 ...User in control 18:21:11 q+ 18:21:21 ack jeanne 18:21:21 jeanne, you wanted to recommend an SC or technique to add a preference to always display focus. and to 18:21:25 ack Kford 18:21:25 ack kelly 18:21:32 ack mark 18:21:37 ack jim 18:21:47 ack mh 18:21:52 ack ja 18:22:51 q+ 18:23:00 ack cy 18:23:03 ack allanj 18:23:03 AllanJ, you wanted to discuss insulating users from authors 18:23:18 ack allan 18:23:22 ack cyn 18:25:27 q+ there are many things that authors can do that affect accessibility 18:25:37 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/#gl-interaction-highlight 18:26:14 ...we don't know them all. hard to prevent all. 18:26:51 3.5.1 Highlighted items covers this. 18:27:39 CS: recommends defining content focus carefully. PF and HTML5 are working on this as part of ARIA. 18:28:06 q+ 18:28:36 ack jea 18:28:41 ack mh 18:29:01 scripting focus vs UA focus 18:29:42 large black holes in javascript and items taken out of the tab order 18:31:43 jeanne i can start scribing. 18:32:34 default settins should be accessible. 18:32:37 +1 on the default settings. 18:33:04 s/default settins should be accessible. /CS:default settings should be accessible. 18:34:55 CS: outline supports everything border supports except none 18:36:49 Thanks Cynthia. Appreciate the visit. 18:36:54 ja: have we met all of CS's issues? 18:37:00 CS: yes 18:38:14 ja: focus in scripts. 3.5.1 add issue of focus in scripts. 18:39:02 action: SH to write proposal for 'default settings of UA should be accessible' need examples? 18:39:03 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH 18:39:03 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes) 18:39:26 action: SHarper to write proposal for 'default settings of UA should be accessible' need examples? 18:39:27 Created ACTION-149 - to write proposal for 'default settings of UA should be accessible' need examples? [on Simon Harper - due 2009-03-05]. 18:41:04 ja: do we need to add something relative to focus and scripts? 18:41:15 mh: yes, a real problem 18:41:25 kford: yes 18:41:46 ja: mark to do an action on this 18:42:47 action: mhakkinen to write a proposal for scripting and focus, for 3.5.1 18:42:47 Sorry, couldn't find user - mhakkinen 18:43:01 action: mh to write a proposal for scripting and focus, for 3.5.1 18:43:01 Created ACTION-150 - Write a proposal for scripting and focus, for 3.5.1 [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2009-03-05]. 18:43:50 sh: we have a term called override. does this have some relation to default settings? 18:44:14 ja: default settings should be as accessible as possible, accessible out of the box 18:45:39 zakim, close this item 18:45:39 agendum 2 closed 18:45:40 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:45:41 3. Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/ [from AllanJ] 18:46:09 zakim, take up next 18:46:09 agendum 3. "Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/" taken up [from AllanJ] 18:46:10 I was on Skype, sorry about that. 18:46:12 zakim, open item 3 18:46:12 agendum 3. "Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/" taken up [from AllanJ] 18:47:10 ja: first item is to review status section of the document. try to wrap up in time for CSUN 18:49:44 js: make sure that we've covered big ones in status. if something was felt to be not on the right track, call it out and ask for feedback. put the status out and make sure these are the ones we have to address. 18:51:02 hs: better understanding now, re my original comments 18:52:18 kf: group seeks feedback from ua manufacturers as to whether these guidelines can be used to develop ua's. Is all needed information there? 18:52:42 hs: good question. is more supporting documentation needed to support the guidelines? 18:53:35 kf: another question to ask. Today using many different web browsers. do these guidelines capture the need of the wide range of platforms in which ua's exist today 18:53:55 hs: we should include. 18:54:44 MH: any devices (wii, kindle, etc) all have UAs in them. this point is not made clearly enough 18:55:36 kf: two more questions, how do we go forward? do i need to write up? 18:56:08 js: will add them to the status, based on what is in minutes. can also email them to list. 18:57:34 ja: publishing the week of the 12th. 18:58:08 changes also harmonized with ATAG 20 Guideline 1 also expanded the definition to include web applications as user agents. 18:58:16 js: arrive at csun with a handout containing a link to the document to be reviewed. 18:58:47 zakim, close this item 18:58:47 agendum 3 closed 18:58:48 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:58:50 4. 'Alert' proposal - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0035.html [from AllanJ] 18:58:54 ja: any other comments, send to jeanne. 18:59:04 zakim, take up item 3 18:59:04 agendum 3. "Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/" taken up [from AllanJ] 18:59:28 ja: glossary: document object model 18:59:38 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/results 19:00:47 proposed: The internal representation of data in the source content by a non-Web-based authoring tool or user agent. The document object may form part of a platform accessibility architecture that enables communication with assistive technologies. 19:00:52 ja: take out sentence on authoring tool based on comments. 19:01:32 proposed: The internal representation of data in the source content by a non-Web-based user agent. The document object may form part of a platform accessibility architecture that enables communication with assistive technologies. 19:02:02 ja: what about david's proposal? 