See also: IRC log
RS: complete?
<clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/353
s/Action 553/353
JC: not had time to work on this
RS: when put out for review, MC
MC: monday
RS: ok
... JC, can you get yours in on monday
... monday will close these out and see if sufficiently
addressed
JC: some already approved and can be added to draft
RS: editorial - aria-labelledby instead of aria-label
JC: ready for monday
RS: done?
JC: no
RS: have wording for it, right?
JC: yes
RS: hold 348 until monday
RS: "Issue 279 Double-check attribute permission and keyboard navigation in
SVG 1.2T vs. what ARIA requires "
RS: not an ARIA 1.0 issue, but SVG issue
MC: spec cross-review issue
GJR: http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/SVG
... can assume action item
RS: focus is addressed
MC: change product to spec reviews
http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/SVG
RS: reassigning to GJR;
associated product now "spec reviews"
... This does not seem like an ARIA 1.0 issue but rather an SVG
issue as these are host language related. tabindex became an
HTML 5 extension and not ARIA 1.0.
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/36
RS: don't recommend close per se, but do we meet this as far as LC goes
MC: in pretty good shape for LC;
this is testing-specific -- need to work on getting tests
up
... DTD is complete and accurate; added schema implementation
that Shane McCarron prepared
RS: in spec?
MC: in spec currently as
dependencies
... XHTML WG will make available as DTD and schemas in their
namespace
RS: great -- glad that they are
in appendix
... based on HTML4?
MC: XHTML 1.1 modules
GJR: correct
RS: change to tabindex?
MC: cede to james
JC: implicit attribute values
that differ from default attribute values
... haspopup value=true -- some live regions have their own
default values -- does this adversely affect the spec?
... would like to be more explicit than current verbiage in
spec
... implicit attribute values for each role need to be clearly
machine parseable
... will put in pointer
<jcraig> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/102
RS: how adversely impact spec?
JC: something that needs to be an issue as long as developing schema
RS: Cooper, do we need to do something in DTD to say haspopup should be default?
MC: can't express in DTD
... might be possible in schema -- shane can help
... good point and good idea, but not sure how complicated task
will be
JC: table of roles and their descriptions?
MC: add row that says "overrides default value of state" or something similar
JC: yes, with links
MC: don't object to approach -- want to work with JC on structure so can key off for generation
<jcraig> Implicit Values: aria-live="assertive", aria-foo="bar"
MC: schema - hesitant to get done by monday -- non-normative, so doesn't need to be held to monday deadline -- not normative change so can effect later
JC: will propose spec change for monday
<scribe> ACTION: Cooper - investigate modification of schema to address default values for particular roles [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/06-pf-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-358 - - investigate modification of schema to address default values for particular roles [on Michael Cooper - due 2009-02-13].
RS: want assertive - thought live was "polite" by default
MC: certain cases where default is different from normal default
<clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#alert
<jcraig> Implicit values specific to a role are normative, so they should be listed in the characteristics table (and in RDF/DTD, etc)
<jcraig> Examples include alert[1], which has an implicit aria-live value of assertive, and combobox[2] which has an implicit aria-haspopup value of true. Since these override the default value for that property, they should be listed in the characteristics tables (and also in a machine-readable format).
<jcraig> 1. http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#alert
<jcraig> 2. http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#combobox
JC: something that should be in characteristics table
RS: assumed default value for
aria-live -- ok
... would be part of normative spec, right?
MC: editorial, not normative change
JC: already part of normative spec
RS: let us review them on monday
MC: editorial, but can look at it on monday
<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to add implicit values to spec (in characteristics tables per role) See ISSUE-102 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/06-pf-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-359 - Add implicit values to spec (in characteristics tables per role) See ISSUE-102 [on James Craig - due 2009-02-13].
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2009JanMar/0253.html
<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to ask if the dtd includes the implicit attrs per role. i filed an issue earlier this week.
<MichaelC> ACTION: Cooper to research if implicit attr values can be expressed in Schema [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/06-pf-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-360 - Research if implicit attr values can be expressed in Schema [on Michael Cooper - due 2009-02-13].
<davidb> http://www.w3schools.com/jsref/jsref_onchange.asp
GJR: can either leave to editors or can rewrite it as proposal
RS: will work on it over the weekend
<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to answer the question about tabindex: the DTD adds it, the schema doesn't yet (overlooked) but I made a note to fix that
MC: tabindex - DTD module adds tabindex to all elements in HTML; schema currently doesn't -- oversight that will be fixed today
RS: can we close issue?
... think GJR addressed it, have to wordsmith a bit
<clown> +1 to close issue as long as action remains.