19:03:48 KFord has joined #ua 19:03:55 ja: both david and simon have valid points. no techniques for this. should put in "understanding uaag" doc 19:04:22 js: appropriate 19:04:37 does it hurt anything if we leave the reference to AT in the definition 19:05:12 kford: making definition too complicated. don't need to tie it into AT. it is what it is. 19:05:33 ja: we've explained enough in the programmatic access. 19:05:45 kf: ua developers will know what DOM is 19:06:18 proposed: The internal representation of data in the source content by a non-Web-based user agent. 19:06:21 kf: made clear in the meat of the document 19:06:35 =1 19:06:39 +1 19:07:42 mh: is there an alernative to non-web based ua? 19:07:51 ja: others have thoughts? 19:08:20 sh: are we saying that a web-based ua is not present on the user's platform 19:08:26 KFord has joined #ua 19:09:21 ja: carry over from atag, they have web-based and non-web-based authoring tools. 19:10:04 ja: will take an action to rewrite this. 19:11:57 action: JA to write proposal about removing non-web-based, default to be UA , if web-based it will be specifically named 19:11:57 Created ACTION-151 - Write proposal about removing non-web-based, default to be UA , if web-based it will be specifically named [on Jim Allan - due 2009-03-05]. 19:12:21 SH: do you have to have a DOM 19:12:42 MH: you will eventually create one 19:12:54 KF: but might call it something else 19:13:07 > proposed: The internal representation of data in the source content by a user agent. 19:13:42 ja: any objections? 19:13:48 none 19:14:20 action: JS to update glossary with the new definition of Document Object. 19:14:20 Created ACTION-152 - Update glossary with the new definition of Document Object. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-05]. 19:14:37 next document character set: all agree, done. 19:15:20 action: JS to update glossary with new definition of document character set. 19:15:20 Created ACTION-153 - Update glossary with new definition of document character set. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-05]. 19:15:24 ja: next is document source, text source. 5 accept, 1 change, 2 more disc 19:17:24 kf: reading this, don't understand what the last sentence is for. Why text source? 19:17:34 js: we use both in the document. 19:19:05 ja: Text the user agent renders upon user request to view the source of specific viewport content (i.e. selected content, frame, page). 19:20:08 ja: any objections to using new short def? 19:20:24 resolved: Text the user agent renders upon user request to view the source of specific viewport content (i.e. selected content, frame, page). 19:20:36 action: JS to update glossary with new definition of Document Source. 19:20:36 Created ACTION-154 - Update glossary with new definition of Document Source. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-05]. 19:21:51 sh: w3c DOM group definition of DOM. 19:21:57 http://www.w3.org/DOM/#what 19:22:15 ja: any objection to using DOM groups definition? 19:23:20 resolved: use DOM groups defintion of document object model. "The Document Object Model is a platform- and language-neutral interface that will allow programs and scripts to dynamically access and update the content, structure and style of documents. The document can be further processed and the results of that processing can be incorporated back into the presented page. This is an overview of DOM-related materials here at W3C and around the web." 19:24:12 ja: next is documentation. 7 accepts. one question. 19:25:24 add 'all forms must be accessible or available in accessible alternative formats'? 19:27:02 ja: alternative formats is redundant. already taken care of. add in mark's text for installation, ahead of CD ROM. 19:27:14 resolved: Any information that supports the use of a user agent. This information may be found, for example, in manuals, installation instructions, the help system, and tutorials. Documentation may be distributed (e.g., as files installed as part of the installation, some parts may be delivered on CD-ROM, others on the Web). See guideline 5.3 for information about documentation requirements. 19:27:46 ja: next is element or element type. 19:29:50 action: JS to update glossary with definition of Documentation. 19:29:51 Created ACTION-155 - Update glossary with definition of Documentation. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-05]. 19:31:03 xhtnl def of element: An element is a document structuring unit declared in the DTD. The element's content model is defined in the DTD, and additional semantics may be defined in the prose description of the element. 19:32:45 -Cynthia_Shelly(visiting) 19:32:46 -kford 19:32:55 continue discussion of element next week 19:33:18 zakim, who is here? 19:33:19 On the phone I see AllanJ, Jeanne, Henny, sharper, Mark_Hakkinen 19:33:20 On IRC I see KFord, cyns, sharper, Henny, mhakkinen, jeanne, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, trackbot 19:33:33 -sharper 19:33:35 jeanne will extend the current survey for next week, and will remove questions that we have already resolved. 19:34:00 -Henny 19:34:01 ja: will take up Henny's issue next week. 19:34:22 rrsagent, make minutes 19:34:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne 19:36:33 present+ Jim_Allan, Henny_Swan, Kelly_Ford, Mark_Hakkinen, Simon_Harper, Jeanne_Spellman, Cynthia_Shelly_(visiting) 19:37:16 -Mark_Hakkinen 19:37:25 mhakkinen has left #ua 19:46:29 Henny has left #ua 19:50:59 -AllanJ 19:56:00 disconnecting the lone participant, Jeanne, in WAI_UAWG()1:00PM 19:56:01 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 19:56:04 Attendees were AllanJ, [Microsoft], Jeanne, kford, Henny, sharper, Cynthia_Shelly(visiting), Mark_Hakkinen 20:12:27 rssagent, make minutes 20:12:43 rrsagent, make minutes 20:12:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-ua-minutes.html jeanne