JS: [can't hear]
<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say Re: GJR's concern about maxlength: What if we added an ARIA 2 issue to add a maxlength value for aria-invalid. The spec already states "For future
GJR: need an ARIA 2.0 collection bin
close ISSUE-10
<trackbot> ISSUE-10 Shortcuts that submit a transaction on field action can violate "user must remain in command of dialog" closed
<jcraig> From spec: "For future expansion, the aria-invalid attribute is an enumerated type. Any value not recognized in the list of allowed values MUST be treated as if the value true had been provided. If the attribute is not present, or its value is false, or its value is an empty string, the default value of false applies."
RESOLUTION: Issue 10 closed
MC: need to create issue to expand type for valid
RS: MC, please open ARIA 2.0 issue
JC: add one for autosubmit, as
well?
... on a select control with autosubmit, allow user to examine
before triggering onChange event
RS: add to ARIA 2.0 issue list
RS: didn't get to it
RS: pinged JRG about this today
RS: how to handle channel in all
situations; channel been removed and so has value so don't
think need 3x3 matrix
... for ARIA 2.0 need to fine-tune live regions
... propose we close this issue
<janina> +1
plus 1
<richardschwerdtfe> +1
MC: plus 1
<clown> +`
<jcraig> +1
<clown> +1
RESOLUTION: live regions will be fine-tuned in ARIA 2.0; this closes this issue for now
RS: is tony on the call?
... anyone check ie8 behavior with CSS selector - does styling
get refreshed automatically
JC: across-the-board major browser problem
RS: not an issue for FireFox
JC: on the fly change, right?
RS: if change attribute on element where CSS selector for it, reflects change in Mozilla but not IE8
<davidb> hi 1 sec
JC: work-around in browsers is to just toggle a class name
RS: action was for tony to come
back with report
... if david thinks fixed, ok -- don't like workarounds, should
be automatic
<davidb> skype hung
RS: does impact best
practices
... if styling to aria properties, have to comment on this in
BPG
MC: have a bit of leeway
RS: davidb, have you looked into this?
MC: not a LC issue
<jcraig> [aria-checked="true"]:before { background-image: url(checked.gif); }
<jcraig> Note: At the time of this writing, this CSS example, while technically correct, will not redraw styles properly in some browsers if the attribute's value is changed dynamically. It may be necessary to toggle a classname, or otherwise to force the browser to redraw the styles properly.
2 MINUTES TO TOP OF HOUR
RS: 2 hour meeting
MC: zakim only set up for one hour -- can all hang up and restart zakim if someone can't get in
RS: move away from issue until
david gets back on
... does refresh of styling change automatically when CSS
selectors used in IE8
DB: haven't confirmed it is fixed yet
RS: will wait for report back from Tony Ross
RS: in BPG -- steps for defining:
require labelling of region landmarks
... could add step between 4 and 5 - if regional landmark is an
application, reference as application using aria-describedby
property
... reasonable step?
... prose describing application, can set relationship using
aria-describedby
JC: what is special about this?
RS: aaron wanted to provide
guidance to app developers
... provide additional guidance?
... if not, can close issue
JC: seems redundant
... applies to anything, not just applications
GJR: agree with JC
MC: neutral, but point of BPG is to point out what think author should do -- if don't think authors will use describedby, worth pointing out, but i could go either way
RS: do we want to close issue 64 without any change to BPG?
<davidb> -1
<jcraig> neutral
<clown> -0.5
RS: +/- 1
DB: don't have verbiage in front of me; if aaron reporting problem, probably getting confused people
<scribe> ACTION: RichS - add a step in section 3.2.6.1 to address assigning a describedby reference to protect prose in an application [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/06-pf-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - RichS
<scribe> ACTION: Rich - add a step in section 3.2.6.1 to address assigning a describedby reference to protect prose in an application [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/06-pf-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-361 - - add a step in section 3.2.6.1 to address assigning a describedby reference to protect prose in an application [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2009-02-13].
RS: close issue 64?
DB: as long as have example
RS: redundant, but important
RESOLUTION: close issue 64 per action 361
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/47
RS: not addressed; BP issue - think can close issue 47, but associated action still outstanding
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/130
<scribe> ACTION: 130 to Discuss Write Permission in GOK Context [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/06-pf-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 130
www.gok.ca
GOK = GNOME On-Screen Keyboard (http://www.gok.ca)
DB: apps that change in response to ARIA attributes, need an event to say attribute change, so active descendant so should update right child
RS: confused -- IE and FF have
DOMAttributeModify that ocurs
... implementor's guide issue
DB: right
... encourage people to write apps that respond to these
events?
RS: write permission -- in GOK context, if have an attribute that has an ascending or descending, OSK should provide ascending/descending button to trigger it
OSK = on-screen keyboard
RS: expand might execute a click
on a particular element based on attribute; does this belong in
BPG or implementor's guide?
... provide accessible action (depends upon API) -- do we need
something here?
... this is an implementor's guide issue -- for specific
writeable properties, tell browser what to do to control
OSK
... agree? disagree?
<jcraig> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Dec/0103.html
DB: agree - wondering if already
covered essence of that -- activedescendant - if allow to be
modified not through UA interaction, has to be
DOMAttributeModified mutation event, which HTML authors will
need to consider
... issue is about Best Practices
RS: could write text in best practices what to do when attributes change, but think already covered
<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to talk link to the DOMAttributeModified thread
<jcraig> From the email linked above "For example, on behalf of a disabled user, an assistive technology may tell a user agent to update a property in the DOM, but without DOM mutation events, there isn't any way for the UA to notify the web application script that the change has occurred, effectively making some web app controls inoperable."
JC: brought up issue a few
times
... browser to notify application script -- application script
can't change without a call; at least in BPG have to account
for this - need text that says "this is way should be done" --
allows robustness
RS: need to upgrade section -
needs aria- before properties
... want to say 2 things: 1) be able to trigger/follow
attribute modified event whenever change
JC: yes
RS: not generate mutation events
JC: mutation events best way to
track this kind of thing in UA; can check property to see if
changed, but for app to be notified of DOM mutation needs means
of notifying app
... prose i think should be there: "currently this is how to do
without DOM mutation events" -- once all browsers support,
using mutation events will be the best way to make webb
appplications robust, as required by WCAG2
<janina> scribenic janina
<janina> scribe: janina
<scribe> ScribeNick: janina
rich: do people agree? I hear only silence!
<oedipus> [fyi] GJR can't get back onto bridge ("conference is restricted at this time"
<jcraig> ACTION: rich to change section 8 of BPG to address ideal use of mutation events [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/06-pf-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-362 - Change section 8 of BPG to address ideal use of mutation events [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2009-02-13].
Try 0
<oedipus> davidb, try http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/users/my
<oedipus> and http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/changelog
<davidb> oedipus, thanks!
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/resolutions
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/agenda
<davidb> oedipus, i can't add things to mytracker :(
RESOLUTION: close issue 67
<oedipus> davidb, use the nav panel on the tracker page to get your "My Tracker" link
<davidb> oedipus, did that
<oedipus> hmm....
<davidb> oedipus, maybe that error i get is borking it
<oedipus> help at: http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/
<oedipus> davidb, you need to get added to http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users
<oedipus> no, you are listed there
<oedipus> davidb, http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users/42319
agreement that continuing with friday calls is currently unnecessary
rich: james, do you have design pattern for tree example?
jcraig: my action on the spec is completed except for a subsidiary browser impl issue ... will create action to do a design spec ...
<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to create tree design pattern for bpg [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/06-pf-minutes.html#action09]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-363 - Create tree design pattern for bpg [on James Craig - due 2009-02-13].
rich: re moving codetalks examples to w3 space -- where are we?
michael: will take more than a
few weeks -- need time to explore the techs do determine
appropriate setup
... suggestions welcome
rich: talk to shane mccaren
... what about the examples
michael: will be following up on
that today
... can someone take ownership on contacting contributors?
jcraig: seems there's an ok creative commons on the wiki
<Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say that i can work on a RelaxNG schema with shane or anyone else who wants to work on one
michael: could use some help though ..
rich: mine and aarons are ok
<jcraig> hmmm... don't find creative commons license. maybe i was mistaken
michael: david, can you send an email to the codetalks people asking for clearance to w3c?
davidb: no problem, can you send language?
michael: yes
<oedipus> jcraig, on front page "Content is available under Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported"
rich: excellent
<jcraig> great
<davidb> go team!
rich: looks like we're done until monday
<davidb> :D
<oedipus> davidb, michaelc, let me know what i can do to assist
<jcraig> CodeTalks license http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/
<davidb> oedipus, thanks
<davidb> oedipus, can you send me the w3c liason email address?
<davidb> jcraig, thats for the wiki. hopefully it extends to linked svn files
<oedipus> davidb, wai-liaison@w3.org
<davidb> oedipus, ty
<oedipus> archive: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/wai-liaison
<davidb> richardschwerdtfe, keep on rockin
rich: thanking gregory for auto submit!
<oedipus> thank you!